Not sure if we are done adding defensive free agents?

We may still sign Al Woods or someone else.

We have added guys already that should improve overall play. Tomlinson and Thornhill are immediate starters. We resigned Walker and Taki.
We added some depth at DT in Hurst and Hill. Ogbo is a rotation piece at DE.

The big addition is Jim Schwartz.

A defense must have a "playing personality." Something I never saw with Joe Woods. The lose to the Falcons in particular was horrific. The defense was humiliated. After that game I was over Joe Woods.

Schwartz brings a world of defensive experience. He was with Belichick and Saban. He is first a teacher. He knows what he wants to see from each defensive unit. He understands how each unit supports the others. Schwartz leans heavily on his front four. He wants pressure on the qb but he knows he must have interior gap integrity to stop the run.

When that is accomplished the lb's and back end are supported. They are left to make plays on the ball.

Last year I got sick of seeing OG's get into the second level. We were trying to cover the field with lots of nickle and dime. But the front four was failing.

When the season ended it was clear a new direction was needed.

I am expecting to see a defense play together. I do not expect to see missed assignments.

An improved defense alone should make a big difference for the Browns. If the defense can give us two more wins then the offense only needs to add two more wins.

I'll start by saying that I agree with you...as usual. My thoughts on the matter:

I have been - and continue to be - very critical of Myles and Denzel. I think they BOTH could/should be much more effective and their impact noticeable. My hope is that a fiery, aggressive guy like Schwartz (who is not like Greg Williams) is exactly what our defense needs - and in particular those ^^ two guys.

I hated watching Woods' defense..hated it. The lack of communication (apparent) was astonishing. I don't know whose fault it was and I don't care. But it was seemingly always there. However, once those memories fade, a fair argument will surely come up wondering how Woods' defense would have performed with the D-Line we'll have in '23 vs the D-Line we had in '22 & '21. I will not be surprised if the only DT holdover from '22 is Winfrey...a 4th Rd pick who got off to a bad, bad start. Not to mention FINALLY having a true FS starter on the roster. It was what it was.

I'm hoping our defense takes on Schwartz' demeanor and attitude. He just might be the perfect compliment to Ski - who BTW I think is waaaaaay too passive on the sidelines during the games - particularly when it comes to 'working' the refs. He's too 'nice'...just like a whole bunch of our guys. You can be 'nice' without being soft.

Defense sets the tone...the offense feeds off that tone. We've seen it many times...just usually on the other end of the field.

The Browns defense over the last few years has been
Very passive and lacking physicality. Even worse in the late
Stages of a game, players on the D were mentally checked out.
But like anything else there has to be results on the field.
Too many times in the past everytime the Browns
Would get a new DC the Homer train would get a full head
Of steam and act like the Browns got the best DC and oooh
Watch out the rest of the AFC North.
Then at the end of the year the Browns defense is ranked 29th.
Schwartz needs to trust his players and the players have to
Trust Schwartz.

I think we are in pretty good shape on D. I do think there is a good chance we will sign another defensive play, though it might be after the June 1 cuts open up some extra money.

Anybody not signed by June 1 might be willing to cut a deal just to get a job. We might be able to get a decent player on the cheap. You have to remember a lot of vets don't want to sign early in order to avoid mandatory mini camps etc., so it isn't just scrubs sitting there.

Being objective about the defense last season start with the Jets game. A collapse on defense and ST.

Then look at each defeat and how the defense contributed to the loss.

We lost 10 games. One would have to believe that if Schwartz and the added players makes a difference. We could with better play improve to 10 wins.

I do not think that is above reason.

We all have expectations on what DW will do. However, just looking at last seasons defensive stats. If we can improve in the areas where we failed.
This will be a much better team.

I pretty much agree with your posts. There is one caveat' however. I agree with you that Schwartz relies heavily on the front four and the interior of the DL. Where we may disagree is I don't see the off season moves thus far in regards to the interior DL as accomplishing that. As others have touched upon I think there needs to be at least one Veteran FA signed in that department and that some veterans wish to hold off signing until later to avoid such things as mandatory mini camps.

I think Tomlinson is a big addition. Adding him will really help Winfrey. Tomlinson will allow Winfrey to penetrate better.

Hurst and Hill I look at as we are taking a flyer on them. They have some good tape but they have had injuries.

What they will add is unknown. Hurst if healthy may help.

Elliott and Togiai I wish that I could feel better about. But I don't. I don't see them improving.

I do think we will add a guy like Al Woods.

Ogbo in rotation with Alex Wright we shall see. Wright was a rookie and I thought he had a typical rookie year. Ogbo I like.

He can rush the passer.

I do think we will add players in the draft. But I am not counting on them to do much.

In the end I do believe the defense will improve significantly.

I don't disagree it will improve as it stands now. There have certainly been some welcome additions and adding Schwartz to the mix is something I certainly would never downplay.

I think we have improved our talent. I am hoping Schwartz is a difference maker. Just not sure he will be. Can't say I saw schematic deficiencies last year w/Woods. Hopefully, he wasn't a good motivator and Schwartz is. One thing I question is why hasn't Schwartz been a DC recently? If he is as good as you are saying......why wasn't he in charge in Philly or anywhere else in recent years?

I'm taking a wait and see approach, just like I did w/Freddie when you thought he was some huge upgrade as a HC.

On January 19, 2016, Schwartz was hired by the Philadelphia Eagles to be their defensive coordinator under coach Doug Pederson.[27] Inheriting one of the league's worst defenses, Schwartz made an immediate impact. Implementing his 4-3 defense, Schwartz turned around the defense that previously ranked 30th in yards allowed and 28th in points allowed to 13th and 12th in his first season and fourth in both categories during his second.[28] He would eventually lead the defense to his and the Eagles' first Super Bowl championship in Super Bowl LII.[29] On January 7, 2021, Schwartz announced that he was going to step away from coaching and resigned from the Eagles.[30][31]

Didn't he say he stepped down in Philly because of health concerns? Eyesight, vertigo? Can't remember the details other than he would not be able to watch all the game film and didn't want to give the team less than 100%.

Yes on the illness.

Does he have a law degree?

Good one.

I am going to sound off. Behavior problems, and off field stuff in general I have a hard time understanding.

Professional sports pays like nothing else. The money is crazy money. Ohtani's next deal will begin at $500m.

How can anyone making dough like that jeopardize the income?

Yet every year guys going into the draft do something incredible stupid.

Winfrey was disciplined last year for his lack of professionalism. Basically not doing what he was told to do.

I do not understand that. You would think that you be more aware of what life is about.

Pure and simple we need to bring intense pressure.
And I don't want to see the same look over and over again.

It looks like we have put together a lot of talent (ON PAPER).

I think a guy that can make us awesome would be DT Maurice Hurst he is a key and he will be used in a rotation of some sort because of his health background but he is an amazing player if he gets his reps.

jmho

I'm pretty sure he had a pretty serious thyroid issue, so he took some time away to get his health in order. He's since gotten it under control and is back to feeling himself. Think he mentioned it in one of the introductory pressers. I'll try to track down a link.

link

I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding it. Accepting it is a different matter all together depending on who the player is.

I believe we improved as far as starters, but I think rotationally and backups we are questionable.

Looking at the depth at each position the corners are the only position with sustainability.

DT position has the players to be somewhat rotational.

Otherwise, I hate to say I don't see where the defense can withstand many injuries.

My biggest concern is DE and safety. What are the expectations from this defense when Garrett and Thornhill take a play or two off to rest?

Injuries and depth will always be an issue.

It is for every team. When you look at the cap and how you spend it. Depth is where the least money goes.

Teams have to fill out their roster with later round draft picks hoping that they will develop and contribute. Past the third round your hope is that some day they can be role players. Few will become starters. It happens DPJ became a starter. You need to hit on a few but the odds sure go down.

j/c:

Thanks to those who addressed Schwartz's recent history.

I expect someone to bring a sign that says, "May the Schwartz Be With Us" to a game. Don't disappoint folks.

No doubt. The reality is if you can draft 1-2 starters a draft you have done a good job.

This is cool data about blitzing that was done by a guy the Browns just hired as a researcher.

https://www.kaggle.com/code/dominicborsani/using-data-to-determine-blitz-strategy


I enjoy this kind of detail.

I would like to hear some video examples of his (dominic borsani) analysis...

Did a search and came up with this..a more detailed view of the previous link.

https://www.kaggle.com/code/dominicborsani/using-data-to-determine-blitz-strategy

The final roster is not yet set.

We may add a FA yet on the DL.

If we add a guy like Al Woods for the interior after the draft. I think we will be ok.

However, I would really like to find another DE. Pass rushers are a premium so really goods are not going to be hidden in the draft.

We might find a good one in the 50 range depending on how the draft lays out.

The guy who seems to be of interest to the Browns is Yaya Diaby. I know he was brought in for a look see.

I can't say how good he is. He is projected as a 4th.

The one guy that I do like Keion White who projects around pick 50 or so. But I have seen him in mocks for the first round.

I am hoping we target a guy a go get him. We need a long term guy at DE.

Mohamoud Diabate, Jeremiah Martin, Lonnie Phelps, Isaiah McGuire, and Siaki Ika all being added to the D- what do you think the Browns will do with P. Winfrey.....could he be GONE due to lack of production AND maturity....sure would send a signal. Go Browns!!!!

Don't forget Maurice Hearst, Dalvin Tomlinson and Ogbinaya Okoronkwo, and db Juan Thornhill, added early March of this year.

Being able to sub in five new pairs of fresh legs in the pass rush of a defensive drive can't be bad.

I think he at least gets through camp to see if he's 100% all in and focused.

Agree, but the club sure gave the season 22 DL folks a HUGE kick in the butt competition wise- maybe Schwartz's style D will help Winfrey- all the returners will have to put on big boy pants with all the new folks wanting jobs-- Go Browns

It’s not that difficult, if you think about it. For college players you expect to see a significant jump between year 1-2. This is now a full time job, and players that approach it that way will generally improve significantly. Those that do not, will probably not be around for long.

WOW, GM keeps on giving.....add Z Smith- a whole new DL- if healthy we could rock!!!

Starting to get excited! Gotten into watching games from the mid to late 80's with Defenses put together by Schottenheimer 3-4 and then 4-3 by Bud Carson. Tremendous pressure oh and might I add MODELL SUCKS!

jmho

Amen!! I feel sorry for Browns fans who have never seen OUR team as champs!!! Alive in 60s, loved watching Jim run around and thru guys...Leroy Kelly was fab...smoked the Colts as underdogs.....damn, that was SWEET. Go Browns!!!

PS Warfield, Collins, Groza----those guys were all sweet. And Ryan got it done.

I am a little too young to remember Jim Brown playing (became a fan in 1969) but the Browns were considered one of the NFLs better franchises through the early 70. I think they only had one or 2 losing season from 1946 to 1973. A plus was that the Steelers were a laughingstock during that period until about 1972.

They would have to be 58 years old to have even been alive the last time the Browns were "Champs". Much less remember it.

What is the analytic that has a team change the relied upon player at the position of both safeties
and continues to commit to new change there
year after year after year;
even it the players who leave go on to do well and play long on other nfl teams.

I’m looking forward to seeing what Schwartz can do with this defence. Like this trade, liked the Dalvin signing from Minnesota. Jim was the DC I wanted when Woods was let go.

Getting Schwartz was key.

I am sure he played a huge part in deciding the defensive players that were added.

He now has the players to play his scheme. I am really looking forward to seeing how we improve.

I agree. We all know (or strongly think) that Woods and his scheme were doing us no favors. Add the DL talent that we’ve acquired and we HAVE to be improved.

I think that defense determines records more across a season. Offense is slower to gel, and, as a rule offenses have bad days and can put together lousy streaks. I feel our D let us down regularly. I am excited for the Schwartz Browns. Hope we have agents of absolute chaos digging in. Our record will reflect how disruptive and destructive we play. We don't need paper victories. I suspect we can shock some folks who took advantage of Woods regularly. We may be able to inflict game-changer plays this year, and hopefully take over games with stronger second halves. And some tight wins and luck here and there? We may surprise ourselves. Go, Browns.

Woods prefered playing zone even though the strength of the corners was man.

Last year, when the Browns defense played zone they ranked 24th in EPA/play—in man coverage, they ranked 2nd and allowed the lowest QBR in football.

I do not think that we will play as much zone this year.

IMO what we saw first hand last year like blown coverages. We will not see under Schwartz. Schwartz is a disciplinarian. He knows the importance of communication. He knows exactly how he wants the defense to play.

The changes made and the players added will be all about Schwartz and his vision.

They just said that same thing yesterday on ESPN … we were #2 in total defense when we played man and like #26 when we played zone … and woods played mostly zone LOL

If true, and I know there most likely are other factors, that's still a wild stat.

Let's face it Joe Woods is not a good DC. We all could see that here. He may be a good positional coach but not a DC.

Yeah, I think it was pretty apparent he wasn’t gonna work here

Our corners during Woods time were Ward, Greedy, and then we added Newsome and Emerson.

Emerson I can not speak to. But, Ward, Greedy and Newsome came to the NFL as excellent man coverage guys.

I understand the concept and vision of Wood. But I did not think it fit to the players.

I think to a degree Wood's was hamstrung by DL interior. That weakness had a negative impact on the linebackers and secondary.

Under Schwartz IMO we will able to utilize our players strengths. When DT can hold gap coverage it allows linebackers to penetrate. Safety's have more freedom.

I am really curious to see the defense under Schwartz.

Yet less than a month after he was fired from the Browns he was hired by the Saints as their DC. What I think the actual problem was is that he is a DC who runs a zone scheme and the personnel here didn't line up with what he runs defensively. So I guess one could say he may lack the ability to alter his scheme to fit his personnel. Or one could say the FO didn't get him the personnel to run his scheme depending on how one looks at it.

But before one jumps the gun on that, I think they should look at just how many moves this FO made to get the players in here to run Schwartz D scheme. They basically did everything in their power to get him the personnel tailored to run what his specialty is. I think one should ask themselves, did they do the same thing for Woods?

Maybe we gave Woods just what he asked for. Smaller DT's, smaller linebackers, extra safety's. Woods wanted speed, speed, and more speed while teams ran the ball down our throat.

I agree. I think Woods got everything he wanted just as the team pivoted and brought in what Schwartz wanted.

Good point GM

Maybe. But even at that, if you look at the talent level and depth at both the S and LB'er positions it wasn't good. And many people on this board knew there was a lack of talent on the interior DL going into last season. So maybe they did. But maybe they didn't. Getting someone the "type" of players they want doesn't mean those players don't have to be talented enough to be good players. What I do know is it didn't take long for the Saints to hire him at the DC position. I'm pretty sure there were reasons for that.

There were reasons the Browns hired Hue Jackson as well. That doesn't make it a good hire.

And when was Hue Jackson hired again as an NFL HC after he was fired? For Woods it took less than a month to be hired at his former position. And it wasn't the Browns who last hired Woods, it was the Saints. I mean if we were to get into the discussion of all the bad hires the Browns have made since 1999 we would be here talking about it for days.

And none of that addresses what I posted. The Browns had no real threat at FS, weak LB'ers and a poor interior on the DL.

I'm not saying Woods was great here. What I'm saying is that he alone was not responsible. There was enough blame to go around. Obviously the Saints feel that way.

What I am saying is Woods got the type of players he wanted. His scheme and system was the problem. He wanted speed, speed, speed, and not size to go along with it. He got that and you see where that got us. His defense was also to complicated requiring the defense to over think, and play slower, and he had HUGE problems with making adjustments during the game.

BTW we hired Jackson after Oakland fired him unless my memory is wrong. Woods the man I have no problem with, but Woods the Coach will not be successful in the NFL unless he learns from his mistakes and make changes. Time will tell.

the Saints Defense is in the middle of a complete rebuild
they lost a good amount of talent on defense in the off-season and the rest are old and need to be replaced.

Gone:
Onyemata
Davenport
Tuttle
Williams
Elliss
Hansen
Huggins
Street
Sorenson
Evans

Old Players
Cam Jordan is 34
Demario Davis is 34
Honey Badger is 31
Roby is 31

The NFL is all about match ups, and you need roster diversity on defense to be successful.

GM is right, if you have nothing but speed, the way to attack the defense is with power, hence the poor run defense. KS always it quick to point out that if an offense is able to run they ball (think Chubb), they will just grind the clock and take the W. Now, you don't score as many points, or have gaudy offensive stats, but you get a W in the win column.

So the pass defense looks great in the stat column, because the other team is too busy running the ball down your throat.

This is a good breakdown on what to expect from the Schwartz defense.

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/arti...imize_browns_pass_rush/s1_16697_38826515

The scheme is not Star Wars or something new. It is about technique and personnel.

You have to have the right guys. They have to work together as a unit. I am a believer in this type of scheme. The reason is because you must create pressure. You have to get OL off balance. Make them question where to shift.

In my mind if you have a secondary that can play man well then qb pressure is key. There is a clock and pressure has to come in time. That pressure allows man coverage to work.

Smith, Myles and Ogbo are going to used to really get after the qb. The DT have to play within the scheme and do their job.

I am super curious to see how this defense works. If it does Myles is going to have a monster year.

I think we wanted the speed aspect because we foresaw that Baltimore/Lamar were the ones to beat.

Woods’ in game adjustments were horrible. Think back to when Chase went down against us and we simply said: well, we already had our game plan in and we couldn’t stray from it

I want to see our LB play. I can see the attacking D line making the secondary individuals better. I assume less zone will help.

If you attack better, then fewer adjustments are needed. Many concede Woods had poor adjustments in-game. The fact that he needed them so regularly says something about game prep weakness beyond resisting adjustments. I am eager to see us run a D where our vanilla is a pressure as standard scheme. Note again how LB's need to cash in and get stops as well.

I don't think we can judge his in game adjustments until he actually makes one.

Haha

The "type of players"? What does the type of player have to do with the player being good or not? You've avoided addressing that part of it like the plague.


Hmmm... yet after slow starts the last two seasons in both years the D became markedly better later in the season.


