I don't know if this just for show or if he got someone to put up the bond. My understanding he needs the whole $454 Million + 20%. I may have the 20% thing wrong.. Not sure and don't feel like looking it up. Do we need to follow the money to see who's fronting him the money? Saudis? Putin? or what banks he's taking out loans from? What properties is he putting up as collateral? should be fun to watch.

It will be interesting to see what the appeals court says about Engoron. He was and I guess still is a well respected judge. There is always a chance that an appeal will work I guess, but based on what this article is saying, I don't see it.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-fraud-case-appeal-454-million-new-york/

Former President Donald Trump on Monday officially began the process of appealing the historic $454 million judgment against him in his New York civil fraud case, a figure that is growing by more than $100,000 in interest every day.

In order to qualify for an automatic stay of the judgment as the appeal proceeds, Trump must fork over the entire amount as bond, known in the New York civil court system as an "undertaking."

Trump has not posted the bond, according to a spokesperson for New York Attorney General Letitia James. The spokesperson declined to comment on the appeal.

Trump attorney Clifford Robert summarized the issues Trump and other defendants will press on appeal in a pair of notices filed Monday morning. They have asked the Appellate Division, First Department — part of New York's second-highest court — to consider whether Judge Arthur Engoron "committed errors of law and/or fact, abused [his] discretion, and/or acted in excess of [his] jurisdiction" when overseeing the case.

In addition to the massive financial sanction, Engoron's Feb. 16 decision enjoined the defendants from seeking loans from any financial institution registered with New York state for three years. He also barred Trump and two executives from serving on the board of directors of any company in the state for the same amount of time, and imposed the same penalty on his sons Donald Jr. and Eric for two years. The ruling called for the installation of an independent director of compliance at the Trump Organization and continued oversight by an independent monitor.

Trump and the defendants are appealing all sanctions in Engoron's ruling.

"We trust that the Appellate Division will overturn this egregious fine and take the necessary steps to restore the public faith in New York's legal system," Trump attorney Alina Habba said in a statement to CBS News.

Engoron's 92-page ruling was one of the largest corporate sanctions in New York history. The judge found that Trump and others were liable for a decade of frauds that "leap off the page and shock the conscience."

He ordered $354 million in disgorgement, the amount of "ill-gotten gains" they made through a scheme to use fraudulent valuations of properties and Trump's net worth to land favorable loans and insurance terms. That figure jumps more than $100 million with years of interest factored in. Experts say it is unlikely Trump will be able to use funds from his presidential campaign to cover any of the judgment.

"Their complete lack of contrition and remorse borders on pathological," Engoron wrote. "They are accused only of inflating asset values to make more money. The documents prove this over and over again."

Engoron concluded that Trump and other defendants submitted "blatantly false financial data" to accountants, who compiled financial statements based on those falsehoods that were submitted to lenders and insurers.

"When confronted at trial with the statements, defendants' fact and expert witnesses simply denied reality, and defendants failed to accept responsibility or to impose internal controls to prevent future recurrences," Engoron wrote.
Trump Investigations More
The Trump Building at 40 Wall Street in New York City
Trump's civil fraud judgment is officially over $450 million, and climbing
Donald Trump Addresses Presidential Forum At NRB Convention
Trump claims immunity in move to dismiss classified documents case
Former US President Donald Trump sits in New York State Supreme Court during the civil fraud trial against the Trump Organization, in New York City on January 11, 2024.
Judge in Trump fraud case denies bid to pause $354 million judgment
Former President Donald Trump attends closing arguments in his civil fraud trial at New York State Supreme Court on Jan. 11, 2024.
Trump fraud ruling adds to his string of legal losses in New York
Graham Kates

Graham Kates is an investigative reporter covering criminal justice, privacy issues and information security for CBS News Digital. Contact Graham at KatesG@cbsnews.com or grahamkates@protonmail.com

First published on February 26, 2024 / 12:16 PM EST

Never admitting guilt. It’s a sad pattern.

If he does not put up bond, the AG will be able in 30 days to begin seizing property.

I suspect he'll put up the bond, but where is he going to get the money? Follow the money....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianb...eets-from-investigators/?sh=7f5cb4445176

Looking at this entire plot to stay in power no matter what is proof trump is a wanna be dictator.

The constitution, the idea of a democracy, the protection of the voter's rights none of that matters. Power corrupts absolutely.

trump is absolutely corrupt.

Trump is unable to make $464 million bond in civil fraud case, his lawyers tell court
Kara Scannell
By Kara Scannell, CNN
1 minute read
Updated 10:59 AM EDT, Mon March 18, 2024



Republican presidential candidate former President Donald Trump in Nashville, Tennessee in February.
Republican presidential candidate former President Donald Trump in Nashville, Tennessee in February. Jon Cherry/Getty Images
CNN
—
Former President Donald Trump can’t find an insurance company to underwrite his bond to cover the massive judgment against him in the New York attorney general’s civil fraud case, his lawyers told a New York appeals court.

