DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The bigger picture..

True. But this move was an all-in, all-or-nothing proposition. If it doesn't work, the guaranteed money is not the problem, the problem is letting the window close without a championship... and the solution will be ripping things apart and starting over.

Not diminishing the weight of the all-in decision on Watson, just relaying the fact that the guaranteed money is the least of the worries when (if) it fails.

I was replying to a poster who was speaking about guaranteed money verses non guaranteed money. So I kept my comments restricted to that topic. I very much agree with you that the results of watson's performance over the terms of his contract will determine the jobs of a lot of people in the management department as well as the coaching staff. And they will be at the top. That's why it's my hope this all works out.

I've always looked at the business decisions in the NFL like any other business and their decisions are based exactly like every other major corporation in the regard. ROI is always the bottom line. And if they strike out on this one they will have struck out big time. I have no way of knowing how it will all work out. There's three years left on his contract to see how this all shakes out.

Oh, I know, it was just easier to continue your thought process than look for someone to quote and argue with lol.

We're on the same page. 👊

Very good question and you’re probably right.

The Browns have one of the most loyal fan bases I have ever seen. Patience. Acceptance. Positive. Grateful. Loyal.

Any GM with some sort of strategic perspective knows that if they just feed their fan base with a little bit of positivity most supporters will get onboard again after a disappointing playoff loss. A Boom-Bust cycle that most organizations have to deal with.

Andrew Berry is still relatively young as a GM and probably doesn't have the experience and the long term strategic communication skills to look 3-4 seasons ahead. Not because he doesn't have the talent or intelligence but just because of his age. Younger people mostly sees the future differently. Fear of not being successful, fear of losing their job if his organization doesn't progress is often part of the reason why their perspective can be a little bit different.

If the Browns would like to take the next step, as this season has shown, they need luck with injuries, luck with FA, luck with referee's and maybe a more matured culture. We don't have a bad culture, but our winning culture is nowhere near the best teams, because we don't had their success yet. That goes for the whole organization including the fan base.

To get to an elite level of winning culture we need a at least some inside the FO, players or coaches who have done it, been part of a culture that have turned impossible match situations into touchdowns, who have won against all odds and knows what it takes to turn around a game with both spectators, the referee and bad luck against them. That's different from talking about being inclusive, nice, respectful or whatever that sounds good and a little bit woke. Berry’s story about his view of a better culture is good and all that but it’s not what win Super Bowls

Rightfully most the Browns are satisfied with an 11-6 season. We didn't go all the way but we over performed despite injuries so the season will by many be labeled as a success.

An organization like KCC, for example, don't think and feel like that. Their 11-6 season is seen as acceptable or good at best. Their end goal is the SB so until they reach that goal their season is not a huge success.

This is also why our organizations are planning the season differently. When the Browns is practicing what the right scheme is then Andy Reid, Mahomes & Co is practicing their final drive if they are behind when a couple of minutes left in the SB. Their HC is planning for plan A, B and C, if some key players are missing, and what to do if the unexpected happens.

That's the difference between long term thinking, long term planning, long term implementation and knowing the winning culture is already inside their walls.

What Berry has to do to take the next step is to lower the expectations already before the season starts so he can avoid all hype and unrealistic dreams. He needs to stop patting himself on the back and tell everyone how good everything is. Typical for some of the younger upcoming generation who's using social media/interviews as a platform to show off and paint themselves more colorful and successful than the reality is.

I get why, I have children and grandchildren, and nothing wrong with it as long as you use it the right way, but when you're the top dog of a historically underperforming organization it's better to let results do the talking and if it possible damper the expectations by not patting ourselves on the back for every little positive step we take.

Wait until we win something before raise the flag to the top.

I'm old-school so I perfectly understand that there're different views about this, but as long as we have no titles, talk is cheap.

That's right, you haven't been around that long have you? Browns fans can't even support the staring QB if he doesn't play lights out. They'll be creaming for the backup at the first signs of a struggle. No matter how many times the FO or coaching staff says the starter is the better QB Browns fans don't listen. That experience over decades is why we know that your belief that the fan base will have tempered expectations based on what the team tells them falls flat.

