DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Trump starts the Appeals process

Who was this judge and how does he know how Engoron would have ruled?

Is there a constitutional right to a jury trial in civil cases?

Constitutional Amendments – Amendment 7 – “The Right to Jury Trial in Civil Affairs” Amendment Seven to the Constitution was ratified on December 15, 1791. It protects the right for citizens to have a jury trial in federal courts with civil cases where the claim exceeds a certain dollar value.

“In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.”


I don't believe Engoron would have had a choice under the law if it had been requested within the proper time frame. I mean under the law.

Oh, interesting. Thanks. I did think it was bizarre to have a bench trial. Is his opinion published? I'd like to read it.

It may be. I actually have some work to do atm, I'll look later. The link I provided actually spells out a lot of the reasoning in his own words. Not a direct quote, but basically "it would be unfair and imprudent to ask a jury to calculate damages anyway, so why bother?"

Here is a quote from the article you posted. There are no quotes so it doesn't seem to be an engoron quote but intended as a factual statement:

In the ongoing New York fraud case, the state is seeking $250 million in disgorgement, a kind of equitable remedy that is a clawback of ill-gotten gains — the amount of benefit that the state says Trump and the co-defendants personally received from alleged fraud. Authorities cannot ask a jury to make that kind of calculation.

It seems that therer are 2 parts to the litigation.

Part 1: did the defendent commit fraud? It seems like this could have been a jury trial if requested

Part 2: once found guilty, there is a determination of damages which cannot be done by a jury.


This makes anything quoted confusing because it is never clear to which the quote is referring to.
This is my take

I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make here.

Here is my take. I have filled out numerous Personal Financial Statements for various loans, generally required when a bank requires a personal security to cover a business loan. (i.e. if the corporation defaults, they are coming after you personally to cover the debt). So bankruptcy is not an option. The individual signing on behalf of the corporation is personally at risk. You as the individual are co-signing for the corporate loan.

Let's just say I approached such applications and statements it with the intent to be totally accurate in the valuations provided.

I will say that the language contained in those default clauses is some of the most harsh that I have ever read. It is an eye opener for sure. It does not end there. Some loans require yearly updates and the bank can "call the loan" (demand full payment) if they don't like the updated information even if full payment has been made.

There is always a statement on these loan application forms that "false statements can result in loan denial and prosecution." On a SBA loan there is a specific reference to 18 U.S.C. 1001.

So it is a crime to provide a false statement on the application. And this is what got Trump cross with the NY AG and led to the charges. Trump overinflated or outright lied about the elements of his wealth (e.g. 31,000 sq. ft. apartment when it is in fact 11,000) and the valuations had no basis in reality (over inflated in multiples, not percentage) or comps were no where close. Trump attempted to "disclaim" the valuations on the loan applications, and you really can't do that. You are responsible for the accuracy of the statement, and the Trump disclaimer is total B.S.

Engoron reviews the financial statements and determines without jury involvement (summary judgement) that Trump committed the fraud and is found guilty (liable) in the civil proceeding. Again anyone with a reasonable understanding of the subject matter would have come to the same conclusion. Statements made were totally false to obtain preferred interest.

Now it would take someone with some skill to determine or estimate how much Trump actually benefited with the lower interest, and that wound up being 350 million or so, once the accountants got done with it. That probably can be disputed, but there is most likely a pretty solid back up from a real estate CPA with knowledge.

Trump has argued that this is a victimless crime as no one was harmed. While true, it is also irrelevant. The law exists to obtain accuracy in loan applications, otherwise most applications would be false and ultimately the system would crumble because everyone could lie without recourse. Hence the reason for the law in the first place.

You want a loan, you need to be truthful on the application. That is the rule/law that applies to everyone else and the rule/law that Trump ignored.

If you are found to be using false information to obtain a loan, can't they just call the note due immediately?

Just to clarify, summary judgment doesn't necessarily mean without jury involvement. Summary judgment is based upon a pre-trial motion where one side basically says "Looking at the entirety of the undisputable facts and legal arguments at issue, there is essentially no need to go to trial (either bench or jury) and the matter can be decided now." Oddly enough, it's not entirely uncommon for both sides to file motions for summary judgment.

