DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What Will It Take?

There are many factors that enter into answering your question. One thing you didn't mention are very productive drafts. Now I know I'm going to take some grief for this one but I don't care. But if you look at the chiefs as a team, you may wish to give this a read....

How the rookie class helped spur the Chiefs to another Super Bowl appearance

It’s not all about Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid.

https://www.sbnation.com/2023/2/11/...e-draft-class-super-bowl-2023-appearance

An ability to draft big contributors in the mid to late rounds of the draft as well as your early picks gives you the flexibility to spend your resources to fill other much needed holes. The more players you can keep on your roster on these much cheaper rookie contracts the more ability it gives you to build a stronger team.

The thing about that is though it's very hard to predict who is going to be able to do that and who will not. It seems like a very rare talent.

Before having any conversation about bring as good as the Chiefs
Or eclipsing them 1st the Browns have to win the AFC North. Cause overcoming
The Chiefs means beating them in the AFC Championship Game.

The Chiefs have set a standard of excellence since the Reid Mahomes
Combo has arrived. The Browns simply do not have that with their franchise
Beating the Steelers in a playoff game is the benchmark around here.
The Browns and Chiefs cultures are Miles apart

The Chiefs have alot of continuity in their coaching staffs
Bienenemy has been at Reids side for what 5 6 years now
Spagnulo has been running that defense for just as long

The Chiefs expect to win. The Browns hope to win. It's a mindset.
Heck Mahomes overcame a high sprain to overcome the Bengals
And made plays.
Baker Mayfield had a lesser injury and all that came out of that
Was excuses.

It's alot more than just the talent you have at hand
It starts with culture and mindset

We need DW to return to elite-level QB play, Schwartz to get this D moving in the right direction, a couple of second and third-year guys surprising us, to avoid catastrophic injuries, and get some luck on our side.

You said Chiefs number one offense.

the Browns have not been serious about having a number one offense in the NFL since Nineteen Ninety/ eighty nine/ at most recent at best.
Oh, maybe they tried.

We had all the pieces before the DW trade and couldn't even sniff it. I hope DW is the fix you think he is. But I don't think we belong in the conversation of competing with the Chiefs' SB performance yet. Maybe we should start with what will it take to win the division regularly. Did you even watch Mahomes? He's not human. I'd take Maholmes and Kelce over any two players we have. Probably, any three. You can't even coach what they have.

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2023/02/13/browns-nick-chubb-super-bowl-winner-running-backs/

Super Bowl champs do not have high paid running backs
Jacob Roach
Mon, February 13, 2023 at 2:05 PM EST

Another NFL season is in the books with the Kansas City Chiefs winning the Super Bowl. Looking back on the NFL champions since 2009 no champion has had a leading rusher that made more than $2 million as their base salary. The Cleveland Browns, however, have one of the highest-paid running backs on the roster in Nick Chubb.

Another example of the change in offense in the modern NFL as it has become a passing league. It would be safe to assume that teams spending significant dollars on the run game are not ultimately able to take home the Lombardi.

With that information in mind, it’s safe to wonder if keeping Chubb on his current deal is best for the Browns. Chubb is a great player but could the money be spent on the passing game and get the team a better result? Ultimately, I do not want to move on from Chubb, but the information does suggest paying running backs is not winning championships anymore.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/recent-super-bowl-champs-not-190554754.html

We need watson to prove that he’s a FQB and more playmakers/depth along the DL. Those two things MUST happen.

We then need a more dynamic WR opposite Cooper and better versatility at the LB corp.

Interesting read. Thanks.

Watson has to be elite. Everything starts and stops with Watson being elite. Anything short of that and the Browns are an also-ran.

Side note, I do believe this is Chubb's last year as a Brown. The FO will want to reallocate that money to the WR position. Especially, considering Cooper will be turning 30 heading into the 2024 season.

This is the best time to trade Chubb. He is still healthy
If the Chiefs can trade Tyrek Hill....then the Browns can
Shop around Chubb at the very least

????

We have nothing but speculation about Watson's performance at this point. With a question or two left on the O-line, there is nothing guaranteed there.

How much will teams game plan for Ford or Johnson?

Jmho

If you have the best perceived oline in the NFL ....does it matter
Who runs the football? Chubb is a immense talent
But would rather have a 1300 yd RB or a 1300 yd WR in your
Offense?

I agree that we need for Watson to be elite. He has been before and I don't see any reason why he won't return to form.

I also agree about Chubb. The dead cap is almost $11 million for 2023 and it's down to $4 million in 2024. I don't think we want his cap hit to reach $16.2 million in 2024. We should get one more great year from Nick.

I think it's really hard to get fair value when you trade RBs. BOB isn't in Houston any longer.

I don't know the thought process of the Browns regarding Chubb, but I think the article was pointing out that the big dollar contracts for the RB is not proving to be smart cap management. The top 3 rushers during the regular season all failed to make the playoffs or their team finishing with a .500 record or better. So, would Chubb's 14.8M cap hit be used in other areas to make the team better?

