I said this elsewhere, but Walker has a little more polish and experience in games than DTR. Neither will win us the SF game, but still

Just say this out loud for a second...if our starting QB goes down, we won't start our only backup QB on the active roster...we will instead start our practice squad guy.

Happens all the time, right? The polish is officially off of this turd of a FO-through-HC.

Say it out loud.

Reminds me of the team we play on Sunday to a degree.

Only speaking for myself but when Nick went down. It let the air out of my balloon.

Besides being my favorite player. I know how important he was to this team.

The offense was going to be based upon balance. Nick was half of that.

Ford and Hunt are average backs. They are in no way a replacement for Mr. Chubb. Every team gets injuries and you have to adjust.

The offense now has to change gears. We have to change our offensive personality. We have to become a pass attacking team. That means more receivers in routes. Most snaps from the gun. Use of motion. Scheme opens with rub routes. Have a quick 3 or 4 read from far too near.

Miami is a team running a fast twitch passing attack. Quick fire passing.

We cannot continue with the scheme that was based upon Nick. The results will not happen.

We do not have a pocket passer and the OL is not playing well to support that kind of play.

It is up to AVP and KS to adjust. I am not sure we can. Sure you change plays. But that does not mean your players are a fit to what is needed.

This season hangs in the balance and I cannot say I am optimistic.

AVP has zero to do with any of that

j/c...

AVP is the offensive coordinator. Of course he has something to do with it.

It makes no difference to me what people think of KS. However, what has been reiterated from Berry and the coaching staff is a collaborative approach to coaching.

If you did not believe that ok.

IMO I think it is the case. Why not? Ideas from others may help. DW has input. I see no reason why not.

The goal is improvement. However you get there.

No matter how you slice it, AVP is the one who gets the O ready for the game in practice. So claiming he has nothing to do with it is just silly talk. KS may be the one that makes the call as it pertains to what adjustments should be made but it's up to AVP to prepare them to execute those adjustments.

yeah exactly. Chubb went down and it sealed our fate basically.

Well...Lance was injured early in the year (Wk2)...Jimmy G played QB after that...not a PS QB.

When Jimmy G went down...in came Purdy...who was never on the PS to my recollection.


I see the 'to a degree' comment...so that's how-so I suppose.

I just can't fathom having an un-injured QB on the 53 and bypassing him (for the next start at QB) over a PS guy. I think this type of roster 'management' is playing with fire. I'm not so disappointed that Walker is considered 'better' at this time...I am however shocked that they would play russian roulette with the QB position and not lock Walker from being poached. It's not like he's a G or something.

For (3) straight years our season's 'fate' was sealed by about week (4).

I know that Watson may be back before the season is too far along...so...this season's 'fate' will rest on whether Ski can scheme a way for Watson to be effective...and I'd say we are still waiting on that to reveal itself.

Our fate was sealed because the QB position has been a mess. And here we are this year... 230 million guaranteed dollars and all the draft picks... and our QB position is still a mess.

DW probably just wants to take another week off to rest and get well. Nothing wrong with that.

You may be right, nothing to gain by getting thumped by the 49ers. However, considering his accuracy and timing has been very suspect so far this year, 3 to 4 weeks of not throwing isn't going to improve those deficiencies. Then the question would become, how many weeks will it take for Watson to get to 2020 levels, if ever? Whole lot of money being laid out each year (46M) for zero positive results in year 1 and a shell of what you purchased for half the season in year 2.

In his last start watson was 27-33 for 289 yards and 2 td's.

I just saw an interesting, and admittedly completely baseless, conspiracy theory being floated as an explanation for the DW weirdness.

The short version is the theory that perhaps he has screwed up off the field again with another massage "request".


With all of the strange reports flying around that the coach says it was his call even though he was medically cleared, but then apparently Berry contradicts that, but meanwhile, supposedly, all of the players thought he was going to play because he was telling them he'd play only for him to suddenly not be able to play... and now, a full three weeks after the game where he was "injured", he's still not taking reps. It's all SUPER STRANGE. However, the even stranger conspiracy theory actually has all of the weird suddenly make sense, which is kinda scary.


FWIW: my less weird theory is that he's trying to actively get out of Cleveland with all of that guaranteed money and get to another contract at a place of his choosing. Between the poor play and now the lingering "injury" issues, I feel like he's just trying to make himself not worth keeping.

I blame it on inflation. $230 million just doesn't buy what it used to.

That ain't no lie.

After he burned his face

thats crazy

Sadly true. That's why we threw in the draft picks; COLA for the NFL.

So, he did that against the weak azz Titans. Tell me that you honestly believe that the Browns have received anything close to a 46M per year QB play. The whole point of the acquisition was the Browns "HAD TO HAVE" an elite top 5 QB to make it to a Super Bowl. It was the only missing piece that was keeping them from being a bonafide Super Bowl contender. The Browns have paid Watson $56,823,530 for the 9-games over 2 seasons he has played thus far for the Browns. Have the Browns received elite play for that 56M plus paid? How much more time does he get before we see consistent top 5 elite play - 2 weeks, 6, 8, the rest of 2023 or maybe in 2024? I guess being ranked 19th after 5 weeks into the season with a QBR of 47.2 is acceptable (hmmm, that includes the Titans game). The bum former QB has a QBR of 70.1 ranked 6th but wasn't elite enough for the Browns.

According to the vast majority of posters on this forum - Watson has a better o-line than the 2020 Texans, better WR's than 2020, better HC than 2020, better GM than 2020, and a better defense than his 2020 team (in fact, many on this forum here say the Browns are an elite defense). So, when can we expect that consistent top 5 elite play considering Watson has been afforded a better all-around supporting cast than he had in 2020? Supposedly, the Browns have went out and upgraded the entire roster when compared to what Watson had in Houston in 2020. Shouldn't we expect equal or better play then out of our 230M QB playing behind a much superior roster? When?

Here are some more pics he posted of his burns. Much respect that he went out and played. Had to be incredibly painful.

pretty incredible he played

He's a tough [censored].

Anyone starting to wonder if this Deshawn business is a psychological issue…? I mean, get imagining done, get a second medical opinion if it’s a real physical issue. If it’s actual physical damage there’s protocols. But this is weird. He’s ready, he isn’t, it’s his call… what is going on? Has he lost his mojo, creeping doubt, having “a moment”? This is so Browns

All valid questions!

Being critical to what’s going on around Watson is based on conflicting reports and these incidents is another symptom for an unstable organization without a healthy culture. Maybe Berry and Stefanski is communicating parts of the truth but it’s still handled in an amateurish way who creates more questions than answers.

I’m disappointed that we don’t learn from previous mistakes. Investing 230M in a questionable character was and is a huge gamble that can easily set us back a couple of years. Was what was happening in Houston only a string of unfortunate circumstances?

If we’re going to compete against the very best organizations in the NFL we need leaders that knows what they’re doing and has the competence to make well thought long term decisions. Taking well calculated chances is sometimes necessary but entering costly and risky deals even when the problems is well documented is a sign of a poor leadership.

This leads me to Steve’s post about our franchise QB. So far we supporters has every reason to question what we got for giving away multiple valuable draft picks and 230M.

Always great to look at the sunny side.

I think it is time to petition the NFL and ask that they remove the team.

We don't deserve this. Haslam should sell the team.

It is time for Cleveland fans to find another team. We are not that far away from Buffalo or Detroit. I mean they never lose.

Maybe we can find something else. Some sport where you always win.

No. I'm guessing he's legitimately hurt. Unfortunately, some injuries are harder to diagnose than others. Some are also harder to treat. The shoulder is one of the most freely moveable areas in the human body (when undamaged), and to allow it to move as it is able, it is quite complex.

If one thinks something is going to resolve itself quickly, most people don't go for second opinions. Unfortunately, it's lingering longer than expected.

..."Fans" are weird....Browns fans especially. They (we) have reasons for that, but I think it also is a bit of a negative feedback loop/downward spiral.

You can downplay that performance all you like. He had played against not so great teams before and did much worse. But you do you.

the fact is the Browns put up more points against the Titans than any other opponent they had faced including the Chargers who have Justin Herbert at QB.

I have had no reason whatsoever to criticize the Browns leadership if this was just a unlucky handling of an pretty straightforward incident. Players get injured all the time and either they play or don’t without any surrounding drama but with the Browns this’s to often the normal way of dealing with a problem than anything else. You can call it whatever you like but in my world it’s poor leadership.

Your other strange comments doesn’t deserve any further attention.

Hey phrase in your reply, "In my world".

Frankly, I am sick of the whining.

If there is a smell of negativity it will get dug up.

It's sports. Entertainment or not. You win and lose.

For the last fifty years all I have heard is complaining. Fire this guy. Hire that guy. This guy sucks. Who can we blame?

We get a good coach. Belichick, Marty it does not matter. They get criticized. It is always greener somewhere. Except it is not. Dallas gets talked about non-stop. What have they done?

Everyone has the answers. In their minds.

Watch the game. If it is upsetting. Turn it off. I don't care who gets fired or hired. I am not on the line for it.

I hope I live to see the day the Browns win a Super Bowl.

If not. C'est la vie.

While I agree with your overall premise, come on man. We haven't had a Belichick or Marty since, well.... Belichick and Marty.

My point is. It makes no difference who we hire.

They will be criticized.

A few coaches last in some places. Not many.

No matter how good they have been.

When you look at coaches who last. Guess what? They are getting great quarterback play.

If or when that ends. The coaches get fired.

I'm not really disagreeing with you here. But I will say I think one needs to consider the size of the crowd involved here. I too heard the calls for Belichick and Marty's heads back in the day. But they weren't the large crowd of voices. They were the outliers in the room. There wasn't a vast majority of the fan base calling for their jobs. So I think a little context here is called for in the examples you chose to give.

And as it pertains to the success of coaches being tied to QB's, I posted the very same thing the other day in a different type of discussion. It was about "installing a winning culture".

I pointed out that two of the biggest examples of that were Belichick in New England right up until of course Tom Brady left. And then there was Sean Payton in New Orleans of course right up until drew Brees retired. So I think we're pretty much on the same page here for the most part.

All I want is the Browns to have some sort of success similar to when we won against the Steelers with Baker & Co. It was almost five a clock in the morning, I live in Scandinavia, when I was singing Corvette Corvette so intense that my wife woke up and gave me a Brazilian bollocking when I slide’d down next to her. I was so sure that from there the only way was up with more satisfying results. I fell asleep with a smile that night but who could anticipate this continued roller coaster signed by firm Berry & Stefanski?

Fast forward a couple of seasons and instead of making progress the team has so far gone backward. New and old players has come and gone. Wild swings has taken with giving a highly controversial and dislikable character a record breaking 230M guaranteed deal. We finally got rid of Woods and unsurprisingly our defense got significantly better. That move proved if anything the importance of having qualified coaches matters. Do you agree?

So forgive me bonefish if I want some changes in the Browns leadership. I simply don’t believe that these two Harvard wannabes has what it takes to challenge for a Super Bowl win.

Our results don’t lie and excuses are for those who leave the party without a pretty girl. Right or wrongly that’s how I feel and I will continue to whine despite your irritation until we at least win our division or a play off game.

If it is his rotator cuff, I can sympathize. I injured my rotator cuff 2 months ago and still have TONS of pain raising my arm above my head, putting my arm behind my back and across my body. I have an MRI scheduled next week.

Unfortunately, "what it takes" is a mostly healthy roster, and there's nothing anyone can do to guarantee that.

But he isn't tough enough to play this week.

That’s one way to look at it without losing faith but there’s nothing connected to the Browns history in the last 20 years that support your theory. In fact the opposite is what we have witnessed with Berry and Stefanski at the wheel.

It’s always easy to find excuses but there must be a time limit for how long we can underachieve without consequences for those two who steers this ship. I personally have seen enough of controversies, bad leadership and failed results to come to the conclusion that we needs changes but I admire your belief.

“What it takes” to win a Super Bowl with current leadership is probably a miracle.

especially since all the teams other than us in our division deal with injuries and just keep finding a way to win.. its a poor excuse and an even bigger flag for the coaching and GM

The Bengals started pretty bad with a banged up QB.


When looking at Super Bowl winners in the last 20 years, I wouldn't really be looking at Browns' history, would I? I feel like your focused in way too narrowly on Cleveland and missing the broader context. Here's a PDF of a journal article that shows the correlation between injury rates and winning percentages: link

There are internal and external controversies. I haven't seen any indication of the team having been lost. To me, it seems most of the "controversy" is coming from the outside. Hopefully the team is better at ignoring it than I am.

Every fan looks at their team through their own lens.

Some can look at the X's and O's and understand what they see. Either from personal experience or self education and study.

Others try to interpret what they read and speculate on what they think they know.

This is not personal. It is based upon what I have read from both you and steve.

I don't think either of you have a clue. Both of you try to paint a picture based upon nothing but speculation of second hand misinformation.

steve tries to convince all that Berry has no clue about managing the cap. That he knows all about the cap. And the Browns and their staff do not know. He only posts when he can find some kind of negative angle. Every contract that has not worked. Every draft pick that has not worked. How guys are overpaid. Any negative cap angle. Any number he can find that proves his case. Guess what? Every team has that. But for steve it is only the Browns. Belichick, Payton, Tomlin, McVay, Harbough, what have they done the last couple years. Are their teams mismanaged? If they are judged according to steve. They are no different than the Browns. What have they done lately?

