DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Key to "winning"...talent evaluation

tab did say that. Then again, he is still saying it. You took a cheap shot and got called on it.

Let me give you some advice my father gave me when I was a youngster. We all make mistakes. It's best to own it and move on rather than try to deny making that mistake. Almost everyone will forgive those who make mistakes if that person admits it. And most of us become wary of those who can not admit to making mistakes.

You invented that in your own mind because you think everything is about you. In the grand scheme of things, you're not as important as you think you are.

And now you think you're still a teacher trying to give your pupils advice. Let me repeat for the umpteenth time, this is not your classroom.

The return of "everybody, nobody and many". That amoeba that infiltrates every thread, and shape-shifts as the poster sees fit.

Still in denial of the actual point I see. And yes, everybody who was reading the board then knows it's true. No matter their denials now.

I would say "poor." Based on past performance, I don't believe you can give the Browns any other grade than poor when the team has never won the AFC North and has 20 of 23 seasons with a losing record. There's no way the Browns could be considered to be good judges of "draft talent and free agent talent" with a dismal record such as they have produced. Now we're setting on two consecutive losing seasons with a record of team building that is extremely suspect. Berry has swung and missed now two consecutive years - why do we think 2023 will be any different? What has he done as GM to generate wins the last 2 years?

I think the evaluation of Berry is in progress.

I don't think his drafts have been all that great. Some of these guys have not transitioned well into the NFL. Phillips, Elliot, Schwartz. Other guys like JOK and Delpit have been disappointing.


On the other hand, I think he has a done a very good job w/evaluating the players on his roster. He wisely did not extend Baker Mayfield. Imagine where we would be had he thrown stupid money after that guy? He has also given new contracts or extended guys like Chubb, Hunt, Teller, Bitonio, Conklin, Myles, etc. I also give him credit for getting the Watson deal done. There was a lot of competition and the bottom line is that we won that sweepstakes.

This is a big off-season for Berry and this regime. I'm hopeful, but that's not set in stone.

Really, so what you're saying is that while the Browns had a poor record over the last 23 years, their evaluation of talent had nothing to do with that record? According to that philosophy, having Kiser as our QB and his poor evaluation had nothing to do with the Browns record? That the poor evaluation of the 2 Malik's last year and Elliot & Bryan this year at DT didn't have any impact on the Browns posting 2 losing seasons in a row? I'm sorry but IMHO, poor evaluation of talent directly leads to the W/L record of the team.

Talent and coaching being the two most important and major factors along with injuries sustained.

You can look at their injury history as an indicator but even that doesn't predict the future.

That's why I say as much as people would like for this to be an exact science it simply isn't.

Just checking, you are not trying to say that the Browns issue of only having 3 winning seasons in 23 years was hard to predict because of the injuries and had nothing to do with talent evaluation? Or that after spending an entire off-season last year trying to explain that injuries had a huge bearing on the Browns 2021 record was rebuffed and countered by many on this forum as a poor evaluation of a QB being the only reason for the dismal record?

I'm confused by all this excuse talk when in reality, every single team in the NFL has the exact same issues the Browns face every year:

Free agency is mostly about money. There is a track record and pro tape. - Every team has this to deal with, don't they?

The draft is a whole different story. Every team deals with the draft yet the Browns have had more than their share of top 10 picks.

The ability to judge "draft talent and free agent talent" - doesn't every team need this ability?

Some of these guys have not transitioned well into the NFL - surely not only in Cleveland?

The draft is graded differently because there are expectations per round - unique to Cleveland?

There are many factors that affect a team's record. - again, unique to Cleveland?

Talent and coaching being the two most important and major factors along with injuries sustained. - does not every team have this issue?

Many underestimate the factor of injury. - doesn't every team face that possibility every year?

The bottom line is the Browns are not unique or a special circumstance. Every team in the NFL deals with the exact same issues listed above on a yearly basis. How you adjust or for heaven sakes, perform in the first place determines whether you are a good evaluator of talent. IMHO, 3 winning seasons in 23 years gives a pretty clear picture on the Browns history of talent evaluation. The Browns are not unique, they've just done a crappy job in evaluating players and their record proves that point. The Browns are now on a two-year losing streak and overall, the talent evaluation hasn't gotten much better. I mean really, the Browns just finished in last place in the AFC North, and we think the FO has done a good job of evaluating talent?