Trump’s attorneys said he has approached 30 underwriters to back the bond, which is due by the end of this month.

“The amount of the judgment, with interest, exceeds $464 million, and very few bonding companies will consider a bond of anything approaching that magnitude,” Trump’s lawyers wrote. (Trump himself was fined $454 million; the $464 million includes the disgorgement for his adult sons Don Jr. and Eric.)


An insurance broker, Gary Giuletti, who testified for Trump during the civil fraud trial, signed an affidavit stating that securing a bond in the full amount “is a practical impossibility.”

Potential underwriters are seeking cash to back the bond, not properties, according to Trump’s lawyers.

Trump’s lawyers have asked the appeals court to delay posting the bond until his appeal of the case is over, arguing that the value of Trump’s properties far exceed the judgment.

This story is breaking and will be updated.

Oh …. isn’t he a multi billionaire? A measly half a billion should be peanuts for a multi billionaire. And in reality, trump’s past is the reason he can’t secure the bond, not the amount of it.

Do not pass go. Go directly to jail.

My thoughts exactly. He just answered the question of "How do you know a grifter is a grifter?"

I chuckled a little bit at this. It makes sense when you consider the underlying merits of what the original fraud case was about.

Of course, properties that have leans on them loose value exponentially.

I think it must be about the lack of equity involved with the properties. I've never heard of anyone that wouldn't take property as collateral if you had enough equity in the properties to cover the loan/bond. From just a realistic perspective he must owe as much on many of his properties as they're "actually" worth. If his pattern of the past is consistent, he tried to put them up as a bond at inflated prices to try and claim he had more equity than he actually had and they called him on his BS.

All trump has to do is sell one property for the exorbitant value he claims it is worth and he has an appeal for the NY fraud case.

It's gotta be a sign that he is currently in the middle of the 'find out' phase.

So all the magas are going to see he is not the multi billionaire he says he is and has lied to them. So they will realize they have been played and withdraw their support ?

Why do that when they can just double-down instead?

Oh right... Pelosi wont let him pay!!!! He has the money!!! Its the democrats fault!!!!

Sorry guys. The replies by the same people border on perverse.

His lawyers have said, I think in a court filing, that they contacted over 30 bond providers. None of them want property as collateral. They only want cash. My understanding is that he would need 1 billion in cash as collateral. Even if he were as wealthy as he has said he is, he doesn't have that kinda liquid cash. Again, I've not read this, just heard it on the news, but my understanding is that the Trump team has filed some kind of motion that would allow him to appeal without putting up the bond.

I'm not thinking that will work but I guess we'll see.

Perverse? That’s rich coming from a Trump supporter. Peen, your opinions and $8 will get you a cup of starbucks… without the cash, you get nada. Not even a listener.

*comments on Peen's post by telling him nobody is listening to him*

Comments on your post saying SO WHAT?

My understanding from it is if they don't get a bond or cough up the cash by next Monday, the judgement moves forward and NY can start looking at remedies for the cost of the award.
trump is asking that the appeal moves forward with either a greatly reduced bond amount (he cites other cases that this has happened) or the appeal moves forward with no bond at all, cause his properties cover the cost of any judgement. But that is before there are any liens against them, and that is actual appraised cost, not trump appraised cost.

From Wiki-Wells Fargo & Co., the master servicer of the $100 million mortgage loan Trump took out in 2012,[141] placed the tower on a debt watch list in September 2021 because its average occupancy had fallen to 78.9% from 85.9% at the end of 2020. Revenue was $33.7 million in 2020, $7.5 million in the first quarter of 2021.[142] By early 2024, Gucci was the only large retailer in the tower's retail atrium, which had once contained up to 60 stores.[143] Another analysis, publicized in February of the same year, found that the average per-square-foot cost of a condominium at Trump Tower had nearly halved from 2013 to early 2024.[144][145] The decline in condo prices was attributed to competition from newer towers nearby, the age of the building, and the protests that regularly occurred outside it.[144]


Daman, there are a couple other ways he could do the bond. You correctly stated cash, he could also get a equity loan himself against his properties, or he could put up stock/bonds, etc as colleterial. I am not sure if he could use the ownership of truth social as colleterial. I keep hearing if that deal goes through with the anticipated value of his in that venture would be worth about 4 billion. The sale is being held up as there are business partners suing trump, and he would not be able to cash his shares for 6 months after the sale anyway-I don't understand why he couldn't put them up to secure the bond.

My guess on the whole deal, he told the court a week out that he can't secure the bond in the hopes he gets the bond reduced. In reality, he doesn't want half a billion dollars bound up for a year or two while he keeps appealing to get the cost down, but doesn't want to pay the interest, and doesn't want the judgement to move forward.