5 years after he was HC for the Raiders. And nobody has hired him as a HC since. Woods was hired at his same position less than a month after he was fired by the Browns. Those are in no way the same thing or even close to the same thing and avoided the actual question.... again.


I guess we'll find out soon enough.

For myself I did not have a problem with Wood's scheme. Conceptually it could be a good defense especially against the pass.

In fact I don't lay all the blame on Woods. You have to have the right players to execute the scheme. Woods was hamstrung to a degree.

The DL as a unit lacked talent. That is on Berry. Woods was the fall guy. Schwartz was given immediate authority over the defense. I am sure in meetings with Berry. Schwartz made it clear where changes need to be made. First free agent was Tomlinson. Then they kept adding to the front.

With the right players Wood's defense may work well. So, it is not a surprise to see him hired. DC's change teams often.

With the changes made to the defense I think the results will be apparent.

*Hands Pit a wet washrag, ad a q-tip* Here clean out your ears and wipe the sleep away from your eyes. I answered your question. We didn't play much with standard FS most of the year Woods system called for 3 safeties and their roles were a little different. weak linebackers and poor interior line play.... see my comment about Woods wanting speed, speed, speed, and not caring about size, That answers your question, but just for you I will go a step further. We could have signed a few better players last year however Woods didn't want guys who didn't fit his scheme. If you didn't notice a few of the linebackers we picked up after all the injuries actually played better than our starters, and backups. I can tell you Woods was not all for some of the guys we did pick up (due to the lack of speed he wanted) That helped seal his fate in Cleveland.


1. I don't want to say the defense was dumbed down later in the season, but the defense was dumbed down later in the season.
2. As I said above once some of our smaller linebackers were replaced with linebackers who could actually slow down the run we suddenly looked better.

Like I said Woods is a good guy (I have met and talked with him) but at this point in his career he is not a good defensive coordinator, I hope he can make the changes he needs to so that he can become successful.

So your reply is, "but they were fast" in order to address the quality of a players? Well Anthony Schwartz is fast too for a WR. How's that working out? And I suppose the players this FO are getting on defense aren't designed to fit Schwartz scheme? The O isn't getting players and designing around a new scheme with watson? Of course you're supposed to get players designed to fit the scheme of your coaching staff. I have no idea what point you think you're making with that comment. The question is, are those players good?

Finding backups that play somewhere close to average with the leftovers around the league at that point in the season only shows just how bad you were at finding starters. Because that's all those LB'ers did. Played somewhere close to average. Not putrid like the players they claimed were NFL starters. I hear just fine. That's why I understand all of the double talk.

Wondering if I'm the only fan who doesn't think Winfrey is already a turd. He said some dumb %^#$ last year and got himself in the dog house...but he was no-worse-and-probably-better than any other guy we put in there after the midpoint of the season...better than guys who had been in the league longer than Winfrey.

His recent incident with his date/girlfriend was stupid/unfortunate...but the last time I saw him play football I liked him better than any other DT we rolled out there. Low bar...I know. I hope Schwartz gives him a shot based on his play and not his words.

Some players get a pass and some players don't.

My reply was plain as day. Try reading it again with your eyes open this time.

The last couple years the Browns defense was very over rated.
It's no secret the Browns defense read it own press clippings
Under Joe Woods. This defense lacked physicality and tenacity
But the Homers told us it was a playoff type top 7 defense.
In reality the Browns defense under Woods was more bark than bite

I think Schwartz is going to be more no nonsense and he won't
Allow players to have a sense of entitlement
I don't think he will hesitate to bench a player if he isn't producing
The 2 elements Schwartz needs to pay attention to is the
Porous tackling and lack of turnovers attributed to the defenses
Under Woods.

So were mine. My eyes were wide open the entire time. You simply have trouble admitting there was enough blame to go around and that the FO shared part of the responsibility for failures and lack of talent in certain units of the defense. This isn't a villain verses hero scenario here.

I have no trouble admitting when I am wrong. However I will be damned if I admit I am wrong when I am not. In plain english I told you the Browns got Players that Woods wanted, ones who fit his criteria. You then want to blame the front office for not getting Woods players he wanted when they DID. That blame lays with Woods not with anybody else, and it's something you deny. As far as villain vs hero.... hell neither Woods or the front office are Hero's in any way shape or form at this time, by the same token neither are villains either.

I think other teams are going to find more times during the year where they can seem to pass at will, against the Browns
because, Greedy, and JJ3 are gone, and b/c Ronnie Harrison is gone, and a year removed from Troy Hill being gone,
and the cover guys are not always going to be all healthy.

In 2022, not all of the DL were going to always be all healthy, and they had lost both Maliks and Takk Mckinly and were a year removed from losing Sheldon Richardson or Ogbinaya, and the defensive line had difficulty vs the run.

If other teams can find more times to pass at will, then your team will have to score a bunch of 44 point games to be successful.

well, NOT SO ..... counter argument, ... b/c the new safeties Thornhill and ?, are veterans

Yeah but, the true corners depth has been replaced with @uestionable players times four, and AND, the new veteran safeties, and all of them will have to learn what everyone does as roles.

the best result would be if one group can stay together, learn to play real well,
and then go into a whole season knowing how to play their best as a group.

well,
since the Browns never do this, and always finish in 3rd or 4th place in the division then you could be tempted to believe that that is a reason.

In plain English you told me the FO got Woods "the type of players he wanted" not "the players he wanted." Those are two totally different things.


You may wish to compare what you said before to what you're saying now. At this point i'm not sure which things you are saying is accurate.


So then my entire premise of "There's enough blame to go around" is accurate?

Holy hell batman really, no I mean really. Name one time a team just went out and signed every player they wanted. We want em yep just go tell them they play for the Browns nobody else can sign them, there is no salary cap, everybody in the NFL wants to play for the Browns no exceptions

There were people in the front office who did not agree with the players we signed for the defense under Woods. WHY because he was the defensive cord and he had his own philosophy and schemes.

What is next do you want to argue over the word "is" and what it means? Maybe you want to claim Bill Clinton never had sexual relations with Monica because it wasn't intercourse.


No your sure. You just want to nit pick over "the type of players he wanted" not "the players he wanted.


Not on this subject

I have no idea why you wish to sidestep exactly what it was that you yourself said by trying to present it as something that it's clearly not. It's quite easy to see you stated two totally different things. Although you decided to take the low road by blaming me for your error, at least you cleared up what you meant verses what you posted.


So you call saying two completely different things as "nitpicking"?

So let me get this straight. Since they got Woods "the type of players he wanted" that means they were good players? What players on the interior of the DL last year were "good players"? As I stated, if you look at the speed of Anthony Schwatrz this FO drafted a WR with the speed that was the type of WR they wanted. That's what getting the "type of player" you're looking for looks like. But Anthony Schwartz is still a crappy WR. The exact same thing could be said about the LB'ers and interior DL starters on the roster last year.

So now the poor talent evaluation of the FO is Wood's fault in your eyes.

Pit, remember that one time you said "ah, I see what you were saying, no big deal"??

Yeah, neither do we.

Who is this "we" you are speaking of? There's a clear difference between saying this FO got Schwartz "the players he wanted" and getting him the "type of players he wanted."

One description actually blames Scwartz for the lack of talent by the players on the field. The other clearly does not. But I knew one of you would come along soon to claim there isn't a huge difference between the two. You certainly didn't disappoint.

Actually, that's not what I claimed at all (big surprise). The "one of you" may just be the voices in your head?

I'm gonna have to say "getting the type of players a coach wants" is simply as good as any FO can do. You look at some of the players Berry brought in and they are fine. I blame the scheme and the way Woods called plays. I believe other defensive coordinators would have got more out of the same group of players. jm2c.

And the one of you sees it differently.

Yep. With the only exceptions being:

You have the #1 pick in the draft.
You are prepared to way overdraft someone.
You are willing to give away more assets than the player would be worth to others.
You are willing to overpay player.

And you'll usually have to do two or more of these things to get it done.

Maybe then you can understand why I found this to be quite confusing and asked for an explanation.....



That's certainly true. I'm not the one trying to use a good guy verses bad guy scenario here. As with all NFL GM's there will be hits and misses. There will be certain positions they will do well on and certain positions and players they won't do so well on. It's just the nature of the beast.


And you have every right to that opinion. I also believe he could have done better with better talent on the interior of the DL and LB'er groups. For me it's a combination of both and not the entire fault of one or the other.

How many times are you going to bring up Schwartz when we are talking about Joe Woods and the defense.


Now our DT's since 2020 Bryan 291 pounds
Elliot 303 pounds
Stills 295 pounds
Togiai 296 pounds
Winfrey 292 pounds
Day 294 pounds
McDowell 295 pounds
Oganjobi 305 pounds
Richardson 290 pounds

Behind them we had

JOK 220 pounds soaking wet
Fields 220 pounds
Davis 224 pounds
Smith 225 pounds
Harvey 5'11 230 pounds
Walker 235
Jones 227
Takitaki 238 pounds


Smaller faster guys. Now if you want to blast the front office for getting the type of players Woods wanted and those 220 pound LB's and 290 pound DT's could not stop 330 pound O-lineman from running all over them then the fault is with Woods system, not the front office. It doesn;t mean we had bad players it means the guys were to lite to stop the running game. Now if you want to blast the front office for things they deserve being blasted for go right ahead you won't hear a peep from me, but to blame them for this ... nope I'm not buying that even if it's buy one for a penny and get ten free.

Got work to do buddy. If you reply I will get back with you tomorrow

The 4-3 defense uses smaller, faster interior DL players so not having huge bodies in there isn't that unusual. Much like yourself I'm not a big fan of not having some fatties up front but it's not uncommon.

330 pound O linemen? In today's NFL, sure you still have some of those, but the trend is to use the ZBS. As such the OL is usually lighter than than your stated 330#. The Browns as we both know run that same scheme...

Jack Conklin 308#
Joel Bitonio 320#
Wyatt Teller 315#
Jedrick Wills 307#

Heck the Browns have had Chris Hubbard as the primary backup at the OT position for some time and he is 295#.

You see, there are two main types of OL's in the NFL. The mauling, straight ahead type and the ZBS type. So no matter how you slice it, there is no one size fits all for an interior DL that will fit to be great against both. You need faster, more athletic types to defend against a ZBS and a more physical interior DL to defend against a mauling type of OL front. Obviously Woods defensive interior was designed to be better at the ZBS. Having those large bodies up front will make you weak against a ZBS because that speed and athleticism is lost.

And no, I certainly think that getting both your OC and DC the type of players they need to run their scheme a good thing. If you aren't going to do that why would you hire them in the first place? That certainly isn't the point I have been making all along is that no matter "the type of player" you get to fill a position, that player has to be talented enough to do the job. My contention has been that while the players Woods was given certainly fills "the type of players" he wanted, The talent level of those players as it pertains to the LB'ers and interior of the DL were sorely lacking.

I believe Woods could have done better with the talent he was given but i also think it would have been a huge help if he had been given better talent.

Andrew Berry’s Plan: Making defense faster while not crushing salary cap – Terry’s Talkin’ Browns

Updated: Mar. 21, 2021, 5:55 a.m.

LINK

ANDREW BERRY’S PLAN

No doubt, the Browns GM and his staff have far more revealing numbers that these, but here are some basics about the defense against the pass:

1. The Browns entered free agency knowing their pass defense was awful a year ago. The raw stats had them 22nd in passing yards allowed.

2. As ESPN Stats & Info reported: “The Browns allowed 15 touchdown on passes thrown 15-plus yards downfield last season, which was tied with the Cowboys for most in the league.”

3. That matched the eye test: The Browns gave up a lot of big passing plays. I checked the stats and discovered they ranked 24th out of 32 teams in giving up passes of at least 40 yards in 2020. They also ranked 24th in TD passes allowed.

4. And this from ESPN: “Browns safeties allowed 12 passing touchdowns last year when they were the nearest defender in coverage, most in the NFL. John Johnson’s 61 targets as the nearest defender in coverage was 3rd-most this season among safeties. And he allowed only one touchdown.”


5. Those numbers explain why the Browns put a bigger emphasis on their secondary than the defensive line.

CLICK LINK TO READ MORE

It seems your contention is the scheme was fine - the type of players Woods wanted was fine... and the failure was Berry/FO not getting stud muffins to fill the positions and that the reason Woods schemed failed is the players ability (Berry's fault) not that the scheme was flawed.

I disagree. I think most disagree. Maybe Woods named specific players? IDK - but getting smaller faster players per his agenda/scheme and having the scheme fail (how I see it) is not on Berry. jmo.

1st off you were talking about DT, not DE so yes the OT's are not as big, but it's the interior offensive lineman that do most of the blocking on DT, Joel 320 pounds, and Teller 315 pounds, and Pocic 320 pounds at center. Put them up against two 290 pound DT's and watch them run all over them all day long. Plus the average DT in the nfl weighs in at 310 pounds. Also look at the players we added this year

Hill 310 pounds
Hurst 290 pounds
IKA 358 pounds
Tomlinson 325 pounds


Schwartz wanted more beef in the middle of the Defense. Woods wanted less. That's as plain as the nose on your face. You already saw the results with Woods in charge. now we can watch and see how this all works with Schwartz.



LOL That could be said about every single Coach who ever had a job in the NFL, collage, high school, Jr High, and Little league.

Stud muffins? No, just average to above average talent at those positions.

Let's see how they perform against the ZBS before we start tooting any horns here. And I see you still overstated that 330# claim. It's odd how you totally ignored most of what I posted in your response.

I do understand how it's easier to blame Woods for the poor talent he was given on the interior of the DL than admit that was a major contributing factor to the product on the field.

I used 330 pounds as an example. Did I look it up? NOPE if you want exact the average weight of NFL guards was 315.88 pounds last year.
The average weight of centers was 306.2 pounds.
Average weight of DT's last year 308.7 pounds
Average weight of LB's in the nfl 240.7 pounds

How does that stack up against the Browns?



Cleveland DT's last season averaged 296 pounds with 4 of six of the players in the lower 290's one player at 300 pounds, and one at 303 pounds.
Our Linebackers? 228 pounds on average with no starters of backups over 238 pounds.

As for tooting any horns I already said "Schwartz wanted more beef in the middle of the Defense. Woods wanted less. That's as plain as the nose on your face. You already saw the results with Woods in charge. now we can watch and see how this all works with Schwartz.

Now compare tat to a good defense like the Eagles were 9 of the 11 d-lineman on their roster last season were over 300 pounds with an average weight of 313 pounds.
Linebackers averaged 238 pounds with 4 linebackers over 240 pounds.

By using the average weights you are getting a mix of exactly what I described. Weights combined from both ZBS schemed OL's combined with straight ahead mauling OL's which are comprised of heavier players.

The same goes for interior DL players. You're using the average weights which are comprised of the more physical, bigger interior DL's built mainly to play against those mauling, larger sized OL's and the smaller, more agile DL interiors comprised of players to defend mainly against ZBS OL's.

I saw the results of woods in charge given the interior DL players he was given to work with. You keep leaving out that very important part.

The best way I can think of to maybe make you better understand what I'm talking about is what Mike Shanahan did in the 1990's. If you recall he seemed to be able to "insert RB here" and get great run production from all of them no matter who it was. The reason for that was something rather new at the time. The ZBS. His OL players were so light compared to typical OL players at the time it sounded crazy to think it would work.

As such they were very successful blocking against those slow, fat guys who lacked he agility and athleticism to keep up with those shifts by his OL. The answer to counter that was to get quicker, lighter players on the interior of your DL who could do that. They made those fat guys look clumsy trying to block those shifts that require the speed, footwork and agility to do so.

So yes, if you combine the smaller, faster DL's with the big plodding DL's all across the league, you come up with the average weights you have posted.

It all depends on the type of team that you are going up against.

The light and fast works well against a ZBS and for pass happy teams, but wears out when the opponent plays smash mouth football.

You have a bunch of players, and you need players that can function in heavy packages as well as light and fast.

The Browns were very vulnerable against a smash mouth team last year.

It is no revelation to say Myles Garrett is a great player. He was the first pick in the draft.

PFF affirms his production. He is the Browns best player. Physically he can do things others can not do. The cliche fits. He is a freak of nature.

You don't see guys his size move like Myles can. He can bend the edge like no other. He is nightmare to block. I have never seen a player held more than Myles.

With all of that stated. This season could be his best. For the first time as a Brown. He has a supporting cast that should free him up.

There is a legit rotation at DT. There is a legit rotation at DE. There is a deep and talented secondary that should excel at man coverage.

These additions and developments should release Myles. Teams will not be able dedicate tag teams to mug him. Good man coverage should bring split seconds to aid in sacks.

Having depth rotation should keep players fresh. Myles should benefit on passing downs late in games as O-Linemen wear down.

In addition if our offense is dynamic and can sustain drives and score more points. It gives the defense more rest. It could in addition put teams behind and force them to throw to stay in games. Clear passing downs is releasing the hounds.

Last point is the difference Jim Schwartz brings. He is all about pressure from the front. He knows how to create it. He was given authority on the decisions to bring in defensive players. Guys we brought in were approved by Schwartz.

This could be the year that Myles wins DPOY.

Don't care about Miles and DPOY- real bottomline is Ws vs Ds- I'm very happy with D changes in style and personnel- now get it done on the field when it counts. The time is now---not wait till next year.

The book is out on Myles, chip block him with a RB.
If the play goes to the outside on Myles' side just let Myles upfield into the backfield, and throw or run around him to his side for a gain.
no?

I think teams will still double team Myles and make another rusher try to get pressure on their @uarterback.

Garrett never holds back and does not rush, he can always be counted on to rush so you always know where he is.
no?

Hopefully JS will not waste him dropping him into coverage. Teach him several moves rushing. I believe, that as good as MG is and as much as I love his game, there is untapped upside remaining. I hope JS can find it and develop it.

Schwartz has a good reputation and lots of premier experience.

We have some talent on defense.