I'm sorry! Was there a particular timeframe designated in the original post or was it open ended as to player evaluation to the Browns as well as all NFL teams? When the statement starts out with "The most successful franchises that are always a threat to be in the hunt for a playoff birth seem to excel in their ability to judge football talent," was that limited to just the last 2-years or over a period of time decided by a particular poster?


So, who are we evaluating if what you said is true? 4-years ago, maybe 5 - is the cutoff 10? I responded to the question presented to the forum. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers pointing out that the Browns talent evaluators over the last 23 years has been questionable at best. Again, the initial statement says: "The most successful franchises that are always a threat to be in the hunt for a playoff birth seem to excel in their ability to judge football talent." Then asks us to: "Let's discuss everything or anything pertaining to PLAYER EVALUATION pertaining to the Browns as well as all NFL teams." There is nothing in the post specifying a timeframe for the discussion. However, I'm pretty sure when comparing the Browns player evaluation to the most successful franchises - that period of time is much longer than 2-years.

I guess this is just too confusing.

You think the Browns suck.
You think they have sucked for an eternity.
You think Stefanski is the worst coach in the league, takes no accountability or responsibility for his ineptitude, and should be fired.
You think Berry sucks at his job, can't evaluate talent, doesn't understand the salary cap, and should be fired.

Any morsel of hope expressed by another poster is met with some response that combines most or all of the facts above.
Any time another poster questions your endless practice of such, you cry foul, sometimes to the point of calling many of the responses "hatred posts".

Why are you here, honestly? To try to save us from ourselves?

I'm here as a disgruntled Browns fan that's not only tired of losing but disgusted by the constant barrage of excuses (roll the tape) as to why this franchise can't win. I'm a fan of a team that was a consistent contender during my lifetime in the late 50's, the 60's, early 70's, and especially the 80's where the Browns were in the playoffs 5 years in a row and 7 out of 10 years. Since that time (1990) encompassing 29 seasons, I've watched the Browns put together 4 winning seasons and you want to lash out at me because I'm expressing my disappointment in the team?

Now we have two questions presented to us. If we have a talent laden team that has now put two consecutive losing seasons together in a row, then we have a HC issue whether you like that or not.

Or, if the team is not talent laden - who is responsible? Just know that the Browns DT's were replaced after 2020 and replaced again after 2021. Now Berry is in his 4th off-season dealing with the EXACT same problem. Browns Run Defense Has Been Historically Bad. The Cleveland Browns run defense ranks No. 32 in EPA/rush and No. 31 in yards before contact per RB rush. Even worse, no NFL run defense has allowed more EPA/rush since at least 2000. That's a run defense that he changed players on for 2-years now with even worse results than the year before. Combine that with two consecutive losing seasons and I ask you - what has Berry done to make this team a winner?

I apologize for stating the facts and it upsets you. You my friend are no more a fan than I am. We both want the same thing for the team that we follow. The only difference is that I see problems and you want to turn your head. That doesn't make either one of us less a fan than the other. The only real difference is my posts attack the opinions and things I see wrong with the Browns. You and your group attack the poster. Big difference my friend.

"If you are so disgusted start a "Browns Totally Suck thread" and you can complain till the cows come home."

WOW.

You guys do know the Browns have only had 3 winning seasons since the return? & for a majority of that time the Browns have sucked.
Forgive fans for having a pessimistic view every now and then.

Obviously when there is change as often as there has been in Cleveland, something is bad.
Savage, Kokinis, Heckert, Lombardi, Farmer, Brown, Dorsey & Berry. Not one did a good job. Safe to say Savage & Farmer were as bad as it gets.

The Browns are coming off a second consecutive losing season, Everyone in this FO & staff has come up short. Period.
As much as some of you want to say we are moving in the right direction, don't take it personal that many of us are skeptical.

The Browns have had many top 10 picks in the past. Oh the memories/ nightmares.

Berry took himself off the hot seat a bit giving away 3-1st round opportunities. Which means DW must be top 5 this year. If not there will be another regime change upcoming.