I think that pretty much covers what I saw and read. But I did think I read that they don't want collateral at all... ONLY cash, so I think that would also leave Truth Social out of the mix. (I'm not sure that actually has that much value either by the way) Man the interest on that bond alone, should he even be able to get one, would be tough. Really Tough.,

If the judges decision breaks his way, he'll appeal, if not, I don't know for sure what he can do. I just don't think he has the money to do it for Cash.

He would have to get it somewhere else.. Maybe Russia, Maybe Orbon (sp) or perhaps his son in law, Musk, Putin. Perhaps even the saudi's.. Not sure. Also, he has a partner in a property in Las Vegas. Maybe if his partner were to buy him out, that might raise enough...Again, just not sure. That Vegas property may have been over valued and if so, what does that mean for him?

My hope is that the Judge doesn't see it his way and tells him to put up of shut up...That way they can start foreclosing on his properties.

I have no problem with you as a person, 'peen. In many ways (I would even say many of the more important topics) I'd even say we actually agree. Just want to preface what I'm about to say with that honest statement.

Going to bat for Trump while clutching pearls really don't go hand-in-hand. It sounds weak. You're talking about a guy that has consistently shown there is no low he won't stoop to for even the most insignificant W. That's the kind of person he is, so trying to drum up outrage over comments regarding his record-setting judgement and his inability to pay (and the irony of not being able to put up his criminally over-valued properties as collateral) is just not going to hit the mark.

Fairly typical response from you.

You wanna talk perverse, Try following a person that thinks that our military are stupid people who fight or die or get wounded or get captured in battle. That's perverse.

If that's how you have decided to define comments you don't like so be it. But for the most part they are true. To be a multi billionaire you must have a combination of liquid and other assets that in combination adds up to that total. A self described real estate mogul and multi billionaire should be able to come up with less than half a billion in assets and funds with which to make that bond. If not he is most likely lying about being a multi billionaire. I have no idea what you find perverse about that. Maybe it's some of the hyperbole blended in?

lmao bro this crap is hilarious

The "actions speak louder than words" axiom rears its ugly head.

Saw that he’s trying to stop the posting of cash by crying it’s unreasonable and he can’t find anyone willing to front him the bond. Hopefully, in the next week or two, they start taking his property and assets. Just desserts.

Quit. Like you know what the hell you are talking about.

Just shut up.

I have 2 commas in my account. Do you?

I am not putting you down, but I don't think you know how money works or how liquidity works.

Stay in the lane.


I will admit, I don't have 3 commas, so I don't have a clue how that works. Long way from 3 commas.

Very few Billionaires can come up with a 1/2 a billion on short notice. (musk, gates, bezos, buffett etc.) If they're smart, it's invested in something that may take a more than a moment to get the cash out. Trumps lawyers say they went to over 30 bond companies and nobody wanted the deal with Real estate as collateral. (saw a funny meme with Tom Selleck saying, "It's called a reverse mortgage LOL) I'm not sure if that means they don't trust the valuation of Trumps holdings or if they are too highly leveraged or they just don't want to mess with his holdings. That's messy business.

So it's cash or nothing. Or so it appears.

So what are his options? Get the court to modify the amount or remove the need for the bond? Get someone or group of someones to put up the cash for him? It's not an easy situation to deal with for any person, including a person of means. But it's like the theme to the old Starsky and Hutch TV show says, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time"! In this case it's don't do the crime if you can't pay the bill!

lol…Man o Man…the GOP is so weak, they won’t even bail out their own front runner. Meanwhile with the only chance to win they kicked Nikki to the curb. LOL GOPers beating themselves again.

Whispers of trump in panic mode. Possible bankruptcy? DT’s wealth was always a bad joke he made up.

I gotta preface what I'm about to say with 2 things.

1. I'm biased... I think Trump is guilty of the meat of what he's in court for right now and am looking forward to consequences to bad actors (and to the whattabouts... well, we gotta start somewhere).
2. I have no idea how this all works (posting bond), and don't see the need to find out as I don't plan on needing it. My assumption is that, at its core, it's an extremely expensive loan due to the the higher risk of non-payment (bail bonds in general).

What I find interesting is the "we scoured the land and found nobody willing to post the bond". These guys (bail bonds) are in business to make money... and the fact that nobody (allegedly) is looking to post bond is NOT a good look for Trump for multiple reasons (lack of acceptable assets and/or fear of him snaking his way out of payment).

What I wonder is if this is all just a play by Trump's legal team. They didn't really try to find someone that could/would post the bond so they could come crying back to the judge.

You either have the assets or you don't. trump brags abut all of the properties he owns and how rich he is. If he doesn't have the assets to back that up he's lying...... again. I wish some of you would stop making stupid excuses for him.

And again, that's all they got is excuses.

Remember it was only a short time ago that trump said he had over $400 million and he said it was growing substantially all the time. Something is a lie there. Does he actually have over $400 Million cash or was that a lie.