I kinda feel comfortable with the offense. At least I have a good idea of what to expect. I know the players well and feel pretty good about how DW will play.

I don't feel the same about the defense. It is not that I don't think they can be good. It is more about I don't know how they will play.

Lot of guys I have not seen much of. And for sure do not know how they will play together.

A key guy on D is Hurst IMO. The guy is pretty dad gum good. If he can stay on the field, which has been , we have a good shot at being very good on D.

I posted about unit play on defense.

I really believe in what I wrote. But in the end the defense has to play together.

It really is about doing your job inside your unit.

I was really excited about hiring Jim Schwartz. He is a proven guy.

I am hopeful because of his hiring. We have added players. The overall talent is at least average or above. Jim Schwartz has to mold the units together.

We still have to prove what kind of defense we will be.

I share those concerns and feelings. A vital job we have after re-tooling with some hopefully nifty pickups and embracing an aggressive D and coach, and help for the O,is what I will call triage. Looking at how we lost, why we lost, and did so in the same way over and over, is to stop the bleeding first, then decide what should be saved. Prioritize corrections and teaching, but stop repeated losses due to personnel failures and lack of adjustments. Upgrade personnel. Get fiercely hungry to win. I think defensive play is a barometer to measure both sides of the ball and their motivation. We have enough now to do that. I hope Ski shows more improvement. So does Haslam, I suspect.

Excellent point this season come down to this.
DESHAUN has never beaten Burrows or Lamar if that happens
Again season over.

As I have said over and over. Woods defense system caused the defense to play slow. To much thinking and not enough reacting, or forcing the offense to react.

Yes you did. I remember.

If we can control the run, I expect the Browns to have a top 10 defense.

If we control the run it'll be the first time in Lord knows when.

Sometimes I get disinterested in posting but I usually read the board regularly. I haven't seen many posts that describe details of Swartz's scheme. But there is information out there that should provide insight. Some of these articles are long so I won't post them in their entirety. I'll just give the link. They are really worth reading.

One thing I will say is that Swartz's scheme is based on pressuring the QB not stopping the run. This can't be disputed because it comes directly from his own mouth. Run stopping is a by-product of his scheme, not the aim.
Jim Swartz doesn't care about being #1 aginst the run.

Swartz does put a priority on the D line at the core of his scheme.
Getting pressure without blitzing

More D line emphasis with D5 front. He will mix in a 5-D linemen front in certain situations.
Saw it in Philly, it's coming to the Browns.

Expect a lot more man and a lot less zone coverage. ( I think this is sprinkled into several of the above articles.)

IMO, the LBs we have now will be fine in this defense.

To execute this properly we're going to need 9-10 DL

We have a top-notch DC in JS and also a HC in waiting if things don't work out with KS, although I hope they do.

I get not posting. Sometimes this Board can get really frustrating.

Thanks for the links.

In Schwartz's recent presser. He was very clear. Be physical and apply pressure. "I might rotate 8 or 9 guys." The point is keep the pressure on by keeping the D-linemen fresh.

If you use a down 5 and you are using stunts the by product will be stopping the run. The DE's can come down the backside and still get the runner if the inside gaps are closed or pressure is coming up the gap.

Schwartz has seen it all. He worked with Belichick, and Saban. He knows defensive football.

The scheme will be solid. I just want to see the players in the scheme. I am hopeful. But you never know. You have to go there and get it done.

Wasn't Schwartz a 'Slappy,' from the good ol' days?

Thanks for that.

Living in Tennesse, I have watched the Titans since they moved from Houston. If I have a 2nd team, the Titans would probably be the team between them, the Falcons, and Bucs.

I was always impressed with the Titans D when Schwartz was the coordinator. It didn't hurt that he had BIG Albert Haynesworth, but it was always about pressuring the QB. That was the first step for his linemen, then adjust to the run.

A guy like Haynesworth was always going to be a top player, but I do think a DC like Schwartz brought out the best in his linemen. I think he will do that here as well.

I never really thought about it until reading about it some time later, but his wide DE sets almost automatically set the edge on run plays starting on wide splits and pinching in towards the projected QB depth in the pocket. It's hard for a back to get around them without dipping 4-5 yards deeper in to the backfield to get around the DE's. They usually have to try to cut inside the DE right in towards the LB's. This makes the LB's job much easier knowing where the back is going to go without dipping deep, more or less making a 3rd and 3 situation in to a 3rd and 8 run.

PFF 2023 Cornerback Ranking


https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-corner...eI8rWfcLnDhb5VhrcXmG4PfALK6DK-j2m2Vm33gE

You got me there. Not familiar with that term?

It certainly can. What with all of the flowers and the smell of cheap perfume.

You can not help yourself from from trying to dig and make snide remarks.

buzz off

I think you can now actually rent a sense of humor from your local Home Depot or Sunbelt Rental location. Lighten up man.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...al-more-about-belichick-than-the-browns/

Turns out, I was right.

Slappies were Belichick's staff. They lived @ the facility, and did anything and everything they were asked.

OK.

Got it. I watched a special on Saban.

https://www.espn.com/blog/nfcnorth/...tocked%20at%20all%20times.,-by%20Taboola

I found the above a funny story.

Lol. He talked about that at his PC right after he was hired. Great story!

https://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland...dc-jim-schwartz-making-his-presence-felt

'He's holding us to that standard': Browns DC Jim Schwartz making his presence felt

New defensive coordinator Jim Schwartz has been tasked with turning around an underperforming, yet talented, defense in Cleveland. AP Photo/Sue Ogrocki

Jake Trotter, ESPN Staff Writer
Jun 5, 2023, 06:00 AM ET
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BEREA, Ohio -- During Wednesday’s OTA practice, new Cleveland Browns defensive coordinator Jim Schwartz stood by the center on almost every 7-on-7 snap.

“Just trying to hear guys communicate,” Schwartz said afterward. “To have a little presence out there.”

The veteran coach and former Super Bowl-winning defensive coordinator with the Philadelphia Eagles has been tasked with revamping a Browns defense that finished 20th in efficiency last season. And whether it’s been his booming voice, him curiously wearing the No. 51 jersey of hard-working backup linebacker Jordan Kunaszyk, or the schematic changes he’s been implementing in recent weeks, Schwartz is visibly putting his imprint on Cleveland’s defense heading into minicamp.

“We need to be coached up,” said Pro Bowl cornerback Denzel Ward. “It’s good criticism. Just guys got to be out here knowing what they’re supposed to do and doing our job, and he’s making sure that he’s holding us to that standard.”

Despite a talented overall unit in 2022, Cleveland’s defense never coalesced under coordinator Joe Woods, contributing to the Browns’ disappointing 7-10 finish. The secondary blew numerous coverages in key situations, from the Week 1 opener against the Carolina Panthers to the season-finale loss at the Pittsburgh Steelers. Communication, among other things, has been a point of emphasis for Schwartz this offseason, underscoring why he’s often been coaching from the center snap.

“You have to really feel the players,” Schwartz said. “We’re learning the players and we’re learning their different personalities and we’re learning where they’re going to need to be pushed, where things are going to fall. So it’s a learning experience for us [coaches] too. And I like to be out there, just in the mix, and think there’s a lot of good information out there.”

One way Schwartz hopes to eliminate breakdowns in the secondary next season is by simplifying the coverages. For all their struggles last season, the Browns ranked No. 1 in opposing QBR defense when in man coverage. With Schwartz looking to unleash his defensive front on opposing quarterbacks, Cleveland should be in man coverage far more this season; the Browns were in man on 45.5% of opponents' dropbacks last season. Schwartz says he believes his cornerback trio of Ward, former first-round pick Greg Newsome II and reigning all-rookie performer Martin Emerson Jr. will be up to that challenge.


Led by All-Pro defensive end Myles Garrett, Cleveland's defense will be on the attack in 2023. Photo by Lee Coleman/Icon Sportswire
“We’ve got good corners,” Schwartz said, “and we’re going to rely on those guys.”

Schwartz hasn’t been vague as to why.

“I won’t keep any secrets,” he said, before admitting that the Browns will be sending at least five pass-rushers after the quarterback on almost every play.

And unlike in past seasons in Cleveland, Schwartz says he’s aiming to feature a defensive line rotation of at least nine players in hopes of keeping them all fresh through the fourth quarter -- with the goal of creating far more sacks, tackles for loss and, ultimately, turnovers.


“The tempo that we want those guys to play, we want to need to rotate fresh troops in,” he said. “Offensive lines don’t sub, but we can. We can keep the pressure on.”


The Browns failed to create negative plays last year, despite featuring All-Pro defensive end Myles Garrett. Cleveland ranked just 27th in the league with 34 sacks (with Garrett alone accounting for 16 of those); the Browns were also just 21st in interceptions (11) and 22nd in forced fumbles (11).

“I first came in and he was telling me all the things that he wanted me to do,” said Pro Bowl defensive end Za'Darius Smith, whom the Browns landed in a trade with the Minnesota Vikings before the start of OTAs. “He was like, ‘Man, we just need you to get off the ball.'”

Smith won’t be the only one -- that much is clear. The Browns won’t be hanging back in 2023. Schwartz’s presence won’t allow it.

“We want to be physical, and we want to have a little personality,” Schwartz said. “All the good defenses have those things. Those are the things that we’re going to emphasize as we go.”

We needed to and did add some solid players to our roster for this coming season, but the biggest and most important addition just might be Jim Schwartz. He's a top notch DC and is well respected. You can see the positive affect he's already having on our team just in the article.

Hiring Schwartz was more than hiring a DC.

He was hired to fix the defense. That and he was given authority to do that in personnel decisions. Maybe not directly but for sure indirectly.

The players added came with his stamp of approval.

I am comfortable with the offense. At least I think I have a feel for what we will do and how it is being planned.

The defense is where we have to make a difference. We have to be a better defense to get anywhere. We have some talent.

I think we have the coach. It is a matter of going out and doing it on the field.

I like that Schwartz is really hands on. He wants to hear and see the defense work. I knew he would not tolerate communication excuses.

When it come to playing personality. I am all about the the Schwartz approach. Pressure. And then more pressure. You have to bring it on every down and you have to keep players fresh.

Looking forward to seeing this defense play.

eh, it's also just that time of year where the articles highlight the positive spin to build excitement. None of it counts for anything at all until they get it done against an opponent.

Much better for you to deliver that message than me.

Purp I understand what you're saying. I have a good feeling about JS and as always hoping for the best.

J/C. Schwartz brings a Super Bowl pedigree with him along with a proven system and prior head coaching experience. He is precisely what this team needed. Can’t recall anyone being excited about what Joe Woods was bringing, nobody really knew. Now we know and we should be very pleased and excited for the changes and upgrades to our roster. When it’s June and we are on here talking about it says a LOT. Where are our holes on this team vs others? I think we are in good shape and have a very open window to Win NOW.

Actually at the time Woods was hired many people were excited about it. He had extensive NFL defensive coaching experience. Not quite the pedigree of Schwartz no doubt. Every time new coaches at any high level are hired people get excited about it and are here talking about it in June. People are posting all of the feel good articles in June about everything and hope springs eternal every year in June. Sometimes later justifiably so and sometimes not.

j/c…

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuppppppppppppppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer BOWL!

It's the time of year where everyone has "a good feeling" about [insert a new guy's name].
It's just part of the annual cycle.

Just like that Walrus Guy.

I understand the desire for hope and hype, but none of this is anything we haven't seen a bunch of times over, already, and absolutely none of it is assurance of any sort of a positive outcome.

Well, with all that said... aren't we way overdue?!

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupppppppppppppppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer BROWNS!........YEAH!

IYKYK.

What you typed is TRUE.....but, ain't it nice hearing the guys say they like and RESPECT the DC....and he'll hold them accountable......sweet. Go Browns!!!

https://www.brownsnation.com/rodney-mcleod-makes-his-thoughts-clear-about-jim-schwartz/

McLeod has played for Schwartz. So he knows exactly what to expect on a day to day basis.

Players have been added to fit the scheme and McLeod is one of them. It is clear listening to him and Dalvin Tomlinson that Schwartz has the defense's full attention.

Expectations at this time of year are going to be optimistic. But Schwartz has been in the league a long time. He has a track record and reputation so I think we should know what to expect from him.

The primary thing is I believe will be discipline. Players will know precisely what they are expected to do. And he will get on players. Accountability will be part of what he will bring to the team.

I am super curious to see how the team plays under his coaching.

Perrion W will get his chance to be a Brown.....guess the front office called it right. Hope he's grown up some--although I hate seeing him out at 3AM and getting robbed----he must have gotten great education cuz it sure seems he's hell bent to give up his professional football career.....time will tell if he sticks. Good Luck.

j/c
There's been a lot of media focus on the offense and rightly so. In mini-camp with all the 7-on-7 work. But the defense has been working. Here are some looks at what the Swartz D-Line has been doing to transform that unit. I find it both interesting and encouraging.

I like how teaching what Swartz wants from his D-line has meshed with the competitive nature of the players.
Ball get-off.


I appreciate the insights of Coach Bloom telling us how the players are responding during individual sessions.

Thanks for the video

D liked by our D, BUT is this system vulnerable to SCREEN game? Flying to QB is fun, but dump off seems pretty easy counter? Thoughts.

Of course, it goes without saying, but that won't stop me from saying it, lol. The team is competing at the highest level of professional sports. There will be plays made against our defense. Opponents will move the ball. I think it's safe to say that the aim of the defense is to reduce, measurably, the amount of offensive production opponents have against our defensive unit. We'll have to accept that opposing offenses will make plays. I"m hopeful that Schwartz will be better at making adjustments as needed.

With that out of the way, I found an article that illustrates how Schwartz has deployed his defense in previous seasons. I'm sure there's been some evolution since some of these observations were made but it's what is available to make an educated guess about how the 2023 Browns defense will operate.


JIm Schwartz's attack defense.

Hitt, specifically to your question about being susceptible to the screen. Look at "Shot 3", involving Mario Williams. It does not specifically show Buffallo (when Schwartz ran their defense), defending a screen. But it does give some indication of the Linebacker's responsibility (look at #53) when the ends are rushing hard upfield. Although not shown, I would think the Corners or Safties would also have some responsibilities for players in the flat.

Also, take a look at "Shot 15) ironically involving the Browns, Admittedly this is a pitch to (Cribbs?) not a screen but the DE is rushing aggressively upfield with an inside rush. The Linebacker has to replace the DE by getting outside quick, fast and in a hurry. This is what our Linebackers will be tasked to do.

Overall, this article from the archives of the Eagles website contains some tangible evidence on how our D will be expected to play.

Judge JS for JS system as played and as called. Improve our D means better personnel, more aggression, more disruption, less cushion, fewer long conversions to name PART of the list. But it reduces to making the offense perform and execute while you inject chaos into as many steps of their play as possible and hopefully capitalize on a breakdown. A D which scores more than we have for some time could be helpful too. I agree with the above, and know that screens can be devastating, amply proved by Landry years back. Going to get beat by some things, but your approach will hopefully exact more for your efforts and standard pressure, a kind of Vanilla Crush
standard for a norm, I am excited to see a defense teams have to prepare for and visits more grief on them throughout a game, especially in our division.

When I start thinking about a subject, could be work, personal or football random questions pop up in my head. So I started thinking about defending the screen pass and I wondered if there were any stats that show teams' effectiveness against the screen specifically. I did a superficial search and didn't find those stats. If anybody is interested and finding that data I'd appreciate them sharing it here.

What I did find was a link to the Joe Daniels Football System which lays out how he coaches offensive and defensive schemes. So I asked myself, "Self, who is Joe Daniels?" Self had no answer so I Googled it. This is the answer I received.

Joe Daniels was a football coach in the National Football League (NFL) from 1983 to 1991, finishing his career as the quarterbacks coach of the Cleveland Browns. Take it for what it's worth.

Anyway, this coach says that screens are an extension of the run game, the crux of defending the screen is by run fits. At first, this seemed a little counterintuitive but essentially his system says that DL recognition is a key to stopping screens. I'll leave the details in the link I'm including here.

Defending the screen pass

There is an embedded podcast on that page as well that might be interesting to some.

Basically we are going to be short passed to death then when we switch
To pasrushers everyone will run on us.
This team as it is currently constructed will surrender 25 to 30 points agame.

I went to look if Elliott was under contract for 2024,
and found this article which is bull, and written in june so about ten days ago.

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/jordan-elliott-deal-means-browns-need-starter

The premise of the article is the Browns got nothing but @uestion marks when they brought in Trysten Hill, and Maurice Hurst so that they still have Nothing, except Dalvin Tomlinson in the middle,
and that Ika, = nothing, and all the Browns have is a hole and restructuring Elliotts deal proved it, or was proof.

The article is complete and total bull by Pete Pri> what's his name because Hill, and Hurst, and even Elliott,
now with people to stand next to are going to be something.
and NOT only, is the article wrong on whether the Browns addressed the DL already, it's also wrong about who the team would try to get to clear waivers because Hill and Hurst did NOT get brought in only to try and clear waivers later while Perion was doing everything a team could ever ask.

The ONLY way, he could be right on his point would be if the Browns tried to restructure the player from 2022, that had an R in his first and last name if I recall correctly. or the other one, if there was one. and there was nothing to restructure of them anyway, they were "future contracts" players at best in 2022, and that's the point.

If I'd follow the Titans media I'd have heard they have a way to address this, they say Vrabel has 2 nickel packages, one for the short pass play and one for the deep pass play.
And the Browns have more talent than them, so, is it coaching?

That is a bold statement. However, anyone can say anything.

Based upon what? How are we basically constructed? And how will that lead to giving up 25 to 30 points a game?

Right Bone exactly. Now I'll make an assessment. We obviously haven't played a down with all our new players and coaches. Games aren't won on paper but we do look better on both sides of the ball. We won 7 games last year and IMO, should have won 9. With any type of improvement on either side of the ball we should increase that win total by 3-4 games. Every year there is a surprise team. Let me be optimistic for once with my Browns and say this season it could very well be us.

How we are constructed is going to lead to giving up 25 to 30 points a game?

