DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Jim Schwartz and the Defense

And the one of you sees it differently.

Yep. With the only exceptions being:

You have the #1 pick in the draft.
You are prepared to way overdraft someone.
You are willing to give away more assets than the player would be worth to others.
You are willing to overpay player.

And you'll usually have to do two or more of these things to get it done.

Maybe then you can understand why I found this to be quite confusing and asked for an explanation.....



That's certainly true. I'm not the one trying to use a good guy verses bad guy scenario here. As with all NFL GM's there will be hits and misses. There will be certain positions they will do well on and certain positions and players they won't do so well on. It's just the nature of the beast.


And you have every right to that opinion. I also believe he could have done better with better talent on the interior of the DL and LB'er groups. For me it's a combination of both and not the entire fault of one or the other.

How many times are you going to bring up Schwartz when we are talking about Joe Woods and the defense.


Now our DT's since 2020 Bryan 291 pounds
Elliot 303 pounds
Stills 295 pounds
Togiai 296 pounds
Winfrey 292 pounds
Day 294 pounds
McDowell 295 pounds
Oganjobi 305 pounds
Richardson 290 pounds

Behind them we had

JOK 220 pounds soaking wet
Fields 220 pounds
Davis 224 pounds
Smith 225 pounds
Harvey 5'11 230 pounds
Walker 235
Jones 227
Takitaki 238 pounds


Smaller faster guys. Now if you want to blast the front office for getting the type of players Woods wanted and those 220 pound LB's and 290 pound DT's could not stop 330 pound O-lineman from running all over them then the fault is with Woods system, not the front office. It doesn;t mean we had bad players it means the guys were to lite to stop the running game. Now if you want to blast the front office for things they deserve being blasted for go right ahead you won't hear a peep from me, but to blame them for this ... nope I'm not buying that even if it's buy one for a penny and get ten free.

Got work to do buddy. If you reply I will get back with you tomorrow

The 4-3 defense uses smaller, faster interior DL players so not having huge bodies in there isn't that unusual. Much like yourself I'm not a big fan of not having some fatties up front but it's not uncommon.

330 pound O linemen? In today's NFL, sure you still have some of those, but the trend is to use the ZBS. As such the OL is usually lighter than than your stated 330#. The Browns as we both know run that same scheme...

Jack Conklin 308#
Joel Bitonio 320#
Wyatt Teller 315#
Jedrick Wills 307#

Heck the Browns have had Chris Hubbard as the primary backup at the OT position for some time and he is 295#.

You see, there are two main types of OL's in the NFL. The mauling, straight ahead type and the ZBS type. So no matter how you slice it, there is no one size fits all for an interior DL that will fit to be great against both. You need faster, more athletic types to defend against a ZBS and a more physical interior DL to defend against a mauling type of OL front. Obviously Woods defensive interior was designed to be better at the ZBS. Having those large bodies up front will make you weak against a ZBS because that speed and athleticism is lost.

And no, I certainly think that getting both your OC and DC the type of players they need to run their scheme a good thing. If you aren't going to do that why would you hire them in the first place? That certainly isn't the point I have been making all along is that no matter "the type of player" you get to fill a position, that player has to be talented enough to do the job. My contention has been that while the players Woods was given certainly fills "the type of players" he wanted, The talent level of those players as it pertains to the LB'ers and interior of the DL were sorely lacking.

I believe Woods could have done better with the talent he was given but i also think it would have been a huge help if he had been given better talent.

Andrew Berry’s Plan: Making defense faster while not crushing salary cap – Terry’s Talkin’ Browns

Updated: Mar. 21, 2021, 5:55 a.m.

LINK

ANDREW BERRY’S PLAN

No doubt, the Browns GM and his staff have far more revealing numbers that these, but here are some basics about the defense against the pass:

1. The Browns entered free agency knowing their pass defense was awful a year ago. The raw stats had them 22nd in passing yards allowed.

2. As ESPN Stats & Info reported: “The Browns allowed 15 touchdown on passes thrown 15-plus yards downfield last season, which was tied with the Cowboys for most in the league.”

3. That matched the eye test: The Browns gave up a lot of big passing plays. I checked the stats and discovered they ranked 24th out of 32 teams in giving up passes of at least 40 yards in 2020. They also ranked 24th in TD passes allowed.

