DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The part of the DW trade that is forgotten

It takes 2 to dance. The team that the Browns acquired DW
From aka the Houston Texans is looking like a sleeping
Giant. They are ahead of schedule in their rebuilding process
They are a bit similar to the Bengals a few years ago.
Big QB production and a emerging offense.
And a defense that quietly makes big time plays.
Oh by the way the ever so intelligent Browns front office
Gave the Texans 3 1st RD draft picks to help
Accelerate their progress.
Tides turn quick in the NFL. The Texans are a legit threat
To the Chiefs. Plus they have loads of money under
The salary cap.
If the Texans make it to.the SB in the next 4 years
They can thank the Cleveland Browns for it.

Cool.

I'll never fault our FO for TRYING to solve the QB position ... we've basically failed at it for 30 years and it's held us back

At this point, we can't worry about what we gave up .. we have a good enough TEAM to compete. We have to hope that the QB position can keep the boat afloat.

They hit on a QB from their own draft pick not the Browns. They used some Browns picks to move up to get a pass rusher from Alabama. Which moved the needle more? Besides that if Watson does not get injured the Browns are 6-3 the Texans 5-4. Spin that however you like.

I can understand that thought process. I guess the question now is has the FO actually solved the QB position? Two years after the trade, has the FO solved the QB position in Cleveland or is the team still basing success of the move still based on the players performance in 2020 and earlier? The Browns traded for an experienced top 5 elite QB. Have the Browns received consistent elite performance over these first 2 years? This is or was not a trade that was expected to take 3-years to show a ROI. I can also agree somewhat that the Browns have basically failed at finding the elite franchise QB for 30 years. The question is from what we have seen actually produced in 10 game performance over the last 2-years any different from what we seen the last 30 in its totality? Remember this, the acquisition was made not because the team wasn't good or couldn't win - it was supposedly made because the Browns did not have a top 5 elite QB that could take them to the ultimate goal of a Super Bowl, not just the playoffs.

For all the draft picks sacrificed and 230M invested, have the Browns without a doubt received what the FO traded for as of today? Is the position of QB for the Cleveland Browns today in any better shape than it was in January 2022 when the Browns FO started on this franchise crippling quest. No is the only viable answer.

Yes it is. Watson and the Browns went into Baltimore and beat Lamar Jackson. Watson outperformed Lamar in that game and carried the team behind a 14 for 14 completions and 2TD performance in the 2nd half. Leading the team to 3 Touchdown drives in the 2nd half on a team that has not given up 2 TD's in a game at home all season. The team is 8-4 with Watson under center since last year week 12 and were positioned for a playoff push and contending for a Division title. This team has not competed for a Division title since they came back in 1999 and have not won a Division title since 1989.

No they definitely didnt solve it ... they've made it more frustrating and murky. We are good DESPITE the QB position.

They tried ... it failed

Just cause you beat the Ravens in 1 game that hardly justifies
The trade. The Ravens still have yet to advance far in
The playoffs with Lamar Jackson
It looks like now the Texans are getting the better of the trade

Funny how some people hang their hat on the 2nd half of the BAL game ignoring the first half. I'm not trying to deflate his 2nd half performance because it was actually good but did the Browns really pay for just a good half of QB play? It's also hilarious that the Indy win keeps getting put in the Watson win column for some reason.

Watson still has a 44.7 QBR for the 2023 season that currently ranks him 23rd. That's behind those other elite QB's like 22nd ranked Love GPB, 21st ranked Howell WAS, 14th ranked Mayfield TBB, 13th ranked Dobbs MIN, 11th ranked Minshew IND, and 10th ranked Stroud HOU and just barely better than 26th ranked Jones NEP and 24th ranked Ridder ATL. Yet some will attempt to argue that the Browns have received what they have paid for?

I'll never fault Evel Knievel for trying to jump the Snake River Canyon either but that doesn't mean it turned out well. We live in a results oriented world. Ford tried with the Edsel too.

For what it is worth, they got a terrible OG that is currently on IR and a Linebacker that they had to give up a ton more capital to go get.
The rest of the trade stuff is so muddled in further trades that it's just a wash. We actually ended up getting Emerson as a result of some of that further trading, which bolsters our side of it.

Furthermore, even when you look at who we might have picked based on who wasn't taken yet at the point of our original picks (2022 #13 and 2023 #12), the names available aren't all that impressive, and because the rest of our roster is already so freaking solid, they wouldn't have provided anywhere near the impact people want to think..... unless someone wants to suggest that we could have stolen Kenny Pickett from Pittsburgh, lol

So, while we definitely haven't gotten any appreciable value from the trade, at all, they have done poorly enough with it that it's actually a push, in my opinion... and I have NEVER been a fan of that trade.

It's not Henry's fault the public couldn't appreciate the Corsair!

