DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Jim Schwartz and the Defense

I won't weigh in on the Schwartz discussion because I don't see pontification as a valid way to address that. I will say that his resume' would certainly give the appearance of being a significant upgrade to Woods. As such with the additions to the defensive roster one would think we will see at least some improvement. Anything beyond that I see as pure speculation.

In regards to the LB'er position I think you're spot on. When one looks at the past 5 SB winners, they won due to their QB play. They won based on the passing game. When you look at the top rated teams in the NFL today, you'll see they are the teams with the best QB's. Four and five WR sets are becoming more and more common. Then when you throw in 2 TE's you can have as many as six passing targets on any given play. You do need guys who can come in and cover the run, but it's obvious that the passing game has to be the top priority here. So speed and agility is far more important than muscle, bulk and strength alone.

The NFL is an ever evolving sport in terms of strategy. I too have made the mistake in the past of not seeing it as it unfolds and have been a little late to the party in that regard. But this is not one of those times.

Hey Oobs. Maybe I have been sleeping, but I haven't seen you in a while.

Welcome back.

It is the weakest if you are thinking about backers like they were in the 70's.

The whole position has changed. They are more for speed, but still aren't fast enough.

Back when teams played a 3-4, LB was a prime position. Teams don't play that anymore.

I can't think of a single defensive formation or situation where teams bring in extra linebackers. I can think of many where they take one off the field.

Backer units are the weakest group because teams have the LB position at the bottom of the totem pole on the defensive unit.

That said, the size we have put on the D line in front of the 2 we will play most of the time should impact their play in a positive way.

Though I agree with most of what you said, the exception to the thought is the top ranked 49ers defense and their linebackers. Burks, Warner, and Greenlaw are not any bigger or faster than the Browns current group of LB's yet still the top ranked group instrumental in their drive to the NFC title game that was achieved thru their defense and not an elite QB. As stated above, the 49ers LB's "fly to the ball" where the Browns LB's do not. It's not rocket science; all you have to do is watch the tape and you'll immediately see the difference. San Fran has invested in their LBer crew where the Browns have not. Hopefully the additions on the d-line will help but that's even subject at this time until we see the actual product on the field. I'm optimistic that after 4-years of DL changes that Berry has the DT position finally shored up but if he hasn't, I would expect more of the same with opponents running the ball down our throats. Of course, that's one way to negate the Watson effect if he's sitting on the bench.

I agree. His rep precedes him, and is well-earned.

The part of this story I'm loving is that his first NFL 'job' was an intern during the Belichick years. Came up from nothing. Earned his way to this place- and now has a D squad that (on paper) looks to be competitive against the best.

It would be so cool to see him win a Super Bowl with the team that gave him his first NFL experience.
It's only fair- after years of seeing Belichick and BAL win multiple championships after Model snatched the team from 216, Dawgs deserve to see a "Slappy" hoist the Paul Brown NFL Championship Trophy.


just my opinion

I am not saying we shouldn't ant better, or possibly need better.

My feeling is when you go with the "smaller' lb group, you need more beef in front of them. I think the mistake that was made early on is we seemed to go with the lighter, quicker DT.

When blockers were 240+ lbs, they could take on guards...who were a bit lighter then. Now that pretty much all guards are near 300 or more lbs, going with lighter backers doesn't work. There is a difference between shedding a block to get around a player v running away from them.

Just the evolution of football. Just as the O's have transitioned in to more of a speed, passing and QB type running attack, the D's have had to make changes as well.

I'm pretty sure that is what I was implying. However, the DT's Berry had in place were extremely weak in 2020, changed in 2021 to become the worst in the league, changed again in 2022 to be the worst in the league, and another change in 2023 with hopes the Browns finally have it right - the huge unknown at this point. It's not that the Browns haven't invested in the DL, it's that the acquisitions, FA and draft, have been suspect at best. The DL problem is a 3-year plus issue that Berry and Stefanski are taking their 4th swing at fixing. It's true the Browns acquired Tomlinson (PFF ranked 14) to shore up the interior, but the other DT position will still be manned by Elliott (PFF ranked 118) and Winfrey (PFF ranked 117) for their play in 2022. With basically no changes at LB, excuse me if I'm a bit skeptical that the DL is fixed having not seen the unit play as of yet.