You guys talking about who has what number of commas doesn't mean a thing because neither of you ever bragged about having that money in cash.



Just remember, These are his words.. Not mine, not MSM, Trumps own words. Unless those that excuse him are gonna tell me he never said it and that it was AI generated.

Trump already tried that with something recently, don't remember what it was.

A good post. It's fair, but I don't agree with the last comment.


It's a BS ruling. I am not even commenting on whether it is a matter of guilt. More about the way it is set. The judge could have put a lien on something. Heck, the judge valued his home in in Palm Beach at $18 million. One acre lots sell for $20 mil on the ocean. His is like 25 . It's crazy.
No doubt NY is doing everything they can to ramrod this guy to the ground.

Like him or not, everybody should be concerned with what is happening here. It's blood thirst. The deep state is real and you should be concerned. You can't seize propertry after 30 days. In the courts it can take years.

Heck, look at California. They are trying to say you can't move out of the state without saying you won't owe taxes for years in the future

Call me old fashioned, but this is America. You can live wherever you want or do business wherever you want. Now California is trying to hold people and business hostage.

WTF?

So if Trump supporters donate their money to help pay his bill, and he wins appeal, do they get their money back? Or does Trump keep that, as well?

Why would you care who I give money to or if I get it back?? I don't care what you do with your money except that you seem ingrained in to that and we have talked about on several occasions in PM's. I care about what you do in the sense that you succeed, but in the end you make your own decisions.

I don't like Trump, but I don't like what the left is doing. It's dangerous.

You mean protecting democracy? fixing the economy? Or letting brown people in? Or maybe you want to keep your local potholes and hate the infrastructure deal?

And I know you hate that Biden wiped out student loans for public servants. I just can’t figure out how helping others hurts you financially, because I know all you really care about is you and your money. Sad part is, the only connection I see is taxes and you feel like every penny you pay in taxes goes to handouts, because that’s what pewople like you tend to think. You, Eve, and MGT.

I think he's speaking more to the Trump-side rather than the donor-side, the core question being will Trump give the bond money back or will he keep it in that hypothetical.

I think I am coincidently more in line with the conclusion that you gave, though. IMHO, if people are willing to donate money to a guy who was just found liable for fraud, to essentially pay for the judgment finding him liable for fraud, and expect to get their money back, well then I don't know what to tell them...

What does California have to do with this? Or is this just you airing your anger over something that doesn't concern you?

BS Ruling, maybe. I'm not an expert but I'd bet there are differing opinions on that.

Be that as it may, it's the ruling and he has to deal with it. Crying about how he's the victim is worthless. I'd bet most except those that continue to make excuses for him don't care,

As for this being America, yeah, it's the American way to pay what you owe. If you don't, you pay a price over and above your initial debt. (fines or penalties)

I don't know if you have a mortgage on your home or car, but if you don't pay the note, they tack on late fees. You go look, it's in the contract you signed.

Yours and some others inability to see this for what it is cracks me up. If it were Biden or Obama in financial or legal trouble you'd be cheering for these actions.

As far as the "Deep State",, You bet it's real. But it's not what YOU think.

The deep state is made up of the privileged folks that have taken those that are not sophisticated and trained them to think they are the same.

Follow the Money Peen. Look who is trying to skirt election laws. Look who is leading mobs of people. Those are the elites that Democrats are often being touted as being the "deep state"!

So please spare me the Faux outrage.

I think a lot of people think there's a slim chance that a judge that's not corrupt may preside over the appeals case. You know, one who won't publicly declare the defendant "guilty" before the case begins. One who won't shut down a business, the only such case in 70 years, without obvious victims and major losses. One who may agree that a half billion dollar fine is waay out of line. One who may even listen to witnesses who insist they were happy to lend the money and wanted to lend more, who said they do their own due-diligence in every case and don't rely on the valuations from the company they're loaning the money... in this case, a company that openly said their opinions on valuations are their own and the lender should do their own research. One who realizes all loans were paid back in full and scratches his/her head to wonder why a case was brought in the first place.

I'm trying to imagine a high-profile case where a minority is accused of a victimless crime. I imagine a judge declaring that person's guilt before the trial begins and vowing to ruin his life. The next part doesn't even require much imagination. There would be fire and destruction outside the courthouse, riots and looting in the streets, the judge would be removed, tarred, feathered, and marched through the street, his life ruined forever. I know it, you know it, everybody knows it.

lol I was just asking a question. I mean if I gave a billionaire money to pay his bills, I would hope said billionaire would be courteous enough to pay me back.

You can do whatever you please with your money, even if that means donating it to a billionaire lol.

He is struggling to secure a loan using the value of his assets to appeal a judgment for hyping up the value of his assets to secure favorable loans. Pffft trump.

The legal system isn't the left. You seem to claim that the court following legal procedures is somehow nefarious. This is simply the way the system works. It only becomes "not fair" when trump has to follow the same rules as everyone else.

