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Foolishly determined… OBJ and his daddy had a hand in that. We’ll see what happens, but I expect Baker to take his team to the playoffs.

If playoffs are your ceiling, then yes Baker is your guy. If you have good players around him, he can and has proved he can get a team to the playoffs. He is not good enough to beat Mahomes, Allen, etc... in the playoffs. The Browns seen what Joe Burrow could do and seen the Bengals passing them by and made the decision to move on.

I think Baker and the Bucs will win the AFC South. If they don't it will be a major disappointment. They have no shot at getting by the niners, the eagles, the lions, or the cowboys. That is just who Baker is and he limitations.

That may be true. But then the Jets came within three points of beating the Chiefs in week four with Zach Wilson at QB. I'm certainly not disagreeing with you that Baker has his limitations. He's certainly not the ideal QB you would want to try and lead the charge to a SB victory. But thus far, since his departure I haven't seen any QB take the field for the Browns who didn't appear to have limitations. Not saying that may not change but I am saying we're yet to see it.

I agree. The Browns saw Baker's limitations and seen Burrow and the Bengals passing them and took a chance at who Watson was and hopes he could be here. We have only seen Watson perform to that kind of standard twice the Washington game last year and the Tennessee game this year. Over his career he has achieved more success than Baker and hopefully that success starts to show itself here. As early as this Sunday if he is healthy.

We just beat the Niners with our 3rd string QB, and without Chubb and Bitonio.

The Jets just beat the Eagles.

Never say never.

Everyone has a past. He could rival what he once was or he may never. Only time will tell. He had 3td's in that Washington game but was 9-18 in pass completions for 169 yards. I'm not sure that means what you think it means. He certainly performed to what we had hoped to see against the Titans. But then again if people such as yourself wish to point out that Baker has only played well against poor teams that same comparison could be used there against the Titans.

But then I'm not one who has tried to use that against either QB. But if I used that logic against one of them, I would use it against both of them and not pick and choose between the two.

If one looks at their respective careers you certainly make a valid point. The potential future success of watson certainly has better odds if you base it upon that. How that all turns out is yet to be seen. Thus far the return on the investment has been poor.

j/c...

Browns should be able to keep PJ Walker on the roster without having to send him back to the PS, if they so choose.

Too bad about Dunn ... he stepped in really admirably for us

He sure did.

His speed and tackling really stood out the past couple of games.

I'm sorry...but that ^ narrative is complete BS. In 2020 Baker 'had his team' one Chad Henne jailbreak away from playing in the AFC Championship game...or one Rashard Higgins fumble-for-touchback. His 'good' players at WR were Landry, Higgins, DPJ and Khadarel Hodge...his TEs were Hooper and Bryant. If that = "good players around him" then I am an astronaut.


The Browns probably should have focused on their own QB's play against the Bengals rather than slobbering over Cool Joe who has the luxury of having (2) #1 WRs to throw to and has played for (1) coach who has an offense that is geared to Cool Joe's strengths and weaknesses. Weird idea.

I got over Baker about 30 minutes after we signed DW...I have no use for wondering what could have been with him instead of DW and with (3) 1st Rd + PLUS picks and a ton of salary cap...it simply doesn't matter...but the only narrative more ridiculous than that one ^ is talking about Baker's 2021 season here and completely and conveniently NOT mentioning the shoulder injury that required surgery...it's crazy.

So now we have a QB who is 1-3 in the playoffs and carries a ton of baggage...he's been healthy for (3) games - looking good in (1) - and there's already grumbling that the offense isn't best-tailored for him. His shoulder injury prevents him from playing. He has Cooper, Moore, Goodwin and a now-vet DPJ to throw to with Njoku and without Chubb...and outside of the Titans game he hasn't looked demonstrably better than PJ Walker. Last year we were told that he was rusty...this year the offense isn't tailored to his strengths...and I imagine once he decides to play again we will have a rust-removal timeframe to consider.

BTW and FWIW...I'm not trying to be jerk to you DotD...I'm just so tired of that Baker narrative that I could no longer not opine back at that. I'll apologize in advance if that ^ offended you.

I want DW or DTR or PJ or ? to get us a Super Bowl win...I won't care who the players are or who the coach is when/if that happens. My biggest concern is that in the 1.5 seasons that DW has been on this team he has not consistently looked like a guy who could get us to the playoffs...let alone win enough playoff games to get us to the Super Bowl. My next-biggest concern is that this FO went ALL-IN by signing Watson...we have spent $$$ like crazy...we have a Super Bowl caliber defense...and the one position that is most holding us back is QB.

It sounds like what you really mean about the KC game is that Stefanski is so good and had Higgins running so wide open that even Baker couldn't miss him despite the subpar surrounding receiver talent.


Really, it's just interesting who people give credit for what.

A team can win with Baker. To me, a team probably isn't going to consistently win because of Baker. I'm not saying he's the reason a team won't win. When things inevitably go wrong, I don't think he's a guy that can regularly overcome breakdowns.

Eventually, we'll hopefully get to see what Kevin can do with a good, healthy QB. ...hopefully....

Agreed. I'm starting to get my hopes up a little. In the past when I did, I was disappointed, but I hope this time it's different!!! ON our QB situation, why can't we sign a vet like Matt Ryan or Phillip Rivers or Carson Wentz for insurance on DW? I would think with their experience we'd be better off than what we have and it would just be money not like we're trading for draft picks. Thoughts?