I think something to remember about the DT progression from years past is that it is not solely on Berry. It is a collaborative effort. Joe Woods has a role to play. He details the traits and type of DT he is looking for. Berry goes and look for those traits and analytics.

And Woods prized athleticism over size and power. He wanted agility and movement. I think Schwartz likes bigger bodies because of his wide 9. But I also think Schwartz prizes disruption over all. Whether that is with speed or power or size, or whatever. Both guys want to make the O react to them, but have different ideas of how to do it. Woods wanted all Aaron Donald, John Randal types...smaller, slipperier, and in the backfield. The problem is...Those types are very few and only succeed because they have a ton of power too. Schwartz I think is a little more blunt about it. Kind of Woods' scalpel to Schwartz's sledge hammer.

Can Berry be blamed for not being able to find the next Aaron Donald??? Well, sure an argument could be made...but I don't know how strong that would be.

Being the least important group on the defensive side, I don't know.

You could ask the same about our D-line, DB's, and coordinators over the years, but I get it, you are fixated on the linebackers. Just understand that average is OK with those guys.

Like i said, you see teams pull linebackers from the field all the time. If they are that important, why not bring in an extra backer and dump a DB or D lineman?

Maybe try to answer my questions before you ask me any more.

You are stuck in 60's, 70's and 80's football they way I am stuck in the 60's, 70's, and 80's country music.

Though the LB position has changed, the emphasis that LB's are the tackler on the defense is still in place. Of the top 25 ranked players with tackles in 2022, 21 of the 25 are LB's with 3 of the other 4 being DB's from non-playoff teams and the other from Seattle. The Browns top tacklers were Delpit and Johnson - safeties leading the team in tackles. Interesting to note that BAL and CIN have a LB on this list along with both Super Bowl teams from this year ranked 2nd and 9th overall. LB's are still key to a defense and the Browns not investing into the position could be a drastic error for the club - at least the stats would show that opinion.

POS/Team/Player_______________2022 Tackles
1) LB JAC Foyesade Oluokun________128
2) LB KCC Nick Bolton_____________ 108
3) LB BAL Roquan Smith___________ 103
4) LB SEA Jordyn Brooks___________103
5) LB IND Zaire Franklin___________ 102
6) LB DEN Alex Singleton___________101
7) LB NYJ C.J. Mosley_______________99
8) LB NYG Bobby Okereke___________99
9) LB CHI T.J. Edwards______________99 (previously PHI)
10)DB HOU Jalen Pitre_______________99
11)LB KCC Drue Tranquill____________ 95
12)LB LAC Eric Kendricks____________ 87
13)LB MIN Jordan Hicks______________86
14)LB TEN Rashaan Evans____________86
15)DB GBP Jonathan Owens__________ 84
16)LB WAS Cody Barton_____________ 84
17)LB PHI Nicholas Morrow___________83 (previously CHI)
18)LB CIN Logan Wilson_____________ 83
19)LB HOU Christian Kirksey__________82
20)LB SFO Dre Greenlaw_____________82
21)LB SEA Bobby Wagner____________ 81
22)LB TBB Lavonte David____________ 80
23)LB SFO Fred Warner______________79
24)DB SEA Julian Love_______________79
25)DB ARI Jalen Thompson___________79
26 thru 42 = 8 more LB's, 8 DB's

42)DB CLE Grant Delpit______________72
43)DB LAR John Johnson_____________70 (previously CLE)

That's a good point. We did have a lot on injuries at the LB position and we lost a leader on D there early in the season namely Anthony Walker. I don't think we're as bad at LB as most think but I'll admit we could use a top talent there. Time will tell.

I had a suspicion that the immediate response would be that the Browns LB's were injured in 2022. However, since 2000, the top tacklers for the Browns have been LB Jones who played only 11 games with 25 tackles while in Cleveland and "no surprise," safety John Johnson who was only in Cleveland for 2 years. This chart is a 3-year look at the top 25 players with the most tackles over that time period.

To take it a step further, in 2020, the Browns didn't have a single player, LB or DB, ranked in the top 50 in tackles. In 2021, the Browns player with the most tackles was LB Walker with 69 tackles that ranked him 36th overall.