You have this idea about the culture of the team. Somehow you conclude (without any direct knowledge) that there is an unhappy locker room. That there is this festering rotten core. And the "Harvard boy wannabes" are unqualified. Do you think that behind the scenes of the Patriots that everyone loves Belichick and Kraft? That their culture is harmonious? Who has the best culture? Is it the team in first place? Or, maybe the team with the best quarterback? Or, maybe it is the team with the worst record and they love their locker room. They go bowling together.

Do some research on Andrew Berry and how he rose to become the youngest black GM.

steve looks at stats and for him that is where all the answers lie. He doesn't know about offensive schemes. He couldn't draw up an NFL play and explain it if his life depended on it. But he sure has an agenda about KS and what he thinks he knows. All that is clear to steve is KS is the source of all that is wrong with the Browns.

All that is fine. It would be more honest if your limited knowledge was admitted instead of presented as fact. An NFL team is a complex business organization. Success and failure are not defined by single factors. As much as everyone wants to lay the blame on someone.

The answer to the blame game is more complicated. That is why teams have constant turnover up and down organizations.

Like everyone I am unhappy with poor results. But there really is a big picture. And the answers are not always simple.

One team wins it all. The rest are losers right?

Well said Bone.

Mr Bone, just to clear up a couple of things - you don't know me so all that you have wrote is just opinionated garbage. If you don't agree with my post that is your prerogative but everything else you wrote is purely speculative and a personal attack on someone whose opinion you happen to disagree with. I thought you were better than that.

That aside, you said and I quote, "Any negative cap angle. Any number he can find that proves his case. Guess what? Every team has that. But for steve it is only the Browns. Belichick, Payton, Tomlin, McVay, Harbough, what have they done the last couple years. Are their teams mismanaged? If they are judged according to steve. They are no different than the Browns. What have they done lately?"

It's comical that you would try to compare organizations that have ups and downs as every club does with the Browns. More importantly though are how many winning seasons has Belichick, Payton, Tomlin, McVay, and Harbough had the last 15 years? What about the Browns? Heck, how many losing seasons has Tomlin had with Pittsburgh the last 15 years? In all those years, all 15, how many times did those teams draft before the Browns? Yet those teams continue to win, have better drafts, able to sign FA's the Browns could only dream of, play through injuries and all are considered successful franchises. If you want to get educated on the salary cap a bit, maybe you should read this article:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/...broncos-miami-dolphins-arizona-cardinals

A couple of key points that I have trying to stress (also detailed in the article) of the problems the Browns are looking at in the future.

1) The three teams that ranked at the top of the All In-dex last August 2022—the Rams, Broncos, and Browns—all missed the playoffs.

2) The Cleveland Browns are the most all-in team for 2023.

3) Neither of the two teams that reached the Super Bowl were all in. The NFC champion Philadelphia Eagles were 21st in our rankings before the start of last season. The Kansas City Chiefs, even with a high-priced quarterback, were 24th. Last offseason, Kansas City traded away All-Pro receiver Tyreek Hill for draft picks, clearly choosing to prioritize Patrick Mahomes’s next decade over the next season. Then the Chiefs, with a team filled with one of the most rookie-heavy rosters in the NFL, won the Super Bowl anyway. While they were planning to have their cake later, they ate it too.

4) Being “all in” does not equal “wanting to win really badly”! This might be true in some cases, but it certainly is not for every team at the top of the All In-dex board.

5) The Rams are spending 30 percent of their 2023 budget on four players who are no longer on the team (Allen Robinson II, Bobby Wagner, Jalen Ramsey, and Leonard Floyd). L.A. is dedicating more of its budget to those four former Rams than it’s spending on its entire defense this year. Like a field that has been sapped of nutrients, the Rams are being forced to let their roster lie fallow.

6) All of this puts the Browns in a precarious spot as they face down the gauntlet that is the AFC North. Ending this season without a playoff win would be an abject failure. A season without a playoff appearance would be a catastrophe.

A loss this week to the 49ers coupled with a Bengals win would put the Browns in last place in the AFC North after 6 weeks of the NFL season complete (33%). Tell me again why Berry and Stefanski shouldn't be criticized.

Thanks for a lengthy reply bonefish!

I will start by giving my standard answer when discussing right, wrong and why. Results don’t lie! Read that again my friend. Results don’t lie, especially when we talk about a span that cover more than 3 seasons in a row. It’s from that viewpoint I form my thoughts and opinion.

At the top of such a “complex business organization” (your own words) we have a Chief strategist, a GM and a HC who’re responsible for almost everything connected to the results. Drafts. FA. Contracts. Strategy. Training methods. Tactics. Play calling. You name it, but, they’re also responsible for creating a healthy culture inside their organization.

I apologize to you and others that I use so much space to tell obvious “facts” that you probably already know but I don’t do it to lecture, especially not to you, but to give my thoughts and opinions some contexts.

Every organization has injuries, internal conflicts and a bunch of daily/monthly/yearly problems to deal with. The difference between the more and less successful teams is how they deal with all these things. That takes me to the Cleveland Browns because that’s the team I follow most closely.

Since Berry and Stefanski’s arrival our results has since 2020 gone downhill. That’s a fact. According to probably the majority of this forum has our roster more talented players today then we had 2020. Especially our QB position is heavily upgraded if I listen to all the “experts”. Still our results don’t improve. Why’s that?

I’m by no means a expert on American football, I have stated that since my first time on this board but I’m learning season by season watching RedZone, full games and analytic tapes on YT. But what I can say with confidence is that I have 30 years+ of business management and working with executive-level employees. Both as an owner, co owner and a board member. The experience that I gathered in all these years had made me comfortable to share my opinions and thoughts inside this area.

Without having more inside knowledge and information than anyone else it’s obvious from the outside that the Browns isn’t exactly a stable organization. Too many decisions has been enough questionable to give the media and supporters plenty of strong arguments to heavily criticize our management and asking what’s going on. That’s another indicator to be worried about when evaluating how smoothly this organization runs.

It’s also telling when the GM and HC having public conflicts with several players that creates headlines. The Baker conflict was school book example of how you shouldn’t handle a situation when you want to move on. Talking in riddles when discussing the future, public lies about intentions, create a uncomfortable atmosphere when our HC publicly trying to let the player hang out to dry by not protecting his well being and health. Without taking side with Baker, because his part has lot to criticize, it’s a sign of a questionable leadership.

All in all there’s too much drama around the Browns that strongly indicates that the culture inside Berea has big potential to get much better. To put it mildly.

You can easily dismiss everything I say, that’s cool and your choice, but our results the last two seasons and a half don’t indicate success. That’s a fact that’s hard to walk around even if you dislike my thoughts.

Who were and how were their QB's playing again? How does that compare to the Browns? I won't even bother posting the list of twenty something QB names involved.

How has Belichick and Sean Payton looked since they lost Brady and Brees?

Your professional background is impressive. I am sure you are good at what you do and have the record to prove it.

However, it is not the same as the NFL. Haslam and many owners have had previous business success.

If you look at the current NFL landscape, or take a historical perspective.

Consistent high level play at quarterback equals success.

Belichick and Brady won consistently. Brady leaves and the results have not been good.
Tomlin and Ben won consistently. They have done nothing since Ben left. Payton and Brees won a Super Bowl and won a lot of games. Payton in Denver with a diminished Wilson. Nothing. Brady plays for Arians and wins. Brady leaves. So does winning. Reid in Philadelphia won with McNabb. Reid was fired when McNabb was done. Reid in KC wins with Mahomes. Jim Kelly with Marv Levy in Buffalo. Peyton Manning with Tony Dungy.

What level of play have the Browns had at quarterback since 2020?

You mentioned Baker as an example. There are two sides to the story. Speculation is not knowledge.

Maybe you are right. But we do not know.

Don't misconstrue my thoughts on Berry and KS. They are not above criticism. However, it is inaccurate to view results without context.

Looking at 2021, 2022, and not understanding the full picture. Then saying the results have gone downhill. And "results don't lie." They may not lie but in no way do those facts provide any informative data. Sound corrective measures are made when complete information directs proper action.

You could go around the entire NFL and fire most GM's and head coaches. Like using a shotgun to kill a sparrow. Instead of understanding cause and effect. Then using complete information to make strategic moves for improvement.

I don't want you take what I say as an attack on you. It is not.

I have been watching the Browns since 1960 when I delivered the Plain Dealer newspaper. I have seen more than my share of mismanagement.

A time may come when it is clear that Berry and Stefanski are not going to get it done. I have seen Haslam make knee jerk reactions that have done nothing but dig a deeper hole. When wholesale changes have been made. Years go by with no better results. Stefanski won a playoff game. He was coach of the year. Berry has made mistakes but he also has done some good things.

"Consistent high level play at quarterback equals success." It is still to be determined if DW can provide that.

When we see where that goes. Then we should have answers about the state of the team.

People always want to bring up the QB thing when talking about winning teams and those losing. I ask how those teams got those QB's? Did the Browns have equal opportunity to get those guys? How many times did the Browns have to draft Brady before the Pats did in the 6th round in 2000? Brady was the 199th pick yet the Browns took Courtney Brown #1 overall. They also drafted WR Northcutt 32nd, RB Prentice 63rd, WR Dawson 79th, DB Sanders 95th, TE Shea 110th, DB Malbrough 130th, DB Chapman 146th, and QB Wynn 183rd all of whom were drafted before Brady that the Browns had a chance at getting Brady. This constant whining about not having an elite QB when it can be pointed out over the decades the Browns had every opportunity to draft any number of elite QB's but chose other players. Shall I go on,,,,,,,,

2004 Roethlisberger draft 11th overall by PIT - Browns selected TE Winslow 6th overall
2005 Rodgers was drafted 24th overall by the GBP - Browns selected WR Edwards 3rd overall
2012 Wilson was drafted in the 3rd round 75th by SEA - the Browns drafted RB Richardson 3rd overall, QB Weeden 22nd, T Schwartz 37th
2016 Prescott was drafted in the 4th round 135th by DAL - the Browns drafted WR Coleman 15th overall, DE Obgah 32nd, DE Nassib 65th, T Coleman 76th, QB Kessler 93rd, LB Schobert 99th, WR Lewis 114th, and S Kindred 129th.
2017 the Browns drafted Garrett #1 overall and has been a great selection, but that selection also meant that the Browns passed on Mahomes 10th and Watson 12th that same draft - so was it the right pick?
In 2018 the Browns drafted Mayfield #1 overall and Ward 4th overall - with those picks, the Browns passed on Allen 7th and Jackson 32nd with either one of those 1st round picks.

Anyway, this complaint about this team and that team only being good because they have an elite QB when the Browns have had no less than 16 times the last 23 years to have any number of those elite QB's is just an wore out excuse ridden claim by disgruntled fans.

You ask: "How has Belichick and Sean Payton looked since they lost Brady and Brees?" I'm not sure I can answer that since they don't have the same 23-year record of misses in the draft and free agency. The point is the Browns had an equal opportunity to get every one of the QB's listed above and they passed. Quit blaming other teams good fortunes on the Browns inability to scout elite talent.

I totally agree with you that an elite QB is a necessity to achieve sustainable success.

That leads me into my questioning of the decision to “pay whatever it takes” to get Watson. From my probably amateurish perspective that was a high risk/high reward move that at the time didn’t make sense because of all the off field problem that followed the former Texans star. If it was one thing that was obvious from the outside was that the Browns needed stability and therefore going after DSW was contrary to that belief.

When I started to follow the Browns in 2017 it was a carousel of incoming and outgoing GM’s and head coaches. When we got Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski I had high hopes of a culture change and pro active improvements on and off the field.

Our new GM started well with improving diversity and trying to install a more stable environment inside the organization. In one of his first public appearances he gave a well educated and professional impression with thoughtful views that gave me hopes. The first impression I had with Stefanski was similar with a low profile approach and it was refreshing to see a new HC with less attitude when entering a new unknown challenge.

So when the Browns decided to move on from Baker it didn’t come as a shock, the signs was on the wall since the results started to go south after his injury, but the way it was handled came as a negative surprise. Both Berry and Stefanski showed stunningly immaturity and their lack of experience how to handle a situation like this highly contributed to the public brakedown with Baker. With that in mind then it was a strange move to go after such a controversial figure like Watson and then offering him 230M guaranteed. This was a huge gamble when none of them knew the outcome of his court cases. Another bi product was all the negative media that surrounded the organization and when they presented their new QB in Mars 2022 it ended with a PR fiasco, there’s no other way to describe it.

When the Haslams and Berry authorized such a costly project they raked the arena for Stefanski's future departure. Anything short of success would probably be perceived as failure. That decision appears to have been made without regard to who they were dealing with. Watson's history in Houston should have sent warning signals of caution and therefore the 230M guaranteed money was completely disproportionate to the risks that were available for all to see.

So here we’re without even discussing Stefanski’s talent as a tactician and play caller. That’s another huge issue with question marks around his ability to progress and learn.

I purposely left out all the talk about the culture because as you mentioned none of us doesn’t really knows all the details but from the outside that also looks questionable from my perspective.

So there you have three reasons I’m not sure that Berry and Stefanski is the right duo to take us forward.

Steve it's because of what I've posted 2 or 3 times; since our return we've done a lousy job drafting in the 1st round with the exception of Myles, Joe Thomas and Alex Mack and in 3 of those drafts we've had multiple picks and still screwed it up. That's why I wasn't upset about trading 3 1st rounders to Houston, as long as DW turned out to be really good for us. So far......

Damn keep digging.

There you go again. Only the Browns passed on quarterbacks who became great.

Only the Browns failed on draft picks.

What have you done lately only applies to the Browns?

Do you think that I am unaware of the failure to draft a quarterback? I screamed to draft Mahomes. I blasted the drafting of Weeden.

What has that got to do with now?