We have not seen how we are constructed. All we know is the history of Jim Schwartz.

Schwartz has not coached this team yet. We don't know how they will play.

Talent wise PFF graded our lines elite. That is both lines. We have a talented and deep secondary. There could be some questions at linebacker.

I am cautiously optimistic.

Exactly. I'm just voicing my opinion. It doesn't mean I'll be right. I like what I see but like I said we haven't played a down yet. But to say we're going to give up 25-30 points a game is a little extreme. WE weren't very good on D last year and didn't give up that much.

Schwartz might be the best coaching hire for the Browns in decades. We have talent, plugged gaping holes on the D line and safety in the off-season and we are set at corner.

JS knows how to get the best out of guys who can fit in with what he wants to do. And I get the feeling he won’t put up with slack-ass BS, either. Our D will be significantly better this year imo.

That's how I feel. More encouraged by JS signing than any other move this off season.

I like what I see as well. SB on paper talk is premature. So is giving up 30 per game. We have talent in many areas, some of which you noted. It will be a JS defense as it is run by JS which can preserve wins and improve records. If LB play surprises to the upside, could be fun this year. Getting JS is huge! Someone noted we would need about 120 more points scored to compete with the best teams for the top. Just feel it should be pointed out that the number can be jiggered; we do not need that many points if we have brutal defensive efforts to limit that number. No pads and snaps yet, but I really feel we can be much better in a number of directions, all of which can yield wins.

Normally when we get to this time of year; we develop expectations.

I wonder what Board members expectations are? Not predictions. Not guessing about records.

Expectations about how we will play. Predicting records means you also are predicting how other teams will play as well. It is a fools errand to look at 32 teams and think you could know how all the teams will play.

We know our team on a micro level. So, we should have expectations of how we will play.

Schwartz has a reputation. He believes in the DL rushing the passer. Wide nine is based up DE's.

The DE's align themselves out wide, angled back toward the quarterback, and has limited run responsibility on the play. His whole job is to get to the quarterback. These are the defensive ends who excel at getting off the ball, blowing past the tackle, dipping their shoulder around the turn, and reaching the quarterback as he completes his drop.

Schwartz wants to keep guys fresh. He wants a rotation of players to do that.

My expectations are we will get more sacks. The secondary will be less confused. Linebackers are more pass support than run support.

On offense I expect we will pass more. Moore will play a big role. Chubb will get his and have room to do more damage. I expect DW to be better than what he was in Houston. The reason is better OL, Chubb, and a diverse scheme.

I expect the team to be more fun to watch.

Isn't the solution to this having LBs and safeties that can fly to the ball?

It begins with pressure. We will use loops and stunts.

But we made an investment in defensive tackles in free agency and the draft. The tackles we brought in are run defenders. They are bigger guys who know what gap integrity means.

Last year it meant nothing. The tackles got sealed. Guards and centers were into the second level. It was a mess.

We are not going to play SS/FS. More about nickel with safety's having multiple roles.

It sure would help if the Browns had LBs capable of "flying to the ball" but the Browns LBers.

There were NO LBers drafted by the Browns and some of their current LBers, when given a chance to show themselves, they ended up on IR, waiting for surgery followed by months of rehab and recovery from their various injuries. I don't know how much "flying to the ball" the Browns LBers are going to be doing?

The weakest position on the Browns defense is at LBer...and I have seen no plan to fix the problem...cross your fingers.

IMO the role of the linebacker position has changed in the NFL.

Guys like Parsons, Watt, and others are not linebackers per se. They are pass rushers. They get moved around and rush from different places on the field.

Here are the listed linebackers on the Browns roster and their size:

Matthew Adams - 6' 230
Mohamoud Diabate - 6'4" 225
Tony Fields - 6' 222
Jordan Kunaszyk - 6'3" 235
JOK - 6'2" 221
Jacob Phillips - 6'3" 228
Taki - 6'1" 238
Charlie Thomas - 6'3' 216
Anthony Walker - 6'1" 235


238 lbs is the heaviest guy. If you can not cover. You can not play three downs. They still support the run but not in the same way as the position once played. You fly to the spot. You are not expected to shed O-linemen. You have to be faster and quicker.

The position is more like big safety. They have to play zone and at times man. You see way more nickel, and dime.

Alignment of 4-2-5 is way more common.


I still need to see the Schwartz defense in action. I have ideas but I am guessing.

I won't weigh in on the Schwartz discussion because I don't see pontification as a valid way to address that. I will say that his resume' would certainly give the appearance of being a significant upgrade to Woods. As such with the additions to the defensive roster one would think we will see at least some improvement. Anything beyond that I see as pure speculation.

In regards to the LB'er position I think you're spot on. When one looks at the past 5 SB winners, they won due to their QB play. They won based on the passing game. When you look at the top rated teams in the NFL today, you'll see they are the teams with the best QB's. Four and five WR sets are becoming more and more common. Then when you throw in 2 TE's you can have as many as six passing targets on any given play. You do need guys who can come in and cover the run, but it's obvious that the passing game has to be the top priority here. So speed and agility is far more important than muscle, bulk and strength alone.

The NFL is an ever evolving sport in terms of strategy. I too have made the mistake in the past of not seeing it as it unfolds and have been a little late to the party in that regard. But this is not one of those times.

Hey Oobs. Maybe I have been sleeping, but I haven't seen you in a while.

Welcome back.

It is the weakest if you are thinking about backers like they were in the 70's.

The whole position has changed. They are more for speed, but still aren't fast enough.

Back when teams played a 3-4, LB was a prime position. Teams don't play that anymore.

I can't think of a single defensive formation or situation where teams bring in extra linebackers. I can think of many where they take one off the field.

Backer units are the weakest group because teams have the LB position at the bottom of the totem pole on the defensive unit.

That said, the size we have put on the D line in front of the 2 we will play most of the time should impact their play in a positive way.

Though I agree with most of what you said, the exception to the thought is the top ranked 49ers defense and their linebackers. Burks, Warner, and Greenlaw are not any bigger or faster than the Browns current group of LB's yet still the top ranked group instrumental in their drive to the NFC title game that was achieved thru their defense and not an elite QB. As stated above, the 49ers LB's "fly to the ball" where the Browns LB's do not. It's not rocket science; all you have to do is watch the tape and you'll immediately see the difference. San Fran has invested in their LBer crew where the Browns have not. Hopefully the additions on the d-line will help but that's even subject at this time until we see the actual product on the field. I'm optimistic that after 4-years of DL changes that Berry has the DT position finally shored up but if he hasn't, I would expect more of the same with opponents running the ball down our throats. Of course, that's one way to negate the Watson effect if he's sitting on the bench.

I agree. His rep precedes him, and is well-earned.

The part of this story I'm loving is that his first NFL 'job' was an intern during the Belichick years. Came up from nothing. Earned his way to this place- and now has a D squad that (on paper) looks to be competitive against the best.

It would be so cool to see him win a Super Bowl with the team that gave him his first NFL experience.
It's only fair- after years of seeing Belichick and BAL win multiple championships after Model snatched the team from 216, Dawgs deserve to see a "Slappy" hoist the Paul Brown NFL Championship Trophy.


just my opinion

I am not saying we shouldn't ant better, or possibly need better.

My feeling is when you go with the "smaller' lb group, you need more beef in front of them. I think the mistake that was made early on is we seemed to go with the lighter, quicker DT.

When blockers were 240+ lbs, they could take on guards...who were a bit lighter then. Now that pretty much all guards are near 300 or more lbs, going with lighter backers doesn't work. There is a difference between shedding a block to get around a player v running away from them.

Just the evolution of football. Just as the O's have transitioned in to more of a speed, passing and QB type running attack, the D's have had to make changes as well.

There is no tape for this year.

We don't know yet how this defense will play. Woods tape is self revealing.

Just watch the interior defensive line. They were sealed out of the gap. Guards and center were in the second level.

Until we see this unit play. We do not know how they will play.

They invested in the DL because it was obvious. It was Berry's mistake the year before. He made corrections.

Now we will see how Schwartz scheme works. And, we will see if the players brought in will execute.

What kind of NFL LBers does it take to win a Lombardi trophy..?

Do the Browns have those kind of LBers..?

I'm pretty sure that is what I was implying. However, the DT's Berry had in place were extremely weak in 2020, changed in 2021 to become the worst in the league, changed again in 2022 to be the worst in the league, and another change in 2023 with hopes the Browns finally have it right - the huge unknown at this point. It's not that the Browns haven't invested in the DL, it's that the acquisitions, FA and draft, have been suspect at best. The DL problem is a 3-year plus issue that Berry and Stefanski are taking their 4th swing at fixing. It's true the Browns acquired Tomlinson (PFF ranked 14) to shore up the interior, but the other DT position will still be manned by Elliott (PFF ranked 118) and Winfrey (PFF ranked 117) for their play in 2022. With basically no changes at LB, excuse me if I'm a bit skeptical that the DL is fixed having not seen the unit play as of yet.

Linebacker play is not a premium position.

Of course they play a role. But it is not where money is spent. On defense it is about rushing the passer and the secondary.

DE's and corners make the do-re-mi. If we are average at LB we will be fine.

Outside of Tomlinson I do think the other tackles are set.

Camp will determine what kind of rotation there will be on the whole DL unit.

Right now these are the other tackles:

Maurice Hurst
Jordan Elliott
Tryston Hill
Siaki Ika
Tommy Togiai
Perrion Winfrey

* Alex Wright ( may get a chance to play 3 tech)
* There could be times DE's play inside

In the end I believe there will be a rotation of players all along the entire DL.

Obviously in passing downs there will be an emphasis on putting the best pass rushers on the field.

* goal line and other situations Tomlinson and Ika the beef.

I am unconcerned about last years PFF grades and stats from years past. This is Schwartz's defense.

In the end the defense is a one total unit made up of three separate units. When I see them play then I will comment about the defense.

At this stage I am more curious than skeptical. I don't start at skeptical.

I think something to remember about the DT progression from years past is that it is not solely on Berry. It is a collaborative effort. Joe Woods has a role to play. He details the traits and type of DT he is looking for. Berry goes and look for those traits and analytics.

And Woods prized athleticism over size and power. He wanted agility and movement. I think Schwartz likes bigger bodies because of his wide 9. But I also think Schwartz prizes disruption over all. Whether that is with speed or power or size, or whatever. Both guys want to make the O react to them, but have different ideas of how to do it. Woods wanted all Aaron Donald, John Randal types...smaller, slipperier, and in the backfield. The problem is...Those types are very few and only succeed because they have a ton of power too. Schwartz I think is a little more blunt about it. Kind of Woods' scalpel to Schwartz's sledge hammer.

Can Berry be blamed for not being able to find the next Aaron Donald??? Well, sure an argument could be made...but I don't know how strong that would be.

* Error. "Outside of Tomlinson I do "Not" think the other tackles are set."

Being the least important group on the defensive side, I don't know.

You could ask the same about our D-line, DB's, and coordinators over the years, but I get it, you are fixated on the linebackers. Just understand that average is OK with those guys.

Like i said, you see teams pull linebackers from the field all the time. If they are that important, why not bring in an extra backer and dump a DB or D lineman?

Maybe try to answer my questions before you ask me any more.

You are stuck in 60's, 70's and 80's football they way I am stuck in the 60's, 70's, and 80's country music.

Though the LB position has changed, the emphasis that LB's are the tackler on the defense is still in place. Of the top 25 ranked players with tackles in 2022, 21 of the 25 are LB's with 3 of the other 4 being DB's from non-playoff teams and the other from Seattle. The Browns top tacklers were Delpit and Johnson - safeties leading the team in tackles. Interesting to note that BAL and CIN have a LB on this list along with both Super Bowl teams from this year ranked 2nd and 9th overall. LB's are still key to a defense and the Browns not investing into the position could be a drastic error for the club - at least the stats would show that opinion.

POS/Team/Player_______________2022 Tackles
1) LB JAC Foyesade Oluokun________128
2) LB KCC Nick Bolton_____________ 108
3) LB BAL Roquan Smith___________ 103
4) LB SEA Jordyn Brooks___________103
5) LB IND Zaire Franklin___________ 102
6) LB DEN Alex Singleton___________101
7) LB NYJ C.J. Mosley_______________99
8) LB NYG Bobby Okereke___________99
9) LB CHI T.J. Edwards______________99 (previously PHI)
10)DB HOU Jalen Pitre_______________99
11)LB KCC Drue Tranquill____________ 95
12)LB LAC Eric Kendricks____________ 87
13)LB MIN Jordan Hicks______________86
14)LB TEN Rashaan Evans____________86
15)DB GBP Jonathan Owens__________ 84
16)LB WAS Cody Barton_____________ 84
17)LB PHI Nicholas Morrow___________83 (previously CHI)
18)LB CIN Logan Wilson_____________ 83
19)LB HOU Christian Kirksey__________82
20)LB SFO Dre Greenlaw_____________82
21)LB SEA Bobby Wagner____________ 81
22)LB TBB Lavonte David____________ 80
23)LB SFO Fred Warner______________79
24)DB SEA Julian Love_______________79
25)DB ARI Jalen Thompson___________79
26 thru 42 = 8 more LB's, 8 DB's

42)DB CLE Grant Delpit______________72
43)DB LAR John Johnson_____________70 (previously CLE)

All the starting linebackers missed a lot of time.

Walker missed the year. Phillips, JOK and Taki were hurt.

We should not expect safety's to lead the team in tackles.

I am being honest. I don't know how the defense will play.

That's a good point. We did have a lot on injuries at the LB position and we lost a leader on D there early in the season namely Anthony Walker. I don't think we're as bad at LB as most think but I'll admit we could use a top talent there. Time will tell.

I had a suspicion that the immediate response would be that the Browns LB's were injured in 2022. However, since 2000, the top tacklers for the Browns have been LB Jones who played only 11 games with 25 tackles while in Cleveland and "no surprise," safety John Johnson who was only in Cleveland for 2 years. This chart is a 3-year look at the top 25 players with the most tackles over that time period.

To take it a step further, in 2020, the Browns didn't have a single player, LB or DB, ranked in the top 50 in tackles. In 2021, the Browns player with the most tackles was LB Walker with 69 tackles that ranked him 36th overall.

I disagree with the opinion that the Browns can get by with average LB's just the same as I disagree with having average DT's, an average at best LT, and a bunch of WR's that are journeymen or players they hope can meet their potential that Berry needed to address. Instead, we got a grossly over-payed TE (13.7M avg), a 5th year option on an undeserving LT (14.175M), and at least by last year's performance - a grossly over-payed CB (20.1M avg). I will reserve my thoughts on Watson, but I was highly disappointed by the product he put on the field last year for 46M dollars. Granted, Berry is spending money - the most in the NFL but where and how is he spending it if we continue to have areas of weakness? To be fair, kudos for resigning Pocic, picking up Tomlinson, Smith, and Moore (except, what's the plan if we get the 2021 & 2022 Moore instead of the potential Moore?). As a CBS reporter stated, "the Browns are all in for 2023," they better show results.


1) LB JAC Foyesade Oluokun___________308 (2 yrs ATL, 1 yr JAC)
2) LB BAL Roquan Smith______________296 (2 1/2 yrs CHI, 1/2 yr BAL)
3) LB DEN Alex Singleton_____________ 257 (2 yrs PHI, 1 yr DEN)
4) LB TBB Devin White_______________ 257
5) LB LAR Bobby Wagner______________255 (2 yrs SEA, 1 yr LAR)
6) LB SEA Jordyn Brooks______________247
7) LB NYG Bobby Okereke_____________245 (3 yrs IND)
8) LB MIN Jordan Hicks_______________239 (2 yrs ARI, 1 yr Min)
9) LB LAC Eric Kendricks______________237 (3 yrs MIN)
10)LB SFO Fred Warner_______________ 237
11)DB ARI Budda Baker_______________228
12)LB GBP De'Vondre Campbell_________227 (1 yr ARI, 2 yrs GBP)
13)LB TBB Lavonte David______________225
14)DB NYJ Adrian Amos_______________213 (3 yrs GBP)
15)LB CHI Tremaine Edmunds__________213 (3 yrs BUF)
16)LB BAL Patrick Queen______________213
17)LB ARI Kyzir White________________206 (2 yrs LAC, 1 yr PHI)
18)DB TEN Kevin Byard_______________205
19)DB MIN Harrison Smith____________ 203
20)LB NYJ C.J. Mosley________________202
21)LB CAR Shaq Thompson___________ 202
22)DB BUF Jordan Poyer______________201
23)DB IND Kenny Moore______________200
24)DB PIT Minkah Fitzpatrick__________ 200
25)LB CHI T.J. Edwards_______________200 (3 yrs PHI)


33)LB ATL Deion Jones_______________185 (2 yrs ATL, 1 yr CLE - 11 gms played 25 tackles)
40)DB LAR John Johnson_____________ 180 (1 yr LAR, 2 yrs CLE)

You disagree with just about everything.

You need to take over for Berry and show him how to spend money.

Maybe you could be the head coach and GM. That way you can show KS how it's done as well.

Hell just buy the team and make all the decisions.

And they went to the AFC Divisional Round

69 solo, 44 assisted for 113 total. 33rd among all defenders, 26th LB. Not much better but he missed three games too. Tae Crowder, (2021 PFF score of 29.1)got more tackles than Walker. Cole Holcomb (2021 PFF score of 56.7) got more tackles.Bobby Okerke (2021 PFF score of 58.5) got more tackles. Conversely, LaVonte David got less than him. Same with Micah Parsons, Shaq Thompson, Demario Davis, Patrick Queen, Leonard Floyd and others. These are good/great LBs so what does that all mean, exactly?

Also, where is this list coming from? Are you counting total tackles or solo ones like you did w/ Walker? Also, where is the color coordination for?

All that said, I think there are far more important statistics determining effectiveness for players than the amount of tackles one accrues over the course of a season.