The. Browns have had a good team/ roster for 4 years with one playoff appearance to show for it. Although that victory was one more playoff victory that we have experienced since 99.

That should not mean we are satisfied for the next 20 some years. It has been nice seeing the Browns flirt with a .500 record the last 3 years, especially after perennial 4-12 seasons that fell to a disastrous 1-31 record for 2 years. but this roster should be much more consistent. The FO have addressed many areas since the playoff loss to KC. But the one piece that remains may be the reason the Browns don’t consistently win.

The evidence continues to mount against KS, but many just do not want to see it.

Each of those looked awful the lasttime they played.

I don't think you'd be getting a significant improvement over PJ.

I don't disagree with anything you said about Baker. I don't see him as QB who can carry a team but a QB who can help a team. Sadly, after all the money and draft picks invested to address that issue, thus far I haven't seen anything that paints to a significantly different picture now. Almost one and a half seasons down and three and a half to go.

But as always and as has been the the circumstances since 1999, we still have hope. When all else fails we still have that. For all of the good that has done us so far.

Besides the Tennessee game.
Where is the evidence that shows this offense is improving?

I really do not know what some of you are seeing.

I see a coach who has .500 written all over him unless he makes some changes on his game management.

And I believe many on here feel the same way.

People see what they wish to see and refuse to see what they don't wish to see.

I only disagree with you on one thing. At this juncture some people will always find fault with Stefanski no matter what. They have dug in too deep to ever change course. I mean just look at this week. The Browns put up the second highest point total over the first 6 weeks of the season against a great San Fran D. It was done with no Chubb and a former XFL QB brought up from the practice squad.

Nothing will ever be good enough.

Bone very good points

My point is, he has had good players play well, but he can not find a way to win consistently.
There are soooooooo many reasons as have been listed.

Bottom line is win & losses and he is not getting enough wins.
I have said this multiple times the last season in a half. As many have been vocal of giving up play calling duties. Not give up significant input, but give yourself opportunities to see a bigger picture instead of having to constantly come up with a play.

The season is early. If the Browns are to meet goals this year, Kevin Stefanski will be much better at game adjustments and game management at crucial points.

I now unlike previous seasons do not believe that is going to happen.
I hope I am wrong

I can not see KS coming back without a winning record.

We could have a winning record and miss the playoffs and I could see him coming back. I don’t know if I would agree, but could see it. Man that seat would be on fire.

There are a lot games to be played to be played that will answer a lot of questions. But the playoffs have to be a huge part of bringing KS back.

Of the teams you mentioned, Pittsburg is the only team whose coach shouldn’t be talked about. & Steeler fans have bitched about Tomlin forever. They have no idea.

NE & D look bad. Why would Patriots fans not be looking for the next coach?
Peyton will get time, it Wilson is probably getting as much talk as Watson.

So how is Belichick doing without Brady? How about Payton without Brees? Man do those HC's suck!

KS has not been able to coach his team to anything resembling consistent success nor improvement. He had an extra week to get PJ ready for San Fran and they had to fly across the country and play a game starting at 10:00am. His team played well Sunday against a very good team and he did that with backups in key spots. Great job actually.

So...now...lets see what he does this coming week. Will we lay an egg like we do so often after a good win? Or will we start looking like a team with direction and purpose?

one thing that teams have done to KS's offense: eliminated the boot stuff and really limited our screen game. When KS first got here, we really kept teams off balance with that stuff ... now, we are much more of a vanilla type offense ... just from my observation

Also, our YAC is putrid, and that's been a KS trend. We gotta fix that

We currently rank 27th in pre-snap motion and dead last in YAC

I understand the concept of limiting Baker's weaknesses, which makes sense .. but I just don't feel defenses off balance like they had been in KS's first 1-1.5 years

Seth Walder
@SethWalder
Motion report through Week 6!

This is sorted by rate of motion at the snap. The second column is all motion (at snap and motion and set).

Or have teams taken away the screen?

I don't see the offense as vanilla, I see it as one trying to work through injuries and issues at QB.

We are 5 games in to a season where players have been injured and trying to find their rhythm. We are 3-2 in those games. Before the season, i think most people felt that was going to be our record. Just chill a bit. Enjoy the D and give the O a bit more time. Once they figure it out, we can be a very dangerous team.

I don't think it is Stefanski, I think it is series of circumstances holding us back on O. Lets see how it is working in a few weeks.

Here are the numbers from Seth Walder. The Browns have been disappointingly low in the use motion at the snap and use of motion overall.

thanks Milk .. yeah, thats a really disappointing number. In general, the "good" teams are near the top there

Could this be due to the changes we made to the offense over this off-season? I feel like I heard a lot about big changes that were coming with Watson fully "in", but really can't seem to discern what we're trying to be.

yeah that could be the case .. I do recall having us near the top of that "motion" list with Baker in KS's first year. I don't know what to attribute the change to

20-28
26-24

Which one is Bill Belichicks record in his first three years with the Browns and which one is Stefanski's

We've had backup QBs playing, so we've had a simplified offensive attack. Keeping track of the play clock and making sure everyone is aligned right when you've been with the team for less than a month isn't exactly easy without throwing in a bunch of motion.

yeah I'm not discounting the fact that we've had a pretty big fluctuation in personnel

Another way of looking at those numbers:

Belichick's 1st 4 seasons
6-10
7-9
7-9
11-5


KS 1st 4 seasons
11-5
8-9
7-10
TBD - currently 3-2