What is your campaign? Are you bent on proving the Browns are the worst franchise in the NFL?

OK Uncle. The Browns suck to high heaven. Enjoy the game.

The only one with a campaign would appear to be you.

First you act like the Browns never had a chance for an elite QB like other teams yet when someone points that out that fallacy it's an agenda.

It was you that said success of the other coaches has been linked to them getting elite QB's, if true, what the Browns have just been unlucky?

What have you done lately refers to all teams but lately becomes more important for some than it does for others.

McVay can be criticized for last year (LOL, no break for having an injured QB there) but their lately would include a 2021 season Super Bowl win.

Belichick has been suspect lately but they did make the playoffs without Brady in 2021 and prior to that 11 out of 12 years - maybe a pass on the lately.

Payton only missed the playoffs 1 time in the last 5 years coached in New Orleans, so I'd be good with that record.

Contrary to what you have talked yourself into believing, I'm not bent on proving a negative for the Browns. What I am passionate about is watching a franchise that has been given an opportunity to be successful and continually screwing up.

Come on man, you're a smart guy. How do you have the highest spend in the NFL this year and 3rd highest last year and not have an adequate backup QB behind your 230M investment?
.
How do you have the highest spend in the NFL and not have an adequate RB backup for Chubb when the NFL guideline is to "Plan for RBs to miss 1-3 Games per season." Especially for a team that focuses so much on the run and play action - yet no adequate backup plan?

I get that all teams make mistakes, it's part of the culture but the Browns are looking at over 2 décades of mistakes much greater than successes and the group we have right now have not turned that trend.

The doormat of the NFL has arguably been the Detroit Lions the last decade or more, yet they have even passed the Browns at this point and without a top 5 elite QB according to your standards.

The Browns are close, but the window is closing and with Berry and Stefanski in charge they are shooting for that one single season of glory and it's not looking promising at this point - thus the criticism and rightfully so IMHO.

You did a great job of showing how many teams overlooked those same QB's. Sometimes over and over again. Then you tried to frame it as though it was Browns specific. It wasn't.

That's not the point. If you're going to bitch about not having an elite QB like other teams (stating that's the only reason they won) but you had no less than 16 opportunities in the last couple of decades to right that ship is an excuse driven agenda. Of course, other teams have passed on the greats but we're not talking about other teams - we're talking about the Browns. I could give a sh_t if the Bears don't have an elite QB or WAS, LVR, or TEN. Those teams had opportunities too but who cares - the Browns have blown it for decades and that's who I care about. That's before we even get into the other 1st round selections that were subject picks when made.

The Chiefs won the Super Bowl last year with more rookies on their roster that any other team. What makes them so special that they can do that, but our management team can't. "I react very badly when mediocrity throws a tantrum of entitlement", Lee Siegel.

I pointed out the FACT that that the Browns didn't have a true franchise QB. I didn't bitch about it. You do understand that facts do not form an agenda, right?



If we wish to get into "Of courses" it seems to me that you're trying to complicate the picture by including the QB situation over decades to the current state of affairs at the position. Which actually has nothing to do with our current situation nor the current FO that created this situation. I find it hard to see how that is relevant to the topic at hand in any way.

And I certainly understand why you would wish to avoid admitting that many other teams passed on these same QB's during that same time period. Because if you wish to bring up agendas, ignoring that supports yours. But you did admit one thing that I find interesting. When I pointed out how many other teams passed on these same QB's, your response was "I don't care". I understand that you don't care about actual facts that don't align with your argument.


Patrick Mahomes.


I react very badly when people throw a tantrum while ignoring a factual explanation as they admit that it makes no difference to them.

Factual explanations is only valid if the team is temporarily underachieving, otherwise these “explanations’ is the norm, not the anomaly.


Not once is it fair to say that Berry or Stefanski has overachieved with all the talent they have had to their disposal regarding result. Injuries is part of the game for every GM and HC so that’s not a valid excuse when we talk about three years they been in charge. Giving away valuable draft picks and paying record breaking money without knowing if your 230M quarterback is able to play in 2022 is a comical incompetence and almost a sackable offense if it would have happened somewhere else except in Cleveland. All of this is only bad decision making outside the playing field.

Then we have Stefanski’s tactical ability and his play calling. Nobody connected to the Browns can say with a straight face that they’re impressed with what they have seen so far. In fact the opposite. Kevin has several times admitted that he and his team has being schooled by other play callers. What does these shortcomings tell us?

Then we have all the drama around Watson. His first six game in 2022 was underwhelming. OK, he’s rusty and needs time but is it really worth 44M (or whatever it was) and a lost season?

Then we enter 2023.

Against the Cheif he had 50% completion, 92 yards and 1 TD. It’s not shockingly bad but it isn’t good either. First game of the season so I give him a free ride without to much complaints.
Against the Bengals he had a 16/29 completion, 154 yards and 1 TD and 1 INT. Regarding the circumstances it was an acceptable performance if you ask me. Anyway in the end we won.
Against the Steelers he had a 22/40 completion, 235 yards and 1 TD and 1 INT. In that game he was bad and his childish attitude and poor impulse control was maybe a reminder what’s waiting if things go south.
Against the Titans he had a 27/33 completion, 289 yards and 2 TD. His best game by far with us. For the first time since he arrived he looked like a franchise QB. Well done.
He didn’t start against the Ravens and he will according to reports not play against the Niners.

So 1 game out of 12 has been good to very good. Maybe 2 or 3 have been acceptable with short stints of good plays and the rest (8 or 9 games) is nothing to write home about, especially when we know we’re obligated to pay him fully 230 M guaranteed and get 10-15% value back.

We essentially gave up the 2022 and so far in 2023 it’s close to another underwhelming season. I haven’t totally giving up yet but it doesn’t look good if we lose against the Niners.

With all the above in concentration it’s hard to give Stefanski and Berry any more excuses why we should continue with them anothet season. Yes they have been unlucky with injuries to Chubb and lately Watson but that reality is part of their job description. They together with the Haslams took a chance and it seems to not go as planned, that’s a bitter truth. We can’t sack the owners so who’s going to be the scapegoat when the critic storm is coming?

Meanwhile Baker Mayfield is killing it in TB with a 101 GBR and a 87 QBR lifetime.

Only one note this time.

Why is the offense and Stefanski getting a pass on underperformance at this time, AT game number five we're about to see @uarterback number 3 ???

Why can't the city count on an organization that has its act together? ^

the talk, of ac@uiring even more, even more players from outside the org. from other parts of the NFL as being any kind of an answer is more proof that analytics is a nose diving airplane.

Plays a HC calls are considered great when they work. They're considered bad play calling when they don't. Execution of the plays which are called is the only difference. In his first season as the Browns HC he led what most consider an inferior roster compared to what he has been given this year to the playoffs. It appears most want to claim he forgot how to coach since then.

I have not and will not make excuses for Berry. I'm not actually making excuses for Stefanski. An injured Baker playing most of 2021 certainly didn't help. Having to play a backup QB for 11 games last season certainly didn't help. And as you yourself pointed out, watson playing even worse than the back up after his suspension was over didn't help. But then you turn around and somehow claim all of those issues rest on the shoulders of Stefanski.

That doesn't seem to be very solid math.

Browns have the number one defense in the LEAGUE despite turning the ball over ten times in five games
and being way negative in the turnover ratio on the year.

IN your previous posts you seem to be criticizing Berry. He was not GM when any of the above drafts you listed took place. Travis Prentiss instead of Brady. You are reaching man. You might want to call Dwight Clark on that one.

Yep, he managed to put up 6 points against a Detroit team missing most of its starting secondary.

Brad Stainbrook
@StainbrookNFL
·
58m
#Browns defense is ranked 1st in the NFL in efficiency. The offense is ranked 30th.

Agreed. I don't really want to discuss Baker. I wanted him to do well while he was here but it didn't work out. When we traded him I wished him well. IMO Baker has reached his peak. What we've seen since he's been in the league will be what he will always be. I don't think he will ever lead a team to a Super Bowl and our FO came to the same conclusion which is why the DW trade was made. On paper DW gives us a better chance. Again JMO

Well, I walked by the TV and saw Baker throw a pass right to a Dline outstretched hand that batted it to a teammate for an interception. Don't miss that at all.

Yep, he had an awful game Sunday. Meanwhile, he has outplayed every QB on our roster. Let the year play out, but by the end of the year I think we’ll regret shipping him for DW.

Maybe so.
Maybe not. Long way to go, as you alluded to.

He had a similarly bad game vs the Eagles. That offense is starting to establish a track record of looking fantastic against sub-par teams.

[/b]

Originally Posted by oobernoober

Originally Posted by OldColdDawg

Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg

Originally Posted by PerfectSpiral

Meanwhile Baker Mayfield is killing it in TB with a 101 GBR and a 87 QBR lifetime.

Yep, he managed to put up 6 points against a Detroit team missing most of its starting secondary.

Yep, he had an awful game Sunday. Meanwhile, he has outplayed every QB on our roster. Let the year play out, but by the end of the year I think we’ll regret shipping him for DW.

He had a similarly bad game vs the Eagles. [b]That offense is starting to establish a track record of looking fantastic against sub-par teams.

Or looking like a team with a non-existent running game and a below-average OL...while playing against arguably two of the three best teams in the NFC.

Brad Stainbrook
@StainbrookNFL
·
2m
#Browns week 7 power rankings:

ESPN: 8th
CBS Sports: 10th
Yahoo: 9th
USA Today: 11th
PFT: 12th

Believe it or not, I'm rooting for the guy. I just don't get it when people are trying to claim that he's been setting the league on fire or something. I believe he's on his 4th team now. At one point, he lost his job to Sam Darnold and then got cut after that. He had that amazing game with LA last year and then signed for peanuts (for a starting QB) for TB.

He's had really good looking stat lines... except for when he plays good teams. As an aside, I don't think I've been giving Watson any slack for his (overall) poor play this year. I'm disappointed but not so much that I'm trying to make weird comparisons to Baker.

Yea, it was determined that Baker is not a QB that can win a super bowl. Quite obvious now. That is why the Watson experiment has happened. He now has a few years to show us he can, or the FO will try again. Career wise he has shown much more ability than Baker. He has been to 3 pro bowls and was the passing leader of the NFL for a season. We have only seen 2 games of that Watson so far. Last year vs Washington and this year vs Tennessee. Hopefully once he is healthy, we see more of that Watson.

IMO we are seeing the player I always thought JOK would be, and could never have become under Woods.

JOK was all over the 49ers.

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/news/nfl-expert-gives-high-praise-to-browns-after-defeating-the-49ers

According to some who love to reference PFF or whatever, he's a JAG.

Whatever.

Ask Schwartz. Listen to Baldy. Watch tape.

Determine what you see and draw your conclusion.

Foolishly determined… OBJ and his daddy had a hand in that. We’ll see what happens, but I expect Baker to take his team to the playoffs.

If playoffs are your ceiling, then yes Baker is your guy. If you have good players around him, he can and has proved he can get a team to the playoffs. He is not good enough to beat Mahomes, Allen, etc... in the playoffs. The Browns seen what Joe Burrow could do and seen the Bengals passing them by and made the decision to move on.

I think Baker and the Bucs will win the AFC South. If they don't it will be a major disappointment. They have no shot at getting by the niners, the eagles, the lions, or the cowboys. That is just who Baker is and he limitations.

That may be true. But then the Jets came within three points of beating the Chiefs in week four with Zach Wilson at QB. I'm certainly not disagreeing with you that Baker has his limitations. He's certainly not the ideal QB you would want to try and lead the charge to a SB victory. But thus far, since his departure I haven't seen any QB take the field for the Browns who didn't appear to have limitations. Not saying that may not change but I am saying we're yet to see it.

I agree. The Browns saw Baker's limitations and seen Burrow and the Bengals passing them and took a chance at who Watson was and hopes he could be here. We have only seen Watson perform to that kind of standard twice the Washington game last year and the Tennessee game this year. Over his career he has achieved more success than Baker and hopefully that success starts to show itself here. As early as this Sunday if he is healthy.

We just beat the Niners with our 3rd string QB, and without Chubb and Bitonio.

The Jets just beat the Eagles.

Never say never.

Everyone has a past. He could rival what he once was or he may never. Only time will tell. He had 3td's in that Washington game but was 9-18 in pass completions for 169 yards. I'm not sure that means what you think it means. He certainly performed to what we had hoped to see against the Titans. But then again if people such as yourself wish to point out that Baker has only played well against poor teams that same comparison could be used there against the Titans.

But then I'm not one who has tried to use that against either QB. But if I used that logic against one of them, I would use it against both of them and not pick and choose between the two.

If one looks at their respective careers you certainly make a valid point. The potential future success of watson certainly has better odds if you base it upon that. How that all turns out is yet to be seen. Thus far the return on the investment has been poor.

j/c...

Browns should be able to keep PJ Walker on the roster without having to send him back to the PS, if they so choose.

LB Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah - 91.3
The third-year linebacker had five tackles, a sack, a pass breakup, and a tackle for loss against the 49ers. Owusu-Koramoah is coming into his own with improved interior play in front of him. Quick instincts and athleticism are the name of the game for JOK, he’s doing it at a high level.

PFF Highest graded player this week is not JAG.

I really do not need PFF. I know what I am seeing.

I respect PFF. I listen to their podcast. They are not the end all however. They are not always correct. In this case they got it right.

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/arti...k_6_upset_of_the_49ers/s1_17313_39403814

They graded Myles at like 66 this week. He was playing against Trent Williams. He beat Trent numerous times. Williams called Myles a future HOFer. He is.