- A good defense, essentially by definition, means your unit won't be on the field much, thus limiting the amount of snaps for tackling opportunities.
- Where were these tackles had? Behind the LOS or 10-15 up field? If the latter, than so what if that means more tackles for a player.
- How is a def. scheme used by a team? How often are LBs on the field? What is the % of teams using nickel and dime packages?

Look, our defense wasn't good last year, but I'm not sold on tackle numbers as a priority stat to refer to. Missed tackles might be more of an important statistic, in my opinion. And yes, injuries are a factor for some players if we are simply aggregating the amount of tackles in a season and then judging a player's value on their total.

Its a different era. Mike and Eddie Johnson are not here we must let go of the past. JOK, Walker and Taki are useless if there is no DTs to absorb the LG, C and RG. That is the key for us.

Personally I think Schwartz is bringing back the old 46 D so a big key will be our Safeties and we manned up there!

Sometimes I think people just look for stats and lack understanding of the actual game.

All last year I watched centers and guards in the second level. Gaps were sealed off and linebackers were screened.

So where did the bulk of those tackles take place? Were they on RB's rushing the ball coming out of the backfield or were they against WR's, TE's and RB's in passing situations? Your raw numbers have done nothing to support your previous position.

Why the personal attack? This is a forum where we can exchange opinions about our team. I make an attempt in every post to share my opinion based on facts as much as I can without attacking the person whose post I'm commenting on.

Just like this post - with 4 of our LB's coming off injury and their past performances, can you honestly say the Browns LB's are not a questionable area of concern?

Honestly, has Njoku's performance past and present earned a contract of 13.867M avg comparable to the performances past and present of a Kelce 14.312M avg, Kittle 15M avg, or an Andrews 14.0M avg? Really, has there been a single season out of the 6 that Njoku has been with the Browns that comes anywhere close to these other top TE's performance? Then why is he being paid a ransom for half the results?

Do you honestly accept the sixth highest paid CB in the NFL performance last year? Please don't use Wood as an excuse for his lackluster play because he supposedly earned that high contract playing in Woods exact same defense the two previous years. Did the Browns get their 21M worth from Ward in 2022?

Was signing Pocic to a new deal not a good thing?

Was going out and getting Smith, Tomlinson, and Moore not good moves from the Browns?

Can you honestly state as a fact that Moore's past disdain might not pop up again if he's not getting his own predetermined targets in the Browns offense? Afterall, he has a well-documented history. I agree with the talent that has yet to be shown but where's his mind and what's the plan if the Browns get the 2022 Moore?

There's been numerous posts on here about Wills - questioning his progress even by you. It's just my opinion that you don't hand him a guaranteed 14.7M option year when there's questions about his production the last 3-years.

Watson was not good last year for many different reasons, but the fact still remains that he was paid 46M for that poor performance. That's not an opinion, it's a fact and excuse me for calling out his poor play.

Getting Schwartz as DC was a good move past due by the Browns. I do believe the defense will be better but not sure if it's playoff caliber yet. Maybe, but there's a whole lot of question marks right now and that makes even the average fan a little uneasy.

Anyway, this is what the forum is supposed to be about. Fans talking about the team and how they're going to look this year. Nobody needs or deserves the attacks because they don't like what the person said. That's the problem in today's world - let's just silence those individuals when we don't like what they are saying.

At times I certainly think you make some valid points and tend to agree with them. I also feel that criticism of any kind is not well received on this board. But it is a Browns fan site so to some extent I think that's to be expected. As I think you can see I don't really care if people disagree with me because I plan to state things the way I see them.

Moore's past conduct is something people seem to wish to avoid and dismiss and as to why I have no idea. Well, maybe I do. It tends to be a trend when a player puts on the Browns uniform. And then we see other players wearing the uniform that aren't performing the way fans like and they attack like rabid dogs over far less. It's like watching people turn mole hills into mountains and then watching those same people turn mountains into mole hills. But in regards to Moore....

New Details Emerge From Elijah Moore's Profane Outburst on Day of Trade Request

Elijah Moore and former offensive coordinator Mike LaFleur had a heated exchange before the wide receiver requested a trade from the Jets.

https://www.si.com/nfl/jets/news/ne...outburst-jets-trade-request-mike-lafleur

I'm sure we all hope such conduct is behind Moore but there is reason for caution and concern.

With Wills I don't think it's so much about "deserving" 14 mil. as it is about availability and being better than the available options. And don't you feel that's a better option than giving him a long term contract extension? I mean our top pick was in the third round so their options were limited.

And no, Njoku has not as of yet lived up to his contract numbers. If it doesn't happen with watson it never will.

There are areas where we disagree but it's not simply because your points aren't sunshine and roses. I try to take each one individually and act accordingly. For some reality can be a hard pill to swallow. One thing I try to keep in mind is there is no such thing as a perfect person. Be that person an NFL HC, an NFL GM or an NFL owner. So while I hope and expect them to perform well, I understand that they will make mistakes along the way. Perspective is a good thing.

The same question could be given to you.

In the NFL last year, teams averaged 33.3 passing plays per game (54.95%) to 27.3 running plays (45.95%). For the Browns, opponents passed the ball 53.12% and rushed the ball 46.88%. That's a whopping .61% more passes per game than the NFL avg. Since the Browns opponents for all practical purposes ran the average number of passing plays vs running plays as the NFL average then you would have to assume that the tackles should be being made by the linebackers as the top 25 demonstrated which did not happen for the Browns. To answer your question, the Browns defense basically had the same breakdown as the NFL average and the tackles should have been similar which they were not. These facts do indeed support my position that the Browns safeties should absolutely not be leading the team in tackles if the people in front of them were doing their job.

Thank you for your honest opinion.

First of all, I wasn't the one trying to make a point of how poorly the Browns LB'er were against the run so it's not my point to prove. Secondly, when you have your DL being pushed around by your opponents, it creates a situation where your LB'ers share an unfair disadvantage over teams with more physical and capable DL's. And has been pointed out already, your numbers were based on solo tackles and not combined with assisted tackles.

That's why raw numbers in and of themselves often times do net tell the story.

It has nothing to do with personal.

I don't have a thing against you personally. I have said it before. It is like you go looking for stats to isolate a negative point.

I disagree with you. Disagree as in discussion. From the posts I have read of yours. They all come with the same objective.

You carried on on about kicking the can. How you perceived cap issues. They added players and still have space.

You pull KS stats from the Vikings that were a misrepresentation.

You constantly post about overpaying players.

I don't think you really know football. I think you research to somehow think you are proving how wrong everything Berry does is wrong.

Njoku. So if we do not sign him. Who replaces what he can do? Njoku would get the same he got from a number of teams.

Ward did not play well last season. There is not a team in the NFL that would not kill to sign Ward.

What do you know about Moore? Where you at practices with the Jets? Have you been to Browns practices? What would lead you to say his "disdain" will be an issue. What have you read that he has shown anything but good reports as a Brown? But no. You are trying cast him as some kind malcontent.

Watson. Please. Where would the Browns be without that trade? Would Baker be our man or, some other cast off?

What is fact about DW is his ability. How about the games beside the last six? In addition looking at those six games as an indication of future performance is about you not him.

Schwartz was a good move. Could the move have been made earlier? Yes. But it would not have been Schwartz.

We disagree. I don't have a problem with that. You think you are right and proving something.

I don't think you are right and I don't think you know the game from the inside. You know how to find stats and accounting.

What bugs me is that you look for everything you can to try and show the Browns organization is completely inept.

I like the KC LBers

Nick Bolton, 5-11, 237 ... 180 total tackles, 108 solo tackles
William Gay, 6-1, 243 ... 88 total tackles, 51 solo tackles
Top Backup=Leo Chanel, 6-3, 250 ... started 8 games

Not much doubt about them playing Super Bowl caliber football in 2022/2023.

We can respectfully agree to disagree and see where the chips fall this season. To be clear, I didn't say Moore was a malcontent at all and even said it was a good move by Berry all of which you conveniently skipped by. What I did say was what if the Browns get the 2022 Moore instead of the high potential Moore - is there a plan? Totally different from what you are commenting on. Last point on Moore, and I send it back to you: What do you know about Moore? "Were you at practices with the Jets? Have you been to Browns practices?" What would lead you to say his past actions are behind him and he'll finally reach his potential? You don't have any more of an idea on his future performance than I do. Like I said, I agree with the Berry move but unlike you, I'm not anointing him a savior until I see it on the field which up to this time - it hasn't happened.

Moore was a high draft pick.

Clearly the situation with the Jets was bad. The quarterback play was horrible. The OC he had run with was fired.

The Plan was trade for Moore because Berry sees his potential. The plan for him not playing well is no different than a plan for injury.

They have added other receivers. However, they believe in Moore. Early indications are very positive.

I am not anointing him. I stated before the trade was made that he was a guy we should go after. Turn on his tape. Look at how he plays.

Please don't take it personal. We can respectfully disagree. I have been watching the Browns since 1960 when I was in seventh grade.

That is a lot of history. Some good. Way more bad.

I don't predict. But I will say this team has the potential to be very good. Like most teams some things need to break their way. They are today in a better position than they have been since 1986 with Bernie.

It's my preference to keep my comments as close to football as I can. Conjecture and hypotheticals always seem to lower the quality of discourse here.

Barring injury I think the LBs on this team will be able to do the job Swartz intends for them. All indications, based on how Swartz has operated in the past, the DL will be the premier unit of his defense. If the past is prologue then the wide-9 alignment, stunts, one-gap penetration, 5-man fronts, rushing DEs from the interior and 9 or 10 man DL rotation will be keys to this defense's success. Of course, LBs will have their roles. Executing their run fis and defending TEs in the passing game are areas that come to mind.

Because Swartz wants to set the DL loose to be as disruptive as possible it will create havoc for the LBs who will have opportunities to make plays.

I think if healthy, our LB's can be good enough although I'd like to see us add another experienced one at some point. I liked Jacob Phillips when we drafted him although he hasn't shown much since he's been here. He has been hurt every season. Maybe with better health and a new scheme he can develop into a solid player.

Not all of the nineties country music was as bad as "baby likes to rock it like a boogie woogie choo choo train" my gosh that one is awful, or as bad as "welcome to earth 3rd rock from the sun" , there was some Alan Jackson, and John Andersons' "black sheep" and Forever and ever amen by the old guy.
but yeah a couple of dancing idiots I won't name, ruined country music, but even their harm only pales in comparison to a perceived realisation that any new country song has a ninety percent chance of being written by some Euro brittish guy who goes around describing stereotypical objects of country life as the main portion of lyrics..... bad Nashville..

and then knowing none of these songs are genuine.

Jordan Kunacxyk and Fields are fine linebackers, among others,

There were no Lb drafted by the Browns?
Well they didn't draft a kicker either, they must hate points.

Corner play.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2023/...newsome-martin-emerson-man-zone-coverage

This was one of my main problems with Woods. IMO he wanted the defense to play to the vision he had for the defense. He did not play to the strengths of the players.

Ward in particular. Ward is best at man. Most boundary come into the NFL having played mostly man. Of course that can vary based on where they played. But as a outside cover guy you have to play man. That is how you prove yourself. You have to match a receiver. There is off-man. And two ways to play press man. One is with hand jams and the other no hands or shadow.

Zone should be mixed in. But you should play to the strengths of your players.

We have good man corners. Use them.

The whole "Were you at Jets practice" thing is ridiculous. I mean let's be honest here. You are the anti Steve. You do the exact opposite of what you are accusing him of. I mean even the smelliest turd can be polished but it's still a turd. You are certainly right about not being able to predict the future. And I haven't seen where, in regards to Moore, that anyone has tried to do that.

Yet let's take a look at something that's at least somewhat comparable shall we? Look at how browns fans have treated OBJ based on his "behavior". What coaches did OBJ cuss out? The only real difference here is that one left the Browns and Moore just came to the Browns. Both of them demanded a trade. One used to wear a Browns uniform and one just put on a Browns uniform. That, and well, Moore actually cussed out his coach.

Does that mean he will repeat such behavior in the future? No, it most certainly doesn't. But for one to simply try to dismiss such behavior and act as though it isn't reason for concern is well, doing some major polishing. I think that's where a part of the big disconnect happens. I'm not trying to attack Moore's character. However, I'm not making silly excuses like "What do you know about Moore? Were you at practices with the Jets?" Then you go on to act like somehow it's the Jets fault he was acting like a jerk.

There are many times I agree with the Browns FO and coaching staff. There are times when I don't. Moore could turn out to be a great addition to the roster. On the other hand he could turn out to be a major distraction if history repeats itself. None of us know for sure. But I'm not foolish enough to act like what happened in New York didn't happen or blame someone else for his behavior. It's a part of the equation.

Since nobody attended any practice or has a clue about the locker room of either team.

They why act like you do? There were reports. Steve took the reports of a fallout between Moore and Mike LeFleur (who was fired).

"Can you honestly state as a fact that Moore's past disdain might not pop up again if he's not getting his own predetermined targets in the Browns offense? Afterall, he has a well-documented history."

"Moore's disdain and well documented history?"

So he knows? And it's ridiculous to call him out for implying that this could be a problem with the Browns?

Please I don't need Board police. He was trying to imply their will be a problem when he doesn't know a thing the character of Moore.

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland...moore-deshaun-watson--210752139/#2173372

So Moore is a malcontent with a history? Implication of a pattern of behavior. Please.

OBJ is not relevant. Two different cases.

I knew you would try to avoid admitting the similarities between Moore And OBJ. It's very convenient. I'm not being the board police. But once again that's a convenient way to try and dismiss someone who brought up a valid point.

Once again, how does the fact the coach was later fired excuse Moore's behavior? You do realize that you're talking about Mike LaFleur who is the current OC of the Rams, right? I think you have an issue with selective reading in this case. Steve made it plain he thought the signing of Moore was a good thing.

Moore wasn't drafted until 2021 and been with one team prior, the Jets. There are only two years of "history" to base his past behavior on. So yes, he has a history of it.

Just a slight bit of objectivity would be helpful.

Objectivity? Really. How about you apply it.

OBJ and his history has nothing to do with Moore. In any event. I never made a single comment about OBJ because I never saw any verification of his actions.

Unless I know a person or, know of someone who had direct interaction with the individual. I never make comments about another's character. I never made a remark about Baker's character. It is something I never do.

In fact I resent implicating character flaws about anyone without direct knowledge. So you making snide remarks about how convenient is total BS. OBJ is not Moore and vice versa.

So you know Moore's two year history with the Jets? I don't think so. Maybe he had every right to complain about his usage.

You may think it valid. Except you also have no proof.
https://sports.yahoo.com/insider-browns-no-character-concerns-170033926.html

See if can find anything in a scouting report, or college profile about Moore being a malcontent. He did go to college. He has lived longer than his two years with the Jets.

I don't have an issue with selective reading. What does LaFleur being the OC with the Rams have to do with him being fired by the Jets after two seasons?

Getting back to the theme of this thread, "Jim Schwartz and the defense"...

The Browns defense ranked 24th in the NFL at stopping the run.

The Browns called on everyone on the team in an attempt to correct or improve upon the defense's performance at stopping the run...and by the end of the 2022/2023 season, the best the Browns defense could produce was a 24th ranking out of the 32 NFL teams.

The Browns are not going to win a Super Bowl by ranking #24 at stopping the run and those of you who believe LBers no longer matter..."YOU HAVE BEEN PROVEN WRONG" by the team that won last season's Super Bowl...the KC Chiefs..!

While some opinions seem to be that the play of the Browns LBers no longer matters...the team that won the Super Bowl last season emphasized the play of their LBers, especially their ability to stop the run, HELPING THE CHIEFS TO WIN THE SUPER BOWL...the Chiefs had the 8th best defense at stopping the run.

The 2022 Browns, , "with their failed defensive philosophy", ranking 24th at stopping the run, have no basis in fact to claim that LBers no longer matter or that the LBer group is the "LEAST IMPORTANT DEFENSIVE GROUP" on the defensive side of the ball. While those who are big on "THEIR GUIDELINES" might promote such a defensive philosophy, the results (ranking #24) speak for themselves.

What kind of LBer does it take to win a Super Bowl...small, quick, 220 pound LBers who fly to the ball..?

OR, does it take the type of LBers the Chiefs lined up every week of the 2022/2023 season..?

The KC LBers

Nick Bolton, 5-11, 237 ... 180 total tackles, 108 solo tackles
William Gay, 6-1, 243 ... 88 total tackles, 51 solo tackles
Top Backup=Leo Chanel, 6-3, 250 ... started 8 games

Not much doubt about the CHIEFS LBers playing Super Bowl caliber football in 2022/2023.

Hopefully Schwartz will be able to upgrade the performance of the Browns LBer group, via scheme and personnel changes.

What are the Browns going to say? "We just spent a second round draft pick to trade for a player we have character concerns about"? Yeah, I didn't think so. Buying into PR statements isn't something that should be advised.

Complaining doesn't include telling your OC, to go F himself. You do realize that he was benched for disciplinary reasons immediately after the incident occurred, right?

You're the one who was trying to undercut LaFleur by pointing out he had been fired, not me. It appears as though the Rams do not share your view of him. That was a convenient thing to try and make a point of as well. Especially as I've pointed out that he holds the exact same position on a different NFL team.

Here's an article for you. As I said, I think it was a good move by Berry - low cost, low loss if it doesn't work. Take the article anyway you want - just another report on Moore.

https://www.overtimeheroics.net/2022/10/20/time-for-jets-wide-receiver-elijah-moore-to-grow-up/

Cut the crap. Coordinators moving from one team to another is common. Joe Woods is with the Saints in the same job as he had with the Browns. I would not expect him to be a OC.

Since you were mic'd up at the Jets practice you know all about the exchange?

So, you don't buy PR statements by teams but you buy into overblown reports from third parties. ok

Players usually get benched when they tell off a coach. And you think that has never happened before? Sometimes they get traded.

Receivers wanting to be thrown the ball is real uncommon. Heaven forbid cussing at football practice. How shameful.

I squared with steve big brother. Since it is so important to you that steve is protected from pointed discussion.

I read about that incident before.

No defense other than maturity at that time.

