DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Key to "winning"...talent evaluation

I use the past as a gauge. I try to learn from mistakes. You must enjoy reruns.

DW has won 1 playoff game. DW was not very good in 6 games in 2023. There are many reasons but the fact is that he was not good.
I expect a professional football team to put the best player on the field. I do not think DW was that. (my opinion, not fact)

I want DW to be good. BUT, if he is not a top 5 QB the Browns gave up too much. No way he is in the conversation of the top 3.


Again why are you mad at opinions?

My expectations after winning a playoff game 3 seasons prior? A-Win more playoff games.
What were your expectations? A- I just hope we play our best. I believe in AB & KS so we will eventually get to a level of respectability.

BONEFISH
DO YOU THINK THE BROWNS ARE A GOOD FRANCHISE?

The answer is a resounding no.

4 years ago the Bengals were a horrible franchise. Things changed quick. It can happen here.
It has not happened yet. and until it does and we win playoff games many of us will continue to discuss the many issues of this franchise.

But continue to stick your head in the sand and because you believe we should all believe the Browns are a great franchise and will definitely win the SB in the next 3 years.

Odds do not back that argument.

I call bs.

Certain posters want to pollute every thread with how terrible we are. It gets tiring. We all know the record. And we don't need to read it in every thread.

It would be different if this was an NFL message board. It would be expected. And it's not like these posters are revealing something profound that points to something we don't see. It's just the same old "What's wrong with you guys, we suck. We suck now, we've sucked for 23 years, we will always suck. Especially if we keep our sucky coach and GM".

I get tired of reading it 35 times a day. Call me crazy.

Who wants to come to a fan site and read about how terrible the team is day after day? Especially since we have more talent and have played better the past few years than any stretch since the 80's.

We don't have trophies and MVPs. We're not a perennial play-off team (yet). All we have to celebrate is "hope". If I felt like I needed an intervention for being a Browns fan, I would just quit... not come to a fan site to read about how horrible the team is, day after day.


The crazy thing is, for all the years we had no hope, and finished 4-12 or 5-11 every year; this place was never like this. It's almost like some humans can't stand the fact that we actually have a puncher's chance of competing.

Bingo!

Yet when you disagree with someone's critique you call it whining. Why is that?


It seems you think evaluation of what has transpired to this point is "trash that has gone over the dam". So then what are we left with? Nothing but prognostications of things that might or could happen in the future? ESP? Are you serious?


And if all you want to hear and talk about is some fantasy of what might happen in the future start your own psychic website. What has transpired in the past is a factual account. Predictions about the future is nothing but guess work.

Just because 90% of what you post is about some rosy future that has not yet come to pass doesn't make those who do not share that view any less valuable in terms of their opinions. You do realize that we've heard that same rosy BS since 1999 and almost every time those predicting that rosy picture have been wrong, correct?

Maybe it's time you ty to understand the well deserved frustration among this fan base and stop trying to make them sound like the bad guys here.

It's almost like some humans can't stand the fact that we actually have a puncher's chance of competing.

Seriously!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fate- Punchers chance????????????

That term sums it up.

Some of you are more angry at posters that spell out true issues. But admit in a non educated backhanded way that we need a punchers chance to be successful. Not a solid game plan with good players that execute, merely a punchers chance.

The Browns were decent last year. They were not good.
Changing the narrative does not change the past. However winning can and will change the narrative.

Dear God, Nobody on here is happy the Browns are bad. But how we see it is our personal view.

Best thing is to quit making excuses and try to hold this franchise to some form of accountability. Being brutally honest is about all we can really do. Just because some do not agree with others takes does not make them less valid.

I could care less if you want to be negative. That is a personal choice. I do have an issue if you expect me to feel the same way you do.

None of us have to root for this team. None of us are indentured servants. We have free will. We can stop following the team if they bring us so much personal misery. Y'all kill me w/this crap of we have to hold them accountable. How do we do that?

The only things we can do is to stop following/supporting the team or b**** and moan. We have no real power.

Again, I have no problem w/you being miserable w/the team, but you don't get to tell me how I should feel. Period!

Who told you how to feel?
I have pointed out examples as to why many posters feel the way they do.

But it keeps getting billed as a hater who is crying over the past.
No, I have seen some of this play out many times and I will not fall for it again.

Once again....... the Browns had a second straight losing season. Most fans expect better with the roster we have.

Vers- You love KS, i get it. You are the most all knowing poster, we all get it.

You are saying the same thing I just said.