Just look at this season. Should anyone need to tell the fan base that with four starting QB's, no Chubb, playing the 4th and 5th OT's on the depth chart along with a myriad of other injuries that they should temper their expectations? No they shouldn't. And look at the responses when people do. They call everything that is factual and reasonable as excuses. It wouldn't make any difference where that message came from.

Exactly! If year 3 goes bad for the Browns with Watson, they have no way out of the deal. Right now, they owe Watson 138M cash payment for the next 3 years no matter what. The bigger issue is right now though is the Browns still have to account for $201,547,500 against the cap during the same period because they deferred season 1 and season 2. No matter what, the fully guaranteed contract means the Browns will have to account cash payments and for the contract to the cap now and in the future.

Jackson on the other hand has $14,250,000 left on his deal in guaranteed money that ends after 2024. The Ravens deferred some of the cost too, but the difference is none of his salary is guaranteed going forward after 2024. That means the Ravens could let Jackson go in 2025 (injury, poor play, whatever) and owe him zero dollars in cash salary but would still be held accountable to the cap for the $80,450,000 in deferred costs they have used to date.

Burrows has 2 years left of guaranteed money equaling $35,964,000 total. The Bengals deferred some of the cost too, but the difference is none of his salary in guaranteed after 2025 so there is no required cash payments after that. That means the Bengals could let Burrows go in 2026 (injury, poor play, whatever) and owe him zero dollars in cash salary due to no guarantees. They would still be held accountable to the cap for the $57,000,000 in deferred costs that have used to date.

With Jackson and Burrows, the have contracts running way past the guaranteed years. The difference between them and Watson is the team could move on any year after that due to no guarantees and just owe the prorated bonus money. Watson gets paid whether he's there or not and the team still has to account for the prorated bonus money.

Jackson's contract runs through 2027 and Burrows through 2029.

And on the flip side if watson is doing great by the end of year three with the price of QB's continuing to rise it won't look like watson cost them that much. There are pros and cons in both directions but on a personal note from a purely business aspect I prefer as much non guaranteed money on a players contract which certainly give a team much more flexibility.

Looking at contracts overall:

Jackson: 5 Yrs/$260 Million; Signing Bonus: $72.5 Million; Average: $52 Million; Guaranteed at signing: $135 Million; Total Guaranteed: $185 Million.

Watson: 5 Yrs/$230 Million; Signing Bonus: $44.965 Million; Avreage: $46 Million; Guaranteed at signing: $230 Million; Total Guaranteed: $230 Million.

What is different? Total Guaranteed is $95 million. But, the signing bonus difference is $27.535 Million.

Cleveland's out-of-pocket above Jackson's contract is $67.465 Million or $13.493 Million per year.

You and I talk about different things and we look at it from two different perspectives, so the dialogue between us is more about promoting our own opinions.

I actually agree with you if I look at it from your perspective but my view isn’t about if your expectations, fair or not, it’s more about how our FO communicate and how to build and implement a culture that increase our chances to overcome challenges and unexpected obstacles.

This’s a subject where there’s no 100% right or wrong, only different angles how to build a successful culture.

It is not "my opinion" as how browns fans react. It's my experience of being a Browns fan almost my entire life. It's a first hand account of how they react to things. Trying to present what the vast majority of fans will consider nothing more than excuses is not a way to build a successful culture. Quite the contrary in fact.

The thing is Pit and few others are talking either from experience of the team or situations regarding the team. You are talking through assumptions or some made up ideas. One example is the differences between KC and the Browns.

And with all due respect, you've said a few times you are "old school". In most of the world, this isn't how it works anymore. Things change constantly.

Once again we talk about two different things. Forget about being on the same page, we don’t even reading the same book.
Like I said I actually agree with you on your take but that’s not what I’m trying to make a point about.

From one ClusterF**k to another.

I just saw stats about NFL organizations record of drafting players from 2012 - today.