Too bad about Dunn ... he stepped in really admirably for us

He sure did.

His speed and tackling really stood out the past couple of games.

The play up front makes a huge difference.

Our front four is like a front eight now because Schwartz rotates fresh players. And tackle play has been vastly improved.

It allows our linebackers freedom to find lanes to penetrate. JOK is outstanding in coverage. He has the speed to cover backs and TE's.

Where he really shines IMO is seeing the flow of the play and using his instincts and speed to disrupt the play.

When I first watched his college tape. I was blown away.

Under Woods his natural ability was nullified to a degree. Not all Woods fault. Tackle play was horrendous. But in addition Woods played way more zone. Coverage assignments were confusing and the communication was not good.

Schwartz has simplified positional play. The players have more freedom to do what is natural for them.

Our secondary is playing way more man coverage. With the front four and the play of the secondary. The linebackers have way more freedom.

Schwartz is not doing crazy stuff. He takes away the bread and butter of the offense we play. The 49er offense is not much different from ours.

Motion is used to free up the run. Multiple plays are run from the same looks.

I love watching this defense. It is like lineup and let's play. We are going to beat you at the LOS.

I'm sorry...but that ^ narrative is complete BS. In 2020 Baker 'had his team' one Chad Henne jailbreak away from playing in the AFC Championship game...or one Rashard Higgins fumble-for-touchback. His 'good' players at WR were Landry, Higgins, DPJ and Khadarel Hodge...his TEs were Hooper and Bryant. If that = "good players around him" then I am an astronaut.


The Browns probably should have focused on their own QB's play against the Bengals rather than slobbering over Cool Joe who has the luxury of having (2) #1 WRs to throw to and has played for (1) coach who has an offense that is geared to Cool Joe's strengths and weaknesses. Weird idea.

I got over Baker about 30 minutes after we signed DW...I have no use for wondering what could have been with him instead of DW and with (3) 1st Rd + PLUS picks and a ton of salary cap...it simply doesn't matter...but the only narrative more ridiculous than that one ^ is talking about Baker's 2021 season here and completely and conveniently NOT mentioning the shoulder injury that required surgery...it's crazy.

So now we have a QB who is 1-3 in the playoffs and carries a ton of baggage...he's been healthy for (3) games - looking good in (1) - and there's already grumbling that the offense isn't best-tailored for him. His shoulder injury prevents him from playing. He has Cooper, Moore, Goodwin and a now-vet DPJ to throw to with Njoku and without Chubb...and outside of the Titans game he hasn't looked demonstrably better than PJ Walker. Last year we were told that he was rusty...this year the offense isn't tailored to his strengths...and I imagine once he decides to play again we will have a rust-removal timeframe to consider.

BTW and FWIW...I'm not trying to be jerk to you DotD...I'm just so tired of that Baker narrative that I could no longer not opine back at that. I'll apologize in advance if that ^ offended you.

I want DW or DTR or PJ or ? to get us a Super Bowl win...I won't care who the players are or who the coach is when/if that happens. My biggest concern is that in the 1.5 seasons that DW has been on this team he has not consistently looked like a guy who could get us to the playoffs...let alone win enough playoff games to get us to the Super Bowl. My next-biggest concern is that this FO went ALL-IN by signing Watson...we have spent $$$ like crazy...we have a Super Bowl caliber defense...and the one position that is most holding us back is QB.

It sounds like what you really mean about the KC game is that Stefanski is so good and had Higgins running so wide open that even Baker couldn't miss him despite the subpar surrounding receiver talent.


Really, it's just interesting who people give credit for what.

A team can win with Baker. To me, a team probably isn't going to consistently win because of Baker. I'm not saying he's the reason a team won't win. When things inevitably go wrong, I don't think he's a guy that can regularly overcome breakdowns.

Eventually, we'll hopefully get to see what Kevin can do with a good, healthy QB. ...hopefully....

Agreed. I'm starting to get my hopes up a little. In the past when I did, I was disappointed, but I hope this time it's different!!! ON our QB situation, why can't we sign a vet like Matt Ryan or Phillip Rivers or Carson Wentz for insurance on DW? I would think with their experience we'd be better off than what we have and it would just be money not like we're trading for draft picks. Thoughts?

The. Browns have had a good team/ roster for 4 years with one playoff appearance to show for it. Although that victory was one more playoff victory that we have experienced since 99.

That should not mean we are satisfied for the next 20 some years. It has been nice seeing the Browns flirt with a .500 record the last 3 years, especially after perennial 4-12 seasons that fell to a disastrous 1-31 record for 2 years. but this roster should be much more consistent. The FO have addressed many areas since the playoff loss to KC. But the one piece that remains may be the reason the Browns don’t consistently win.

The evidence continues to mount against KS, but many just do not want to see it.

Each of those looked awful the lasttime they played.

I don't think you'd be getting a significant improvement over PJ.

I don't disagree with anything you said about Baker. I don't see him as QB who can carry a team but a QB who can help a team. Sadly, after all the money and draft picks invested to address that issue, thus far I haven't seen anything that paints to a significantly different picture now. Almost one and a half seasons down and three and a half to go.

But as always and as has been the the circumstances since 1999, we still have hope. When all else fails we still have that. For all of the good that has done us so far.

I do not think the evidence continues to mount.

Contrary to that actually.

Besides the Tennessee game.
Where is the evidence that shows this offense is improving?

I really do not know what some of you are seeing.

I see a coach who has .500 written all over him unless he makes some changes on his game management.

And I believe many on here feel the same way.

People see what they wish to see and refuse to see what they don't wish to see.

Frankly, I don't care what others think.

Here is a plain fact. When KS has had good quarterback play. They have won.

The exception was Jacoby. Jacoby played good enough to win. However, the defense last year was horrible.

When Baker played well. The Browns won. When DW played well in the Titan game. They won and looked good doing it.

PJ Walker is a nobody as an NFL quarterback. He was given enough support by the defense. And KS gave him limited plays to get by.
Still he turned the ball over twice and damn near lost the game flat out with a bone head throw into heavy coverage instead of holding the ball and running. Or, throwing it over the end zone.

When KS was with the Vikings as OC. Cousins played his best. Baker's best performances came under KS.

Jacoby's best play was under KS. In fact it got him a good contract with Washington.

If DW returns and plays well. The Browns will win. Then all those who have criticized him will not post a thing.

That's life in Cleveland and every other NFL franchise. Quarterback play matters.

I only disagree with you on one thing. At this juncture some people will always find fault with Stefanski no matter what. They have dug in too deep to ever change course. I mean just look at this week. The Browns put up the second highest point total over the first 6 weeks of the season against a great San Fran D. It was done with no Chubb and a former XFL QB brought up from the practice squad.

Nothing will ever be good enough.

Bone very good points

My point is, he has had good players play well, but he can not find a way to win consistently.
There are soooooooo many reasons as have been listed.

Bottom line is win & losses and he is not getting enough wins.
I have said this multiple times the last season in a half. As many have been vocal of giving up play calling duties. Not give up significant input, but give yourself opportunities to see a bigger picture instead of having to constantly come up with a play.

The season is early. If the Browns are to meet goals this year, Kevin Stefanski will be much better at game adjustments and game management at crucial points.

I now unlike previous seasons do not believe that is going to happen.
I hope I am wrong

Fans are always looking to hang head coaches if they don't win. It is part of the job.

If anyone has the inkling. Listen to the fan bases in NE, Pit, SD, Den, Dallas.

I do understand that. Also, KS is not without blame. He has made mistakes. Pittsburgh has stayed the course. See what happens if they fall off the cliff this year.

KS is a first time head coach. Overall IMO he has done enough to keep his job. The keys to the kingdom were given to DW.

It was a calculated risk. People questioned it and rightfully so. It was Haslam's call to make. Now we have to see how it plays out.

Unless things go really bad. I do not think KS is going anywhere.

If DW balls out. The Browns will have a damn good year. DW will be the qb and KS will be the head coach.

I can not see KS coming back without a winning record.

We could have a winning record and miss the playoffs and I could see him coming back. I don’t know if I would agree, but could see it. Man that seat would be on fire.

There are a lot games to be played to be played that will answer a lot of questions. But the playoffs have to be a huge part of bringing KS back.

Of the teams you mentioned, Pittsburg is the only team whose coach shouldn’t be talked about. & Steeler fans have bitched about Tomlin forever. They have no idea.

NE & D look bad. Why would Patriots fans not be looking for the next coach?
Peyton will get time, it Wilson is probably getting as much talk as Watson.

So how is Belichick doing without Brady? How about Payton without Brees? Man do those HC's suck!

KS has not been able to coach his team to anything resembling consistent success nor improvement. He had an extra week to get PJ ready for San Fran and they had to fly across the country and play a game starting at 10:00am. His team played well Sunday against a very good team and he did that with backups in key spots. Great job actually.

So...now...lets see what he does this coming week. Will we lay an egg like we do so often after a good win? Or will we start looking like a team with direction and purpose?

one thing that teams have done to KS's offense: eliminated the boot stuff and really limited our screen game. When KS first got here, we really kept teams off balance with that stuff ... now, we are much more of a vanilla type offense ... just from my observation

Also, our YAC is putrid, and that's been a KS trend. We gotta fix that

The reasons for the previous bootlegs were because of the limitations of Baker.

It was used to get him in areas so he could better see the field. Baker was not good in the pocket. His view of the field was blocked.

He got happy feet. He became susceptible to sacks. Bootleg left on the roll created throwing lanes.

We are not more plain vanilla. We use motion and counters with options off the same looks. Not unlike the 49ers.

We don't have yac receivers. Moore was supposed to be that. However, Moore and DW have not played but 3 games. One of those was the opener when conditions were not favorable.

We currently rank 27th in pre-snap motion and dead last in YAC

I understand the concept of limiting Baker's weaknesses, which makes sense .. but I just don't feel defenses off balance like they had been in KS's first 1-1.5 years

Seth Walder
@SethWalder
Motion report through Week 6!

This is sorted by rate of motion at the snap. The second column is all motion (at snap and motion and set).

Or have teams taken away the screen?

I don't see the offense as vanilla, I see it as one trying to work through injuries and issues at QB.

We are 5 games in to a season where players have been injured and trying to find their rhythm. We are 3-2 in those games. Before the season, i think most people felt that was going to be our record. Just chill a bit. Enjoy the D and give the O a bit more time. Once they figure it out, we can be a very dangerous team.

I don't think it is Stefanski, I think it is series of circumstances holding us back on O. Lets see how it is working in a few weeks.

Here are the numbers from Seth Walder. The Browns have been disappointingly low in the use motion at the snap and use of motion overall.

thanks Milk .. yeah, thats a really disappointing number. In general, the "good" teams are near the top there

Could this be due to the changes we made to the offense over this off-season? I feel like I heard a lot about big changes that were coming with Watson fully "in", but really can't seem to discern what we're trying to be.

yeah that could be the case .. I do recall having us near the top of that "motion" list with Baker in KS's first year. I don't know what to attribute the change to

20-28
26-24

Which one is Bill Belichicks record in his first three years with the Browns and which one is Stefanski's

We've had backup QBs playing, so we've had a simplified offensive attack. Keeping track of the play clock and making sure everyone is aligned right when you've been with the team for less than a month isn't exactly easy without throwing in a bunch of motion.

yeah I'm not discounting the fact that we've had a pretty big fluctuation in personnel

Another way of looking at those numbers:

Belichick's 1st 4 seasons
6-10
7-9
7-9
11-5


KS 1st 4 seasons
11-5
8-9
7-10
TBD - currently 3-2

well it's safe to say that if we lose less than 7 games then it'll be KS's last year

Do you mean win less than 7 or lose more than 7

sorry haha yes, win less than 7

The Browns were on the low end of motion at the snap through the first three weeks this year with Watson at QB.

The Browns were near the bottom part of the league in running motion at the snap in 2020, 2021 and 2022.

Winning less than 7 with this team, then for sure he is gone. Where that cutoff lies really depends on his relationship with Berry and Hadlam. A good relationship and he gets another year with 8/9 wins. Maybe even 7. A bad relationship and 9 might not cut it, unless that gets us in the playoffs and we win a playoff game or 2. But then I guess technically that would be more than 9 wins

j/c...

I love Nick Chubb

Comparing KS to BB is ridiculous. Ski is not a great coach, period.

Nice job D Hop !!

K Dustin Hopkins named AFC Special Teams Player of the Week

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/k-dustin-hopkins-named-afc-special-teams-player-of-the-week

Without Brady, just how good of a coach would BB be?

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Bellichek went 10-6 with a young Matt Cassell.
He has lost a ton of coaches throughout his time and has been in the league forever.

Some NE fans may be frustrated but for the most part I believe many are ready for him to move on so they can begin another chapter. As it looks as his window has closed.

BB would still be a good coach without Brady but I really believe he wouldn't have won as much. How much less is a matter of conjecture. It would have been predicated on whom he had as a QB. He certainly wouldn't have won too many games with most of the QB's we've had.

Tom Brady left the Patriots in February of 2022.

In 2022 Belichick had a season record of 8-9. This year so far he has a record of 1-5.

Just because you don't like the comparison does not mean it doesn't exist.

Drew Brees retired after the 2020 season.

In 2021 Payton had a win/loss record of 9-8. So far this year he is also 1-5.

I think thou dost protest too much.

BB about to lose his job. Dont forget he is also the GM.

good for Hopkins .. he deserves it

Tom Brady actually left the Pats in Feb of 2020 not 2022.

The Pats under BB have posted records of 7-9 in 2020, 10-7 in 2021 with a playoff appearance, 8-9 in 2022 and currently 1-5 in 2023 without Brady under BB.

