DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns News and Notes Part Deux

maybe there is a reason why he hasn't been signed, but L.Collins is still an unsigned FA. He's gotta be better than what we've got, maybe we did contact his agent and they hung up on us, or he still has a nagging injury but if we're going to make a serious run at the playoffs we can't trot out Hudson for the next 6 weeks

Is it just me or does that look more like Wayne Brady than Watson?

I was wondering about Collins as well when I heard he was dropped. It’s got to be the knee. Or maybe he’s just taking the year off with whatever the settlement was. But a former probowler and 15 game starter on a playoff team doesn’t just sit on the street with no offers. Something’s up

Long may it continue --- but 'stats' can sort of be misleading sometimes depending on how you frame it.

For 4 of those 5 games - the DEFENSE gave up an average of 8 points a game. Thankfully in the other game Watson played his best game as a Brown and while the D gave up 38, we scored 39. Or I guess if you wanted to frame it even more lopsidedly - in 3 of those games the Defense gave up an average of 2 points a game.

It's looking like the Texans are winning that trade
That sent Watson to Cleveland so far.

At least they got Stroud with their pick and not ours. That would have really hurt. Was the 2024 pick they used to trade up for Anderson ours or their own? Or is it yet to be determined in a higher/lower of the 2 situation?

If Watson ends up working out for us, we could still end up winning the trade. Kenyon Green and Will Anderson being what they got with our first rounders wouldn't be too bad. Of course Anderson turning into a gold jacket guy, and Watson never regaining his form would stink.

Then again, I do need to look more at the other picks outside of the first round as well.

I don't think we should judge the trade based on what Houston gets with our picks - I think we judge the trade purely on how well DW performs in his years as a Cleveland Brown. If Houston knocked it out of the park with every pick - future HOFers and all stars - it doesn't really make a diffference. If Watson plays as well as he did vs the Titans this year for most of the games he plays - that's worth the trade and with this defense that will take you a long way into play offs most years. If Watson plays like he has for most of his other games while he was either rusty or hurt - then we lose the trade. If Watson play better than he was when rusty and hurt - but well below the Titans game ... then he'd be an average 'meh' QB and we still lose the trade. Finding elite QB's is really hard - but giving up 3 first round picks plus some for an average NFL QB just isn't good value no matter what.

I agree. If Watson plays well, it was a good trade. If not, it wasn't. It doesn't matter what Houston did, or will do.

well, regardless of his health, he's on the clock, and was last year, too just as he has been this entire year. If you trade for a player, but that player is frequently unable to get on the field, it wasn't a good trade. It's unfortunate, and it may even have had a good probability of working out, but the result is still the same: draft capital and money lost for no payback. So the march doesn't begin this weekend except in the sense that he - hopefully - begins to reverse the trend to date. He's been on the march since he got here; he's just been marching in place. Here's hoping that he starts marching like a unit about to graduate boot camp

I also agree with this. Injured or not, you still aren't getting the anticipated results. It may not be the players fault, but in so far as the trade, that doesn't matter.

If you go buy a $60,000 Lexus, you expect it to be comfortable and run like a top. If it is always breaking down, you aren't going to be happy and question why you even bought the thing.

I agree Bone and stated the same thing on one of my posts. One Super Bowl victory with DW and the trade is a success. JMO

So the assets gained from a trade are not part of the outcome of that trade? Alrighty then.

It is only accurate if you look at ALL of the results you have so far, and those results, thus far, are not good.
So, if you're in the first year, and it is a #1 Overall pick that you spent a ton of capital to trade up for, then YES, it ABSOLUTELY is accurate, and entirely fair, to be extra critical of that first year.
Does it write the entire book? No, certainly not, but it 100%, irrefutably, does write the book to that point.

I'm not sure how that relates to having acquired a car you can't drive. I mean you took possession of the car before it was wrecked. It's your car. But I think you're fully aware that a contract is something totally different. Those are judged by the investment verses the reward. Nobody knows how that will all play out over the life of the contract but we can see where the status stands at the current time.

As if Watson has been outstanding as QB1… smh.

Unfortunately, we weren't buying a Lexus for cruising the highways in. If we're sticking with the vehicle theme, we were more buying a destruction derby car. We knew it was going to get knocked around. It's part of the nature of its usage/purpose. Hopefully we've got it tuned up/"hardened" to better survive/win its upcoming matches and have worked out some kinks.

This is year two of watson being here. And nobody pays 230 million dollars to a rookie QB. And of course those wins you cite had nothing to do with the defense, right? At least three of them most certainly did.

It isn't judging prematurely. It is judging on the existing body of evidence and we all get to do that because this is where the Draft analogy dies.
We didn't draft a guy that wasn't ready and needed time to learn an NFL offense and get acclimated to the speed of the game. We traded for, and paid a king's ransom for, a veteran with a previously proven track record at this level.
What we were rewarded with last year was a series of performances that would make a 5th round rookie QB look good.



well, gee, thanks for the permission!