"But continue to stick your head in the sand and because you believe we should all believe the Browns are a great franchise and will definitely win the SB in the next 3 years."
This is in reaction to others taking my opinion as something they think I feel is fact. I used facts-2 straight losing seasons to back my argument that we were not a good team last year.

My opinion is that we gave up too much for DW and it will hamper us in the long run, if he does not prove to be a top 5 QB. This is merely my opinion that I understand if you do not agree.

I hope you can see the difference.

Some don't want to hear the truth. They will lambast you this year as being negative, and the next year be leading the charge berating that exact same player or coach. Remember OBJ, just look on that thread - that guy was the most misunderstood poorly treated player in the history of the Cleveland Browns last year - look at the posts about his time here now on that thread. Unless you're a part of that inner circle, anything and everything you post will be vividly challenged. When you are factually correct, it's either what the hell does that have to do with anything or you're polluting the thread. Heaven forbid proving them wrong with facts - only a member of the "Baker Boys" would dare do that. I couldn't agree more with what you said:

Dear God, Nobody on here is happy the Browns are bad. But how we see it is our personal view.

Best thing is to quit making excuses and try to hold this franchise to some form of accountability. Being brutally honest is about all we can really do. Just because some do not agree with others takes does not make them less valid.

I just think it's an understandable outcome from a very frustrated fan base. I think some get lumped into that group when it's not applicable. And this place was actually born out of an NFL message board. And even more people came here by transferring from an NFL message board as it closed. Many NFL message boards have shut down because they were tired of sponsoring something where they couldn't control the narrative. That's what I feel like some of the posters on here are trying to do. Control the narrative.

Don't get me wrong. I do understand what you're saying. I'm certainly not as negative as some posters whose frustration level has reached its peak. But I do understand it. While I understand that we see this differently, I see this place as a sounding board. A place people can vent, hope or discuss anything Browns related.

Believe me, I doubt it's any less frustrating for some posters to hear these pie in the sky predictions of great future glory like some seem to believe. I mean think about it. We hear that same thing every year only to see the Browns flounder. I'm not sure how many times you expect people to go through that same process and not experience some sense of frustration. Some things are rather predictable around here. Both high expectations and frustration of getting a poor product coming our way are a part of that. I think to expect an all or nothing by either extreme is unrealistic.

And let me tell you why I find this at least somewhat perplexing. I can't think of a poster any more negative as it pertains to the Browns than Rish. It was a consistent barrage of negativity to almost everything Browns related on a pretty consistent basis. Yet very little was made of it. Yes, some at times but not that much. Now we see some huge sense of outrage about it when someone else does the exact same thing. I think creating tribes has become systemic in our society and it's showing in almost everything.

It seems the only people trying to control the narrative around here is your ilk.

First, it's a figure of speech, not an "uneducated" view. I know you probably went to Yale, but you may want to clean up your grammar and punctuation before you go around insulting others' intellect.

Second, we play in the toughest division in football... that always seems to have two or three elite QBs... in a conference with elite QBs. Almost every team needs a "puncher's chance", regardless of talent and execution.

Nobody said all the criticisms aren't valid. Many have said they tire of hearing them.

I don't think you speak for "most fans." And again, I won't belittle you for feeling the way you do and I won't make it personal like you just tried to w/the "all knowing" crap.

What I will say is that a few posters like steve hijack thread after thread and force feed their opinions down the throats of others. For example, I made a negative comment about McDaniels benching Carr in Las Vegas. steve attacks me w/some crap of why I don't attack Stefanski and then posted a bunch of numbers. Pit and 888 jump in and say I don't want to talk football when facts are presented. What I said about McDaniels benching Carr had absolutely nothing to do w/Stefanski, but of course, yet another thread was hijacked and the insults started flying. The thread was about Player News. It wasn't about Stefanski, or even the Browns. This kind of thing happens in thread after thread.

One more thing..........you mention accountability. I questioned you on that, but I missed where you explained how we [as fans] hold them accountable? We can stop supporting the team. So, why have you not done that? Or, we can b**** and moan. How has that worked out. Guys like steve and the Baker group have been doing that non-stop. How has that worked out for them? LOL.......y'all are a trip.

Puncher's Chance

You used the term. Clearly you should have thought better.

Yep, nothing personal about any of this...


So this is your description of stating anything that doesn't align with your rosy point of view.


And of course anyone who doesn't exude positivity must be miserable. And who is it that told you how you should feel again?