Worst is the Jets and second worst, …. surprise…. is the Cleveland Browns.

They were by far the two worst when it comes to getting value out of their drafts. My point with mentioning these stats is because I think there’s a correlation between questionable leadership and bad decision making which leads me to the conclusion that’s probably no coincidence that it was the Browns who gave a a highly questionable character a historically unheard contract of 230M guaranteed money.

The tradition of taking high risk gambles without enough due diligence is often deep rooted in a historically underachieving organization despite nchanging personnel and trying to implement a higher level of competence in their leadership. Basically it’s hard for anyone to move on from bad habits, that goes for companies too and especially when it comes to middle size and bigger organizations/companies. The more employees the harder it gets.

With that said I believe that the Browns are on the right path but there’s no doubt that costly mistakes still has been taken despite the Browns probably has their most qualified leadership in many years.

Well results seems to support my view maybe a little bit more then yours.
From what I can see with my “made up ideas” then KCC has won the SB two times in the last couple years and on Sunday they play the conference final.

Maybe I have misunderstood something but tell me, you labeled all the other things so elegantly, what’s the Browns results the last 20 years?

If worse than the average NFL team then why?

Is it because of excellent leadership or do you honestly advocating that an organization has been unlucky two decades? I looking forward to here more insults and patronizing comments.
Do what you do best. It’s entertaining.

I am only going to comment on this part, the KC thing...have at it.

..."what's the Browns results the last 20 years?"

Let me take a personal experience and try my best to keep it straight to the point.

When I first arrived to my current assignment, our current staff all arrived at the same time. For the first 5 or so months, all we heard from the lower Units and from higher was the former leadership was toxic, selfish, lazy, and didn't take care of Soldiers. So out of the gate their first impression = we suck. It was to the point of Soldiers "assuming" if something wasn't right then they would file a complaint due to labeling us the same as the previous groups. It literally took us over a year to get Units and lower level leaders to understand we were not the previous leaders/staff. We do things together as an organization and conduct business in a professional manner. Once they started understanding and seeing the results, things started to take off from there in a good way.

What's my point? "result of the last 20 years"
All the previous staffs of the past 20 years have nothing to do with Andrew Berry and his staff. They weren't family, they weren't brought up in the same environment as the previous staffs, etc. They are their own entity with their own personal upbringings, morals, and beliefs. Only a portion of them have one thing in common and that is the owners; however even the owners philosophy changed (or you can say adjusted) in the past couple years.

What I am getting at: the results of the past 20 years are meaningless in terms to this current FO/staff and team. Berry and his staff should not be labeled and grouped into that lump of garbage, just like myself and my staff should not be lumped into the previous garbage.


As for your worse than average team comment....with this current FO (b/c that is what matters), I would classify making the playoffs 2 out of 4 years better than your "average team".

You're not the first and probably not the last with such a view and I fully understand your reasoning behind it, and much of what you say can be correct, but unfortunately it's more complicated than just changing a few parts of the thought process, who later leads to better quality of decision makings, to fully change the culture of a organization.

When assessing our results and comparing it to the other 31 NFL organizations a span of 20 years gives a better view of the quality of our decision making.

You mention " I would classify making the playoffs 2 out of 4 years better than your "average team" as an indicator of the improved quality of the decision making process and that is partly correct but it's not including the decisions and draft before the change of leadership, who has a strong correlation to the quality of our roster and the results in these 4 seasons. (you mention as a prove for our improvements)

Look at our roster 2023 and how many of our players that was drafted before 2020. On the top of my head I can mention Garrett, Ward, Chubb, Njoku, Teller, Takitaki and Bitonio, nearly all of them can be described as part of the backbone of our team. So your classification that only changing our leadership is the only, or the major part, of the improvement is a little bit flawed. It's a combination but clearly the change of leadership at the top has helped us being better, but I think nobody is fully denying that.