I disagree with the opinion that the Browns can get by with average LB's just the same as I disagree with having average DT's, an average at best LT, and a bunch of WR's that are journeymen or players they hope can meet their potential that Berry needed to address. Instead, we got a grossly over-payed TE (13.7M avg), a 5th year option on an undeserving LT (14.175M), and at least by last year's performance - a grossly over-payed CB (20.1M avg). I will reserve my thoughts on Watson, but I was highly disappointed by the product he put on the field last year for 46M dollars. Granted, Berry is spending money - the most in the NFL but where and how is he spending it if we continue to have areas of weakness? To be fair, kudos for resigning Pocic, picking up Tomlinson, Smith, and Moore (except, what's the plan if we get the 2021 & 2022 Moore instead of the potential Moore?). As a CBS reporter stated, "the Browns are all in for 2023," they better show results.


1) LB JAC Foyesade Oluokun___________308 (2 yrs ATL, 1 yr JAC)
2) LB BAL Roquan Smith______________296 (2 1/2 yrs CHI, 1/2 yr BAL)
3) LB DEN Alex Singleton_____________ 257 (2 yrs PHI, 1 yr DEN)
4) LB TBB Devin White_______________ 257
5) LB LAR Bobby Wagner______________255 (2 yrs SEA, 1 yr LAR)
6) LB SEA Jordyn Brooks______________247
7) LB NYG Bobby Okereke_____________245 (3 yrs IND)
8) LB MIN Jordan Hicks_______________239 (2 yrs ARI, 1 yr Min)
9) LB LAC Eric Kendricks______________237 (3 yrs MIN)
10)LB SFO Fred Warner_______________ 237
11)DB ARI Budda Baker_______________228
12)LB GBP De'Vondre Campbell_________227 (1 yr ARI, 2 yrs GBP)
13)LB TBB Lavonte David______________225
14)DB NYJ Adrian Amos_______________213 (3 yrs GBP)
15)LB CHI Tremaine Edmunds__________213 (3 yrs BUF)
16)LB BAL Patrick Queen______________213
17)LB ARI Kyzir White________________206 (2 yrs LAC, 1 yr PHI)
18)DB TEN Kevin Byard_______________205
19)DB MIN Harrison Smith____________ 203
20)LB NYJ C.J. Mosley________________202
21)LB CAR Shaq Thompson___________ 202
22)DB BUF Jordan Poyer______________201
23)DB IND Kenny Moore______________200
24)DB PIT Minkah Fitzpatrick__________ 200
25)LB CHI T.J. Edwards_______________200 (3 yrs PHI)


33)LB ATL Deion Jones_______________185 (2 yrs ATL, 1 yr CLE - 11 gms played 25 tackles)
40)DB LAR John Johnson_____________ 180 (1 yr LAR, 2 yrs CLE)

And they went to the AFC Divisional Round

69 solo, 44 assisted for 113 total. 33rd among all defenders, 26th LB. Not much better but he missed three games too. Tae Crowder, (2021 PFF score of 29.1)got more tackles than Walker. Cole Holcomb (2021 PFF score of 56.7) got more tackles.Bobby Okerke (2021 PFF score of 58.5) got more tackles. Conversely, LaVonte David got less than him. Same with Micah Parsons, Shaq Thompson, Demario Davis, Patrick Queen, Leonard Floyd and others. These are good/great LBs so what does that all mean, exactly?

Also, where is this list coming from? Are you counting total tackles or solo ones like you did w/ Walker? Also, where is the color coordination for?

All that said, I think there are far more important statistics determining effectiveness for players than the amount of tackles one accrues over the course of a season.

- A good defense, essentially by definition, means your unit won't be on the field much, thus limiting the amount of snaps for tackling opportunities.
- Where were these tackles had? Behind the LOS or 10-15 up field? If the latter, than so what if that means more tackles for a player.
- How is a def. scheme used by a team? How often are LBs on the field? What is the % of teams using nickel and dime packages?

Look, our defense wasn't good last year, but I'm not sold on tackle numbers as a priority stat to refer to. Missed tackles might be more of an important statistic, in my opinion. And yes, injuries are a factor for some players if we are simply aggregating the amount of tackles in a season and then judging a player's value on their total.

So where did the bulk of those tackles take place? Were they on RB's rushing the ball coming out of the backfield or were they against WR's, TE's and RB's in passing situations? Your raw numbers have done nothing to support your previous position.