Players have personalities. Receivers are notorious. Whatever went down with the Jets? He is a Brown now.

He was traded for because it was believed he could be an asset. I love his tape. He seems to fit what the Browns need for a perceived role.

If he tells AVP to ****off then you were right.

All I can see is video after video of Tom Brady yelling at any and everybody. If we're winning, no one will care.

Dude, he was he was benched for disciplinary reasons immediately after the incident occurred. If you choose to stick your fingers in your ears and go "la, la, la" like it never happened, that's on you. Your idea of a pointed discussion is making excuses for terrible behavior when it happens if and when you finally decide to admit that it did.

He didn't "cuss at football practice". He cussed out his coach. I understand how not wishing to acknowledge the difference makes it sound better though.

Your "big brother" comment is hilarious. I actually disagreed with him about the LB'er situation with the Browns. Sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I agree with him. But your response is a reflection of our society today. It's as if when you don't agree with someone 100% of the time, you must be against them all the time. No room for shades of gray anymore.

No matter your displeasure or utopian vision of Moore, there is a reason to be concerned moving forward based on past behavior. And it was the very recent past. That doesn't mean something bad will happen. That doesn't mean there is a cause or reason to predict it will happen. What it does mean is based on recent behavior it's something to be concerned about.

That's what a realistic gray take on things look like instead of trying to pretend it's a black or white issue.

Here's a scouting report on Moore - again, take it for what it's worth - just another opinion.

https://assets-global.website-files...df859ad7b49d_CFM21_WR-s_Moore_Elijah.pdf

Elijah Moore isn't Tom Brady. But I certainly agree with you that if the Browns are winning, virtually nobody will care about anything else. And I mean nothing else. As sad as that is.

Mac....nobody has said that linebackers don't matter.

There has been more drama on this site about Moore than Moore has created with his off field actions.

His character will become apparent soon enough. Let his actions with the Browns speak for him as a person.

Agreed. Good post. The “you weren’t there so you don’t know Jack” is a weak argument

Yep.

Peen...some of your quotes concerning the LB position are listed below...

...#1..."Backer units are the weakest group because teams have the LB position at the bottom of the totem pole on the defensive unit." 

 
...#2..."Being the least important group on the defensive side, I don't know."

Thanks! The Jets game kinda broke me, and work got SUPER hectic. Now that that's mostly behind me, I'm allowing myself to hop back on the board.

I know what I said. I believe that.

I never said they aren't important. They just aren't as important as the other units.

That's exactly right. The LB's are an important piece of a D but in today's NFL not as important as a good secondary and a D-line especially edge rushers. Years back when teams played a 3-4 and offense's ran first they were probably the most important unit on D. Remember when teams came into every game and tried to ESTABLISH the run? Certainly not anymore.

Missed you, OoberN. Welcome home! Great seeing you again.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...shers-beat-out-immensely-talented-49ers/

Very interesting article about defensive position groups. Nice that the Browns are finally recognized for their edge rushers. Also, very interesting that 2 of the top ten are off the ball linebacker groups or 20% of the ranked groups. As stated about the 49ers LB group: "The duo is one of the best in the league and the backbone of a dominant 49ers defense." Maybe the LB group is not as important as the other groups in the Browns clubhouse but at least 2 winning teams think very differently.

5. Browns edge rushers
For years, the Browns pass rush began and ended with Myles Garrett -- one of the best edge rushers in the NFL. Garrett finally has a complimentary edge rusher that can help him out in Za'Darius Smith, a huge upgrade over what Jadeveon Clowney brought Cleveland last year.

Of course the pair haven't played a snap together, but their resumes speak for themselves. Garrett recorded 16 sacks last season, trailing only Nick Bosa for most in the NFL. His 73 pressures were sixth in the league and his 26 quarterback hits were tied for eighth, finishing with a 16.1% pressure rate as he earned second-team All-Pro honors. The definition of consistency for a pass rusher, Garrett has the second-most sacks (32) and tackles for loss (35) over the last two seasons, also compiling the fourth-most pressures (152).

Smith was coming off a back injury that limited him to just two games the season prior, recording his third double-digit sack season in four years. He finished with 10 sacks on the year and earned a Pro Bowl appearance.


Smith notched 78 pressures and 24 quarterback hits in 2022, finishing with a pressure rate of 16.7%. He finished fourth in the league in pressures. Of pass rushers with more than 500 defensive snaps, Smith was behind only Nick Bosa, Micah Parsons, and Trey Hendrickson in pressure rate.

Two of the top edge rushers in the NFL are on the same defensive line. The Browns pass rush should feast in 2023, even if the depth behind Garrett and Smith is still in question.

49'ers - Yes.

Ravens - not so much. R. Smith very good. Patrick Queen, please.

Peen...No doubt about "THE BROWNS devaluing the LB group", especially under the leadership of those calling the shots over the last 3 yrs or so....under GM Berry and DC Woods.

Many are counting on the Browns new Defensive Coordinator, Jim Schwartz to fix what is wrong with the Browns defense. Schwartz played LBer in High School and lettered all 4 yrs in college, playing LB at Georgetown. Schwartz went on to coach the LBer position in college and in the Pros before being named as a Defensive Coordinator for the Titans, Bills and Eagles as well as HC of the Lions.

I do not expect Jim Schwartz to devalue the importance of the Browns LB position like Joe Woods did in past few years.

Also, it would not surprise me if the Browns added additional LB talent. Whatever it takes to improve the Browns defense.

So what has been done to address the LB'er position during this off season under Schwartz? Is it your contention that Schwartz hasn't been current in keeping up with the changes to the NFL since he played in college? How you have so many more passing teams with multiple WR sets now than you did then? That you need to have LB'ers who can cover in the backfield? Or are you suggesting that Schwartz was insistent on upgrading the LB'er position during the off season and the Browns FO ignored him?

pit...obviously you did not read my post above yours where I posted ...

[quote]No doubt about "THE BROWNS devaluing the LB group", especially under the leadership of those calling the shots over the last 3 yrs or so....under GM Berry and DC Woods.
/quote]

Concerning DC Schwartz..his record speaks for itself..

On January 19, 2016, Schwartz was hired by the Philadelphia Eagles to be their defensive coordinator under coach Doug Pederson. Inheriting one of the league's worst defenses, Schwartz made an immediate impact. Implementing his 4-3 defense, Schwartz turned around the defense that previously ranked 30th in yards allowed and 28th in points allowed to 13th and 12th in his first season and fourth in both categories during his second. He would eventually lead the defense to his and the Eagles' first Super Bowl championship in Super Bowl LII. On January 7, 2021, Schwartz announced that he was going to step away from coaching due to health issues and resigned from the Eagles. link

I can't imagine Schwartz being persuaded in coming to Cleveland without having some say in the overhaul of the defense. It seems as though you can. And while you posted how great his defense was in 2021 what you did not address was the LB position on that defense. From a consistency standpoint his top 2 LB'ers were ranked 23rd and 26th. There was no other LB'er on that roster who ranked in the top 50. While it's certainly better than what the Browns have it is a clear indication he didn't accomplish that championship defense by having the top LB'ers in the NFL by any means.

https://fftoday.com/tools/crank.php...Starters=1&View=Games&LeagueID=1

pit...I'm not relying on some FANTASY STATS but I am referring to Schwartz's ability to improve and build the Browns defense capable of winning a real Super Bowl.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the LB'er position.

It does show that Schwartz can have a very effective defense without top tier LB’s

ok

How much credit needs to go to the eagle offense. in 20Ifive, twenty fifteen, the Eagles had Chip Kelly OC and sam Bradford at @B.
Bradford had a weak TD to int ratio.
30th in yards and 28th in points bc the twenty fifteen eagle offense couldn't keep itself on the field,
which artificially would make the eagle D look worse, in twenty fifteen,
Which
would, in MY book, take away from any D improvement made by the new coordinator Schwartx in 20I6, because,
if the Offense got better Under Pederson and Wentx?
then the D would get better without improving, like drafting in Nascar, the car goes faster while using less power.

Much like the Browns, until they figure out how to play offense on game days
it won't matter HOW great they build the defense.

The Offense has to be able to keep itself on the field, or get scores when leaving the field.

and the Defense,

it needs to score points

I am really confused about how this LB conversation is still going on.

Remember back to last year's games. What sticks out about our defense?

1. Secondary breakdowns (Jets game)
2. Defensive line getting owned on running plays (see Atlanta game)
3. Questionable coaching

I'm not saying our LB group is a room of world-beaters, but they were also so far down the list of things to worry about. The only thing I might be worried about is #1 on that list since our personnel changes have been minimal (I know that we signed safeties and got rid of JJ3, but those busted coverages were usually a tandem effort between a CB and a safety, no?)... however, I think a lot of that leftover worry is mitigated by addressing #3.

oobs...first, welcome back...we should probably expect the subject matter of this thread to continue until the fans can see improvement in the defense's performance, comparing 2022 vs 2023.

While I agree with your noticing #1.#2 and #3, I will add that I constantly caught myself saying to myself...OH NO, who is covering the flat..?

...then watching our Browns defensive players looking at each other as if to say, it wasn't my responsibility to cover the flat.

From game one of last season to late in the season, Woods was unable to adjust the Browns defense to insure that the flat was defended.

I expect to see improvement in the basic area of defensive responsibility each Browns defensive player is responsible for...know your assignment..then execute it.

I think that, to a large degree, this defense is so strong ON PAPER that we are all expecting them (and have been expecting) to be playing unbelievable ball. I have to keep reminding myself that this group hasn't done much more than disappoint so far. They gotta go out there and do it.

Still, I'm optimistic as I think we've taken steps to address each of our main weaknesses.

And there you have it. That's one of the big reasons he is no longer here. Terrible communication on the defense. Even with all of the talent in the secondary we saw some of the same thing. I still have no idea what that has to do with your seeming need to harp about the LB'ers.

There is no need, but it is what it is.

Rome was not built in a day, and linebacker was not as important as the DL for the Schwartz defense.

It is not that hard to figure out.

We could have Lavonte David and Fred Warner playing, and we would build around that. But the Browns had more urgent needs.

The defense should be improved. We will see how the Browns do against the run and if they can get off the field on 3rd downs. Can not allow teams to drive down the field resulting in a TD or FG. Schwartz's schemes should let the playmakers on D shine. Let's see if the Browns defense can get a stop with the game on the line.

Something that this discussion keeps circling but hasn't pinpointed is that Schwartz's scheme is intended to be simpler and more aggressive. From media reports that I've seen most of the blown coverage issues came from the multitude of variables in Woods' zone coverages. Guys were thinking too much and at times being confused about their assignments. Schwartz is expected to play much more man coverage. So DBs can play more instinctually.

Similarly, the DLs first priority will be one-gap penetration. Although I think there will be a heavy use of stunts to get favorable DL matchups so the front 7 can be disruptive. LBs will obviously have their run fits to support the DL.

So some of the same players who had problems with Woods' zone-heavy scheme will have different and hopefully more opportunities to make plays in the new scheme.

In addition the strength of our corners is man coverage. We played zone a lot last season. I don't have the numbers and don't feel like getting them.

But, Ward, Newsome, and Emerson are very good man guys and I believe they will benefit from playing under Schwartz.

I've seen stats from last season, don't remember if they were PFF or whatever, the Browns secondary graded out much better in man coverage than in zone. I think it's been mentioned in some of these threads.

Yeah it has been. Our CBs are considered, generally, better at man but we played a lot of zone. That was an excellent post you wrote about the D and Jim’s defence, btw.

As my chinese friends would say "Ed Zackery"

no doubt. I am over simplifying things here, but D is about read and react.

Our corners are good enough to stick close to their guy for the first 15 yards. After that the pass rush needs to be pinching on the QB to rush the throw. I think we now have some guys not named Garrett who can do that. Clowney could do that but I am not sure Woods didn't have him in some sort of contain, set the edge first type situation

If we get pressure, which Schwartz's D is set up to do then we should be in pretty good shape. Teams are going to still complete passes, and with man. sometimes the receiver is going to shake his man and we will give up a big play. That's football, but I am pretty encouraged with the prospect of a pretty decent D.

It's all new, so I am not expecting a top 5 D or anything like that this year. I will agree with a point Mac hammers that we could get better at the backer position, but I do expect to see a natural improvement with a better defensive front. The best backers usually have at least one tackle who can command at least attention by a guard and center. Ray Lewis thrived to a large degree because he had the Goose in front of him. If a center can handle one of the DT's, a guard is free and he can push a backer all over the field, all day long. That said, I can see us as a top 15 D. Maybe pushing near top 10.

You can win with that.

Unit play is critical in football.

The defense begins with the defensive front. That unit keys the second level and then the secondary.

Schwartz wants the front fresh. He wants a strong rotation of players along the line to keep all of them fresh.

This camp will be fun to follow because that rotation is still to be determined. Hurst could be a guy to keep an eye on. He has good tape but has been injured. He could play a big role if he can stay healthy.

If Schwartz can get high production and consistent pressure from his front. The rest should fall into place. Walker is a smart player. Hopefully he is fully recovered. I expect JOK to play better and have more impact in the second level.

Our secondary should be improved. We have depth at corner and good starters. The safety's will have a more defined role under Schwartz. McLeod knows the Schwartz system. Thornhill was signed to play in this system. Depit should benefit from their experience.

Defense in Camp will be really important. They do not have the luxury to work it all out by mid season. They have to come out ready to play for game one.

J/C
I'm linking an article from the PD about the play of Linebackers in Schwartz's scheme. The article illuminates several points of discussion from this thread. Whether it will inform any posters' opinions is up to the reader. What it does is provide tangible, visible evidence of how LBs and DL in Schwartz's scheme are intended to work in tandem.
Good article

I'm getting a "server not found" message when clicking on the link you provided.

Good link to a good article

Thanks for the correction. It was much what I had expected with some new information in how Schwartz forces the opposing offense to react to his defense rather than the other way around.

He did say it would be up to the reader to inform opinions... :-p

The main thing I'm getting from that is while the new scheme SHOULD help to keep OL off of our linebackers, and help our defense play fast overall, it still requires our LBs to be consistent tacklers. Other than JOK and maybe Walker, do we have guys that will consistently step up and make the stop?

I’ve always liked what Takitaki brings to the table, I think he’s a solid tackler especially against the run.JMO.

LBs will have to make plays there is no doubt about that. The Browns front has been notorious for misalignment in past versions that contributed to poor tackling. Another factor is in previous defensive systems the DL hadn't been schemed to reset the line of scrimmage to the degree that the Schwartz system will require. Players have to supply proper technique, consistency and effort. I'm certain that Schwartz knows what that looks like play-in and play-out. If it's evident our LB unit isn't meeting expectations I'd like to think there will be no hesitation to make changes. There is too much at stake this season for mediocrity.

he's one of our most reliable dudes, especially from an effort standpoint. I agree.

From when we first drafted him I always liked Jacob Phillips. He hasn't shown a lot and has been injured too but I'm hoping under JS he can finally be the player here he was in college. If I remember correctly when he came out they said he was a good tackler and played sideline to sideline. Hope Js can bring that type of play out of him.

This is a solid read, Guard Dawg; I just got back to it. On paper, it seems to address, and hopefully correct, issues that happened regularly last season. Making the offense perform and react to you on D is good football. I like the constant pressure, even in "vanilla" sets in the base. It just seems logically correct. If we gave people some trouble with the Woods scheme, then this seems like it has to cause more mayhem IMO. I am anxious to see it. Go, Browns!

PS We are undefeated!

I agree... hoping his rehab has gone well... not sure what we'll get out of him this year....

the offense is the problem, and that starts with the coach, the kicker, and the passing inside the opponents 30.
Coach Kevin can't get a hit with runners in scoring position, for a baseball analogy
game situational decisions.

Analytics only puts your team in position to tell the other team, how hard they have to work... to beat you, and b/c it's the NFL, they do, ... ten times out of 20.

the defense is mostly fine, you have to score fifty points a game,
and that fifty by your offense is what defense is all about,
it doesn't make sense until...
but your defense needs a good offense to be a good defense
and then
your offense needs to be good against a good defense, to help your own defense be good.

everything is about offense, everything,
even trying to be a good defense, starts with your offense trying to control the game, and dictate to the other team what your team is capable of,
even the field goal kicking, starts with the offense.

it's ninety nine point nine percent about offense and the rest is making sure the offense puts the defense in a position to capitalize on the other teams offense being put in a jam, by your own teams offense, earlier, which means the other teams offense has to take chances and makes a mistake
which can lead to a defensive score ... which is the result of your own offense doing well, before, when they were on the field,
even wwii was started by offense,
finished by offense and everything in between was offense...
except the Russian,? except the siege of the russian city, and maybe a few wolf pack uboat actions.

anybody heard?

Browns LB Sione Takitaki feels ready to 'make a big comeback' after recovery from torn ACL

After spending the tail end of his 2022 campaign on injured reserve, Cleveland Browns linebacker Sione Takitaki feels he is ready to start the new season healthy and good to go.

Takitaki's fourth year in the NFL ended prematurely when he suffered a torn ACL in Week 13 against the Houston Texans. Seven months later, the 28-year-old is preparing for another campaign and planning to make a resurgence on the field.

"I am excited," Takitaki said on an episode of Best Podcast Available, via the team’s website. "The rehab process has been going well. I like where I am at. Just been rehabbing a ton and just trying to get back to physical form. I like where I am and feel we can make a big comeback. I am ready to help anywhere I can."

Although Takitaki had an unfortunate ending to his season, he still played in a total of 12 games, starting eight. During 2022, Takitaki recorded 36 solo tackles, 71 combined tackles and one quarterback hit. The 80th overall pick of the 2019 NFL Draft also logged one sack and one forced fumble.

Despite the season-ending injury, Takitaki re-signed with Cleveland on a one-year deal in March after his rookie contract expired. Now, as he is going into his fifth year with Cleveland, Takitaki hopes to resurrect his skill set to help the Browns' defense succeed under new leadership in defensive coordinator Jim Schwartz.