Is that what happened to the fraud finding in this case? Was it based on summary judgment? I knew the trial was about damages, but I never knew the finding of liability for fraud was based on an MSJ (Motion for Summary Judgment).

Depends on the loan language, but yes that condition can exist.

Trump may be at risk on other loans due to the change in net worth.

It is my understanding that Engoron made a summary judgement without testimony from any of the parties.

That only happens when evidence is overwhelming.

Thought so. I do have doubts that any loan condition is ever written that allows for false claims however.

So let's recap. Court gives trump a deadline to post the bond. That deadline is today. Trump's lawyers go before the court and claim it's impossible for trump to raise those funds and can't cover the bond. Then trump publicly states he has the money to cover the bond but plans to use the money on his campaign. So now, according to trump's own words, his attorneys lied to the court about his ability to cover the bond and in fact trump told the court he could cover the bond but he refuses to. And as a final topper to all of this he claims he was planning to use the money for his campaign when in fact he has had two previous presidential campaigns and never used a dime of his own money to fund either one of them.

I think that about covers where we are at.

I’m pretty sure anyone else that did this would be sitting in a 8x8 cell by now.

Appeals court lowered trump's bond to 175 million and he has ten more days to pay it.

Bet he still has issues getting that. Bond companies usually cap out at 100mil. We’ll see.

I don't think he needs any help with 175

I have no idea. What we know so far is his lawyers told the court it was impossible for trump to raise the 454 million. Then trump said he had the money but wasn't going to pay the bond with it. This time? Who knows what the story will be or how many versions of it we're going to hear. I agree with you that he shouldn't need help with the 175 million. But God knows what he's going to say or do this go round.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24432595-trump-civil-trial-decision

FYI - here is the decision, I think at least. I will try to peruse through it later. It opens up with quite the bang.

Edit ~ yeesh, 92 pages...

I think that's just for Bond purposes so he can appeal! He still owes the whole 454 million if I'm not mistaken!

He should have no problem getting $175 million. After all, last friday on Truth Social he said he had almost $500 million.. So he should be able to write a check. Right?

If I was representing the state of new york, I would get a sworn testimony from the trump organization what the exact value of his properties were in the years that he supposedly committed fraud. Once we have sworn documentation of what he believes is the true and accurate value, I would come back the next day with "Judge, in light of the trump organizations sworn testimony, we would like to drop the fraud charge and submit this bill for delinquent taxes with interest."

Does he then say he committed perjery and admit committing fraud? Or does he pay the tax bill which I am sure would be exorbitant?
Then NY can say, we are not attacking him because of his politics. We are just demanding that he pay his taxes like every other patriotic american...

I'm not understanding how his opinion of the value of his properties would have anything to do with his tax situation.

His opinions were used to decrease property taxes on one hand and raise valuations for loans on the other hand. You can’t see the fraud? Blinded by the lies.

A few notable excerpts from the decision as I go along:

"In order to borrow more, and at lower rates, defendants submitted blatantly false financial data to the accountants, resulting in fraudulent financial statements."

(So in this point, even though loans may have been repaid, the interest rate at which they were lent turns into an issue).

"When confronted at trial with the statements, defendants' fact and expert witnesses simply denied reality, and defendants failed to accept responsibility or to impose internal controls to prevent future recurrences."

Ouch.

"Timely and total repayment of the loans does not extinguish the harm that false statements inflict upon the marketplace. Indeed, the common excuse that 'everybody does it' is all the more reason to strive for honesty and transparency and to be vigilant in enforcing the rules. Here, despite the false financial statements, it is undisputed that defendants have made all required payments on time; the next group of lenders to receive bogus statements might not be so lucky."

As was mentioned before, summary judgment was granted in September 2023, and this decision confirmed it.

The decision then goes through A LOT of individuals. This one was interesting:

"In a 2015 appraisal of 40 Wall Street, Larson included the value of a Dean & Deluca lease that yielded annual rent of $1.4 million and he applied a 4.25 percent cap rate, for a total value of $540 million. Notwithstanding, the 2015 SFC backup data double-counted the Dean & Deluca lease. McConney also included a much lower cap rate than the one on the appraisal and listed the total value of 40 Wall Street over $735 million, citing Larson as the source. Larson repeatedly confirmed that he was not a source for that number, that the number was nearly $200 million more than his own appraisal, and that he did not work for McConney or anyone else at the Trump Organization to determine the cap rate used to generate the $735 million value."