FYI he was found guilty of a crime. Victims have nothing to do with it. Falsified documents to secure favorable loans is against the law. trump saved billions of dollars by lying. Time to pay up or STFU.

I think his response was odd. You asked if "a trump supporter" would get their money back. Peen responded with "Why would you care who I give money to or if I get it back??"

Then later claimed "I don't like Trump".

So does this indicate he is a trump supporter who doesn't like him?

He based him being guilty on a judgement that had already established his guilt. He didn't get two bites of the apple on his guilt. This trial was only to determine the amount of the damages based on the previous judgement of his guilt.

What are the risks when you lie on your loan application?
If the lender catches you lying on your application, losing the loan will be the least of your worries. You could go to jail because fibbing on a loan application is a crime. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), making false statements on loan applications is a white-collar crime and is punishable by up to 30 years of imprisonment.

I only know 1 poster here that claims they like or even voted for trump, most know the backlash of declaring that tidbit here. Lol

So he claimed it was impossible for him to pay his bond while he now claims to have the cash.

You just have to try and figure out which one is the lie as per usual with him......

Trump Confesses He Has the Money to Post Bond Amid Bizarre Meltdown

Donald Trump is close to the deadline to post bond in his fraud trial—and he’s straight up losing it.

After having reached out to several guarantors and 30 suretors for help posting his $464 million New York bank fraud bond, Donald Trump suddenly wants everyone to know he actually does have the cash.

In a bizarre rant on Friday morning, the man who was found to have defrauded banks and investors by overvaluing himself and the value of his properties claimed that he had accrued the wealth by way of “HARD WORK, TALENT, AND LUCK.”

Trump also admitted he has nearly half a billion dollars in cash. Here is what he posted on Truth Social.....

THROUGH HARD WORK, TALENT, AND LUCK, I CURRENTLY HAVE ALMOST FIVE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS IN CASH, A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF WHICH I INTENDED TO USE IN MY CAMPAIGN FOR PRESIDENT. THE OFTEN OVERTURNED POLITICAL HACK JUDGE ON THE RIGGED AND CORRUPT A.G. CASE, WHERE I HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG, KNEW THIS, WANTED TO TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME, AND THAT’S WHERE AND WHY HE CAME UP WITH THE SHOCKING NUMBER WHICH, COUPLED WITH HIS CRAZY INTEREST DEMAND, IS APPROXIMATELY $454,000,000. I DID NOTHING WRONG EXCEPT WIN AN ELECTION IN 2016 THAT I WASN’T EXPECTED TO WIN, DID EVEN BETTER IN 2020, AND NOW LEAD, BY A LOT, IN 2024.THIS IS COMMUNISM IN AMERICA!

The confession directly contradicts a filing from his legal team last month arguing that it would be “impossible” to secure a bond covering the full amount of the multimillion-dollar ruling.

Trump’s words will surely help out New York Attorney General Letitia James, who on Wednesday urged an appeals court to ignore Donald Trump’s latest effort to worm his way out of paying the $464 million disgorgement from his bank fraud trial.
The former president has until Monday to pay off the half a billion dollar disgorgement—and if he doesn’t, James can begin taking steps to seize his assets to cover the debt, including 40 Wall Street and Trump Tower.

But Trump is juggling more than the fine deadline. Paying out of pocket could potentially put a major Wall Street deal on the line for the former president, as well. On Friday, investors in Truth Social are expected to sign off on a deal that would allow the company to go public, potentially offering a gigantic financial windfall for the GOP presidential pick. In a public version of the company, which would begin trading in just a few weeks, Trump would own at least 58 percent of the shares—a stake valued at $3 billion, reported Politico.

It would, however, trip him up in the short term. In order to begin the process, Trump would need to tie up his shares of the company in a lock-up agreement for the next six months, and any potential offloading by the former president could be seen as cataclysmic to a deal that rides on his involvement.

https://newrepublic.com/post/180055/trump-confesses-money-bond-fraud-trial

Lying to the court never usually turns out to be a good thing.

Deutsche Bank testified that the rates would have been the same regardless of his valuations.

And what makes the documents false? Because a corrupt judge says so? The same judge that valued Mar-a-Lago at 18M when the rest of the planet says it's in the neighborhood of 25x that much.

Now if it had only been Deutsche Bank and a single infraction you may have something left to cling to. But it happened over and over again for a period of years.

trump is the the rest of the planet to you. And MAR-a-“Legos” is just the tip of the iceberg in falsifying documents for all the loans he had over the years. And if his properties are truly worth what he say they are. Why can’t he secure a loan? Should be peanuts for a multi billionaire to secure.

Question for clarification - what was he found guilty of?

Eeeeasy answer.

Being Donald Trump.

One of the many, countless rulings from the judge that says you wrong. And there are plenty more. It is on page 10. If you want, a link to the whole ruling is posted at the end. Have someone read it to you.