His judgement is a continuous, ongoing thing. Thus far, he and his time in Cleveland has been a complete waste of time and resources. Period. It is on him to change that around. He can do that, but it is on him and there are no excuses. He has to perform to the level worthy of the trade, and that is something he has only done in very small and infrequent measures thus far.

What would you do with that extra 230 million in cap money and three first round draft picks?

NO!!!!

Well, we're still waiting to see IF dw will pan out. He hasn't even played in half the games he's been on the team. I hope for the best. But judging him now is ok as well. So far, not so good.

And thus far we did nothing last year and are two games behind first place in the division this year. Usually people wait until someone has accomplished something before they sing their praises.

Oh he certainly has a record in the NFL. Now if your claim is that the Browns have a terrible track record at drafting QB's there's no denying that. But thus far the the juice isn't worth the squeeze. That's where the Browns are. I haven't seen anyone say otherwise or predict the future. None of us can do that effectively. But the Browns are where they are and thus far that isn't worth the money and draft picks they've paid out over the last two seasons for the QB position.

I don't know about the 230 million but with our track record we probably would have swung and missed with the 3 1st round picks LOL!!!!

C''mon, not even baseball would give a pitcher credit for a game if he bowed out in the middle of the first or 2nd inning.
PJ Walker won the game DW started against Indianapolis.

His record as a Brown is 6 and 4? ?? tell the real story, 6 and 4 through about NINETEEN games. how many? about that many,

4 and seven without him last year, 3 and 3 with him last year. ...
2 and one with him this year and , bowed out early..got hurt against Indy, ... then, they beat ARizona so 3 and one with DW this year,

2 and 2 without, him this year, Walker 2 and one, and D. Thompson Robinson 0 and one.

6 and 4 since he became a Brown in games he played the largest part of. and
since he became a Brown fifteen games he wasn't able to take the largest part in, so

yeah he's 6 and 4 since he became a Brown , he's also
SIX WINS IN TWENTY FIVE GAMES SINCE HE BECAME A BROWN. Oh my gosh, oh the humanity, the travesty can we say it like that. Can we say it like that.

300 yard games? oh my gosh? heck no, Expect one by the end of the year?? What, are you nuts to expect that from this offense , this is the Kevin 'negative 3 points in the first half' Stefanski offense, we couldn't possibly expect a 2 min. offense in ... once in twenty five years back since nineteen ninety nine, let alone ONE 300 yard game before the year ends; <
that would be nuts;;;; root for what we got, Woo Hoo, Go Browns, \0/ rip em up with the worst offen... passing offense in the league.
Offense? we don't need no stinking offense,

His record is 6 and 4 as a Brown. In Twenty Five Games, since the trade say it out loud.
Go Browns I want More. Woo Hoo \0/

Let's be perfectly frank about the Watson trade. Watson is being paid $2,705,882 for every regular season game the Browns play - whether he plays or not. Watson has played 10 games out of 25 scheduled games with the Browns. The Browns have paid $67,647,057 to date for those 10 games played or $6,764,706 per played game. There is no other QB in the NFL that comes close to making that kind of money per game.

To take it a step further, Watson has only beaten one (1) team that had a winning record when they played (Baltimore in 2022 with a backup QB). That means that 5 of his 6 wins have come against teams with .500 or worse records. Watson is currently 2-3 in games he's played within the AFC North. Watson has zero games played thus far where he has thrown for over 300 yards and only 5 of his 10 games have been over 200 yards passing. That's 50% of their games that Watson has played where he has thrown for under 200 yards passing. No matter how you spin it, those are not the type of numbers expected when signing an experienced Pro Bowl QB to a 230M guaranteed contract.

Neither I nor anyone else has a crystal ball to predict the future but to date, Watson is a shell of the QB the Browns mortgage the team for. I fully expect him to get better but top 5 elite seems it be a real stretch at this point in time considering his performance to date.

That's presumptive on your part. The Browns have never won the AFC North and technically are in contention the start of every season. Unless you have the crystal ball no one else possesses, the trade has not currently lived up to your presumption.

You might have the picks, but to be fair, you wouldn't have $230 mil since you would be paying some other QB.

We can include picks in the valuation, but going back to the original question, you can't factor in what Houston does with the picks. That doesn't matter. We can't factor in what we might have done with the picks.

The money paid isn't even a part of the trade. The money doesn't matter when talking about the trade. The trade was for picks. End of story there.

Or you may have drafted a different QB.


So your claim is the assets they gain in total makes no difference?


The money and the picks is the totality of the price paid to get watson. Unless the draft picks and that contract were not invested, watson wouldn't be here. Maybe you have forgotten that he refused to come here until they made that contract 100% guaranteed. End of story.

When you combine those picks in a draft day trade scenario, you'll never know who the Browns may have gotten at QB. So the whole "If we didn't get watson we wouldn't have a QB" story is a conclusion not based in fact. None of know if that is true.