Why the personal attack? This is a forum where we can exchange opinions about our team. I make an attempt in every post to share my opinion based on facts as much as I can without attacking the person whose post I'm commenting on.

Just like this post - with 4 of our LB's coming off injury and their past performances, can you honestly say the Browns LB's are not a questionable area of concern?

Honestly, has Njoku's performance past and present earned a contract of 13.867M avg comparable to the performances past and present of a Kelce 14.312M avg, Kittle 15M avg, or an Andrews 14.0M avg? Really, has there been a single season out of the 6 that Njoku has been with the Browns that comes anywhere close to these other top TE's performance? Then why is he being paid a ransom for half the results?

Do you honestly accept the sixth highest paid CB in the NFL performance last year? Please don't use Wood as an excuse for his lackluster play because he supposedly earned that high contract playing in Woods exact same defense the two previous years. Did the Browns get their 21M worth from Ward in 2022?

Was signing Pocic to a new deal not a good thing?

Was going out and getting Smith, Tomlinson, and Moore not good moves from the Browns?

Can you honestly state as a fact that Moore's past disdain might not pop up again if he's not getting his own predetermined targets in the Browns offense? Afterall, he has a well-documented history. I agree with the talent that has yet to be shown but where's his mind and what's the plan if the Browns get the 2022 Moore?

There's been numerous posts on here about Wills - questioning his progress even by you. It's just my opinion that you don't hand him a guaranteed 14.7M option year when there's questions about his production the last 3-years.

Watson was not good last year for many different reasons, but the fact still remains that he was paid 46M for that poor performance. That's not an opinion, it's a fact and excuse me for calling out his poor play.

Getting Schwartz as DC was a good move past due by the Browns. I do believe the defense will be better but not sure if it's playoff caliber yet. Maybe, but there's a whole lot of question marks right now and that makes even the average fan a little uneasy.

Anyway, this is what the forum is supposed to be about. Fans talking about the team and how they're going to look this year. Nobody needs or deserves the attacks because they don't like what the person said. That's the problem in today's world - let's just silence those individuals when we don't like what they are saying.

At times I certainly think you make some valid points and tend to agree with them. I also feel that criticism of any kind is not well received on this board. But it is a Browns fan site so to some extent I think that's to be expected. As I think you can see I don't really care if people disagree with me because I plan to state things the way I see them.

Moore's past conduct is something people seem to wish to avoid and dismiss and as to why I have no idea. Well, maybe I do. It tends to be a trend when a player puts on the Browns uniform. And then we see other players wearing the uniform that aren't performing the way fans like and they attack like rabid dogs over far less. It's like watching people turn mole hills into mountains and then watching those same people turn mountains into mole hills. But in regards to Moore....

New Details Emerge From Elijah Moore's Profane Outburst on Day of Trade Request

Elijah Moore and former offensive coordinator Mike LaFleur had a heated exchange before the wide receiver requested a trade from the Jets.

https://www.si.com/nfl/jets/news/ne...outburst-jets-trade-request-mike-lafleur

I'm sure we all hope such conduct is behind Moore but there is reason for caution and concern.

With Wills I don't think it's so much about "deserving" 14 mil. as it is about availability and being better than the available options. And don't you feel that's a better option than giving him a long term contract extension? I mean our top pick was in the third round so their options were limited.

And no, Njoku has not as of yet lived up to his contract numbers. If it doesn't happen with watson it never will.

There are areas where we disagree but it's not simply because your points aren't sunshine and roses. I try to take each one individually and act accordingly. For some reality can be a hard pill to swallow. One thing I try to keep in mind is there is no such thing as a perfect person. Be that person an NFL HC, an NFL GM or an NFL owner. So while I hope and expect them to perform well, I understand that they will make mistakes along the way. Perspective is a good thing.

The same question could be given to you.

In the NFL last year, teams averaged 33.3 passing plays per game (54.95%) to 27.3 running plays (45.95%). For the Browns, opponents passed the ball 53.12% and rushed the ball 46.88%. That's a whopping .61% more passes per game than the NFL avg. Since the Browns opponents for all practical purposes ran the average number of passing plays vs running plays as the NFL average then you would have to assume that the tackles should be being made by the linebackers as the top 25 demonstrated which did not happen for the Browns. To answer your question, the Browns defense basically had the same breakdown as the NFL average and the tackles should have been similar which they were not. These facts do indeed support my position that the Browns safeties should absolutely not be leading the team in tackles if the people in front of them were doing their job.