More to come.

His opinions decreased property taxes? His opinions + a magic wand, or did he drug and hypnotize the county assessor and auditor? I crossed out everything else that had nothing to do with the question I asked.

Trump reported one inflated value to the banks while at the same time reporting a significantly lower value on his taxes.
He either committed bank fraud or tax fraud.
Simple unless you are purposely trying to be obtuse

Technically both, because neither were true evaluations. And those evals were based on wildly inflated worth or very undervalued tax assessments. Had he paid taxes on what he claimed his holdings were worth on loans, he would have paid much more. Dude just gaming the system, basically lying his way to massive net worth. Conman from day one and an absolute trash individual.

On what planet do you pay taxes based on you own self evaluated value of your properties?

Hint: It's not this one.

I'm being obtuse?? 🤣

100%

To put it kindly, you have no idea what you're talking about.

You really are blinded by the lies aren't you. How could you NOT understand this.

You
do
not
pay
taxes
based
on
your
stated
value
of
your
properties.

Not normal people, not real estate professionals either.

I do not have a cartoon aka SchoolHouse Rock to enlighten you.

Maybe there are some tax professionals or IRS employees on here that can help. Until then, come with some proof or look a fool, your choice... Or just hold out and sit on your hands until someone much more qualified comes to move the goalposts... tomorrow about 10am would be my guess.

j/c:

Trump's net worth, boosted by Truth Social stock, lands him on world's 500 richest list
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ows-now-on-500-richest-list/73098851007/

Trump joins Bloomberg’s 500 wealthiest list after Truth Social merger
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...00-wealthiest-after-truth-social-merger/

Yeah, right. Trump is a busted billionaire. Show me the money.

I think what FATE is trying to say - and maybe this could be buried somewhere in the decision, too - is that the value of the property as far as taxes go is the appraised value of the property, whereas the value of the property for sake of sale or leverage would be more influenced by the property owner. Similar to how my home is assessed by the county for far less than what I would sell it for, which I think is how it is in most cases. Is that the point you are trying to achieve?

I do suppose, if Trump did something misleading to influence the appraisal process for taxes, and then submitted the same misleading information - both of which were relied upon and meet the scienter elements of fraud in the State of NY - then, yes, he could be caught in a pickle.

That's not what I'm "trying to say". Those are facts.

As far as the part I highlighted, you literally just created a scenario out of thin air, did you not? There is no information out there that he did that, and I don't even know if that is even a feasible argument. Just as it is the responsibility of a bank to perform due diligence before making a loan, it is up to a city, county or municipality to do it's own homework when valuing a property.

Not trying to be an idiot, as I'm sure you're just throwing out some 'food for thought', but some of these people have a real tough time with reading comprehension.

Let’s try to keep property taxes out of it. Not relevant to the finding of liability..

That stated, It has been known that valuations for loans were multiples of comparable or independent valuations. As far a taxes go, Trump argued for lower valuation or would appeal State or local valuations for payment of property taxes.

There is nothing out of the ordinary about a business or individual appealing a property tax assessment. It is just ironic to be stating multiples on loan applications, while claiming fractional valuations when property taxes are in dispute.

The loan company is not likely to see that discrepancy unless detailed information is provided.

File under trying to have your cake while eating it too…

You never know. As I said some days ago, people with mega wealth don't usually have $175,000,000 sitting in a checking or savings account. Liquidity is the problem.

I think he said he could post the bond. I am sure he has enough securities that can be sold or he knows he can get the bond, or some combination of the two. Before he would have had to sell skyscrapers, and you can't just sell off 1 or 2 in a few weeks. Deals like that can take months.

When he submits completely different sq ft of property and then gets benefits from both sides- business and government--that is fraud.

Hypocrisy

Especially a real estate "mogul". There's no comparison to just less than 11k sq. ft. and 33k sq.ft. That's triple the size. There's no doubt to any reasonably thinking person that he committed fraud multiple times over the course of years. It's amazing to me that a person who refuses to either admit it or recognizes this has the gall to post about other people having a comprehension problem.