Payton finished his last 5 years in NOS with a winning record each season (4 w/Brees) and he's in his first year with Denver currently at 1-5.

Stefanski has gone 11-5 in 2020 with a playoff appearance and win, 8-9 in 2021, 7-10 in 2022 with a last place finish and 3-2 thus far in 2023.

So can you tell me how much better Bilichick has done over the past three seasons than Stefanski? It appears they have both made the playoffs once and both eliminated in the first round with two other sub par seasons. And thus far this season Stefanski is actually doing better. Yes I did make a mistake when posting it was 2022 when Brady left. I'm really not sure how you feel that makes the comparison between the two HC's and their accomplishments since that time change to any great extent. Same goes for Payton.

edit: Nope.

I am not the person that brought up or said that BB has been better than Stefanski over the past 3 seasons. The point of contention was BB couldn't win without Brady and that's untrue. BB had the Pats in the playoffs in 2021 without Brady and even more remarkable in 2008 when BB had backup QB Matt Cassell go 10-5 enroute to a 11-5 season. Just as it is untrue that the Browns cannot win without a QB of Watson's caliber because they did. Payton has had only one season without Brees and went 9-8 that 2021 season.

Though winning the Super Bowl is the ultimate goal, only 1 out of 32 teams achieve that goal on a yearly basis with only 2 of 32 or 6.25% making it to that game. 93.75% of the NFL teams fail in that quest to be in the Super Bowl every year. On the other hand, 43.75% of the NFL teams make the playoffs on a yearly basis. That figure basically means that every team has close to a 50% chance of making the playoffs every year due to the spots available. It would also lend credence to the reason for replacing 5-7 HC's (15.6% to 21.2%) on an annual basis for not being a playoff contender.

That said, according to reports, BB is supposedly on the "hot seat." IMHO, it's much more a continuance of last year's cluster of having 2 bum OC's and unexpected slide from being a playoff team as recently as 2021. That's the difference between a winning organization and the Browns because the heat is being applied in NE after one losing season and a slow 2023 start. With Stefanski though, a 3-game slide in 2021 after a 2020 playoff appearance followed up by a poorer last place finish in 2022 is to be ignored for reasons every team goes through. No team in the NFL has had a larger spend than the Cleveland Browns over the last two seasons. So, should Stefanski be on the "hot seat" on a weekly basis without excuses - YOU BETCHA!

J/C

Just for myself I judge Stefanski on his complete body of work as a HC for the Browns. I take into account injuries and challenges he and the team have faced along the way- and in many cases Stefanski has done well when facing adversity, nothing more obvious than the Covid impacted season, his best year as HC.

But with that said - and this is true of other managers across multiple sports, soccer being one that I know well - some managers can absolutely do more with less and can face obsticles and overcome a lack of talent and get the most out of those situations.... while at the same time those same managers can struggle to do well with talent laden teams, and finding ways to win and win consistently to challenge for titles and championships with teams that are built to do so. I've seen many managers in soccer specifically that can keep a title challenging team in the hunt and maintain a winning edge - but fail miserably in that first situation when given a team facing adversity and a lack of talent. If your a mid-bottom tier team you want the manager that does more with less - If your team is built to be a title challenger you want the other guy. Sometimes they can be the same guy - but not always.

I'd say Belichick has shown he can handle both situations over the long haul - I've not seen NE play the last two seasons to comment on whether he's lost it.

I've not seen - and neither has any Browns fan seen - Stefanski do enough consistently to be labeled a good/great HC. He's done some things really well, and he's done some of them consistently. He's also shown a few flawed tendancies and shown that despite talking about change and improvement, he's also done these consistently even in 2023. I reached a tipping point with my opinion of KS a few games ago - at this point from my own perspective and opinion, he needs to win and win consistenly and lose all the bad decisions and tendancies for the entire rest of the season for me to gain complete faith back in him ... getting pass happy, bad clock and game management (even though in some games it can be very good), losing to teams we should beat, coming out flat after big wins, looking badly prepared in huge must win games, geting cute on 4th and short, repeatedly calling the same play that has has a demonstrable history of having a high probability of not being executed, not being able to make half time adjustments ... repeating those would all be things that would cement my opinion. Having a badly injured QB and leaving him exposed with a 3rd string RT one on one with TJ Watt in a game would be another - although a less likely situation to repeat itself.

We're all Browns fans. We all want the team to win. It's okay to question and highlight percieved issues. Hell - last year about half the posters wanted to tell us there was nothing wrong with Joe Woods scheme. Look at us now - anyone think we have the same defense this year with this talent but Joe Woods as DC? I don't think so .... so on to the Colts. Here's to a big win and movement towards the positive !

What fans think doesn't mean

It is what the owner thinks that counts.

BB is the greatest NFL head coach. However, no matter how great a coach is. You have to have competent quarterback play.

Matt Jones is not playing to that standard. BB is going to have to find another guy.

If DW plays to the standard of competent play and the Browns don't win. Then KS deserves to be fired.

What is fallacy is not looking at all factors when judging a head coach. Haslam is no longer a novice owner. He has until the hiring of Berry and Stefanski made a fool of himself. He made poor hiring decisions. He fostered a culture of poor communication. He then made knee jerk reactions to his poor decisions.

Well run NFL franchises have patience. They evaluate all aspects of wins and losses. They leave no stone unturned to improve a team.

They don't run coaches off when they can see valid reasons to continue. They recognize that you must have a long term view and don't over react to short term failures. They are at the same self critical.

The Browns have been the opposite.

Perhaps Haslam is beginning to demonstrate what it really takes to be an NFL owner.

And Stefanski made it to the playoffs with Baker. While you wish to make it about Belichik not being able to win without Brady, that wasn't the message at all. So since you missed it, I'll clarify the message for you. Even NFL HC's people see as being great are limited in their success by the QB they are given to work with. Look at Reid's last couple of years at Philly. Look at Payton the last couple of years. Look at Belichick. They have produced basically the same results as Stefanski when they lost their great QB's.

Hopefully that brings the focus back on the topic rather than you taking it down a back alley.

From the 2020-22 seasons, Belichick has won 25 games as HC. Stefanski has won 26. Thus far in the 2023 season, Belicick is 1-5 while Stenaski is 3-2.

Stop pretending it isn't about the QB.

IMO, if you have to break it down between Tom Brady and BB Brady is probably 75% responsible for the Pats success all the years they were together. There's no way they would have won that much without Brady. Actually, 75% might be a little low. Belichick would not be looked upon the same way if he had some of the QB's we've had playing for him.

Which is my point exactly. Tom Brady left. Tom Brady got a ring with the Bucs. No rings since for Belichick. It's pretty basic math.

And the thing is I'm not trying to degrade Belichick as an NFL HC. He is a great football mind and is a good HC. But in this league if you don't have a QB you're not going to have great success. I some cases like Harbaugh in Baltimore you can tailor your O around a QB to maximize his value and have some success, but you aren't going to be able to sustain it on a high level. Look at Tomlin in Pittsburgh. How does his O look with Pickett?

Huh? Can they hang that ^ banner above the stadium?
This team hasn't won ANYTHING YET. pfft press clippings. gimme a great big motherlovin break. TwentyFour years back.

Y'all may want to act like the Giants didn't beat the Bills in the super bowl when the Bills had a better @uarterback, way back when Bill was the D coordinator
or act like the Browns playoff win in ninetyfour or ninetyfive didn't exist when Bill had Vinny Testeverde.

Bill Bellichic was and is a pretty good coach I'm just saying, his boat is named seven rings, or 8 after he won his last super bowl,
what the heck is your or my boats name?

I see you somehow think 40 years ago adds some value to the results over the past three years. Well since you would like to go there, Belichick was a first time NFL HC of the Browns for five years with a combined record of 36-44. That was his first five seasons as an HC in the NFL. Stefanski is now in his fourth season as a new NFL HC with a current record of 29-26 during the regular season and 30-27 overall. Stefanski also has one playoff appearance thus far. Now can you tell me which QB Stefanski has had since he was the HC which as played better than test Testaverde did in that playoff year?

I was talking about Bellichic, a pretty good coach, one of the best of all time who is going to be in the hall of fame, and don't give a rip about your petty argument over current head coach. Do you think only 3 years matter in history? That'd be narrow minded.

Per Dianna Russini of the Athletic, the #Browns have made calls as both “buyers and sellers” at the trade deadline. They’re believed to be looking to add to the offensive line and wide receiver rooms. #DawgPound

Agreed - I was just giving my opinion and not trying to sway anyone else's opinion.

Here's to a big step forward today with a W vs the Colts

Fingers crossed.

I don't know it we need to cross fingers.

My feeling is D is normally pretty consistent. You usually get the same thing week to week.

Thus far, the O has been about as bad as they can be. If the O can start scoring 24-28 points a game, we may not lose another game this regular season.

I can't believe we have a $230 million QB and we are just asking for him to not turn it over lol but here we are

The Colts have three wins including the Ravens.

I'd be wary of this game ... Minshew has a knack for keeping teams afloat, they have a really good run game, it's at their place, we don't know what Watson will be like ... I think it's a close one

You have an interesting fandom. You always predict doom and gloom, then are really upset when it materializes.

Expect more. The Browns are the better team. We should win comfortably.

we definitely are the better team. I think I'd obviously feel better if we knew what the QB would be ... time will tell how he plays

We are the better team with Watson at 50%.

But does that 50% Watson turn it over 2 times? That's the question to me

I don't want the guy who started today... 1 for 5 with one INT ( should have been 2).... he looked awful before he got hurt...

Watson either needs to be closer to 80% or else I'd sit him.... so far the Watson experiment has not worked in Cleveland...

The Watson Experiment is OVER!

If the Browns and dolphins ended with the same record and afc record and it came down to a tie break of common opponents minimum 4, winning percentage,.... to award a playoff wild card spot, ... big if.....

those common opponents would be the Jets, broncos, titans, and ravens,
ravens whom the Browns play twice Miami once,
and the Jets whom Miami plays twice , the Browns once.

0% true. We are stuck with him for years.

He is just here to cash out at this point. He never wanted to be here 100%!

j/c

we certainly cannot have the version of Watson that we saw yesterday because that was a train wreck from the start. You could tell that he didn't have it from the first pass, and it just got worse.

Maybe the answer is to give him all the reps all week and let him work himself back ... or maybe the answer is to IR him. I'm not sure what the approach should be, but I just know yesterday's version is worse than Walker

You should use all caps to really get your point across.

He may not have wanted to be in Cleveland, but I don't believe his is simply checking out.

Jake Trotter
@Jake_Trotter
·
8m
#Browns efficiency rankings:
Offense: 31
Defense: 1
Special teams: 2

Jake Trotter
@Jake_Trotter
·
6m
The #Browns are dead last in the NFL in QBR (33.9), passer rating (61.0) and completion percentage above expected (-6.9%)... and yet somehow are 4-2

It's all KS fault.

Agreed.
This speaks 100% to the coordinators calling things.

Schwartz has his defense #1
Priefer has his ST #2
Stefanski has his offense #31 (it ain't AVP because he doesn't call anything)

How many times have you seen the ball hit the turf in front of open receivers

Thank you Defense for the 4-2 record !!

I don't know specific numbers, but I will say it has been at a rate I haven't witnessed since Derek Anderson.

Walker had a handful of throws yesterday that were just mind bogglingly bad ... the airmailed throw on a slant, the throw at the feet of Cooper on 3rd and 10, missing Moore in the end zone with 20 seconds left, the 70mph laser at Njoku on a shovel pass, etc

he made JUST enough to put us in position again, but it's not sustainable

The difference is:
1. He's actually available
2. we didn't pay a quarter billion dollars and trade away three years worth of draft capital to get him

So, Walker's actually on the field AND performing completely in line with realistic expectations.

Priefer is no longer with the Browns.

# 31 equals the passer rating.

Your idea of playing calling is subjective. And the fact is inaccurate as well.

PJ Walker completed an 80 yard drive to win a game when only a TD would do it. Capped by a great call on fourth down.
Repeat that sentence. Understand who PJ Walker is.

But obviously that is not enough for you.

eh, whomever the ST coach is... I don't even know and the guy is and he's doing wonders. Wait, it's Bubba Ventrone these days, isn't it?

Still, the point stands. The #31 is offence efficiency rating, not just passer rating, and Stefanski owns that. It's HIS offense, top to bottom.
As for play calling, I didn't mention it at all, so.. whatever.

PJ Walker, TECHNICALLY SPEAKING, completed a drive. In reality, the Referees completed that drive for him. The call in the end zone was a joke. It would be horrific if called against us (like usually happens when we play Pittsburgh) and is just as bad when it goes in our favor.

That be Ray Ventrone.

Yeah, that guy!

Nobody likes bad calls. However, they are part of the game. They happen.

That is how the ref saw it. Accept it. Just like we have had to accept calls against us. 4-2 is 4-2. Kickers miss xtra points. They miss filed goals. Bad calls happen.

Did PJ technically complete passes in the 80 yard drive to win the game?

KS deserves credit for what he has done. I know he will not get it. The team has never given up. Given the play from the quarterback position it would have been easy. Plant the loss of Chubb on that as well.

The Niners game the defense played great. When Woods was the DC he stunk. Yet it was KS's fault. Now the defense plays great and that is because of Schwartz: and KS has nothing to do with it? Which is is?

If you believe that quarterback play has nothing to do with offensive efficiency and ranking.

I believe you are dead wrong.