4. And this from ESPN: “Browns safeties allowed 12 passing touchdowns last year when they were the nearest defender in coverage, most in the NFL. John Johnson’s 61 targets as the nearest defender in coverage was 3rd-most this season among safeties. And he allowed only one touchdown.”


5. Those numbers explain why the Browns put a bigger emphasis on their secondary than the defensive line.

CLICK LINK TO READ MORE

It seems your contention is the scheme was fine - the type of players Woods wanted was fine... and the failure was Berry/FO not getting stud muffins to fill the positions and that the reason Woods schemed failed is the players ability (Berry's fault) not that the scheme was flawed.

I disagree. I think most disagree. Maybe Woods named specific players? IDK - but getting smaller faster players per his agenda/scheme and having the scheme fail (how I see it) is not on Berry. jmo.

1st off you were talking about DT, not DE so yes the OT's are not as big, but it's the interior offensive lineman that do most of the blocking on DT, Joel 320 pounds, and Teller 315 pounds, and Pocic 320 pounds at center. Put them up against two 290 pound DT's and watch them run all over them all day long. Plus the average DT in the nfl weighs in at 310 pounds. Also look at the players we added this year

Hill 310 pounds
Hurst 290 pounds
IKA 358 pounds
Tomlinson 325 pounds


Schwartz wanted more beef in the middle of the Defense. Woods wanted less. That's as plain as the nose on your face. You already saw the results with Woods in charge. now we can watch and see how this all works with Schwartz.



LOL That could be said about every single Coach who ever had a job in the NFL, collage, high school, Jr High, and Little league.

Stud muffins? No, just average to above average talent at those positions.

Let's see how they perform against the ZBS before we start tooting any horns here. And I see you still overstated that 330# claim. It's odd how you totally ignored most of what I posted in your response.

I do understand how it's easier to blame Woods for the poor talent he was given on the interior of the DL than admit that was a major contributing factor to the product on the field.

I used 330 pounds as an example. Did I look it up? NOPE if you want exact the average weight of NFL guards was 315.88 pounds last year.
The average weight of centers was 306.2 pounds.
Average weight of DT's last year 308.7 pounds
Average weight of LB's in the nfl 240.7 pounds

How does that stack up against the Browns?



Cleveland DT's last season averaged 296 pounds with 4 of six of the players in the lower 290's one player at 300 pounds, and one at 303 pounds.
Our Linebackers? 228 pounds on average with no starters of backups over 238 pounds.

As for tooting any horns I already said "Schwartz wanted more beef in the middle of the Defense. Woods wanted less. That's as plain as the nose on your face. You already saw the results with Woods in charge. now we can watch and see how this all works with Schwartz.

Now compare tat to a good defense like the Eagles were 9 of the 11 d-lineman on their roster last season were over 300 pounds with an average weight of 313 pounds.
Linebackers averaged 238 pounds with 4 linebackers over 240 pounds.

By using the average weights you are getting a mix of exactly what I described. Weights combined from both ZBS schemed OL's combined with straight ahead mauling OL's which are comprised of heavier players.

The same goes for interior DL players. You're using the average weights which are comprised of the more physical, bigger interior DL's built mainly to play against those mauling, larger sized OL's and the smaller, more agile DL interiors comprised of players to defend mainly against ZBS OL's.

I saw the results of woods in charge given the interior DL players he was given to work with. You keep leaving out that very important part.

The best way I can think of to maybe make you better understand what I'm talking about is what Mike Shanahan did in the 1990's. If you recall he seemed to be able to "insert RB here" and get great run production from all of them no matter who it was. The reason for that was something rather new at the time. The ZBS. His OL players were so light compared to typical OL players at the time it sounded crazy to think it would work.

As such they were very successful blocking against those slow, fat guys who lacked he agility and athleticism to keep up with those shifts by his OL. The answer to counter that was to get quicker, lighter players on the interior of your DL who could do that. They made those fat guys look clumsy trying to block those shifts that require the speed, footwork and agility to do so.

So yes, if you combine the smaller, faster DL's with the big plodding DL's all across the league, you come up with the average weights you have posted.

It all depends on the type of team that you are going up against.

The light and fast works well against a ZBS and for pass happy teams, but wears out when the opponent plays smash mouth football.

You have a bunch of players, and you need players that can function in heavy packages as well as light and fast.

The Browns were very vulnerable against a smash mouth team last year.

Don't care about Miles and DPOY- real bottomline is Ws vs Ds- I'm very happy with D changes in style and personnel- now get it done on the field when it counts. The time is now---not wait till next year.