Haigh affirmed that the Private Wealth Management Division would not have done business
with Donald Trump without a personal guarantee, and that the personal guarantee was the reason
for favorable pricing on the loan and the large size of the loan itself. TT 1017, 1020-1021, 1032.
The Doral loan was conditioned on certain continuing covenants. One such covenant required
Donald Trump to maintain a minimum net worth of $2.5 billion, excluding any value related to
his brand. PX 293; TT 1024. As the “ultimate signer” of the credit risk management team,
Haigh determined the required amount of Donald Trump’s minimum net worth “in order to make
sure that the bank would be fully protected under adverse market conditions.” TT 1025-1026. In
the event of a default of any of the covenants, Haigh stated the bank would have “various
remedies … which it can pursue like waiving the breach, which it might do for an
inconsequential breach; negotiating some variation of the terms of the loan; or potentially
accelerating the loan and ask for repayment.” TT 1028.
The covenant obligated Donald Trump to provide an annual financial statement. Haigh stressed
that the annual SFCs were required because “[t]he bank wants to be sure that the client’s
financial strength is being maintained and also the bank wants to be able to test its covenants
periodically,” and that “[t]he bank would use the financial information that [the client] provided
to test itself to try and ensure that the client is in compliance with those covenants.” TT 1022-
1023.



https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4473139-trump-354-million-civil-fraud-decision-read/

Please explain how that has anything to do with anything I said.

Yep, being trump means lying on loan applications. Found guilty of falsifying loan applications. White collar crimes are what GOPers are all about. If you ain’t cheating you ain’t winning, right?

Yep.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/22/business/trump-media-merger-truth-social.html


Maybe the courts will take this as collateral?

Well this is certainly interesting article that Pit posted.

Peen and FATE, y’all still donating to homeboy even though he just claimed he has the cash?

He only posted that because all the networks (maybe except FOX and Newsmax) have been pointing out his lies about worth.

Now, if I'm the judge in this case, I'd freeze that money. He wouldn't be able to touch it. That's if it's in an account in his name. Not sure if you can touch his campaign account. Probably not.

Not how it works for dupes bro. They have no choice, must send dear leader money… Like little old ladies on social security sending cash to the church.

To a certain extent you are correct. His lawless pattern of behavior dictates he does not believe the rules apply to him. He thinks that he can't be beaten and if he is he tries to illegally change the outcome. He is a habitual liar. So you are correct that the people who act like trump are to be held accountable. And when they are we have people like you blaming it on everyone else in true trumpian form.

Well, you obviously quit.


Just an attempt to throw [censored] at the wall and see what sticks, and an extremely weak one at that.


First, let's back up one paragraph that you conveniently left out, my text will follow.

Before approving the credit facility, the Private Wealth Management Division consulted
Deutsche Bank’s Valuation Services Group about market conditions to arrive at a conservative
estimate of the value of the commercial real estate should a need arise to liquidate during “bad
market conditions.” TT 1013-1016. In so doing, the Valuation Services Group applied a 50%
“haircut” to the valuations presented by the client, which Haigh affirmed was the “standardized
number for commercial real assets.”6 TT 1016, 1041.

So, everybody's stated assets are given a 50% haircut. I wonder why? Seems strange that a bank makes such large loans of their own free will using such a simple standard formula. One that allows for the exaggeration of asset value offered by every client.


Haigh affirmed that the Private Wealth Management Division would not have done business
with Donald Trump without a personal guarantee, and that the personal guarantee was the reason
for favorable pricing on the loan and the large size of the loan itself. TT 1017, 1020-1021, 1032.

Ah, so Trump's agreement to the loan allowed them to pierce the corporate shield and come after personal assets no matter what, even in the case of a bankruptcy. This favors Trump how??


The Doral loan was conditioned on certain continuing covenants. One such covenant required
Donald Trump to maintain a minimum net worth of $2.5 billion, excluding any value related to
his brand. PX 293; TT 1024. As the “ultimate signer” of the credit risk management team,
Haigh determined the required amount of Donald Trump’s minimum net worth “in order to make
sure that the bank would be fully protected under adverse market conditions.” TT 1025-1026. In
the event of a default of any of the covenants, Haigh stated the bank would have “various
remedies … which it can pursue like waiving the breach, which it might do for an
inconsequential breach; negotiating some variation of the terms of the loan; or potentially
accelerating the loan and ask for repayment.” TT 1028.

So Trump had to adhere to additional conditions above the norm to adhere to the loan conditions, man he really drives a hard bargain! And their remedies include asking for immediate payment. Hmmm...


The covenant obligated Donald Trump to provide an annual financial statement. Haigh stressed
that the annual SFCs were required because “[t]he bank wants to be sure that the client’s
financial strength is being maintained and also the bank wants to be able to test its covenants
periodically,” and that “[t]he bank would use the financial information that [the client] provided
to test itself to try and ensure that the client is in compliance with those covenants.” TT 1022-
1023.