Vers. You earned the all knowing comment.

As I mentioned, calling out on message boards is about all we can do in terms of accountability.

I am all in as a Browns fan, good or bad. Unfortunately a lot more bad has come our way.

Nobody Hijacks a thread. Although you love to throw that term around.By time it gets to the 2nd page it is just back and forth with very little substance added. but these pages still reach 6/7 pages don't they.

You may believe DW is the answer. That is an opinion. I know DW struggled in his first opportunity. That is a fact.

Last thing..... been said by a few. WE ALL KNOW THE PAST. You all must not care too much about it, as it keeps repeating itself in Cleveland. Losing seasons in 20 out of 23 seasons but how dare I mention that.

I have said it on this board many a time. Winning will cure almost every issue on this message board. I have been a member for almost 6 years. We have only seen 1 trip to the playoffs in that time. I am sure if we can get to the playoffs more than twice every 20 years we may be able to get along significantly better.

Maybe a question to ask is this: why do other teams that suck and have consistently sucked continue to suck? Are there really that many good coaches and front office people available? Perhaps the size of the talent pool combined with a willingness by owners to grab the flavor of the month is a problem? Ownership, first and foremost, plays the most important role in deciding the path of a franchise. Are the Haslam’s up to the task? I do not claim to have the answers but I am just wondering what questions we should be asking.

So history has no bearing and should not be discussed because it isn't pretty. Being frustrated is fine as long as you don't post it. Oh you have certainly dropped a load.

Without a healthy environment and a good culture it's hard to develop talent that can reach their full potential. Those of you who see an organization in harmony, with good values ​​and the right moral principles please elaborate where and who?

Who's the undisputed leader inside Berea? Just start with that simple question.

Yes make dorsey the highest paid Gm
Have off season of ward,chubb,and Mayfield
Trade a 1st and a 4th for 2 1100 yard receiver.
Rinse and repeat.

Not to cause an argument, but that echo chamber goes both ways. Like it's relevant that in 2020 Watson was elite. It's not relevant today because he hasn't shown that elite play in a Browns uniform. Over and over again we have to hear that he's elite, but he was far from it in 2022. Stefanski had a good year in 2020 and I'm so sick and tired of you guys pointing it out day after day but refuse to acknowledge he has been on the short end of the stick for 2 consecutive years with a playoff contending roster. In fact, you guys never want to acknowledge the utter failure of the Browns in 2021 and 2022, every dang thread has to revert back to the COVID year of 2020 that's totally irrelevant when discussing the Browns issues today. Like you, I don't need that echo chamber on every thread either nor do I need to hear about Mayfield any time someone makes a critical opinion about the Browns. He's gone but continues to be that escape hatch whenever you don't have a valid rebuttal. I just think you need to look in the mirror because as much as you despise my opinions, you're doing the exact same thing every day.

No bro, it's a segue to talking about how Stefanski sucks.

Floq...first, I would not agree that the Browns environment or culture within the organization are linked to the Browns ability to judge talent...roster talent, draft talent and/or free agent talent. There is not a record of internal disagreement concerning any of those 3 areas. Also, I see no problem with the culture within the organization.

There may have been some internal issues dealing with the performance of our defensive coordinator, Joe Woods and there were some comments from the players, mainly Myles Garrett, concerning the defensive performance, linked to Woods in 2022. But, I'm not aware of any known internal issues that might have affected the culture or environment of within the organization.

While the Browns GM, Andrew Berry was active signing free agents, the lack of success of those free agents can be linked to injuries. Hard to judge Berry's performance considering the injuries.

Got go for now...I will continue my comments later.

Well mac, guys like steve, Pit, 75, etc say they can post their thoughts wherever they want and not be exposed to "hatred." They tell us they are not hijacking threads and there is actually no such thing. They tell us those things despite multiple posters asking that they stay on topic. The refs allow them to do it. Their posts are not deleted. I guess the rule of the pound is post anything anywhere you like w/no regard for the spirit of the thread because we are all entitled to express our opinions w/out being subjected to hatred.

Maybe one day, folks will realize just how freaking absurd some of you actually are.

It’s start at the top. Without an undisputed leader the leadership will be weak by design.

In a healthy organization the HC is the undisputed leader when it comes to result related decisions. That includes having the last say in drafts and FA. The Browns has a weird organization structure where a guy living in south of California is a huge part of the decision making. That construction itself it’s self destructive because a daily physical presence is a must if you want to build a professional relationship with total trust and loyalty. Then you have a GM who’s everything and nothing. From my perspective he has a small man’s syndrome and that’s why there have been so many unnecessary conflicts between high profile players and the Browns.

