DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The bigger picture..

We win and lose as a team but questions must be asked why we so grossly underperform when it matters most? It’s not only Flacco’s fault or our defensive unit but it’s almost the whole team including all coaches who come up short when the whole world is watching. We have been unlucky with injuries but that doesn’t explain why almost the whole team choke under pressure.

Is it decades of bad results that creates a weak winning culture?

Have we traded and drafted snowflakes?

Stefanski has to take some of the blame. He’s the HC and the bucks stops with him. Berry has so far created miracles but when the play offs started the results wasn’t there. That’s hard to walk around when we assess our FO.

Is losing by such a big margin only bad luck or is it more in it?

Bad luck? Really? The Browns had a good year but flopped in the playoffs. Rookie QB and a Rookie HC outplayed and out coached our team, Simple as that! Heck, the Texans were 2 feet away from dropping 50 on our vaulted team and defense. I'm not so sure that Haslam having the highest spend over the last 3 years expected a ROI of a first round wildcard loss but who knows? Guess it's time for Berry to go out and try to buy the parts needed for next year now. It was exciting while it lasted. Still chasing that 2020 record though.

Did you two coordinate this thread ahead of time?

Sometimes, you just have to know that there are people who don’t know, and don’t know that they don’t know.

Reminder that their is no guarantees that the Browns
Can reach the playoffs next year. The AFC North
Had 4 teams over .500 in 2023.

I'm not disappointed in the season, just today's result

Looking ahead, we have a difficult division, in a difficult conference and a difficult schedule next season

Lots of questions with our QB remain

Oh goodie, all the crybaby Browns "fans" in one thread. Maybe we can keep it isolated, although ten pages will never be enough.

It's a painful reminder that any team in any division with any number of injuries (their own or their opponents) can win any year with any number of new players via FA or the draft.

Thank you. Thank you for the reminder.

Good experience going into next year and we will have out QB1 back.

I think smartest thing this team can do is NOT adopt the loser “why us” cursed attitude, and just put down their heads and get to work on next year. No firings, no big rearrangements, learn from what went wrong today and shore up.

There’s more good on this team than there has been since the early 90’s. Is it enough? Clearly not. There’s work to be done on the roster and lessons to learned from the experiences.

But buying into”bad luck” and woe is me cursed garbage is the way you stay a loser. I still believe in the GM and coaching. I believe in the players and that health was critically not on our side this year. Is what it is. Buck up and come back stronger next year.

Go browns.

But, he'll be 'rusty', yet again. In year 3 of his contract, still 'rusty'. Coming off a season ending injury.

In the last 4 years he's played, what? 12 games? he's probably forgotten how to play football. One thing I'm sure he can do is endorse checks.

It's up to him to prove he can play. Period. The end.

Watson is done, he will never be what he once was and we have sold the farm believing that myth.

I’m not willing to wash my hands yet. Next year will be critical for him obviously. But if we can keep him healthy, we don’t know what’s possible

Their is no guarantees? I'm trying to determine which is the bigger failure here, post content or grammar.

We simply ran out of players.

But never out of excuses .

Facts are not excuses.

Our defensive made their worst game of the season and none, except JOK and Hunt, stepped up and showed any kind of attitude and determination.
Flacco made two turnovers and in general just looked shy. Apart from Njuko, a limping Cooper and Hunt we looked tired and out of ideas.

We where simply out coached for nearly 75% of the game by a rookie HC. Browns offense only produced 14 points. Our run game was poor. Our only decent period of the game was in our first couple of drives and after that we produced zero points in 40 minutes in a play off game.
That's a huge failure no matter how you paint it.

I ask these questions because there's more than just lack of talent. That's obvious and those who can't see that don't understand the importance of attitude, preparation and creating a winning culture. Tonight we saw none of these things that separate a talented team from a winning team.

We can't continue to give excuses whenever we fall flat to the ground. An organization, a GM and HC with ambitions must ask themselves questions.

Why did we look so unprepared?
Why did most of our key players underperform?
Why where we out coached by a rookie HC?