And even more conditions in the favor of the bank. Ones that will allow them to render the loan null and void and demand immediate collection if Trump failed to do something as simple as supplying annual proof of solvency and net worth.



I have no idea what you were attempting to do, but you pulled a championship-level Costanza, and did the exact opposite. 🤣

Thanks for helping me make my point!

Pit@DawgTalkers says if you've committed a crime in the past, you're automatically guilty of any further crimes you're suspected of.

Thanks for bringing such insight to the conversation. It's not something we didn't know about you, but it's always nice to have clarification in black and white.

And then claiming he actually has that 500 million for his "campaign" flies in the face of what he has reported according to filings with the Federal Election Commission Wednesday night. His political action committee combined with his campaign raised 15.9 million in February with a total of 37 million on hand. So who is he lying to now?

Trump's latest 2024 campaign fundraising report shows him lagging behind Biden in cash
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wir...ndraising-report-shows-lagging-108348177

The evidence speaks volumes. What, you're not convinced because there's no DNA? Seems like I heard that one before.

Ah, now it's the evidence. Nice try.

If you're not smart enough to figure out that when you appoint fake electors in seven swing states, tell election officials if they don't change their results that may be committing a crime and America won't stand for it among many other things is an attempt to overturn an election you are beyond help.

Aw. Your ability to address the truth is beyond belief. You questioned my assertion if him having a lawless pattern of behavior. When I provided you with the evidence to back it up you avoid it at all costs by making sound as if that's my fault. You're really not very good at this. Your mindless meme does not apply here as per usual. It's all the weak ammunition you have to avoid the fact he does have a pattern of lawless behavior. If you could outgrow such childish behavior they may start allowing you to shop in the mens department again.

Nope.

Just not down with another day of Whack-A-Mole in #PitsWorld.

As for the other childish ish in that post -- "your mama".

Aw. Once again blaming me because you can't refute the facts. #thoughtsandprayers

Lol, I was actually being serious. Not trying to be an ass either. I knew that he had been found liable already and that the trial was about damages. But I didn't know if he had actually been found guilty in the case of a misdemeanor or something else. I figured not, but I don't know everything.

I think you and I depart when it comes to the judge for one basic reason: it did not have to be a bench trial. To my knowledge, Trump's team could have filed a request for trial by jury, but never did. He hired enough people who could have made an educated guess on that topic, but ultimately it would seem that they deemed going with Engoron to be fair. Also, it probably didn't help that they basically personally insulted him day after day during the trial.

Making the accused look like horrible people in court is what prosecutors do.There are times that I too don't believe that should allowed but as of now it's part of how courts are conducted all across the country. Overall I'm not a fan of prosecutors being elected officials. Their careers depend on a high percentage of guilty verdicts. Which I believe is why we have found that so many innocent people have been incarcerated since DNA has shown that to be true.

I meant Trump's team personally insulted the judge. I need to reduce my pronoun usage.

Former President Donald Trump did not request a jury for his New York civil fraud trial, but even if he had asked for one, the answer would've been "no," a judge said Wednesday.

Judge Arthur Engoron addressed an issue that had been the subject of speculation on social media and by Trump himself, saying it "keeps coming up," even though he doesn't "read the papers or go online to read about" the trial.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-trial-no-jury-fraud-new-york-judge-arthur-engoron/

Yes, they along with trump have attacked the judge as well as the prosecutor over and over again. trump is still doing it to both. It seems as though his image and the image he wishes to portray means more to him that proper court decorum. That trying to claim the consequences for his own actions is someone elses fault is somehow a positive. I'm certainly not an attorney like you are but I've never known anyone in their right mind thinking that attacking the prosecutor and the judge was helpful to them in a court case. Be it civil or criminal.

Who was this judge and how does he know how Engoron would have ruled?

Is there a constitutional right to a jury trial in civil cases?

Constitutional Amendments – Amendment 7 – “The Right to Jury Trial in Civil Affairs” Amendment Seven to the Constitution was ratified on December 15, 1791. It protects the right for citizens to have a jury trial in federal courts with civil cases where the claim exceeds a certain dollar value.

“In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.”


I don't believe Engoron would have had a choice under the law if it had been requested within the proper time frame. I mean under the law.

Oh, interesting. Thanks. I did think it was bizarre to have a bench trial. Is his opinion published? I'd like to read it.

It may be. I actually have some work to do atm, I'll look later. The link I provided actually spells out a lot of the reasoning in his own words. Not a direct quote, but basically "it would be unfair and imprudent to ask a jury to calculate damages anyway, so why bother?"

Here is a quote from the article you posted. There are no quotes so it doesn't seem to be an engoron quote but intended as a factual statement:

In the ongoing New York fraud case, the state is seeking $250 million in disgorgement, a kind of equitable remedy that is a clawback of ill-gotten gains — the amount of benefit that the state says Trump and the co-defendants personally received from alleged fraud. Authorities cannot ask a jury to make that kind of calculation.