I’m not blind and after almost 30 years in c-level management I’m quite certain I can see the difference between an average and an excellent leader. Andrew Berry have a Harvard graduate but he’s not blessed with the natural leader characteristics you often see with successful managers. Typical beta guy who talk more then he leads.

Yet there's no thread hijacker's more prevalent than those in your crew. The big difference is we dispute opinions while you attack individual posters. You need go no further than this thread where you are actually calling out names within your post to attack with your hatred. If the refs are being lenient in any way, it's their leniency toward the individuals that directly attack other forum posters for expressing their opinion that's different from yours. Read the posts, see which posters a being attacked by name and who the attackers are doing such a thing. The only hijacking going on in this forum is the direct attacks on individuals that differ from your agenda with a differing opinion.

Cool story.

Posted this in a thread that got moved or deleted.

(( Guessing/Assuming that this thread (Title was: Why the Browns Suck) should have been in purple? A response or some angst because of some of the negativity? I see posts with people frustrated that other posters "constantly" bring Stefanski into threads etc? Or that posters have an agenda to simply bad mouth Stefanski.))

It reminds me more than a little bit about when we had a QB that some posters thought was the root cause of the team's woes. . . we talked about the QB in depth, but then when we talked about how bad our WR core was - the QB was blamed by those posters who thought he sucked really badly . . . When we talked about the OL - the QB was blamed by those same posters because he held the ball too long or created his own pressure ... When we talked about the defense - the QB was mentioned and partially blamed for not sustaining drives and creating turnovers forcing the defense to play without much rest. Hell - to talk about the banged up the banged up OL or how bad some of the receivers were simply got you labeled by some as making excuses for the QB. There was much vitriol about said QB in "nearly every thread".

Obviously there are no absolutes and there is no "all" or "never" - but it does seem to me that some of the posters who made everything about that QB in every thread and who labeled other posters then are the ones now complaining loudest about others with differing opinions about the direction of the team and when Stefanski gets talked about so much and so frequently now.

One last point - debating and expressing opinions on any subject, even if you are constantly rebutting others opinions, never means they are trying to silence posters or silence an opinion - nor does it stop others from expressing contrary opinions as often as they like.

He's moved on...

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Floq...Who is the undisputed leader in Berea...Jimmy Haslam, the owner. IMO, since buying the Browns JH has taken control of the franchise and is involved in nearly every major decision. To what degree JH is involved seems to be a well kept secret. Maybe the best look into how JH's ownership has affected the franchise..?... I'm simply going to post the following story that includes some rare admissions by the Browns owners. Hopefully this story will clarify some of the questions we have.


Haslams say Steelers experience didn't prep them to own Browns: 'You don't know anything'

Nate Ulrich
Akron Beacon Journal
Published 5:24 p.m. ET March 31, 2022 | Updated 8:23 p.m. ET March 31, 2022




PALM BEACH, Fla. — When Jimmy and Dee Haslam bought the Browns in 2012, their previous roles as minority owners of the Pittsburgh Steelers instilled confidence in much of Cleveland's fan base.

Oops! Those black-and-gold ties turned out to be fool's gold.

While the Haslams reflected Tuesday on their upcoming 10-year anniversary as Browns owners, they explained purchasing a stake in the AFC North rival Steelers in 2008 didn't prepare them whatsoever to run an NFL franchise.

“No, no. You don't know anything,” Dee Haslam said during the NFL owners meetings at The Breakers Palm Beach resort.

The Haslams actually described themselves as being lulled into a false sense of security because of their Steelers experience, which included Pittsburgh winning the Super Bowl to end the 2008 season.

“You go, 'That's a model franchise. Just do it like them,'” Jimmy Haslam said. “But you're not the ones making the decisions, and the people were already in place. [General Manager] Kevin Colbert was already there. [Coach] Mike Tomlin was already there. [The late Dan] Rooney was still there. So you had he and Art [Rooney II leading the organization].

“It was smooth running. [Quarterback Ben] Roethlisberger was a young man. We joined in '07. [Roethlisberger] was just coming into his own. With [Hall of Fame safety Troy] Polamalu, I mean, you go, 'This doesn't seem very hard.'

“We get Super Bowl rings before we even pay for our share. Listen, in business, the hiring cycle is different. There are usually people to train you. The NFL is great, but you've all heard us say this: There's no primer.”