Watson is next season on his third year and so far absolutely zero success. Injured. A bunch of bad games and only one major win when we can say he was worth 230M. That's a huge failure. Look at Houston. Rookie QB who looked like a seasoned veteran. A rookie HC who had his players preperaed and with the right attitude. No excuses.

Stefanski and Berry deserves another season but if we don't do better next year in January 2025 it's time for heads to roll.

Excellent reply! Detailed and razor sharpe. With contributions like that there's no need for more. Another failed season. More excuses and more of

The Bigger Picture?

The Bigger Picture is that the Browns had a phenomenal season. Best RB in the game Out week 2(maybe McCaffrey owns that title right now after this season). 4 QB's and a 39 year old off his sofa at home steps in to lead the team to the playoffs and a 4-1 regular season record to clinch playoff football. Injuries literally everywhere. So bigger picture this season is 100% to be celebrated.

I mean if you want to rename the thread 'knee jerk overreactions' - sure. Let's all sit at our keyboards and piss and moan. But you'll need to ask the moderators to change the title of the thread.

Everyone is bitterly disappointed - but if you can't sit back and savor the ride that this team took you on this year, maybe you need to consider it is what you are expecting and if it's realistic. If you class this as a failed season I think that's a you thing not a Cleveland Browns thing.

Bigger Picture? I have had doubts about Stefanski and his coaching and play calling for multiple years. This year I feel like he mostly put those fears to bed. A comment by Rish in the Post Game thread is warranted - maybe Stefanski is like Baker, over performs when there are low expectations and underperforms when the expectations are high. Maybe. And he's maybe he's going to get too cute now and again based on history. Maybe he'll continue to get pass happy in some games. But I don't think you can say one way or the other based on 2 4th and 5th string OT's getting owned by healthy and good DE's - in one game. An aging Hunt who everyone agreed had lost 2 steps being our best RB. Cooper clearly hurt. What I can tell you that based on an entire season littered with obstacles that changed on a weekly basis - Stefanski does a LOT of things well and he deserves to be the HC and get an extension.

2024 -- Questions at QB, WR, RB, OL. Sure. But Bigger Picture is that none of those questions can be answered till next year and I really doubt anyone has anything new to opine on Watson who hasn't started for about 9 or 10 games.

Time to find out how bad Myles is now?

Re: best defense.

The Browns defense was middle of the pack based upon points given up. The Ravens gave up the fewest.

Yards per game is not as important as points given up and points given up in critical situations.

Let me ask you a friendly question mgh88?

How much success has the Browns had in the last 20 seasons?

It's a rhetorical question but you understand my point and that's at some point in all these years the talk about unluck goes out of the window after such a long time. Luck isn't always random, it's something you earn by hard work and excellent preparation. If the organization want to improve the outcome of their efforts they need to ask themselves why the end result isn't good enough.

Our regular season was a success from a historical standpoint but was it a success based on the talent we have in our team? I say we met expectations and ended where we should end with so much talent on our roster. With or without injuries.

Watson get injured could be labeled as "bad luck" but when you pay a QB with a questionable history a fortune then our FO probably should prepare for the unexpected and ask themselves if this is acceptable. A QB who in three seasons don't finish more than 50% of all games is bad business and poor planning. It's part of the failure not winning a play off game. No other way around this. Do you disagree?

I perfectly understand your view but I'm not satisfied with mediocrity and "bad luck". I think with better management we can do it better. You can call it knee jerk or whatever if you like but our overal results in the last 20 years is one of the worst, if not the worst, in the whole NFL. Why is that I ask you kindly?

I agree Stefanski deserves to be the head coach, but I would hold off on any extensions at the moment. I have generally leaned toward giving him one based on this season, and I still do…I think his body of work with a heavy emphasis on this season has earned it, but I just wouldn’t be in a rush to do it. Might even let him coach out next year before doing anything. If the season is going well, maybe you extend him mid season. You don’t really run the risk of losing him. There’s no other teams that are going to be watching how it unfolds ready to pounce on him as their head coach. If I were Haslam, Depo, and Berry, I would not do anything until next season.