My thoughts are along the same lines ^. Whether one likes it or not...DW4...Baker...the $$$...and the picks will be a part of the Browns fandom discussion for a decade or more. It is what it is.

I'm more 'frustrated' that we didn't make a move in '21 at the trade deadline to get a DT and WR...positions we knew were weak in training camp...save cap for 'later' and all that jazz;

Then in '22 we went all-in for DW4 gambling that he'd 'only' be out 4-6 games...poof...there went the '22 season...our DTs were still epically bad at the trade deadline...save the cap for 'later' and all that jazz...that would have bit us in the rear even if DW4 had found his stride when he got back;

Then in '23 we decided that a 5th Rd rookie was good-enough to be the backup...but after one surprise start, we went to a PS guy as the QB. Boy...we sure saved the cap $$$ (again ) on not having a viable backup QB...so damn smart we are.

How did that happen? Plan for next year? Sure. Play and roster for next year? Ok...but not when you think you are in your 'window'.

I'd say the same think if we DID have Dobbs now....that's still not good enough (at least when we broke camp) when you are in your window.

The Bengals are taking chance at their backup too...but they are cheap azzezz. There isn't a backup much better for the Rats to have because LJ is so unique...Pitt is already starting a backup-quality QB.

HINDSIGHT ALERT: If we were so willing to sniff around Brissett at the trade deadline...why did we roll-the-dice while in the window on a 5th Rd rookie as backup QB.

Looking at these moves singularly it doesn't look so bad. But there is a pattern here that isn't very logical.

Side Note on all of this: We ALL *KNEW* that our DTs sucked as far back as 2021. The player selected at our original #13 2022 spot was DT Jordan Davis, Philly.
I don't know a ton about him, but Philly has a pretty solid DLine and his production thus far is very comparable to our DTs, and he'd have been a whole lot cheaper.

According to some on here it's never anyone's fault when something fails. You gotta blame that $#!+ on somebody.

I'll raise you Crystal Pepsi and New Coke.

What failed and QB was injured. An injury is not a failure. The team is 6-3. If DTR can get the team to the playoffs again what failed? The assumption being made is the Watson trade was a failure. He is 8-4 as starter for the Browns. Fact! Currently he as QB has led this team to a 6-3. Fact! That record has positioned the team well for a run at the post season and even a division title. That is what Watson was brought here to do. The problem is now he is injured. That is not a failure. That is injuries do happen.

Watson hasn't played in 11 games last year and only in how many games this year? Other than the Indy game where he threw a total of five passes before leaving the game after five pass attempts going 1-5 with 1 int., he has played a total of five complete games this season and that's all he'll play this season. Out of 34 games in his two combined seasons in Cleveland, he will have played in a total of 11 out of 34 games. Unless of course you want to count the Indy game. And if you wish to, by all means do. While you're certainly correct that watson's injury isn't the Browns fault, it is always a part of the equation. The return on investment in the watson deal has been terrible. Nobody can see into the future. This may turn out well. While you may not like hearing that, that is what the fats actually are.

And I know, I know, none of us can see into the future. But things like report cards and annual employee reviews exist for a reason. To show you where you are in the process. And that's where the Browns are with watson.

The debacle the Browns are left in at the QB position lies squarely on the shoulders of this FO which had no legitimate backup plan in place in case of such an injury. This FO has done some great things and made some great moves. But where they currently stand at the QB poisiton after the watson injury isn't one of them.

I'm not sure how the other team doing well is a failure on your team. Going to have to explain that one a little bit more for me to pay cash for it.

Also, does DW not have 3 more years on his contract? What if he win the SB in the 5th year for the Browns. Does that not matter? Is it still a failure at that point? Can you wait for events to happen before making grand pronouncements? These are life's big questions.

It will matter if and when it happens. You must not like report cards and annual employee evaluation reports. We can't see into the future. What we can do is look at where we are now.

I agree. His post suggests since Houston hit on the QB that they are winning the trade. The problem with that premise is that Houston did not get CJ Stroud from any picks they got for Watson. They were a bad football team last year and earned the #2 overall pick and hit on CJ Stroud. That had nothing to do with the Watson trade.

CJ Stroud was not the number 1 pick we gave up for Watson.

No offense to anyone but I no longer care about the trade, DW’s injury, the curse or anything. DTR is our QB this week and he better play like an NFL quarterback.

If DTR falls flat on his face this week, Berry will pull off something to get a vet.

Tannehill should be available soon.

Well in a division and season when every game matters - waiting for DTR to fail and then doing something about it would be potentially disasterous. Even if it's just to get someone in and learning the playbook and being the backup and demoting Walker to the PS, I can't see the downside in signing someone now.