If the Colts don't want penalties called, they shouldn't put an arm around a receiver's waist impeding his movement or grab a receiver's arm with both hands and yank. Just saying.

exactly.. dude basically lost the game by being stripped sacked and was bailed out by a call .. Giving walker way too much credit.. the reality is a sub 50 rating and 3 interceptions and no Tds while completing less than 50 percent of his passes... anyone saying he's sustainable are fooling themselves. We need a QB...it would be awesome if it was the QB Berry mortgaged the future for, but regardless, we need a better backup and it will have to be by trade. It looks like watson probably should sit for 4 more weeks to be completely healed.. he threw like a guy who didn't trust he was healed

I don't think I'm responsible for what anyone else said about Woods/Stefanski last year, so unless you can definitively attribute some of that to me, it has no bearing whatsoever on what I'm saying. HOWEVER, Stefanski *IS* the Head Coach, so as much as it falls on Woods, it also falls on Stefanski since the Captain is responsible for everything that happens on his ship. That is the situation he has chosen.



Exactly. Accept it. Accept that, without those calls, PJ and his drive were Dead in the Water.
And, yes, Stefanski deserves credit for what he has done, BUT he also deserves all of the criticism for what he has done, as well. He has earned BOTH.

So, yes, we scored (thanks to the Refs) on that last drive and we snuck out of town with a 'W', but he has EARNED the criticism that falls his way, too. 100%. And part of that is an offence with a 2nd-to-Last Efficiency Rating. I don't care about dismissals that attempt to excuse it, the fact is he owns the 2nd worst offensive rating in the league. That is HIS doing.

Almost all the local shows are starting to question the system as a whole. They look at the offense and players, and players like watson and cooper who were successful before they came here and they see that this system is broken, they believe its basically broken form of whatever it is. Theres no flow and theres no identity. I've said before, nick chubb was the identity, its real easy to make the rest of the offense look good when you have Chubb, take that away and you're left trying to generate offense with your playcalling and the system.. its failed. I do think a big part of it is no QB, and watson not being that good this year and hurt, we saw a glimpse in TN of what it potentially could be. But yeah, good coaches can take their system and make it work. Look at shanahan, BB going 11-5 when brady went down, Its not going to look as good as when you're starting QB is out there but it shouldn't look as bad as it has. If you look at the stats from yesterday in a vacuum, the points don't make sense, we didn't have enough yards for 21 points let alone 39, that was the defense. I think if we get something serviceable at QB, the offense will find the groove again. Everyone knows I'm not a KS fan, but I will say he's been dealt a crappy hand this year by Berry and watson getting hurt

j/c

I think in many ways Stefanski is a good coach. I've always thought our clock management is some of the best in the league. He is pretty good at taking lesser talent at QB and making it serviceable which we've seen this year. I also think he has made a good hire in Schwartz, which saved his job probably.

I don't think we saw enough throws to determine much of anything about Watson. He was never able to get into the flow of the game. His pick came after he was clapping furiously for Pocic to snap the ball in an attempt to unsuccessfully avoid a delay of game penalty and as a result he was flustered and underthrew (intentionally? didn't want to overthrow?) a ball to a wide open receiver while running out of the pocket, and the receiver made no/very little effort to come back to the ball. Plus, the opposite side safety made a great play.

The near pick came when he was scrambling left and threw across his body as he was about to get hit. Those rarely end well for any QB.

I'm also not sure if the early miss to Ford was a bad throw, a miscommunication (expected Ford to sit down instead of continuing route), or some combination of the two.

Watson didn't play well. I'm not sure his health had a lot to do with it.

We won the game. Good enough for me.

So passes were not completed by PJ on the drive to win the game?

Plays were called that won the game. The scoreboard tells the score.

I ask the same question once again.

Does poor quarterback play have an impact on offensive production?

Umm, you might want to look at Cooper's yearly stats again. Other than 2019, his yardage was trending HARD in a negative direction since 2016... until he got here last year. Last year was also his best year in terms of scoring.

Watson... yeah. Something is wrong... probably more than 1 thing. I'm beginning to wonder if he is going to be the best fit for KS's offense.


Berry rolled the dice on DTR being the backup. Clearly that didn't pan out and we found out the hard way. Berry needs to fix that ASAP, for this year and the next few.

not sure what you're trying to say? I agree Cooper is the #1, I like cooper, its the rest of the WR's that are meh.. But on your point for KS offense, thats another knock on KS, if you're good coach you adapt to what you have, not pound a square peg into a round hole. We have to adapt like Schwartz has done

This is just my recollection from yesterday, so it could be off, since I'm not exactly in unbiased observer mode when I watch Browns games, but I felt there was better flow to the offense and better cadence in the passing game when Walker was in. Of course, once the ball left Walker's hands, not much good resulted from it, but up to that point, it seemed like the line was blocking better for the most part, and things didn't seem as chaotic as they did when Watson was in there.

Our offensive identity in 2020, when things went well, was that we pounded the other teams with Chubb and then had Hunt come in later with fresh legs. I remember that approach devastating the Bengals in week 2. Baker was also able to capitalize off that in play action. That has gone out of the window a lot now with Chubb obviously being hurt, Hunt having lost a step and not getting many carries, and Watson taking less snaps from under center.

I really think they need to, first, I guess figure out who the QB is going to be, and from there, figure out a system that works. It was sad yesterday when I watched Ford go down a few times either behind the line, or two yards past it where I thought, Chubb would have busted that one open.

Lets have Myles and Tomlinson get hurt and see how well Schwartz adapts. ...Or not....

With Watson, you can certainly make this argument. It's not as black-and-white as you say here, though. With Cooper, this is just plain not true. Cooper was an excellent #1WR with the Raiders, got traded to the Cowboys and had 1 good year, but had been steadily turning in fewer and fewer yards each season. Last year in Cleveland was his statistically 2nd or 3rd best year based on yardage, and #1 in terms of TDs. He was measurably and significantly "less successful" prior to coming to Cleveland.

IMO, this is because he's a good fit with KS's offense. He's a precise route-runner and is usually very sure-handed.

Tend to agree with all of that.

The last part is a big reason I and others wondered how he could possibly have zero targets in the 3rd quarter of a tight game. Was he just well covered most of the game? Listened to most of the game on the radio while driving, so I really don't know.

Just a thought on our RB situation. I'd like to see more of Pierre Strong and also Deon Jackson depending on the status of Jerome Ford. We have to run the ball more right now in order to win or at least until DW gets straightened out.

HE IS JUST HERE TO CASH OUT AT THIS POINT. HE NEVER WANTED TO BE HERE 100%!

Better??

So depending on Ford's injury, we might be signing a new RB

Well, I guess we won't be seeing Deon Jackson play for us!!! LOL

Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
Browns’ RB Jerome Ford - who left Sunday’s win over the Colts with an ankle injury - was diagnosed with what a source described as a “low grade, high ankle” sprain that is expected to sideline him 1-to-2 weeks.

With this news and the Browns releasing Deon Jackson, there must be someone they are targeting to trade for or sign soon.

thats my thought too Milk

Don't know that he'll do better here than with the Jets, but Stefanski has some familiarity with Dalvin Cook.

JC...

If we are going to look for a back to pick up cheaply, I wouldn't mind looking into Antonio Gibson from Washington (especially for a late pick swap) He has great speed, and is a good-really good outlet back for our piss poor QB play. He also is a good kick returner, though I'm not sure if he returns punts (where DPJ is not the answer) Gibson isn't going to make us forget about Chubb, but I think he would do well in our platoon...and he's still only 25 years old...though his fumble tendencies surely could be scary. But I think he could be obtained rather cheaply.

great call tru .. Gibson would be a nice addition. He's underused there

Thanks 4life, I can't see us really bringing in a big name/big contract guy...and I think a back who is a proven outlet back, would be good news to any of our QBs...and anyone with proven return experience would be a welcomed addition...And Gibson does have a 1k rushing season under his belt, so he has shown to be more than just a receiver.

no doubt about it ... he's fallen out of favor there for some reason but he'd be a really nice pickup

j/c

A RB? Look no further than re-acquiring D'Earnst Johnson....

he's out for a few weeks

I think we are going with Strong and Hunt for a few weeks.

This is probably the most probable outcome, keeping those two while probably obtaining a RB off of someones PS...or a street free agent for a few weeks until Ford is back.

This Bubba

[image]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Ray_Ventrone.JPG/640px-Ray_Ventrone.JPG[image]


Not this Bubba

Brad Stainbrook
@StainbrookNFL
·
8m
Per ESPN: #Browns have a 58.1% chance to make the playoffs.

Face it, the mob blames him when the Browns lose and swear it's despite him when they win. The dye has been cast. The Browns gave up 38 points in that game and he still doesn't get any credit. That speaks volumes.

So by that very same logic, does that mean you're also giving Stefanski credit for the Browns having the #1 defense this year? Or are you blaming him for Woods performance and not giving him credit for Schwartz?

People defending Ski’s play calling and game management are lying to themselves. Same with DW being elite IMO. We’ll see.

Purp has it right. The buck stops with Ski in all coaching concerns.

j/c...

Familiar face and unfortunate fumbler, Jordan Wilkins, rejoining the team...

his issue this preseason was fumbling. Let's hope that doesn't rear its head

Super Bowl!

hmm, surprised we didn't go with John Kelley Jr to our practice squad, he played way better than wilkins in pre-season and plays hard at least

so there's really no update for Watson ... he's nowhere close IMO. He looked really bad this past Sunday, so I wouldn't trust putting him back out there for weeks

I would hope PJ Walkers takes all the reps in practice this week and they don't waste time with Watson.

Also, the back in forth between Watson's personal QB coach, Quincy Avery, and Brady Quinn in the comments under the Schefter's tweet escalated quickly!

I saw that too. Just a dumb look all the way around. This probably won't end well.

But you're right: we need to just give PJ every ounce of attention now

See, Bro-


that right there is why I still call him "Ray."

PJ Walker's stats YTD:

O TD's 3 INT's 1 fumble and a 50% completion ratio

I don't think we can keep winning with Walker.

no amount of polish will make the turd that is PJ walker serviceable. They need a backup, its been clear since the baltimore game, we've done nothing. That kind of tells me the FO is punting this season and ownership is ok with it and anything above that is just gravy.

A question I want to ask the posters who claim that both Berry and KS are incompetent is; if they are that bad, we must have the worst talent and equally worst coaching. How in God's name are we 4-2 with no talent and can't coach.

Mostly schwartz, and having a few zebra's on the payroll is paying dividends

it's about time lol

Yes it is about time for a bit of honesty and clarity...Watson is not capable of playing due to his shoulder injury and it is time for the Browns to give Watson the time needed to see if his shoulder will heal.

Now, the entire team can focus on doing what they need to do to pick up the slack and remain focused on winning.

Excellent insight. I can rest easy now that I understand the inner workings of those who feel both the front office and head coach are incompetent. Any insider info on how much we had to pay those refs?

yeah, truthfully the players and coaches have to act like Watson is invisible and pour all efforts into helping Walker ... game plan specific, play to his strengths, etc

j/c...

more than in years past apparently

typical reactive FO bs.. Walker is the worst QB in the league for his two starts.. I guess we will have to wait until walker loses a few games and then we'll sign some FA that hasn't played this year and by then it will be too late anyways.. thats kind of how Berry likes to work it appears. punt whole seasons because you don't want to spend money/picks. Yet throw the future away for Spergon Wynn 2.0 and 3.0

j/c...

congrats Myles and Dustin

Koo winning STPOW over hopkins is just trash.. dude did not have a better game nor was his impact greater..

Further info on this, the reason this happened was because we already used all the PS elevations for him, have a max of 3 per player

PJ Walker will start Sunday.

https://bleacherreport.com/cleveland-browns

Meh, he may be Jacoby Brissett without the offseason of practice. Brissett had some ugly games for us, too, and he had a lot more time to get ready. I'm not sure the talent is really all that different between Walker and Brissett. On the other hand, one has a much higher price tag. Brissett is likely better, but without Chubb and/or a dominant running game, I doubt he would have been as successful last season.

Then again, Walker has been really bad. Hopefully he improves with more time/reps.

Brissett, while not anything special is 1000000x better than walker.. Brissett atleast has a good TD/int ratio. Walker will lose us this game. Their defense is better than ours against the run so naturally that will give KS the greenlight to have Walker throw 40 times. Best long term scenario is walker plays like he has and we lose like we should, we still have time to make a move before the deadline.

You must factor in Brissett had Chubb playing with him last season. Can Brissett duplicate his accomplishments solely on his passing game?

Brissett won't be careless with the ball.. too many Yolo passes from walker and walker can't feel pressure to save his live and he's just careless with the ball.. this move makes even less sense when you look at his career.. he's complete 55%, thrown 5 tds to 14 int. Thats just stupid to think you're going to trot him out there and do anything. Hell if you aren't going to get Brissett, heres another name that wouldn't cost much and would be light years better than Walker: Taylor Heinicke. Wentz would be who I would sign. then brissett, after that, anyone thats available thats played signficant games and has atleast a positive td to int ratio.. signing walker to begin with didn't make sense. Berry has failed too many times.. at some point he's got to answer for what hes done in terms of the QB position..

Let’s face it. As Browns fans were looking at another lost and wasted season. The sad part is with a. little more thought and planning, like keeping Dobbs, it wouldn’t be as dire a situation.

He is 2-0 last two weeks. Leading 2 game winning drives. Just saying! I am sure the Browns FO is having discussion about other QB's but they can't mortgage the future and let another team exploit them.

j/c...

I cannot say Dobbs would be any better. I don't know.

Honestly it is hard to believe we won the last two games. But we did.