Thank you for your honest opinion.

First of all, I wasn't the one trying to make a point of how poorly the Browns LB'er were against the run so it's not my point to prove. Secondly, when you have your DL being pushed around by your opponents, it creates a situation where your LB'ers share an unfair disadvantage over teams with more physical and capable DL's. And has been pointed out already, your numbers were based on solo tackles and not combined with assisted tackles.

That's why raw numbers in and of themselves often times do net tell the story.

We can respectfully agree to disagree and see where the chips fall this season. To be clear, I didn't say Moore was a malcontent at all and even said it was a good move by Berry all of which you conveniently skipped by. What I did say was what if the Browns get the 2022 Moore instead of the high potential Moore - is there a plan? Totally different from what you are commenting on. Last point on Moore, and I send it back to you: What do you know about Moore? "Were you at practices with the Jets? Have you been to Browns practices?" What would lead you to say his past actions are behind him and he'll finally reach his potential? You don't have any more of an idea on his future performance than I do. Like I said, I agree with the Berry move but unlike you, I'm not anointing him a savior until I see it on the field which up to this time - it hasn't happened.

It's my preference to keep my comments as close to football as I can. Conjecture and hypotheticals always seem to lower the quality of discourse here.

Barring injury I think the LBs on this team will be able to do the job Swartz intends for them. All indications, based on how Swartz has operated in the past, the DL will be the premier unit of his defense. If the past is prologue then the wide-9 alignment, stunts, one-gap penetration, 5-man fronts, rushing DEs from the interior and 9 or 10 man DL rotation will be keys to this defense's success. Of course, LBs will have their roles. Executing their run fis and defending TEs in the passing game are areas that come to mind.

Because Swartz wants to set the DL loose to be as disruptive as possible it will create havoc for the LBs who will have opportunities to make plays.

I think if healthy, our LB's can be good enough although I'd like to see us add another experienced one at some point. I liked Jacob Phillips when we drafted him although he hasn't shown much since he's been here. He has been hurt every season. Maybe with better health and a new scheme he can develop into a solid player.

Not all of the nineties country music was as bad as "baby likes to rock it like a boogie woogie choo choo train" my gosh that one is awful, or as bad as "welcome to earth 3rd rock from the sun" , there was some Alan Jackson, and John Andersons' "black sheep" and Forever and ever amen by the old guy.
but yeah a couple of dancing idiots I won't name, ruined country music, but even their harm only pales in comparison to a perceived realisation that any new country song has a ninety percent chance of being written by some Euro brittish guy who goes around describing stereotypical objects of country life as the main portion of lyrics..... bad Nashville..

and then knowing none of these songs are genuine.

Jordan Kunacxyk and Fields are fine linebackers, among others,

There were no Lb drafted by the Browns?
Well they didn't draft a kicker either, they must hate points.

The whole "Were you at Jets practice" thing is ridiculous. I mean let's be honest here. You are the anti Steve. You do the exact opposite of what you are accusing him of. I mean even the smelliest turd can be polished but it's still a turd. You are certainly right about not being able to predict the future. And I haven't seen where, in regards to Moore, that anyone has tried to do that.

Yet let's take a look at something that's at least somewhat comparable shall we? Look at how browns fans have treated OBJ based on his "behavior". What coaches did OBJ cuss out? The only real difference here is that one left the Browns and Moore just came to the Browns. Both of them demanded a trade. One used to wear a Browns uniform and one just put on a Browns uniform. That, and well, Moore actually cussed out his coach.

Does that mean he will repeat such behavior in the future? No, it most certainly doesn't. But for one to simply try to dismiss such behavior and act as though it isn't reason for concern is well, doing some major polishing. I think that's where a part of the big disconnect happens. I'm not trying to attack Moore's character. However, I'm not making silly excuses like "What do you know about Moore? Were you at practices with the Jets?" Then you go on to act like somehow it's the Jets fault he was acting like a jerk.

There are many times I agree with the Browns FO and coaching staff. There are times when I don't. Moore could turn out to be a great addition to the roster. On the other hand he could turn out to be a major distraction if history repeats itself. None of us know for sure. But I'm not foolish enough to act like what happened in New York didn't happen or blame someone else for his behavior. It's a part of the equation.