Another important part is the implications of giving away multiple draft picks over a span of 3 seasons. We overpaid to an extend that hurt the team for a player who has only participated in 12 games over 2 seasons. His high guaranteed salary is also affecting the quality of our roster in the long run. What would the result have been with all these draft picks and having more space in our salary cap? Because we don't know this it's hard to evaluate everything as a total success, maybe keeping those draft picks and all the money could have give us a better outcome?

These are also important factors that have influence to our results and how we valuate Berry's time as a GM.

So it's factually incorrect to use the results of our latest 4 seasons as the only indicators if these changes in leadership has been that success you're trying to make as a prove of our improvement.

Just to be clear, you could be right, but at the moment we don't fully know that yet. Too many variables outside his control. We have to wait a couple of seasons before we can evaluate how much of an improvement it has been with Berry at the wheel.

So in other words, anything to disparage Berry and the job he has done.

Half the people on this board could have done better in those early drafts having been handed the biggest sack of gold in NFL history.


This seems like an awful lot of typing to just say Berry sucks, the Browns suck, they will never win anything and their fans are gullible. Which has been the basic theme of your last 10,000 words.

Newsflash: I never opined about 'the success or lack of success of the watson deal after two years of a five year contract'. That's why I didn't bring that up. I stated that the org needs to do a better job at evaluating QBs...with an S. Then I backed up my opinion - something you should try to do.

Why would my silly rant go on about something other than what YOU think is the topic at hand? Because that's how you roll...arguing a point that isn't being made.

Just so it's crystal (ball) clear for you:

I stated that the org needs to be better at evaluating QBs. You responded to that post about the success of a contract for ONE guy.

You stated that it's not fair to make a determination about Watson 2/5th into a contract...something I wasn't doing.

Then I talked about (6) other decisions made at QB in the past two years or so.

If only you would read what was actually posted rather than respond to what you THINK was posted.

So first you claimed I was accusing you of saying things you weren't saying and then you say them.

And BTW- 31 other teams left Joe Flacco on the couch too. That's why he was still on the couch when the FO called.

Jackson's numbers are greatly inflated by the insane salaries of $51M in years 4 & 5 that he will almost certainly not receive. His cap hit in those years is just shy of $75M. That isn't happening.
There are two void years on that deal, too, that prorate the deal over a longer time to keep the per year numbers down. Years 4 & 5 will force a restructure. They can designate him for a Post June 1 Release in 2026 and save $52M against their cap.

Joe might be okay with a back up role here, the other QBs are glass, so he would still start some games.

Flacco is not Nostradumbass. But then neither is anyone else on the board.

Not at all and that's why everyone who is too emotionally invested sometimes gets a little confused when evaluating our improvement, and that includes me too.

The more parts to include, the more complex it becomes. When we mention our GM by name it is because he is the face of our FO and sometimes he gets unfairly criticized without being involved, often depending on others in the thought process. A good example would be the later stages of the Watson trade, where I think our owner took command and let Berry clean the floor behind him.

I stand by my opinion that the Watson trade was a cluster of epic proportions. The downsides of this trade outweighed the potential upside. Only a SB appearance can change this.

IMO Berry has let himself down 3 times. Other than that, he has done most things well with only a few less impressive performances.

1. His immature handling of Mayfield. Instead of taking a long-term approach that includes a more strategic communication, he took the big boss approach and used his power to do whatever he wanted. It backfired when Watson initially rejected the Browns. Not only had he misjudged the situation, but he had also failed to secure a backup plan. That mistake cost the Browns unnecessary bad will and money.

2. That he approved a guaranteed money contract. He should have used his veto as a GM, and if he didn't have a veto, the owners probably didn't trust him 100%, and rejected that trade unless certain safeguards were met.

3. His first press conference with Watson. If he had any kind of backbone, he would have refused to be the face of this embarrassing introduction. If his choice was "take it or leave” then he should at least have the courage not to talk like a sleazy politician and more like a man of principles and the right values. That amateurish defending will always follow him among most neutrals.