Of course we will hear about an extension in a couple of weeks.

The Browns D had this really weird thing go on this year.

I don’t think any offense in the history of the league hung their defense out to dry more than the Browns. It seemed every single one of the league leading turnovers happened deep in our own territory. And the defense, which was good, would always concede a td. Like they could never just hold them to a fg. But if a team had to go the length of the field on our d, they couldn’t move the ball at all. It was so weird. But those turnovers really skewed the points given up.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-red-zone-scoring-pct

If I am reading the link correctly the Browns were dead last in red zone TD defense this season. Of course the skew that you mentioned plays a role but still that was bad.

I didn't talk about luck. I talked about the Browns over achieving based on our QB being picked up off the street. Our best RB in the wldcard game being picked up off the street and the OT's being 4th and 5th stringers.

For me the body of work that consisted of 16 games outweighs the single wildcard game as representative of what I will focus on and take away from the season. If I had a time machine and the influence to undo the DW trade? Sure I would - I think based on what we've seen the overwhelming majority of fans would, to date it's been a poor return. But to me that's not 'big picture' that's rehashing something that's been discussed a lot and I don't see any new material to add to the opinions already shared. jmo

I should add - that the last 20 years has nothing to do with Berry and Stefanski and what we saw vs Houston. And again - to explain my outlook - realistic expectations have to form part of the analysis of the team and the HC etc. there's 32 teams ... 31 of them are destined to "fail" based on winning the Superbowl being the goal. Based on the injuries we had, the personnel we were able to start, what was a reasonable expectation? To win the division? To reach the AFC Championship game? I think not. In fact I'd be interested to hear anyone make a case for expecting the Browns to reach the AFC championship game. And if that isn't a realistic expectation - then maybe reaching the 2nd week of the playoffs **might** be reasonable? I don't actually believe that can be said to be expected with a 39 year old, off the street QB, Hunt, a banged up Cooper and David Bell and all the other injuries ... so where did we fail? I'd suggest that many people are more upset about the manner in which we lost than the losing ... to me that's a gut punch but not 'big picture'

They mentioned this stat last night. They also mentioned that playing man predominantly might be an explanation ... but I also think the short fields that the D faced a lot might be a factor idk. I'd be interested to know how many times opponents started drives inside the 20 ... should it matter? Maybe not - but it might be something?

Another interesting tidbit about the Browns vaunted defense was it was dead last in the NFL in "Red Zone Defense." NFL Team Opponent Red Zone Scoring Percentage (TD only) was 71.11% in 2023 and ranked 32nd while last year, 2022, the Browns defense was ranked 15th at 55.17%. In fact, 2023 was the worst "Red Zone Defense" the Browns have had since Stefanski's arrival in 2020.

Number 1 ranked "Yards Per Game" was touted all year but given the results, if the opponent got in the Red Zone, you could bank on an opponent TD score in 2023.

2023 AFC North "Red Zone Defense"
Ranked #2 Baltimore 40.82%
Ranked #5 Pittsburgh 46.00%
Ranked #11 Cincinnati 51.67%
Ranked #32 Cleveland 71.11%

Overall it was a year to be proud of.... we had 5 different QBs start a game this year, lost the best RB in the league, best guard in the league, had a patchwork OL and still won 11 games and made the playoffs...

not sure how it all went wrong yesterday, but overall we had a season to be proud of...

with that said, I personally am concerned with all the injuries... I know injuries happen, but is there something we could be doing better to prevent them? Better equipment? better strength/conditioning? better recovery? I dunno.....

I'm hoping we can take the momentum of the season, get healthy, and make a push in 2024... wish we had a few more 1st and 2nd day draft picks... so berry needs to do a great job with what he has...

This right here. If anyone did not see the culture change, the "never quit" attitude from top to bottom despite all of the adversity we faced, they are blind as a bat. We are deep in talent on the field, on the sidelines and in the FO. If we can stay reasonably healthy, we'll be contending for a Super Bowl next year.