Jimmy Haslam laments lack of wins Cleveland Browns have compiled under his ownership with wife, Dee


The Haslams struck a deal to buy the Browns for about $1 billion in August 2012, and NFL owners unanimously approved their purchase a few months later in October.

The Browns have gone 52-108-1 in their 10 seasons during the Haslam era. They have earned one winning record and one playoff berth during the span (when they went 11-5 in 2020 and defeated the Steelers in the wild-card round). They finished in the fourth and final spot in the division from 2012-17 and placed third from 2018-21.

“We did a lousy job at first,” Jimmy Haslam said. “I mean, let's just face it. It's probably fair to say we didn't know what we were doing. In some ways, I go, '10 years, we haven't won very many games.' So I look at it that way.”

Of course, the team's historically poor stretch of 1-31 in the 2016-17 seasons is part of the Haslams' legacy.

“It's been really hard,” Dee Haslam said. “I mean, it's been a hard 10 years.”

“Has it been hard, way harder than we thought, a lot of bumps in the road?” Jimmy Haslam added. “Yeah, but, I mean, it's a privilege to be part of the NFL and own a team, particularly in a community like Cleveland. So we feel blessed and fortunate and excited about going forward.”

Controversial Deshaun Watson trade 'the most consequential' decision of the Haslam era in Cleveland
So what's next for the Browns under the Haslams?

They believe the team, coming off an 8-9 season, is positioned to contend after the organization's controversial March 18 trade with the Houston Texans for quarterback Deshaun Watson. Watson is an elite talent, but his off-field baggage and the Browns' massive investment in him comes with risks.

Despite two dozen women accusing Watson of sexual misconduct or sexual assault during massage appointments, the Browns traded six draft picks, including three in the first round, to the Texans and gave the three-time Pro Bowl selection a five-year contract worth a record-setting $230 million fully guaranteed.

Watson has denied all wrongdoing, and two Texas grand juries declined on March 11 and March 24 to indict him on 10 criminal complaints. He faces 22 active civil lawsuits. Even without being charged, Watson could still be suspended under the NFL's personal conduct policy.

“Of the decisions we've made with the Browns, this was the most consequential one,” Jimmy Haslam said, “and we spent more time working on it than anything else.”


Jimmy and Dee Haslam have made many changes since buying Cleveland Browns nearly 10 years ago


The Haslams acknowledge they have cycled through coaches and front-office executives at a stunning rate. They have fired two head coaches — Rob Chudzinski (2013) and Freddie Kitchens (2019) — after just one season on the job.

Kevin Stefanski is the sixth full-time head coach and General Manager Andrew Berry is the sixth head of football operations to work for the Haslams in Cleveland.

Stefanski and Berry will become the first head coach-GM tandem to enter a third season intact under the Haslams.

“That says a lot, doesn't it?” Jimmy Haslam said. “It's everything.”

The Haslams signed Chief Strategy Officer Paul DePodesta to a five-year contract extension in 2020, the same year Stefanski and Berry were hired and received deals of the same length.

“We just didn't do a good job [hiring] here initially,” Jimmy Haslam said, “but I think we think with Kevin and Andrew and with Paul, we've got a really good group in place.

“They work great together. It makes it way easier on us.”

Added Dee Haslam: "I think that's been fun. We're having fun."


Jimmy Haslam has high expectations for next season, but knows success in 'stacked' AFC isn't guaranteed


Yet so much hinges on the sport's most important position. Before the Watson deal, the last major splash the Browns made at quarterback was drafting Baker Mayfield first overall in 2018.


“We’re a better football team now than we were then,” Jimmy Haslam said. “Let me say we’re a better organization, OK? Andrew and Kevin help that tremendously — and our staff — so I feel better organizationally about where we are, and I feel better about the team.

“I feel better about the quarterback, but we’ve still got to produce. The AFC is stacked, and you all know how tough our division is.

“This is a challenging schedule, but I think directionally we’re heading in the right place, and we would say we feel better than we did in ’18.”

Cleveland Browns will likely look much different:With Deshaun Watson aboard, Kevin Stefanski doesn't rule out wholesale changes to offense

Nate Ulrich can be reached at nulrich@thebeaconjournal.com.
[url=https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/sports/pro/browns/2022/03/31/browns-news-steelers-minority-ownership-didnt-prepare-jimmy-dee-haslam-for-cleveland-nfl-franchise/7236272001/][/url]