Flo, with all due respect, it wasn't AB's handling of Baker. The problem it seems was in the locker room with some players and Baker's relationship with KS. As far as the press conference, AB was doing what he had to do as a good employee. Jimmy Haslam had to be the driving force behind the DW deal. It could never fly without his approval.

Haslam certainly had the final say because he writes the checks. So without him agreeing to the deal no deal would have been done. But claiming to know who was the driving force behind the idea and proposed deal is something none of us actually know.

Regarding Baker I’m talking about finding a route out for our number 1 pick and the Browns where both can save face. (there we can learn from Asia and especially Japan and China, the masters of this art of “mutual’ agreement’s)

Going behind the back of your most known draft pick, the face of a nation wide commercial, without even given him orhis agent a chance to arrange a “friendly” departure, Often typical for a new boss who’s not used to handling executive power against attitude or immature behaviors , like Mayfield, who had that chip on his shoulder that often let him down in certain private situations. In these cases experience is a huge advantage because with a long term communication approach you can use the situation to your advantage by being respectful and understanding without embarrassing or show lack of respect. In this case the end result was a disappointment and all involved looked dirty afterwards. Whatever the reason for the departure of Mayfield, it ended bad and probably cost the Browns unnecessary money.

(I have seen this over the years with many different managers in my own company, or later in my career when I have been a board member, where the board have recruited new GM’s, and some of them start they job, with using their power, commanding respect for the wrong reasons, but instead it often backfires with unnecessary drama and in some cases costly payoffs)

A “good’ employee can still do better than ending up with a media fiasco and sitting like a trained dog when the photo flashes hammering his face to the wall of shame. This’s why experience and maybe a professional mentor could have helped him. Why do you think he Haslams wasn’t on that podium? Maybe they could afford better and more expensive “consigliere’s” …

You seem to be taking great lengths in an attempt to accomplish attempting to make a point that most likely didn't even exist. You are making some wild assumption that the relationship was good between Baker and the Browns at that point in time. To the point they could sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya to reach this friendly agreement you speak of. You must first have some basis in fact with which to base the rest of your long winded post on. I don't believe you proposed the ground work required for that.

Yes, I just wish he’d tell us. Does Frodo get the ring in the end or no?

“It’s a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don’t keep your feet, there’s no knowing where you might be swept off to.”- The LOTR

After reading this thread, something similar should be the Dawgtalkers' disclaimer before posting for the first time.

We really need a HOF section somewhere here on DT.

This is some of the craziest [censored] I've ever read here.

And the dude that found the Browns on a Ouija board five years ago is gonna preach about how long-time fans are too emotionally invested.

Cannot make this stuff up!

Yea, don’t mind me. I’m a little emotional over here from Berry and Stefanski sucking because of Ray Farmer and Hue Jackson.

It’s all so confusing. For years I thought Nick Chubb was good. I forgot to factor in the past twenty years. Ben Gay, Terry Kirby…

Right. Don't you miss the days when our biggest beef with the FO was to get our kick returner paid? And then hope he didn't get a staph infection once the ink was dry?

Back then we didn't need people to explain to us how badly we sucked. Especially our own fans.

With comments like this is when lack of strategic thinking shines thru.

An experienced GM never let other's emotions stop him to get things done. Secondly from a legal standpoint Mayfield was still under contract with a guaranteed salary in 2022. Thirdly, no matter how bad the relationship was, it's his responsibility is to take care of personnel conflicts inside his domain, or whatever that can affect his organization negative.

Frankly, it's unprofessional to end up in a situation where a relationship is so bad that they can't even directly talk to each other. As a GM you just can't let that happen without fixing it before "the point of no return". It's your job taking care of problems, not creating irreparable decisions.
As soon as Berry understood that it was no way back, no matter who's at fault or the circumstances, he should have sat down with Baker and/or his agent and found a solution how to move forward, before they started their public negotiation with Watson.

Ending any communication before a mutual solution is reached is a failure when you' have the final say in a organization. No matter who's at fault or who started the conflict.
How is that so difficult to understand?

WTF is a general managers responsibility according to you? To enjoy the weather in Cleveland, eating donuts and drinking coffee...