Next seasons schedule is brutal too. 12 of the Browns 17 games are against teams with winning records this year. 8 of the games are against 2023 playoff teams. The biggie is the Browns have 9 road games next year compared to only 8 in 2023. 3-5 on the road in 2023 with a playoff loss on the road added does not fare well for the Browns in 2024.

Next year's schedule:

Away - Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Philadelphia, Washington, Denver, Las Vegas, Jacksonville, New Orleans
Home - Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Dallas, NY Giants, Kansas City, LA Chargers, Miami

The bigger picture I see, is that the Browns saw the same fate Baltimore did last year. Injuries put a hurting on this team. Those bashing coaching have no clue, IMO. We got lucky winning with back ups, and when the playoffs start, you need your best.
The future looks bright in my eyes. There are some moves that need made for sure, but the coaching staff shouldn't be touched. If I'm Berry, I go after some play makers at the WR position. I also look to draft or sign some OTs.
One thing I would do, is move off of Ford. The guy has no vision and only makes plays when he has room to run. I also would look to replace Walker at LB. While he is a good leader and a smart player, he is never on the field. They need a thumper to play along side of JOK.
As for QB, I don't know what to think. Watson was returning to form, and then out with injury. They could keep Flacco as the back up, but I think that would just cause a split in the locker room.
This team has been mostly home grown players, I see the young guys on the roster improving with the experience they got this season. Most of the back up players now have plenty game experience, time to add some starting caliber players to that mix.
As for next years schedule, I don't think you can ever judge who is going to be the same year to year. Many of the teams that were looked at as easy wins this year, had surprising seasons . Look at the Texans.

I, for once can be proud of what this team accomplished with all the setbacks they had. Looking to the future, I don't think the Browns will be looked at the way they have been for the last 20+ years. The culture has changed, and the expectations have been raised. Time to build upon the success of this year.

Brady use to say the season starts in November and ends when the SB is over. That’s an unrealistic way of approach for at least 30 teams but the bottom line is that your last game will probably define most of your season. I partly agree with that.

Look at Miami at Arrowhead. Freezing cold and extremely unpleasant weather. The Dolphins hasn’t been built to win in winter conditions. Is that wise?

The Browns problem is that we don’t excel in the red zone and that we’re not consistent enough. That goes for both our star players and our coaches.

Stefanski is good enough to continue at least one more season but his record when it matters is still poor, that’s concerning. Andrew Berry has done magic with our roster but signing that 230M deal is till hurting us enormously. That’s also on his CV.

Give Kevin a 1 year extension and go back to the drawing board and see what we can do with Watson. Right now he’s by far our biggest problem.

I agree there was a culture change this season. The attitude of the team changed for the better. Houston was the better team yesterday and put a beating on us no excuses here but I honestly believe part of it was that the injuries caught up with us. It had to happen eventually. Even some of the guys playing yesterday weren’t 100%. Between FA and the draft we should be able to strengthen our weak areas and add some depth. If we can stay relatively healthy next year we can duplicate this season’s record. JMO

However, the Browns defense allowed the fewest Red Zone attempts in the NFL with only 42, 30 of which resulted in a TD which is about the middle of the pack for TDs allowed in the Red Zone. The Browns were a NFL best in only allowing 24.8% of their opponents drives to end in a score.

The Browns were a NFL best in holding opponents to a 29.1% conversion rate on 3rd downs and an NFL best in holding opponents to a 40% conversion rate on 4th downs.

As Rish mentioned, offensive turnovers, which the Browns led the NFL in with 37, were a significant contributing factor.

The Browns defense had the second best total team defense EPA with 90.4. The best was Baltimore with 107.53

On the other hand, the Browns had the fifth worst total team offense EPA with an abysmal -110.55. Only the Giants, Panthers, Patriots and Jets were worse. The 49ers were a league best at +231.8 EPA. Baltimore was 130.64. Cincinnati had a 41.33 offensive EPA and Pittsburgh had a -14.35 offensive EPA.

That's what they said about Covid.