Maybe PJ will improve with more reps? He will no doubt know the playbook better. I would rather move forward with full practice for PJ than leave this as a game time decision.

i get the browns are 2-0, but he had very little to do with it. its safe to say the defense and the refs had a bigger hand in us winning than walker.. I really wish people would stop giving him credit, and if we're being honest, even the NFL came back out and said the refs two calls that directly resulted in us winning were mistakes and should not have been called, but there's no takebacks but I would venture a guess the refs this game are going to error on the side of not giving us calls and we will see what happens

And without either one, last Sunday was a clear L... probably a blowout.

It's that time, and a vet QB is an absolute must now.

Cannot sacrifice a championship caliber defense with "let's see how it works out". Back up the fuel truck and pour some more ga$ on the fire we call quarterback.

No hard feelings, Deshaun, get boo-boo shoulder figured out. We're just not going to make it a weekly soap opera while we wait, the season is too short.

Maybe some pressure from #2 will help him dig deep into his soul for whatever elite football qualities are left.

I have to give some cred to Berry for moving on from York and finding Hopkins. He has been unreal.

Myles is just Myles. He is an alien.

I am glad he is a Brown.

It would be something for PJ to win Sunday. It may turn into a cult following.

GO PJ GO.

I really have no idea if JB is better than PJ may be with a few more games. but i do miss JB on 3rd or 4th and 1. I was usually confident he would pick those up with a sneak.

We just need Trent Dilfer and we are a Superbowl team

Walker 5' 11' and is 1-2" shorter than Baker. He looks lime a little.kid out there. Trent Dilfer is 6'4".

This is the line of thought that pushed me into the "just do it, Berry" zone. Going and getting Jacoby back in the building isn't some sunk cost.

1. We've determined we don't have a capable backup, which is something that a contending team needs. This need persists beyond this year, so long as we are contending. I'm fine with gambling on DTR like we did, but clearly it didn't pay out and now we gotta respond accordingly.

2. Stefanski already started using Jacoby's sneak ability as a weapon last year. This is a wrinkle that we can add back into our toolbox the moment he's back in the building. For a coach that loves that type of misdirection (giving offenses a bunch to worry about out of the same look) as much as KS does, I would think he'd be pounding the table to bring that back.

We need our own brotherly shove back...

...or as I call it, the Cleveland Steamer.

''Something , something' Rump Bump.

1. It didn't pay out. That doesn't necessarily mean that it can't pay out. A late round rookie thrown in on short notice without a bunch of reps is going to struggle. Watson was a game time decision.

Jacoby knew during the off-season that he'd be starting games. He got a solid number of reps with the starters. It wasn't a "surprise."

Jacoby Brissett hasn't taken any live reps this season, it would likely take him some time to get up to speed. We've also adjusted the offense away from what he did well and towards what we wanted to do with Watson. I'm not sure we want to try to swing back the other direction. Throw in compensation and I'm not sure it's worth it. It could be if everything worked out as the best case scenario, but I'm predicting it starts out on the less well side of things if it happens.

Unfortunately, things don't just pick up where they left off. Each season is its own entity. Brissett wasn't a part of the work that went on here this (off) season.

I think I'd rather see what DTR can do if he actually gets some reps during the week knowing he's going to be the starter. We still don't really know how long Watson is going to be out. Kind of wish we were starting DTR instead of Walker this week to have that info before the deadline. PJ's had multiple weeks with starter's reps (in Carolina) to show what he could/can do. His numbers would look pretty similar to DTR's if some potential INTs hadn't been dropped.

2. Sneaking doesn't work very well on 3rd and long. Being good at it is nice to have, but it's not really something you build an offense around. I'm not sure trying to work in a new body will result in fewer negative plays which have led to too many bad down and distance situations.

...I don't think Stefanski is a table pounder. Just saying.

Jacoby could be an answer. I'm just not sure it's quite the given some people make it out to be. Making the move could also have long term implications--not only draft capital, but we might want to consider the psyches of the QBs already here.

For sure... nothing is a given at this point. Maybe my enthusiasm made it sound like a slam dunk.

For the reasons you list, that's why Brissett is our best bet. Nothing is a given, but he's had success in KS's system last year, throwing to just about everyone we have now except Moore.



It's easier said than done for me to sit here and say we gotta go and get this specific guy (who's on another team and is the backup for one of the most sacked QBs in the league). I'm just not sure how we can feel good about standing pat considering what we've seen the past few weeks.

^^this, right here.^^

If Brissett doesn't happen before the trade deadline, it's because the FO stopped drinking bottled water.

"76 Groza: There's lead in them thar pipes!"


.02

Washington has to be willing to trade him and for a price the Browns can live with. Those are two massive hurdles everyone is just glossing over. And Washington's starter hasn't exactly been lighting the world on fire.

[quote=oobernoober]
1. We've determined we don't have a capable backup....[quote]

Backup? Heck, we haven't yet determined that we have a capable starter!!!

Will Browns face the reality about Deshaun Watson and do what is necessary? – Terry Pluto

CLEVELAND, Ohio – The Browns are 4-2 with a playoff-caliber defense.

They also have a quarterback who is really hurt. Anyone who watched Deshaun Wartson could see he had very little arm strength last Sunday.

Watson dismissed that comment by saying he only threw five passes before leaving what turned out to be a 39-38 Browns victory over the Colts.

But those five passes were short. He didn’t look confident throwing the ball. He looked like a guy who had something wrong with his arm. In Watson’s case, it’s some type of rotator cuff injury. Different medical terms have been attached to it.

The fact is Watson could throw reasonably well warming up. But when he was under the pressure of a pass rush and having to make an off-balance pass from different angles, he had little zip on the ball.

Any type of rotator cuff injury robs the arm of strength. That’s just a fact. Even if there is no need for surgery, it takes time to rebuild that strength. That’s also a fact.

And that’s Watson’s situation.

TIME TO FACE REALITY

He’s not ready. He hasn’t been ready to play since injuring his shoulder on Sept. 24 in the Browns’ 27-3 victory over Tennessee. That was a month ago.

Then we went into “day-to-day” land. The Browns and Watson seemed to think he’d play the week after the Tennessee game even though he didn’t practice. That was a bad idea, and Watson was pulled from the lineup 2 1/2 hours before what became a 28-3 loss to Baltimore.

Watson took the field in Indianapolis. He looked shaky as he completed 1 of 5 passes for 5 yards. He had one interception and nearly threw a second interception. Both throws were short.

Then Watson was slammed to the turf, banging his head and shoulder. Even though he was cleared of a concussion and supposedly OK to play, coach Kevin Stefanski wisely kept him on the bench.

Stefanski gave a far more realistic update of Watson’s condition Wednesday, explaining P.J. Walker will start Sunday in Seattle.

“I just feel with what happened in the game landing on his shoulder, there’s residual swelling that’s affecting his throwing,” said the coach. “I think it’s the best thing for him to rest this week and focus on the rehab. And as I’ve told you guys, I will always make what I think are the best decisions for our football team, for Deshaun, and I feel like this is the best decision for this week.”

Finally, he’s not “day-to-day.” He never was “day-to-day” with this type of injury. We’re on “week-to-week,” and this week four.

WHAT BROWNS NEED TO DO

I started with the Browns being 4-2.

I mentioned their playoff-caliber defense.

I watched the 39-38 victory over the Colts in person. Then I watched it again Tuesday night on tape. P.J. Walker has helped the team win the last two games that he has been at QB.

But the Browns have won those games with Walker throwing three interceptions compared to zero TD passes. He lost a fumble. He’s been on the edge of disaster with other plays.

Having Walker at QB with this talented defense is like trying to win the Indianapolis 500 with bald tires. You know there soon will be a crash, a costly turnover.

The common phrase you hear these days is, “It’s not sustainable.” That’s the Browns winning with Walker at QB.

GO GET A QUARTERBACK

Browns fans are carpet-bombing me with emails about Jacoby Brissett. They want the former Brown back. The fans are right.

The Browns averaged 24 points a game and ranked 10th in the NFL in scoring in his 11 starts last season while Watson was suspended. He threw 12 TD passes compared to six interceptions. He completed 64% of his passes.

Brissett had the best season of his seven-year career with Stefanski. The reason the Browns were 4-7 in his starts was the lousy defense.

To be a playoff contender, the Browns need only reasonable QB play. Brissett is stuck on the Washington bench behind Sam Howell. He has about $2 million left on contract.

The Commanders are 3-4. They are looking to deal veterans by Tuesday’s trade deadline.

The Browns should not fall into the trap of thinking Watson will be back soon and perform well when he returns. If that happens, wonderful.

But I have doubts about a speedy recovery, given it’s been a month and he’s already shut down for Sunday’s game.

This remains a promising team that can compete for the postseason with decent QB play. Brissett can deliver that. Don’t waste the rest of this season with Walker while awaiting what comes next with Watson.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...BjiJxVwHsrs1sKqV3KQcdXHB-6RFQzIJSdaFLzKo

I totally agree with Pluto's article.

good article by Terry ... spot on

Going with Pluto. If we buy into DW will be fine and allow some undefined time frame for that to occur, days/weeks/ now into months, we are probably wrong. He was horrible and he was pulled and held out, with good reason. He stunk up the field and it might well have been worse; it certainly seems reasonable and more likely to be repeatable than a full recovery is this season. I like JB. Our D can help us, but it won't overcome wishful thinking, hope as a game plan in light of what we have seen. Get your vet before Tuesday; THEN if you wish to gamble the season with him, so be it. The current situation for this season seems painfully similar to drawing to an inside straight. It is a delusional bet. Even if it may be seen as good money chasing bad by some, it is a safer bet with a healthy vet IMO.
Maybe the FO or Stefanski want to see the last card and seem prepared to live with it, I am not that curious to be all in on what I have seen on offense. Pluto makes sense to me.

yeah, it's really tough to think that Watson will return to form this season (or ever again honestly) .. 80% of the time we've seen him on the field for us he's been bad .. and now he's bad and injured

we simply can't just hope he'll be back and be fine

I agree. It's still early in the season. They are still in the race for a WC spot. Their HC is on the hot seat and possibly their GM. I don't see why they would want to give up their back up at this point in time. I guess their minds possibly could change after tomorrow's game against the Eagles.

I just never really thought it was a possibility. I just took the idea/rumors as a great way for the media to get clicks out of Browns fans, b/c the fans would eat that up and they have done exactly that.

I got a question. All those thinking bringing in a vet now will cure everything. First of all, they will not know the playbook, so the offense will be limited, just as it is now. There will be no chemistry with the receivers, worse than it is now. While it might seem like a solution, it could easily be a big mistake. Other than Brissett, those problems will prove to be a setback to something already set back

This.
Spot on.

Get Brissett. Make the playoffs.

Roll with the @uarterbacks you have now.
Gosh I hope I don't have to watch Brissett on the Browns ever ever again.
Who could be worse. yes Trey Lance would be worse, look, there are a LOT of bad @uarterbacks who shouldn't have but did get a lot of time on NFL teams, but them being bad doesn't make Brissett anything other than also bad.

I think the whole article hits the nail on the head as far as how things progressed with Watson and his injury ... what I am most curious about is this line from the article. Is it fact or conjecture? If the Commanders are dealing veterans - it's a no-brainer. If this is conjecture then the reality of being able to trade for a quality backup is completely different.

I have no idea as to what the Commanders have in mind. I do know I trust Pluto as a sportswriter even when I disagree with him. He's pretty solid.

I just know that the current backup QB situation is what I consider unforgivable. Let's face it, there aren't even 32 legitimate top shelf QB's in the NFL or you wouldn't see so many questionable/borderline QB's starting in the NFL. But with the defense the Browns have a simply serviceable backup QB could make a big difference in the W/L column. It just seems like with the talent assembled and the salary you are paying out for that talent in salary, pinching pennies at the backup QB position wasn't a smart move.

We all know players get injured. So does this FO. That FO traded Dobbs away for a fifth round pick while giving up a seventh round pick in return. Leaving us in a very perilous situation at the backup QB position. I thought it was a foolish move then and it's looking even more foolish now.

For what it's worth.....

Playing the Devil's Advocate: What if DW comes back next week and is either still not medically ready, or is OK but plays like he did against the Colts. Anyway you slice it, we still need a serviceable backup QB (which we don't seem to have at the moment).....

I certainly agree with you. I think they should have had that scenario in place before the season began. I also don't believe anyone in the media has any idea when he will return. I believe it's nothing more than pure speculation on his part. That's why I stated, "For what it's worth."

Exactly and with our history of luck our FO should know better. If we the fans can see it why can’t they

I don't mean this the way it's going to sound, but do you really want the FO making decisions based on the team's history of bad luck? How could you ever settle in a roster if you are worried your players will experience bad luck injuries?

And I don't mean not having a plan for backup players, but teams make personnel decisions all the time and sometimes they keep guys who aren't ready when the guy they released turns out better.

I actually believe that there is a possibility the FO might be worried if they bring in a Brissett - he'd out perform DW when DW is healthy. Not saying it's likely - I think it's possible, which is quite sad.

I don't think Watson will play for another 3-4 weeks. If not longer.

Fort, at the most important position on your team, QB, you have to prepare for a worst case scenario, that your QB could suffer an injury and be out a significant amount of time. If I were the Browns GM I would make sure I had a more than capable back up to step in. AB did not and look at the mess we're in. We're on the cusp of another lost season because of it.

We need a lot. Linebackers, receivers , qb. Oline,

We had breakdowns defensively in the big spot today ... and our front 7 didnt nearly affect the game in the clutch like we needed

I'd say we definitely need an upgrade at LB

Oh, you're talking about in a perfect world. Most of us understand that if the Browns simply had a QB who could produce 3-7 more points a game they would win more games.

this.