The Browns added Schwartz this offseason to bring new ideas and take on a leadership role to help the defense prosper. Schwartz has a long résumé, but one of the most notable achievements from his coaching career came during the 2017 campaign when he helped lead the Eagles' defense to Philadelphia's first-ever Super Bowl win. Now, as Schwartz takes on the job of leading the Browns' defense back to the postseason, Takitaki anticipates that with his new DC, he can even get more action out on the field.

"We have a lot of character guys and talent in the defensive room, and he comes in and sets the tone," Takitaki said. "That's one thing I just feel was his leadership presence. Not to tell so much about the scheme, but as a linebacker, I can get some sacks. I am excited about that."

Training camp is set to begin this week, which will ramp up Takitaki's rehab and help him gain the strength he needs for a smooth transition back.

https://www.nfl.com/news/browns-lb-sione-takitaki-feels-ready-to-make-big-comeback-torn-acl

awesome thanks

Thanks


I didn't expect any real hangup. ACL repair is fairly routine stuff these days. It just takes 10 or so months to fully heal.

No doubt there can be complications. Infection being the #1 complication, as we saw with Bentley 15 years ago. If that was a problem, we probably would have known about that some months ago.

It appears from camp reports that the players are responding well to Schwartz and the scheme he wants to play.

Knowing the draft profile reports of the secondary. Ward, Newsome, and Emerson were guys who excelled at man coverage.

How the defense plays under Schwartz will be super important. If players believe in what they are being taught. That alone goes a long way in how they perform.

I’m very confident in our D. Lots of talent, a great coordinator, so if we stay healthy I expect that we’ll be a formidable unit. My biggest worry about this team is Watson, and if can recapture his form. And oh yeah I’m somewhat concerned about our kicker. But that’s another topic

Of all the many moves the Browns have made since the end of last season. It maybe that hiring Schwartz will be the most productive.

The defensive players are being coached and held accountable. Their roles have been clearly defined. In listening to different defensive players from Myles to Newsome and others like Shelby Harris. The scheme fits the players. Za'Darius is another guy along with Tomlinson free agents that want to play this scheme.

I would not put this into the hype column. It is an observation. It still has to transfer to results.

However, I am encouraged. The defense last year was not good. It has to improve in order to succeed.

There's a long way to go to prove the theory... But I agree. I was 100% amped to land Schwartz and I think he'll make this a very very good D. I think we'll look at what he does with players like MG, JOK and even Delphitt and realize how incompetent Woods is/was. Still scratch my head at the love that hlguy got.

Ya know in theory I didn't have a problem with Woods.

I don't believe the problem was his scheme. IMO what became the problem was that he didn't change or adapt.

When problems started with communications and then assignments. It was not working. Ward, Newsome, Emerson were guys who excelled at man coverage. Woods kept to his ideas.

In addition Berry did not help him. The DL outside of Myles was not good. DT became a liability. Centers and guards were taking out linebackers.

Berry saw the reality. So, he revamped the DL. Schwartz was given the defense. I am sure he had a hand in player selection in FA and the draft on defense.

This defense now is Jim Schwartz's defense. If the defense can get into the upper third in rankings. We should do well.

I think his obvious intention to play more man coverage and allowing JOK to be more of a read and react LB'er from what I've seen in the preseason indicates that he has his pulse on using players to their strengths. Often times coaches have talent at their disposal but by not putting them into the position to play to their strengths handcuffs them from reaching their full potential on the field. This basic fundamental alone shows me every indication this D will perform much better and be much more effective.

In these preseason games, even though the personnel has been mainly depth the intensity and aggressiveness have been noticeable. The reports out of the inter-squad practices with the Eagles from day 2 when the Eagles were forced to react to the Browns' defensive performance from day 1 made a statement as well. Diabate showed what linebacking can look like in this scheme. Hurst rounding into form, Ika making a goal-line stop, and Hickman coming up with multiple INTs. I'm sure I'm missing something but the indicators are trending upward.

The game Saturday against the Chiefs will be fun to watch.

So, far the defense has been playing straight up 4-3 and sometimes 4-4. But we have not seen the big dawgs hunt.

Myles and Z can bring it. Now with Tomlinson and Harris inside. I want to see them get up field. Z and Obo are way better than Clowney in pure pass rushing. Clowney's strength IMO was backside against the rush.

Juan Thornhill's presser today was interesting. He said at practice the front is getting fast pressure. He said two back pedals and the ball is out because the front is closing fast. Juan was very upbeat about Schwartz and the defense.

Wow time is flying. Come Sunday two weeks and game on.

I am cautiously optimistic. I am trying to be objective about the roster. It looks like we have the talent. At the same time I have no illusions about how talented the AFC is. The North by most accounts is going to be the toughest division. I believe that.

Games are very close. It will not be easy. Hopefully it will be fun.

As you eluded to the season will be tough as it always is. And yes, the AFC North is most certainly one of, if not the most tough divisions in the NFL. As per usual the preseason is played using very vanilla and simplistic schemes on both O and D. So we most certainly haven't seen the bag of tricks that will both be deployed on O with watson at QB nor what Schwartz has dialed up on D. I can say I haven't been this optimistic about the Browns possibility of being a top 10 NFL team since before our return in 1999. In order to be in it at the end you must first be a top 10 team or you won't be there to have a shot in the first place.

There are of course injuries which could occur that can greatly impact that and of course how watson performs that will be major ingredients in all of this that remain to be seen. But there is certainly just cause to believe it's a real possibility.

I said it when we got Schwartz: he might be the best coaching hire - including any HC- we’ve made since the return.

What's amazing id that he actually got his start here before The Move.
Look up "The Slappies" from the Belichick era. That was one impressive collection of burgeoning talent.


We're lucky to have him at 76 Groza.

With the possible exception of SKI, I think our FO and Coaching staff is all pro elite. Ski, the jury is still out on him IMHO. Should be no excuses this year.

If Jim Schwartz is successful in turning the Browns defense around improving their 14th ranking in total defense...given his previous experience as a defensive coordinator and as a Head Coach...he could be a candidate as the Browns next HC, if Stefanski fails to produce.

It may be that Schwartz has no desire to be a HC again so this line of discussion is nothing but speculation.

It's possible. I'd also say Ventrone has a chance at that since he is asst. head coach.

No doubt Schwartz has more experience, but special teams coordinators have gone to head coach. Cower comes to mind. Given Ventrones relative youth, I'd say he might have the upper hand...assuming he has the chops for the job. If you are the owner I would think you would be hoping that whoever you hired it could become a 10+ year marriage.

Who even knows if Schwartz wants to be a head coach again? Some coaches are more comfortable as a DC

Right.

For some, it is a "been there, done that" and don't want that anymore.

There is nothing wrong with being defensive coordinator, or vice president, or machine operator if that is where you are comfortable and competent.

The "Peter Principal" says you reach your level of incompetence. Nothing wrong with that unless you can't accept it..

Don't forget, we have a offensive line coach who has been a more than decent HC- people, as they age, know what they want to do and don't have to put up with the BS head coaches put up with....money wise, I doubt either of the guys mentioned- Sw or BC need money- so.....I think SKI is safe from the current coaches- he does need to produce this year- all the pieces are currently available.....BUT, luck, magic, injuries, FGs- who can predict the future. Hope Browns stay healthy and have fab year.

Completely agree with you and peen. I’m just speculating here but a guy like Schwartz has plenty enough money, he isn’t stupid so he didn’t squander his savings at the track. He might not want to tolerate the BS, as you said, that being a HC presents. Just wants to focus on building a great defence, making players better.

It’s like being a teacher in the school system: I’ve known teachers who don’t want to be the school principal, they get their satisfaction teaching the kids.

I think being a good to great coordinator, one who has the respect of his players and peers, would be the place I’d want to be if were a coach at that level, or any level.

Another thing folks don't consider is the mental and physical drain of managing the whole team---HC, he's got ALL the coaches, assistants, and 53 plus players to know, evaluate, plan the integration....as DC, you cut that in less than half-----LOT EASIER. Plus, we all have our best talents in certain areas- Callahan cuts his numbers down again by a lot. Good thing for SKI is he can go talk to these guys and get a NO BS answer--- I sure hope we smoke the Bangles right off the bat and build on it....GO Browns!!!

D did their job- limited points and gave ball back to O over and over again.....outstanding job- one game- Schwartz, keep them humble and hungry- GO Browns!!!

That's the most inspired defense we've had in my lifetime. And that's not an exaggeration

Browns defense wore down the Bengals defense. How? They literally keep them on the field most of the game.

Doug Farrar has a pretty good article on our defensive performance here:

link

great write up ... I loved the way they moved Garrett like the queen on a chess board

Kind of funny that Garrett pretty much told him he was going to cross him up, and he still crossed him up.

Classic.

watch every high school kid in America try to do that Friday night

Browns defense was elite

"This is a good Brown's team"

The weather for Monday Night looks perfect.

This game will be interesting because weather should not be a factor. We get to validate.

IMO what we saw from the defense was no weather fluke. Sure it was a factor in gripping the ball.

However, it was not a factor in qb pressure or in coverage. What we did up front in moving guys around and rushing from all kinds of angles will be part of what we will do. The coverage by the secondary was not influenced by weather. The coverage was like the receivers had an extra layer of skin. Emerson, Ward, and Newsome are now doing what they are best at man coverage.

Elliott was not a factor but he doesn't really need to be. If he can occupy his man and hold his ground. We have others to clean up. Plus we have a rotation at DT to go to.

Ogbo had a damn good game. That is a big deal because we can play Ogbo and Z at DE and move Myles to middle linebacker up over center to attack the gap he wants to use. It frees him to use any move he wants to attack. There is no player in the NFL like Myles Garrett. Schwartz played Myles close to 50/50 at LDE and RDE. Then he moved him into the middle for some confusion. Nasty. The center had no chance.

Conclusion, IMO is the defense is the real McCoy or the real Schwartz.

Hopeful, the sample size is/was ONE- now all teams will adjust- time will tell IF our Defense is better than GOOD. We had our first significant injury, Conklin, hopefully we don't have anymore- Rogers lasted FOUR plays. Lady Luck please be with us. GO Browns!!!!

Monday will be interesting for our defense. They have good skill guys, just like the Bengals. And the Steelers will have seen some film of us (and us of them).

I predict a low scoring affair for both teams

Best advice for the Browns defensive coaches, players and the Browns management...

...DON'T READ YOUR PRESS CLIPPINGS...

Focus on the Steelers, knowing they are going to take it to the Browns if we let them do it.

Do your homework and put in the work to insure that your defense is prepared.

bingo ... stay that hungry and aggressive and loose. Don't lose the edge

I'm in wait and see mode. I'm cautiously optimistic, but being aggressive is "easy" when its difficult for opponents to change direction due to field conditions. I'm a bit worried about missed tackles cropping up on a cleaner field and Cinci missed some potential big plays due to slips and stumbles. There was an Evans (?) run that looked like he had room to the left if he hadn't gone down on his own that stood out.

I also think Pitt left some plays on the field and Pickett was bad. As good as the 49ers D's stats look, I think a lot of it was the Steelers (offense in particular) playing awful. I expect them to execute much better next week. There's also officiating not being as loose going forward to consider.

But we could play better, too. Even if Pitt plays better, that team has some limitations we should be able to take advantage of.

Hopefully the players don't think they have arrived and keep their edge and continue improving. I think Schwartz and Stefanski will have a good plan for that.

Members with much much better knowledges then me can correct me if I'm off the rails but this was my take away's when comparing Schwartz defensive strategy to last season. Three things that stood out and I clearly noticed.

a) Much more unpredictable formations and tactical intentions. There where moments when the Bengal's Oline and QB looked idealess. In the end looked clueless and their facial expressions said it all.

b) More focused commitement before, under and after the snap. I saw a collective togetherness with positive aggressivity and joy that was like a storm wind in the face of the opponents.

c) Communication and execution. Right man at the right place. Good communication and understanding between players and coaches. Acting as a collective with a positive body language no matter the outcome. Walk and talk as physical an dtactical superiors sends the right message to teammates, the crowd and to each others.

Well done!


Maybe its a little bite bit premature to be so overly positive but as Browns fan I take my chances when I get them. Life is short and I'm old so right now I just enjoy a moment of the flow of this week good mood.

The fact that there was less confusion on our own side of the ball vs the opponent on what the D was supposed to do was a huge step up.

Jake Burns said this too ... way less confusion last game than any game last season

Man coverage has a great deal to do with that.

Everything you stated comes into play.

It begins with a defensive philosophy. The DC sets the tone. This is the defense and this is how we will develop our playing personality.

Look at the skill sets of your existing players. Understand what they do best. Bring in players who will fit into what you are trying to form.

Coach them hard and hold players accountable to reinforce what you want them doing. Make sure the players buy in and know their jobs.

Communication is part of every play. Have players on the field acting as coaches on the field. Veteran guys who you trust.

Jim Schwartz has the reputation of doing precisely what is listed above and players know that.

And after last year and what the players saw this last game, they should be willing to run through a wall for Schwartz.

This. Schwatrz has gotten this defense to play as a unit. He is certainly using them to accentuate their skill sets. It has and I believe will continue to do wonders for the Browns defense. But at the same time it's most certainly true that man coverage takes far less communication than zone.

I think the true test of the D will come when they inevitably face some adversity and have to respond to it. We can't let things snowball like they have in the past.

We've always matched up well vs the Bengals. I'm really glad we won and everything, but despite their injuries I'm worried about a pissed off Steelers team.

https://twitter.com/Nate_Tice/status/1701289516848521223

OH my!! Probably even better than any of us thought.

For the record I would have said this prior to last week but we have more talent almost everywhere. I’m in the minority in that I personally just don’t believe in Pickett. I also think this team, for whatever reason, rises to the bait of national games. If we don’t win this game and pretty decisively I’ll have serious questions. They’ll probably start with the QB.

I'm happy we don't have to cope with their DT- Watt is plenty. We lost RT, but "may" have a decent replacement- I'm also looking forward to seeing Watson throw a dry ball- I think we'll win.....GO Browns!!!!

THAT is the difference in this year and last. Last year the Defensive players were asked to see the wall, study the wall, think gee is it better to run through the wall, run around the wall, or go over the wall. All that thinking leads to a slow... s..l..o.w defense. Now we run though the wall and destroy anything with the ball.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This game will really define who we are this year I think. We have recent history of being able to handle the bengals .... not so much the steelers. Tomlin will make sure they're ready for us after that embarrassing performance. I see a close game with us winning and maybe finally getting a little respect around the league if we can get two division wins this early.

we've basically shown that we want to play offense with the defense, which I enjoy

well take that all year

Damn, that was not a lot of time.

Whether one questions the QB position depends on the performance of the QB and not who "won the game decisively". I've seen QB's play well and still lose games or win by very small margins. While I don't think it's wrong to question watson on a game by game basis at this point, I think it's much too early to question him as a QB overall.

The difference as I see it is that with the exception of the last game against the Bengals in 2022 we had a good winning streak against them. With both the steelers and the ravens the games tend to be much closer overall even when the talent doesn't seem that close. While I do think the browns can win by a large margin I wouldn't at all be surprised if the margin is closer than I think it could be. There is something to be said about most division rivalries.

Spread less than 3 points- Browns soared, Steelers tanked at home- LESS than 3....agree lots of teams don't like each other- Browns/Ravens, Steelers, Bengals- Chiefs/Raiders, Cowboys/Redskins, etc....I'm hoping Watson hits some long ones to open up Chubb even more, and Miles against Steeler center- dang, they got PROBLEMS. Go Browns!!!

I would have thought that the spread would have been larger than that but then I think the odds makers may have taken into consideration that the Browns haven't beaten the Steelers at their home stadium for 19 games in a row. The last time the Browns beat the Steelers at their home during the regular season was in 2003 and Tim couch was the Browns QB. I however don't believe that in any way reflects the difference between the Browns superior talent as it is now.

I don't pay attention to point spreads unless I am betting, which I don't do very often. Points are established by the book to even out the betting on each game. If one team is drawing to much money, the points are adjusted to get more money on the other team.

It more about the sports books and betting over anything it has to do with the game.

I believe that's true to a great extent. The reason I pay so much attention to the betting line is that I am in the pickum pool Hooper has been running since what seems like forever now. As such you pick against the line every week. And while I think you're right that they even out the bets by using the line, for some strange reason it still ends up being eerily close to accurate a lot of the time.

That is true as well. If the Bookies made predictions that are way off, someone is going to lose their butt. All I am saying is I don't pay much attention to if it is a good way to forecast if we win or lose. The books don't care who wins or loses as long as they get fairly equal money each way.

And I didn't make it clear in the previous post, it was more a general comment and not really directed at any one person.

players always know most

The people inside know what they are looking at.

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/arti...ise_for_browns_defense/s1_16697_39260826

Bengals QB coach "we will be talking about the Browns defense like they are talking about Dallas now."

More than anything this is encouraging because defensive play can translate week to week.

Schwartz has these guys playing team united defense. Playing together. Communicating.

All the things that were lacking last year.

I want to see what they do when they get smacked in the mouth during a game. Last weekend was awesome to watch, but I'm only cautiously optimistic.

Hear ya, oober. We won’t dominate every week in the manner in which we dispatched Cinci. We need to see them play very good D on a consistent basis. It’s much too early to make ‘85 Bears‘ comparisons, but if we stay healthy this defence will keep us in a lot of games.

No doubt, one game doesn't make a season. Schwartz said as much in his PC. I agree with something Boner mentioned. What we saw can carry over.

No matter what, players can always control preparation, attitude, and determination. What happened the week before or in the current game doesn't have to impact those things.

Spot on and I agree. Want to see them win a gut check and win it convincingly. Schwartz needs to receive a pillow with his magic word cross-stitched on it: "Badassery." I will forever have that word and attitude paired with him. LOL

What we are seeing is exactly what we needed to see. We have been outmuscled, bullied, and plain out hustled last few years. I am eager to watch some more hungry defense. I suspect and I hope that badassery is contagious. Our DC is the spark and the fuse. Go, Browns!