Can't agree more, people can't let go

Move on next man up

There are things we have no control over, you can talk about the past and rehash it over and over

But nothing will change

Best thing to do is accept it and support it

The Browns are playing good football and have a chance at a play-off spot

One game at a time, time to beat the Steelers

Get back with us after the 2026 season to see how the Watson trade is working out. You may be right or you may be wrong.

Now if you want to throw out stats from half of a injury filled season why not throw out his stats so far in his career?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/3122840/deshaun-watson

Just a minute here, you have the nerve to use the excuse of injury when the player he replaced was injured but received "no excuse" for that injury effecting his play? The guy he replaced didn't have anything close to the #1 defense that Watson has as support either.

It's also bogus now to throw out BS like check his stats from 3 years ago on a different team. The guy has played 11 games in the last 3-years. It's time to quit living in the past and question what he's done for the Browns and the 230M guaranteed contract he's sitting on.

Even if you give Watson the benefit of the doubt and hand him an undeserved Indy win, in 12 games played, Watson only has 2 wins against teams with a record above .500 when they played - [Bal in 2022 with their backup QB playing and now BAL in 2023].

Those 12 games played compared to the previous QB's 14 games played in 2021 show Watson significantly poorer in QB performance in 90% or more of the QB rating categories. Remember, Watson was traded for because it was determined that the Browns had zero chance of ever reaching the Super Bowl without an elite top 5 QB. As of today, 2-years into that elite QB contract, Watson has failed to show that he can put a consistent performance on the field that's any better than the player he replaced statistically.

It should also be noted that in those 12 games played by the Browns elite top 5 QB, he doesn't have a single game where he's passed for over 300 yards. If fact, statistically, 6 of those 12 games played - Watson didn't throw for over 200 yards. That's right, the elite top 5 QB being paid 230M guaranteed didn't throw for at least 200 yards in 50% of the games he has played against 10 teams that had records no better than .500 at the time.

You nor I have a crystal ball that can tell what the next 3-years of Watsons contract with the Browns will bring. What I do know as of now is that Watson has performed poorer than the previous QB, that he will be entering his 4th season since he played as an elite level top 5 QB statistically, and that unless restructured again - will be the highest cap charge QB in the NFL in 2024 @ 63.977M.

We have Watson for the next 3-years and maybe he'll turn it around (we really don't know). However, as each season passes, the heat will get greater each season the Browns miss the Super Bowl (the sole reason he was brought here). As of today, the first 92M paid has been a total failure.

Well, one way to look at it is it’s not $230 million anymore. After this year it’s only $138 million. 👍😀

Hard to argue against the facts!

We all need to keep a semblance of humor Steve. 😜

Can't let go? Yeah, the guy is gone and hasn't been here for years now. When will the fans let it go?

I do find it somewhat comforting how his play was trending most recently. I don't get why it took so long to get him on the path to improvement, but there's a lot I don't understand about the game of football, I guess....

Right after they finally admit that Couch is, and always was, better than Holcomb.

What I have is the nerve to point out you have no clue how that trade is going to turn out. Hell you even admitted that in your response.

BTW those stats are not BS they are facts.

It's also true he has only played in a total of 11 games in the past three years. And you're certainly right that nobody can predict the future. It's also true nobody van refute how the first 40% of his contract with the Browns has turned out. 40% down with 60% to go.

The first 40 turned out like sheet lol

He has shown the ability to be a good QB. All we can do is hope the remaining 60% look more like that than the first 40%.

When going into any negotiation, one of the most common ways people derail themselves is comparing the deal they’re getting to the one their negotiating partner is getting. Stopping yourself from making a trade because it might work out better for your partner is one of the most classic ways to shoot your own foot. You have to isolate your own interests, your internal trade offs, you own IRR so to speak, and not focus on the other guy’s get. The only 2 caveats to this are 1: you realistically think that you could get more in the initial trade, which I don’t suspect we could have really (but I don’t really know and neither do you) and 2: you are giving an undue, relatively riskless advantage over you to a direct competitor.

Have we as of yet gotten good value compared to what we gave up? Of course not. But to anguish over the relative bounty, currently realized or not, of the Texans is a pointless self-misery exercise. The media loves to set things up this way, it’s mentally easy, but you can’t operate a business that requires constant measured risk taking this way. Sometimes you gamble big, most times small, but if you’re a pro sports team with needs in the form of ever so human capital, gamble you must.

I will also point out.. how many times did we “fleece” other teams in various drafts, letting them take one good player while we moved down, stocked up on a bounty of draft picks only to realize 3-5yrs later it didn’t net us a whole lot, no matter how good the player taken by the other team ended up being. The Texans are doing good things and maybe the deal they made will pan out spectacularly to their benefit. That they landed on a QB is basically a lotto strike, good for them but it neither reflects their superior draft skills nor our negotiating inadequacies.

Last thing, outside of academics, zero is rarely the true final sum in any trade.