KC's defense is not that great.

Nor was NE's when Brady was there.

We just need a QB that is better than our defense is porous.

https://twitter.com/LanceTHESPOKEN/status/1575899500904087552

https://twitter.com/Granite603/status/1576014264099254272

You guys are arguing about how really really good teams won their SBs.

Mary Kay Cabot
@MaryKayCabot
·
4m
Updated: Will Sunday's game between #Browns & #Cardinals be a battle of 2 5th-round rookie QBs? Could happen. J. Gannon might opt for Clayton Tune & Kevin Stefanski could turn back to Dorian Thompson-Robinson if Deshaun Watson isn't ready

No he simply made a dumb comment that Brady’s defenses weren’t good, they were

I agree. All teams need something. Lead is always going to find something wrong with the team.

/ducks

Not sure if you are laughing at my "/ducks" addition or the Jason Lloyd statement, haha, but I don't necessarily disagree with the take.

CLE -8 vs ARI

Over/Under- 37.5

On Draftkings

I was laughing at your comment.

Wow. I need to open an account. It's that time of the year where I like to get paid for my pain or pay for the pleasure. This one has a great chance for the double-whammy.

I'm sure more than half the board is giving you the side-eyed look when reading that tweet.

Today

DW to Tillman

DW deep to Moore

can't see the ball in the other two tweets, but it seems to have pretty much nothing on it in this video.

Give all the reps to someone else.

Exactly what I saw. He's not "firing" it, he's kind of soft tossing it.

I agree. The 1st video looks like a lob pass more than anything.

Yep. It's kinda hard to get excited about passes I could make after jumping up from the picnic table. It is what it is... at least he's "throwin' the ball". I don't think we'll see him in this week's game.

...then I hope he doesn't hog all of the practice reps!

But none of the passes hit the turf in front of the receiver

Oh wait !

It's not Sunday

DW, the Browns Franchise Cheerleader…

Watch him shaking his arm after every throw - not a good sign.

Please you see a clip from warm ups and ya'all know.

Nothing that is what you know.

Watch the whole practice. Show me tape of the offense running a play at full speed.

Show me a pro-day workout where every throw on a field is made. The head coach is watching. The OC and QB coach are watching.

When you can complete a full practice workout. You are ready.

This is not astrophysics.

All anyone can know or comment on is what they see. That's all anyone can base their opinions on. God Lord man.

I think people are trying to read too much into the open to the media/warm up portion of practice. Is he "shaking it" because of pain, or is he "shaking it" to get and keep it "loose" as a preventative/therapeutic measure?

Good Lord you watch a couple warm ups and talk about no zip. The receivers are running half speed and you know what?

Please tell me. "He should not play for two weeks. He is not ready." What?

You didn't see anything.

He will play when he says he is ready and the staff agrees.

I have read all the Board doctors. Effing hilarious.

From that video It looks, to me, like his arm is going to fall off. That's what I see!!

...let's see if I can track down contact info for a good optometrist.

What I saw was a QB that was putting no zip on the ball. Who was shaking his injured arm after he threw. Much like yourself I don't make a determination based on that. I see it much the same way you do. It was just tossing the ball around in warm ups. But man, people can only see what they are shown and that's all the evidence they have to base their opinion on. I'm not sure why you think that's a big deal and are getting so defensive about it.

I'm pretty sure I saw gangrene and swelling of the fingers.

Also, his throwing arm looks shorter than his non-throwing arm.

Could be about the short arm Rish. His throws were coming up short!!!!

If you have ever played competitive sports as a QB or pitcher... you know what this means.

Of course Kyler Murray will play the game of his life as he always does against us, so all this could be academic.

He will be rusty.

He's destroyed us twice if my memory serves me right.

I fully expect him to play. That would be very Brownsian.

I think he won twice. In one of those games (the most recent) he destroyed/dismantled/embarrassed us.

Just looked it up. 38-24 in 2019 in Arizona and 37-14 in 2021 in Cleveland.

I remember I was going to go to the game in Arizona and was glad I didn't. I'm pretty sure cfrs went with his brother who is a Cardinals fan.

I guess I was referring to Murray's personal performance against the Browns when it comes to him destroying the Browns.

2019- 19/25 with 219 yds w/ a 1 TD and 1 INT.

2021- 20/30 with 229 yds w/ 4 TDs, 0 INTs.

Oh, I don't think either one of those games was remotely as close as the score shows, which is pretty bad given that the scores aren't remotely close.
Particularly the 2021 game. That one was embarrassing and deflating.

Isn;t that one fo the games where (just like the Chargers game) their receivers were running wide open, with no defenders within 10 yards.

Murray has been a problem for us for sure. I hope they hold him out lol

While on one hand that sounds like great news. On the other hand let's hope he doesn't crumble the first time he gets hit like last time. That's my biggest fear in all of this. I'm worried that seeing him go out the first time someone hits him may be a rinse and repeat cycle until he's given ample time to heal up properly.

Everyone has an opinion of DW and the trade we made. I wasn't crazy about it when it transpired but I could understand why it was done and I give Jimmy Haslam, and Dee, much credit for making the deal. I still believe Jimmy's a good owner who has learned from his mistakes and honestly wants to bring a Super Bowl trophy to Cleveland. That being said, if DW leads us to ONE Super Bowl victory it will all be worth it IMO. It's not our $230 million. AS a long suffering fan I'll take it regardless about how I feel about DW's alleged personal actions. JMO

I have absolutely no idea what any of that has to do with what I posted. All I want them to do is give him time to be healthy so we don't see him get knocked out and miss even more time on the field. We saw that exact thing happen two weeks ago. If it hadn't been for that debacle he would probably be coming back healthy right now. Instead he looked terrible and was set back after being hit the first time he was on the field again. That looks to have been a terrible decision.

Martavius Bryant was just reinstated. I’d kick the tires if I’m berry

Jake Trotter
@Jake_Trotter
·
4m
#Browns left tackle Jedrick Wills Jr. will go on injured reserve with an MCL injury in his right knee, coach Kevin Stefanski confirmed Monday. Not season-ending.

No it doesn't. It worked out just fine.

I know alot of fans don't like Wills

I would take him over any option that is avaible

And those options don't look promising

Unless someone steps up and outplays

Zegura mentioned a name today to watch for the LT spot ... we signed him from the Niners practice squad

Leroy Watson

He was signed last thursday

thanks Deisle thats it

I agree.

I think part of Wills problem is a Joe Thomas problem.

For many fans the reference point is a "Joe Thomas good". If the reference point was Roman Oben, their opinion of Wills would be much different.

that's fair. It's tough to replace or come after Thomas. To me, it also doesn't help him that Wirfs has played so well. The average fan might not even know who Wirfs is, but I can't help but always think about him on our roster instead

Is Alex Leatherwood still on the practice squad? Seems like he could help right now.

Yes he is

I think a lot of folks on this board were actually around for the early years of the current franchise but seem to forget the absolute futility we had at LT for a decade. We would have been overjoyed to have a middle of the road or even a mediocre LT. Wills isn’t probowl material but he’s been ~pretty good~ and ~fairly durable~ for most of his time here and that in itself is very valuable. LTs that can hold up and do at least an ok job in the AFCN do NOT grow on trees. We’ve had a few huge hits this season with Chubb being the obvious biggest. But losing Wills, I think, may prove to be the back breaker. We will absolutely find out over the next 2 weeks.

let's see, I remember the days of us trotting out Roman Oben, Qasim Mitchell, Joaquin Gonzalez, Barry Stokes, Kirk Chambers, Nat Dorsey, Rex Hadnot, etc

Remember Bob Hallen? The dude who quit before a snap lol

It worked out fine "this time". Anyone who watched him throw the ball in that Colts game saw what it looked like. 1-5 with 1 int. and writhing in pain on the ground the first time he was hit. Yes, staring him in that Colts game was an obvious mistake.

Process and result are two different things. Starting him didn't end well against the Colts. Any QB landing on his shoulder awkwardly sometimes ends poorly. If he hadn't landed on it, he could have gotten hot and been fine. It definitely appears to have been a mistake now with the advantage of hindsight. I don't think it was obvious at the time.

Peen also had that hindsight when he posted that. There is no changing the end result.

There was quite a vocal group here that wanted us to sell our souls for Robert Gallery.

There is no changing the end result. But, you don't know the end result when you make the decision. There was an unfortunate outcome. That doesn't make the process that resulted in the decision a mistake.

Was it a mistake to play Wills now that we know he's going on IR?

Your argument just seems kind of spurious.

Maybe I was one of them haha I can't remember

I do remember wanting Aaron Curry pretty badly

What it means is that you look at the outcome of something and determine if that decision was a mistake or not. In this case it was. Even you yourself admitted that. Of course you come along with your usual dance to try and circumvent that. Nobody knows what the end results will be when they make a decision. But after the fact it's sometimes easy to see.

Do you think a FO believes or knows they're making a mistake when they're drafting a player in the first round? Surely you would say no or they would have chosen a different player. If that player turns out to be a dud does that make their selection any less of a mistake? Nobody claimed they purposefully made a mistake. That would mean they would have to be idiots. The only claim that was made is that decision turned out to be a mistake. I'm not sure what kind of "dog chasing its own tail" thing you're trying to turn this into.

I think we will quickly learn how good or bad Wills has been for us.

There's a difference between playing your starting QB when he's medically cleared and wants to play and making a choice between all the players available in a draft.

So what exactly are you saying the mistake was? Was the mistake that they started him? Or was it that he got knocked out of the game? (or got taken out to ensure he didn't get injured further?) Is every instance of a player getting hurt a mistake?

There are mistakes, there are bad things happening, and there are test runs. To me, this was a case of the latter. Injuries usually would seem to fall into the bad things happen category to me. And really, he didn't even get injured. They wanted to see what he had. The other options weren't great. They got him out in one piece, and we won the game. Sometimes the only way to figure out how someone is going to play is to play them.

The guy needs to commit to running more North/South. He always tries to take it outside and routinely fails. Last week was a good example of that.

the stark difference between he and Chubb is so noticeable ... we've been spoiled

I wish Ford just got the yards that are there, which he mostly doesn't lol

What the heck is going on with Ekeler this year??

Look at the distance between Mostert and the rest of the field. Dude is a beast.

I don't disagree with the North/South comment. This is also a factor.

j/c:

It's so odd the Browns v Ravens game is going to be televised on FOX.

Ford is no Nicholas Jamal Chubb.

That is for sure. He lacks the vision to hit the go button. He is late seeing the crease.

He is an ordinary back. If there is hole he can see. He will take it and he has some speed.

He does not have that instinct and explosion through a hole.

The Browns as a team are third in rushing. That is solely from the KS scheme.

KS using each back for a purpose. He is using the RB room and a blocking scheme. Nick Harris as a fullback. Direct snaps to a TE.

And he is not abandoning the run when it is not working great.

j/c...

Surprised to see Cameron Mitchell go on IR.

Cam Mitchell played a great game last week in place of Newsome. Sucks he got hurt. Hopefully Newsome is back this week.

I get outraged at the local media when they try and narrate that it is so positive that
a player who leaves or left the Browns winds up in a good spot.
go away local media, because how can that help the Browns fans, who watch and often pay, only hoping to see the Browns win.

A player leaves the Browns but winds up in a "good" spot?
How can that be in any way a positive? go jump in a lake local media, go pound sand local media, go fall over a stump local media.
arrrrggggghhh.
How does that help the Browns? How does that help the Browns win a game? It doesn't.
If DPJ goes to his favorite team and aww so nice for him, how is that positive for a browns fan? It's NOT.
go break glass local media. Does that help the Browns beat the Ravens? Get outta here.

Quite the (QB) murderers row right there. Which goes to the point: Wills looks damn good compared to anyone on that list. We would have been overjoyed. For the record, I think I was on the gallery band wagon. What can I say, desperate times…

I hate that stupid robot mascot of theirs.
Reminds me of something that was almost cool in 7th grade.

Wills is better than anyone else we can put there now. I'm still hoping he will improve and get more consistent although that should have already happened. One could hope some more. Every GM makes mistakes in the draft but you have to get QB. LT, and edge rusher right. Those are the most important positions. When you keep missing on those you're in trouble.

Hot Take: Browns call Josh Gordon after last night's voting result.

talk is cheap.. lets actually do that

Jason Peters is on the Seattle PS, I'm surprised we didn't make a claim. even at 41 is better than hudson

Think they may have added him to their active roster. (?) He's been playing a good number of snaps the past couple of weeks. Unfortunately, I think age has caught up with him. He didn't look very good when I rewatched our matchup or Seattle's game against the Ravens.

On the other hand, Van Noy made some plays for Baltimore. He looks kind of rejuvenated in that defense. Peters just looked old and worn out.

Except for when they played the Ravens the first time, they about abandonded the run that day.

Not sure how I feel about this if it’s true

He primarily played RT at Ohio State. But when the choice boils down between him and Hudson at LT I understand the reasoning.

Duh.

When you are behind by three scores. Guess what?

that could be a disaster.. Jones has been pretty meh last few games.. Might be an lingering injury and now you want him to switch sides? I rather put Bitonio there at LT

Hudson was on the right side today. Jones was off with an injury. Kevin didn’t say anything about any movement at this point. We probably won’t know until Sunday who lined up at LT. I believe it will be Hudson.

He did in Indy. That's what that whole segment was about.

Next time, it may be helpful to watch the video.

Jones didn't practice today.

He has a knee and an injured shoulder.

Jones may not play on Sunday.

That is what Hudson is at RT.