It is a pretty good word!

jc...

I'm concerned that Schwartz might have his defense 'too amped-up'... leading to a poor defensive performance Monday night.

I would want my defense to be emotional and confident but the Browns defense must be smart and prepared for the unexpected.

As someone wrote earlier, the Steelers seem to have a knack of taking advantage of their opponents stupid mistakes, allowing their opponents to beat themselves.

Just play smart football...

The other side of that coin, however, is that the Steelers are NOT the Steelers of the past, and this team does not appear - thus far - to be like any Browns team from our past.

Honestly, I fully expect this game to beat an unholy beatdown of the Steelers by us. That isn't be being a fanboy and getting overly hyped, because the "fan" in me is pretty well dead at this point; this is just looking at it objectively. Their OLine is kinda trash and their DLine just took some MAJOR hits. There is literally NO EXCUSE for us to not outright control the trenches completely on both sides. If our secondary does what it showed it can do, they don't have the WR's to challenge ANY of them.

That said, it is a division game, and those always seem to play closer than they should for like three quarters, but honestly, barring mistakes on our part, I see little reason that they should be in the game at all by the end of the 3rd.



For the last several years, pretty much ALL of us on here have been screaming at our keyboards for a DLine like we have now. Somehow, mst everyone on this board could see that our DT's weren't up to standards, but Berry simply wouldn't deliver on fixing that and we got what we saw. Bad defense. The same thing applies for our WR corps, but that is for another topic, not one on defense.
Those transgressions have had amends made and now we're seeing what we had hoped to see the past several seasons: a DLine that is capable of stopping the run AND killing a QB's dreams while giving him PTSD.

When last season ended Berry knew he messed up. Credit to him for looking in the mirror and concluding. This is ending right now. Woods was fired.

Jim Schwartz was quickly hired and given full reign to fix the defense. I have no doubt that Schwartz had a big impact from that point on as to what defensive players were added.

It did not take long for Schwartz to make an impact on the players. He coaches hard. He makes the players accountable. He brings the same energy every day. He formed them into a united unit to play team ball.

I listened to Jason Kelce from the Eagles. He said that after that week of practice. They knew the Browns DL would be a serious challenge to any team.

Looking at the OL of the Steelers versus the DL of the Browns from PFF grades. It looks like a mismatch.

This is not the Steelers of old or the Browns of old.

Outside of weird turnovers and wild special teams plays. This does not look like a close game on paper.

Games are played on fields and nothing is for certain. However, this game may change the course of the North.

Berry might have knew he messed up. Or big investments in that D-line may have been a demand from Schwartz to accept the job as DC in Cleveland. I would highly doubt Schwartz would accept a job where he was destined to fail considering the weakness of that D-line. It's a question we'll never truly know the answer to.

Most of us knew he messed up before last season started.

This usually when the Browns , in this case, have their offense, on the field.
More often you lose with your offense on the field, against a team with a really good defense.

True.

I think that's mostly true.

I also think the Watson suspension created a 'stand pat' situation on a few fronts though. Maybe it became easier to play close to the vest in defensive investments, so that we could see if there was any chance in hell of Woods panning out? It's a lot easier to secure your next DC when he knows you aren't married to bad contracts and have plenty of ammo to let him craft his defense the way he sees fit.

Just my over-analyzed, esoteric two cents.

As in his face looks “Ed Zackery” like his butt?

Did Berry mess up..?

Berry was saddled with Pre-established limits that were established in 2016 by the analytics group...

...THE GUARDRAILS... note: the link added for reference...link

In 2022 Berry, with the total support of DC Woods, continued to operate under the Browns Pre-established Guardrails.

Why didn't Berry secure the defensive help that was needed in 2022...?..good question.
...was Berry operating independently or under a top-down management style..?
...Berry is the #3 man in the organization working under ownership (Jimmy+Dee, Whitney, JW)...
...and CSO-DePodesta (the author of the Guardrails)

After the 2022 season, it was obvious that the Browns needed better coaching on the defensive side and Woods was fired.

So what changed from 2022 and 2023..?

IMO, in 2023, with the arrival of Jim Schwartz, he was allowed to build his defense his way. Ownership supported Schwartz, opening the checkbook to acquire the players Schwartz needed. Berry also supported Schwartz by doing all he could to secure the players Schwartz needed.

One game does not make a season so we need to see more from the Defense before we make any final conclusion.

jmo, mac

I don't think any of us know the answers to your questions.

I think all we can hope for is Depo has a good game plan for tomorrow's game.

Do you know for a fact the "guardrails" used when building the team are the "guardrails" of today?

Looks like not. Looks like we are smart enough to change as situations change. Building a team and finishing a team are different things.

Once again 100 percent bullcrap. Berry has not been saddled with anything.



In 2022 Woods was given the total support or Berry and the rest of the Browns staff, just like Schwartz is being given now. The difference is Woods was not good enough at his job, and Schwartz is.

Why didn't Berry secure the defensive help that was needed in 2022...?..good question.
...was Berry operating independently or under a top-down management style..?
...Berry is the #3 man in the organization working under ownership (Jimmy+Dee, Whitney, JW)...
...and CSO-DePodesta (the author of the Guardrails)

Why didn't Woods ask for help instead of saying he thought we were good?
Berry was working within the framework the Browns have set up. Advice is asked for and listen to from multiple sources including Stefanski, Schwartz (and Woods before him) and every Coach and scout as well as the Analytics Department with the Browns. Berry is in charge of processing that info and making the decisions. At no time has Berry been working UNDER Depo

Your which hunt is getting really old bud.

Hell even your IT guy Yes That's what Chris Pokorny does for a living. He is an IT guy, states at the end of his article "Presumably, the Guardrails document doesn’t exist under John Dorsey. That’s not to say the principles aren’t in practice, as much of them should be common to all NFL teams."

peen...Obviously something did change in 2023.

Not only did the Browns hire Jim Schwartz as DC in 2023 but it appears that the age related GUARDRAILS that Depo established in 2016, suddenly "disappeared" ...

...the Browns roster that ranked #1 in 2022, the youngest roster in the NFL with an average age of 25.1, the Browns 2023 roster ranked 18th in the NFL with a 25.9 average age.

Why is important for the Browns to add older players the roster...along with older players comes MORE NFL EXPERIENCE.

Experience is a critical factor in the development of a young player. Clearly DC Schwartz made the Browns know what kind of players he would be looking to add to his defense if the Browns hired him.

The Browns trend toward a roster of younger players with less NFL experience appears to have ended and I see that as a plus for the Browns franchise.

It changed by an entire .8 years!? Oh the humanity!

....players being about a year older a year later doesn't really seem like a radical shift.

There is no witch-hunt, bud...

The changes we are seeing are long overdo, imo and a welcomed change for the franchise. For years it seemed the franchise #1 goal was to lead the NFL in cap space available.

I used to remind everyone that there NO TROPHY for the franchise that ends the year with the most CAP SPACE. Saving money seemed to be the overwhelming pursuit of those running the Browns franchise. I'm all for being conservative when it comes to spending money but the Browns management/ownership seemed to lose focus on what the 'ultimate goal' is...a Lombardi Trophy.

I'm thankful for the effort of the Browns management team that is doing their best to work with the coaches, helping to secure the talent the coaches feel they need.

You can't measure a players desire to win with a stop watch.

Sixteen more games ahead..hunting for Lombardi, gm

For a few years the plan was to tear the team down to the studs and rebuild, Yes that included loading up on draft picks and keeping a low salary cap. The plan also included spending more once we got "Close" which we are now. We are in our window now, that's not a surprise to the front office.


We agree on the no trophy lol Just remember their is no Trophy for keeping a few vets and spending more when It would only slow the rebuild, and tie up money we needed when got close. I mean do you eally think it matters if we went 1-31 or if we would have gone 10-22?


They did remain focused, no matter how much people outside of the building whined and cried, because we didn't add a player or two who would have made us good enough in the long run to still be losers.


Agreed 100 percent. and you also can't win games with the desire of Rudy and the speed of a turtle. Which is why I am glad the Browns look at both.


Once again something we can agree on

pit, bull...any job I've ever done, I was a helluva lot better doing that job after I had some experience.

It's no different with football...I can speak of my own football experience, never playing outside LB before my soph year and playing outside LB as a junior after a year of experience playing the position. That one year of experience made a huge difference in my ability to play the outside LB position.

Experience matters .

GM explained the process to you. Either you get it or you don't. If you don't that's not everyone elses issue. Only your own.

Players getting experience and age guardrails disappearing are two rather separate things.

I don't disagree with what you say in this post.

D Ward can't tackle.

Gunner would like a word with you.

The Browns defense under the Browns 'new' DC Schwartz played well enough to win last nights game...

Browns defense should be 2-0 ... Browns everything else should be 0-2

the Browns defense has allowed only one TD in two games. No opposing team has reached the Red Zone. The opposition is 7 of 29 on third-down situations. The Browns defense has 18 QB hits in two games. This is a unit that can carry the team to a lot of wins if the offense stays away from major negative plays.
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...n-pittsburgh-terry-plutos-scribbles.html

Schwartz and the D has been awesome. Literally as good as imagined.

This is why I was so high on our winning last night, we only needed average out of DW and Ski, they failed miserably.

what a stat

So the fewest by any team since 1972.

Seems like a weird way to give us credit due lol.

Lol. No crap.

"Browns have allowed the fewest yards in over 50 years, how can we make that less significant??"

"Hold my beer."

And the 2023 Browns are doing it in a pass-happy, modern day NFL. This defence is very very good.

I can't read the above, only blank boxes, but super bowl nation is saying
one thousand two yards through five games, not weeks but games, = fewest in fifty years and third fewest since the merger.

and they are doing it being negative in turnovers.

I don't know, are we looking for a parade or something? Defense doesn't generally get a lot of buzz. It usually takes some sustained success before a D or team gets a reputation for being a great defense.

I know we have a good defense. You know we have a good defense, and the offensive coordinators around the league know we have a good defense. That's good enough for me.

Agree - need to sustain this level for a full season for us to get kudos. That said:

https://www.espn.co.uk/nfl/insider/...rprises-browns-bengals-jets-lions-texans


Jim Schwartz was the best acquisition any team made all offseason

The Browns brought in Schwartz as their new defensive coordinator this season, and so far, they appear to have the league's best, meanest and toughest defense. They held the previously unbeaten 49ers -- who had scored at least 30 points in each of their first five games -- to 17 on Sunday.

EDITOR'S PICKS

Sure, the Niners had a rash of major injuries during the game, and the Browns still needed a 41-yard Jake Moody field goal attempt to sail wide at the final whistle in order to hold on to win. But defensive end Myles Garrett and the defense stifled an offense that no one else has been able to even slow down. And as a result, the Browns are 3-2 and squarely in the AFC North hunt even though they don't have quarterback Deshaun Watson. And the Niners went home with their first loss of the season.

Verdict: NOT AN OVERREACTION

The numbers speak for themselves, folks. Entering Sunday, the Browns ranked first in defensive efficiency, according to ESPN's Football Power Index. They ranked 30th in offense. They've allowed a total of 1,002 yards so far this season. Only two teams since the 1970 merger allowed fewer yards in their first five games -- the 1971 Colts and 1970 Vikings. These are practically prehistoric numbers the Browns are putting up on defense.

If Watson can make it back from his right shoulder injury soon, and if the offense can get itself on track, Cleveland is going to be a major problem. Clearly, the Browns had the players, but Schwartz has brought it all together in a big way. Next week, they get the Colts, who turned it over four times Sunday in Jacksonville. Viewer discretion is advised.[i][/i][color:#33CC00][/color]

Schwartz has done such a good job of using the new (GOOD) acquisitions ... but also using our older guys in better ways (Delpit, JOK come to mind)

Lol. I agree 100%.

But facts are still facts. If a team has allowed the fewest yards in 50 years, why say they've allowed the third fewest in 52?

It's a tongue-in-cheek message done purposefully (probably) to the most maligned fans in the league, so that the rest of the league will laugh. I laughed too, no biggie here.

It's like telling your wife she looks great in that dress, but only while she's sitting down.

Maybe they mentioned 1970 because that's when the merger happened. Anyway, it's quite an accomplishment and a credit to our coaches and players!!

Yeah, it's definitely because of the merger. It's still funny.

I'm gonna embrace it and put a scowl on my face -- helps me keep my edge. 🤣

One thing about the article, when they mention points allowed, it would not be unusual for an article by ESPN to point out that 7 of those points were nearly directly related to a Browns' offense TO. Not true statistically, but IMHO, the D allowed 10 points to that 30+ PPG offense.

Also, I thought the "viewer discretion is advised" comment was funny.

We need to maintain our confidence and health, and winning cures a lot of that stuff

I've been impressed with our front and run fits. CMC was bottled up for a lot of the day after the first drive

Did CNC play? According to the media the 49ers were without he and Samuel.

CMC was knocked out in the 3rd quarter

They both played the first half. CMC made a couple attempts to come back in the 3rd, but alas, his booboo belly was too severe.

If our O can just produce a little more we would really have something to cheer about.

heck, in our losses we are literally just praying for the O to not turn it over

I'd like to see the offensive numbers those two years in contrast to what teams today do. Teams back then were averaging 50 YPG less than teams now. So in perspective, the Browns D are better than those

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1005862/nfl-average-yards-per-game-development-over-time/

Practically speaking the offense has given up at least 21 points due to turnovers.

I think what they were doing is using stats from the SB era. There have been 56 Super Bowls and that's what is widely considered the modern era of football. I don't believe there's any more to it than that.

It's definitely a "since the merger" comment.

It's just too easy to imagine it was a humorous, but back-handed, "we'll only give you so much credit" post. Believe me, I'm typing that with a smile on my face and knowing that probably wasn't the case at all.

Tom Withers wasn't having any of it....

It's certainly the kind of 'gallows humor' that should resonate with all Dawgs.



I got it.

For a week it sure is nice to see people happy about the team.

I was watching Quincy Carrier's live reaction. But a smile on my face.

Nate Segura and Andrew Siciliano's live call was another fun thing to watch.

I love enthusiasm. People hollering and screaming for the Browns.

there was a great clip of Siciliano on the Rich Eisen show when he explained the whole thing ... fun stuff

Maybe this should become it's own thread, but just imagine where a defense like this would have us if we had a better offense.



The offense right now:

Dead Freaking Last in Turnovers: Both in Total and Differential.
Well below the 40th percentile and nearly bottom third in Points/Game

Yes, we are technically tied with the Pats in Differential, and the Vikings have one more actual turnover, but both of those teams have played 6 games to our 5.
We're only scoring 19 pts/game on offense, and it feels like our offense gives up 10-14 per game while consistently giving up more turnovers than our D can create..... and that's no knock on the D because it's tough to rack up huge turnover numbers when the opponent doesn't get to stay on the field very long.

Also note: target Denver in fantasy sports.

Been saying they look like a historic D since the first or second game. They keep this up and they will be remembered like the 85 bears.

gosh we just need our offense to NOT lose us games and we'll win most of them

I agree that if they keep playing this way they should be remembered like the 85 bears but I doubt they will be for one main reason. The 85 Bears defense was pivotal in taking the Bears to and winning a SB in 85. As their W/L record kept getting batter, as they made the playoffs and then the SB, the attention of that D gained more and more popularity. They became celebrities. Especially The Fridge.

Now if this D can take the Browns to that level of success I agree with you. Otherwise they will still be considered a great D but never put on a pedestal and get the attention of the 85 Bears defense.

when you have a dominant group and/or team, it is REALLY important to start each game and give the opponent little hope .. like we have to go into Indy and stifle them, fly around, make their life hell for the first 2-3 drives

Quoted for Truth.
You get remembered by being this good AND WINNING IT ALL.

If they keep it up, they'll still rank with, or ahead of, all those sorts of teams... they just won't be highly regarded and will instead be a punchline for "defense wins championships".

The defensive numbers would be even better if the offense was average.

And nothing says it won't become average or better as the season moves on.

j/c

For years/decades, I've preached about the importance of culture and identity in regards to a team playing well in the NFL. One of my first long-winded op-eds was back around the days when Jamaal Lewis torched CLE for 500+ yards in one season. BAL had an identity in those days: Adequate/efficient O, suffocating D. It was a formula that allowed the Ravens to actually win The Tournament with a QB like Trent Dilfer.

Now, granted- the game has changed from those days, but this thing we're seeing now in 2023 looks to be the modern-day equivalent of that team, no matter what QB we place behind C.

This D dictates game flow. They punch opposing O's in the mouth early, forcing them to play against type... making them more vulnerable as the game progresses.


Jim Schwartz has brought a culture of aggression, efficiency and excellence to this team's Defense. They now have a persona: the nastiest, most efficient D in the league. If CLE wishes to establish new culture, they can take their marching orders from Schwartz's approach.

Schwartz's 2023 defense might just be the squad/coach/game day performance ethic to turn around this perpetually moribund team.
Badassery can be contagious.

This team has an opportunity to totally change its identity. And they can do it this season.
If CLE can get its O to play half as efficient as its D, playoffs are almost a lock. With a D like this, CLE can contend for at least 2-3 years.

Elves have been portrayed as puss pretenders since 1999. This could/should be the year they finally put that narrative to rest.

___________________

A squad like this D is the kind of element a team needs to establish its place. They have what it takes to tilt any current/pending game, and they look strong enough to dominate for another 2-3 years. If you wanna build upon something, this should be your starting place.

Browns are AFCN.
No domes in our division.
Build a D that can travel, and you have a shot, every year.

Beat PIT, CIN and BAL, and the jewelry is yours to take.


This team has a prime shot to do what I've been clamoring for over almost 2.5 decades: make a statement, find a persona, and use that to create a culture of badazz winnage.


Can't wait to see if they can actually turn it around this time.
Schwartz may just be the key.


.02,
Clem.

this is the avenue for us to make the playoffs .. the offense must become more consistent and limit mistakes

the coaching staff and players must buy into the notion that this is a defensive team (even when Watson returns)