Almost everything involving the Watson trade was handled reversed. First you finalize or find a solution for those contracts that's your organization's liability and is affected by this new deal. That include inform those involved and having a water tight back up solution if something goes wrong. What else. Take chances and hoping for the best..?

The fact is that initially Watsons camp rejected the Browns, before Berry had informed Mayfield. The "Tres Amigos" flew around half of America, and according to reports a half way trip to talk to Baker in their search for solutions, before ending up with giving away a monster contract totally out off proportion for someone who was at that time damaged goods.

Like i say. None of you defending this seems to know what a Happy Ending means.
Talk to Watson. He's the specialist. I give him that.
230M, guaranteed, for abusing women and let the Browns pay for his mistakes.

I bet he and his agent couldn't even believe their own eyes when seeing that contract.

I can agree in principle. However, the rift didn't just happen the day before it was more or less on public display. You take the position that since you didn't hear anything about the sides talking you assume those talks never happened.

Based on everything else I have seen, I feel that both Stefanski and Berry were professional in their dealings and never brought it up to the media. Teams don't usually take their internal dealings to the media. They make it a point of saying they aren't going to share internal personnel matters and won't be discussed in public. I know you have heard comments like that. In years of watching situations similar to this, it is usually the player camp who start talking about internal matters.

I don't think the team started to do anything behind Bakers back. I think both he and the Browns front office knew things were headed towards the gutter with no chance of being salvaged.

Dude, the friction between the FO and Baker was already established. No GM can make someone work with them. Your supposition at its very core is a falsehood. The essays you post in response will not change the fact the very foundation of your fable is flawed.

Your essay is about 90% conspiracy theory and 10% crybaby Mayfield worshipping.

Mayfield QUIT before the plane landed back in Cleveland. QUIT. Wrote a letter saying 'goodbye'. No deal with Watson, no nothing, just the knowledge that they had met with him.

So, I guess the franchise had no right to even think about how the team should work going forward. A team with an injured QB who just spent a half-season dictating when he would or would not start. A QB that needed season-ending surgery weeks before, but instead said he was consulting with "his people" on a week-by-week basis to decide whether he would play or not. "He also said he would talk to his agents and family about sitting out the final week of the season."... after his COACH had already said he would not be starting.

Berry is immature? Stay away from the Magic Mushrooms, bro.

And, I guess we should also believe (since football is also involved, and not just your management conspiracy theories) that his FIVE failures in FIVE attempts at 4th quarter comebacks were also Berry's fault. (Maybe he was texting the plays to the sideline? Inside joke that you wouldn't understand, being a new Browns fan). Mayfield's 4 INTS to blow the game against the Packers pretty much sealed the fate on our season. But crybaby still insisted on starting against the Steelers when he should have been having his shoulder repaired to get ready for the following season.


So after all this, you're insisting Berry should have chased 'Mayfield's people' around the country and begged for a 'sit down'?

The sit down had already occurred. Months before the time you're framing as Berry's failure. The sit down let the QB know who runs the franchise and who is the employee... at the tail end of a tumultuous season.

To be objective in such an unusual drama like this is impossible but what we can be sure about is the end result.

I still hold on to my view that this could have been handled much much better from all involved. I leave it there, because in the end it’s history, but I hope and suspect that Andrew Berry was wise enough to reflect on his part and how he and his FO can do better in the future.

Who gives a Flying J how Berry handled that situation.

It did not impact anything. They wanted DW no matter what the situation was happening.. It did not impact getting FAs, it did not impact the locker room, the contract bs you bring up about overpaying…that’s who they wanted. You really think they met DW with only plan A? Do you really think their talks with the Texans was only plan A?

All these intelligent people in one room and they never thought of a backup plan if DW and/or the Texans reject their offer. That’s highly illogical.

I'm certainly interested in what you thought plan B was. As it turns out plan B ended up flying back out and opening the Brinks truck to watson and giving him whatever he wanted . Based on what we witnessed watson was both plan A and plan B.