Once again. As much as the Browns have improved over the last 4 years, they are still very inconsistent. The Browns still invent ways to lose. Maybe it is not a talent evaluation thing, but it is certainly a culture thing. That culture stems from the top down. I do not see any reason besides hope, to think that the AB & KS are going to turn this organization around. Not because I do not like them personally, or that I hate the Browns. But because they have regressed the last 2 years. Because he gambled on a QB who may never be what he once was. Time will tell, but those of us that have our doubts are not HATERS, but lifelong beaten down fans who want nothing more to believe. The Watson trade is the most Browns trade ever for so many reasons. In 12 months none of this will matter. But come draft time. AB better start making improvements to this team. There are superstars and a solid foundation of good players that has this team poised to make a move. Time is of the essence and if AB doesn't put a playoff team on the field next year, bye-bye.

Nice post and a good summation. You'll most likely be classified as a hater now.

Stop the charade. In all the years you have been posting on here, you never once criticized Baker. You made excuse after excuse for his poor play and selfish, immature behavior. You posts drip w/spite because they got rid of your boy. Meanwhile, no one else wants Baker either. Yet, you refuse to accept this fact and instead of coming to grips w/the Browns doing the right thing, you come on here and post negative post after negative post and then label others "haters" if they don't agree w/you. You are one of the reasons posters have either left the board or stopped posting on this forum.

Hmmm, Mayfield isn't on the Browns anymore. Why do you have to continue to bring him up? You should start a thread "I still hate Baker" to release those haunting inner feelings.

I am not talking about Baker. I am talking about you. Trust me, you--and a few others---are not fooling anyone.

Wow...just...wow.

Bonefish-Dude.

I don't believe we regressed. it is fact. We were in the playoffs in 2021. We had losing records in '22 & '23. What world do you live in?
Did you just start watching the Browns in 2019?


Most of these threads become negative due to the results (which have been for the majority negative).

THIS JUST IN............
THE BROWNS ARE NOT A GOOD FRANCHISE!!!!!!!!!!! Bonefish- Am I wrong????

I love this franchise, but I recognize the ineptness. 1 step forward 8 steps back.

This is a fact. There are many reasons. Player evaluation being one. A numskull owner is clearly another.
The fact that some on here get butt hurt over honest observations or personal opinions is maddening.

"AB better start making improvements to this team.. or what?" Answer- there is no doubt he will be gone.
Bonefish what answer did you expect?

I do not assume they will suck. you among others hear/ read what you want. Anything that differs from your opinion is an abomination.
I think we need to improve significantly. I think KS and AB have been below average at their positions. This is why I have my doubts. I hope I am wrong.

This does not mean that they cannot get better, but this will be there last chance to prove it and I think almost everyone on this board can acknowledge that.

But because you can not see or have forgotten years of the Factory of Sadness, does not mean I or many others have. It is the off-season. The Browns once again failed to make the playoffs. This does not happen because our FO, coaches and players did great. There are major issues up in Cleveland. Some believe DW and all his question marks is the answer. If you do not believe there are questions at QB then I have wasted my time and effort.

By week 6 next season, we will have answers. But at this moment, nobody knows what the future holds. But what I do know, is that the Bengals have a top 3 QB (i think #1). The Steelers have a great coach and last seasons turn around should be all that there needs to be said about that. Baltimore is the only team in our division that we currently are not behind, and we are neck and neck with them.

The Browns finished last in the AFC North this season. That actually happened. This just in....... It has happened a lot.

I and others on here can post whatever we want. I can assure you that we do not post because we hate this team, on the contrary. We post because we expect better. As should you.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I've always considered injuries into the equation. It's only one ingredient in a big picture, not the sole reason. I don't believe the Browns have drafted well over that course of time and especially at the QB position. What I do understand is that there are posters who accept and uphold things like injuries and indiscretions to defend players they do like and refuse to do the same for players they don't like. If that's what you mean.

This is the same BS you label everyone who doesn't follow your agenda with. And for some reason you think everyone is foolish enough to believe you.

What you're doing is what you always do. You tie anyone who is frustrated with the the Browns record regressing since Stefanski's first season as HC must be about Baker. Because you know, fans couldn't possibly be frustrated about the team unless it has to do with Baker, right? At least according to you. Dear God man. Nobody still believes that BS.

I'll sum it up quickly. You are only as good as your record says you are. The Browns finished 3rd in the AFC North in 2021 with an 8-9 record. The Browns finished last in the AFC North with a 7-10 record. That is who they are. Stating these facts makes you a hater according to some on here.

And there it is. If it isn't all Kumbaya and singing praises it's labeled whining. Negative connotations are tied to anything people don't wish to see or here.