The Giants and the Eagles are looking at situations where their RB's are going to be asking for that 16M-18M per year contracts. It'll be interesting to see what the Giants do since they refused the 5th year option on Barkley. Sanders 1.7M pay in 2022 will jump to a request for 16M-18M in 2023 - him only having 7 carries in the SB and the use of the backups more (10 carries) might have been the writing on the wall. Add in the rumor that the Cowboys are seriously considering parting with Elliott's 16.7M contract and it appears to be a trend more than just a one off.

Will the Browns keep Chubb and go against the trend when they have so many other needs? The ball is in Berry's court, but I'll bet analytics will have a play in the decision-making process - one way or another.

2022 NFL Regular Season rushing Leaders

Josh Jacobs - 1653 - 6 Team Wins
Derrick Henry - 1538 - 7 Team Wins
Nick Chubb - 1525 - 7 Team Wins
Saquon Barkley - 1312 - 9 Team Wins + Playoffs - Free Agent
Miles Sanders - 1269 - 14 Team Wins + Playoffs + Super Bowl - Free Agent (only had 7 carries in the SB)

Look, I love having Chubb on the roster. I think he was a great pick and just the kind of player you want to see wearing a Browns uniform. The old adage used to be you use the run to open up the pass. But in today's NFL if you have a very good QB teams also use the pass to open up the run. It's all about dollars and cents. I understand your argument and to a degree it makes sense. But can you tell me any NFL team with a great QB who pays a RB anything close to what the Browns will be paying Chubb? The Bills paid Devin Singletary 2.5 million. The Chiefs paid Isiah Pacheco 705k in 2022 and Edwards-Helaire 1.59 million. The Bengals did pay Joe Mixon a boatload but as we can see most teams with great QB's put their biggest play maker investments in providing weapons in the passing game and use the pass to open up the run so they don't need to pay RB's huge money to be successful at running the ball. In the case of the Chiefs their most used RB, Pacheco, is as much of a pass threat as he is a RB and cost them less than 1 mil.

I certainly hope you are right and the Browns keep Chubb. But it's hard for me to fathom that the best teams in the league do it differently than that with better results in their record and success each season and are doing it wrong.

I think it all gets back to what I referred to earlier. In order to pay your stars you need as many players on rookie deals and cheap contracts being big contributors. It seems as if some of the most successful teams in the NFL are managing to do that at the RB position.

I understand the development aspect of it. Certain positions on the roster
Need time to develop. Olineman ,QB...but let's face it
The Browns have flat out sucked drafting WRs since 1999.
And Andrew Berry has continued that tradition
At some point you have draft WRs that don't need training wheels
They are ready to produce ...Week 1. Rookie year
Anthony Schwartz did nothing at Auburn
David Bell was not explosive at Purdue. DPJ has developed
But it took him to 3 years to put up average production
The Browns need impact WRs ...not developmental.

I don't think that's true at all. I think most all Browns fans understand how great Chubb is. I think where the flawed thinking comes in is that you need a Nick Chubb to have a very productive running game.

A lot of that hinges on who you have at QB.

Mac, I don't believe anyone is slighting Chubb's skill set but the suggested Chubb movement was written in an article and not an opinion of a forum member. Now that it has been mentioned, there's nothing wrong with taking a look at the options and what is the Browns 2, 3, or 4-year plan. If Chubb is not going to be a part of that plan, then it's time to take a look. I don't want to lose Chubb any more than anyone else but if the Browns are going to be building a consistent winner - then decisions have to be made about players going forward. Cap, position needs, age, and of course performance will all have bearing going forward since the Browns are now in that top spot with QB pay (aka, like KC trading Hill or GB trading Adams). Sometimes, you have to make unpopular choices.

Except that Chubb's cap cost is 14.85M in 2023 and 16.2M in 2024. As I've been trying to say, when you kick the can down the road, eventually you have to account for that moved cap. Like I said, I don't believe Chubb is going anywhere but it doesn't hurt to look.

I certainly think they'll keep him in 2023. He will actually carry a cap hit of 14,850,000. But he carries a dead cap hit of 10,850,000. So there's only a 4 mil difference. 2024 on the other hand is a completely different matter. So you don't think that's how "the Chiefs or others do it" but each team is different? I think having a QB like watson combined with paying Chubb that kind of money would make the Browns "the only team to do it."

It's annoying when people just make crap up w/out any proof that what they are saying is true.

I don't know if our WR coach is a good teacher or not, butCooper looked good to my eyes. DPJ has gone from being a 6th or 7th round pick to a productive player. Please stop making crap up out of thin air.

Don't try to confuse others as to what went down. I said I don't know if he is a good teacher or not and the point is neither do you. The difference is that you said this:


You don't know if that is true or not, but you spoke like you did know. I get that you want to trash the Browns on every post you make, but please stop telling lies to further your crusade.