The book is out on Myles, chip block him with a RB.
If the play goes to the outside on Myles' side just let Myles upfield into the backfield, and throw or run around him to his side for a gain.
no?

I think teams will still double team Myles and make another rusher try to get pressure on their @uarterback.

Garrett never holds back and does not rush, he can always be counted on to rush so you always know where he is.
no?

Hopefully JS will not waste him dropping him into coverage. Teach him several moves rushing. I believe, that as good as MG is and as much as I love his game, there is untapped upside remaining. I hope JS can find it and develop it.

A key guy on D is Hurst IMO. The guy is pretty dad gum good. If he can stay on the field, which has been , we have a good shot at being very good on D.

I share those concerns and feelings. A vital job we have after re-tooling with some hopefully nifty pickups and embracing an aggressive D and coach, and help for the O,is what I will call triage. Looking at how we lost, why we lost, and did so in the same way over and over, is to stop the bleeding first, then decide what should be saved. Prioritize corrections and teaching, but stop repeated losses due to personnel failures and lack of adjustments. Upgrade personnel. Get fiercely hungry to win. I think defensive play is a barometer to measure both sides of the ball and their motivation. We have enough now to do that. I hope Ski shows more improvement. So does Haslam, I suspect.

Excellent point this season come down to this.
DESHAUN has never beaten Burrows or Lamar if that happens
Again season over.

As I have said over and over. Woods defense system caused the defense to play slow. To much thinking and not enough reacting, or forcing the offense to react.

Yes you did. I remember.

If we can control the run, I expect the Browns to have a top 10 defense.

If we control the run it'll be the first time in Lord knows when.

Sometimes I get disinterested in posting but I usually read the board regularly. I haven't seen many posts that describe details of Swartz's scheme. But there is information out there that should provide insight. Some of these articles are long so I won't post them in their entirety. I'll just give the link. They are really worth reading.

One thing I will say is that Swartz's scheme is based on pressuring the QB not stopping the run. This can't be disputed because it comes directly from his own mouth. Run stopping is a by-product of his scheme, not the aim.
Jim Swartz doesn't care about being #1 aginst the run.

Swartz does put a priority on the D line at the core of his scheme.
Getting pressure without blitzing

More D line emphasis with D5 front. He will mix in a 5-D linemen front in certain situations.
Saw it in Philly, it's coming to the Browns.

Expect a lot more man and a lot less zone coverage. ( I think this is sprinkled into several of the above articles.)

IMO, the LBs we have now will be fine in this defense.

To execute this properly we're going to need 9-10 DL

We have a top-notch DC in JS and also a HC in waiting if things don't work out with KS, although I hope they do.

Wasn't Schwartz a 'Slappy,' from the good ol' days?

Thanks for that.

Living in Tennesse, I have watched the Titans since they moved from Houston. If I have a 2nd team, the Titans would probably be the team between them, the Falcons, and Bucs.

I was always impressed with the Titans D when Schwartz was the coordinator. It didn't hurt that he had BIG Albert Haynesworth, but it was always about pressuring the QB. That was the first step for his linemen, then adjust to the run.

A guy like Haynesworth was always going to be a top player, but I do think a DC like Schwartz brought out the best in his linemen. I think he will do that here as well.

I never really thought about it until reading about it some time later, but his wide DE sets almost automatically set the edge on run plays starting on wide splits and pinching in towards the projected QB depth in the pocket. It's hard for a back to get around them without dipping 4-5 yards deeper in to the backfield to get around the DE's. They usually have to try to cut inside the DE right in towards the LB's. This makes the LB's job much easier knowing where the back is going to go without dipping deep, more or less making a 3rd and 3 situation in to a 3rd and 8 run.

PFF 2023 Cornerback Ranking


https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-corner...eI8rWfcLnDhb5VhrcXmG4PfALK6DK-j2m2Vm33gE

It certainly can. What with all of the flowers and the smell of cheap perfume.

I think you can now actually rent a sense of humor from your local Home Depot or Sunbelt Rental location. Lighten up man.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...al-more-about-belichick-than-the-browns/

Turns out, I was right.

Slappies were Belichick's staff. They lived @ the facility, and did anything and everything they were asked.

https://www.espn.com/blog/nfcnorth/...tocked%20at%20all%20times.,-by%20Taboola

I found the above a funny story.