It seems that therer are 2 parts to the litigation.

Part 1: did the defendent commit fraud? It seems like this could have been a jury trial if requested

Part 2: once found guilty, there is a determination of damages which cannot be done by a jury.


This makes anything quoted confusing because it is never clear to which the quote is referring to.
This is my take

I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make here.

Here is my take. I have filled out numerous Personal Financial Statements for various loans, generally required when a bank requires a personal security to cover a business loan. (i.e. if the corporation defaults, they are coming after you personally to cover the debt). So bankruptcy is not an option. The individual signing on behalf of the corporation is personally at risk. You as the individual are co-signing for the corporate loan.

Let's just say I approached such applications and statements it with the intent to be totally accurate in the valuations provided.

I will say that the language contained in those default clauses is some of the most harsh that I have ever read. It is an eye opener for sure. It does not end there. Some loans require yearly updates and the bank can "call the loan" (demand full payment) if they don't like the updated information even if full payment has been made.

There is always a statement on these loan application forms that "false statements can result in loan denial and prosecution." On a SBA loan there is a specific reference to 18 U.S.C. 1001.

So it is a crime to provide a false statement on the application. And this is what got Trump cross with the NY AG and led to the charges. Trump overinflated or outright lied about the elements of his wealth (e.g. 31,000 sq. ft. apartment when it is in fact 11,000) and the valuations had no basis in reality (over inflated in multiples, not percentage) or comps were no where close. Trump attempted to "disclaim" the valuations on the loan applications, and you really can't do that. You are responsible for the accuracy of the statement, and the Trump disclaimer is total B.S.

Engoron reviews the financial statements and determines without jury involvement (summary judgement) that Trump committed the fraud and is found guilty (liable) in the civil proceeding. Again anyone with a reasonable understanding of the subject matter would have come to the same conclusion. Statements made were totally false to obtain preferred interest.

Now it would take someone with some skill to determine or estimate how much Trump actually benefited with the lower interest, and that wound up being 350 million or so, once the accountants got done with it. That probably can be disputed, but there is most likely a pretty solid back up from a real estate CPA with knowledge.

Trump has argued that this is a victimless crime as no one was harmed. While true, it is also irrelevant. The law exists to obtain accuracy in loan applications, otherwise most applications would be false and ultimately the system would crumble because everyone could lie without recourse. Hence the reason for the law in the first place.

You want a loan, you need to be truthful on the application. That is the rule/law that applies to everyone else and the rule/law that Trump ignored.

If you are found to be using false information to obtain a loan, can't they just call the note due immediately?

Just to clarify, summary judgment doesn't necessarily mean without jury involvement. Summary judgment is based upon a pre-trial motion where one side basically says "Looking at the entirety of the undisputable facts and legal arguments at issue, there is essentially no need to go to trial (either bench or jury) and the matter can be decided now." Oddly enough, it's not entirely uncommon for both sides to file motions for summary judgment.

Is that what happened to the fraud finding in this case? Was it based on summary judgment? I knew the trial was about damages, but I never knew the finding of liability for fraud was based on an MSJ (Motion for Summary Judgment).

Depends on the loan language, but yes that condition can exist.

Trump may be at risk on other loans due to the change in net worth.

It is my understanding that Engoron made a summary judgement without testimony from any of the parties.

That only happens when evidence is overwhelming.

Thought so. I do have doubts that any loan condition is ever written that allows for false claims however.

So let's recap. Court gives trump a deadline to post the bond. That deadline is today. Trump's lawyers go before the court and claim it's impossible for trump to raise those funds and can't cover the bond. Then trump publicly states he has the money to cover the bond but plans to use the money on his campaign. So now, according to trump's own words, his attorneys lied to the court about his ability to cover the bond and in fact trump told the court he could cover the bond but he refuses to. And as a final topper to all of this he claims he was planning to use the money for his campaign when in fact he has had two previous presidential campaigns and never used a dime of his own money to fund either one of them.

I think that about covers where we are at.

I’m pretty sure anyone else that did this would be sitting in a 8x8 cell by now.

Appeals court lowered trump's bond to 175 million and he has ten more days to pay it.

Bet he still has issues getting that. Bond companies usually cap out at 100mil. We’ll see.

I don't think he needs any help with 175

I have no idea. What we know so far is his lawyers told the court it was impossible for trump to raise the 454 million. Then trump said he had the money but wasn't going to pay the bond with it. This time? Who knows what the story will be or how many versions of it we're going to hear. I agree with you that he shouldn't need help with the 175 million. But God knows what he's going to say or do this go round.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24432595-trump-civil-trial-decision

FYI - here is the decision, I think at least. I will try to peruse through it later. It opens up with quite the bang.

Edit ~ yeesh, 92 pages...

I think that's just for Bond purposes so he can appeal! He still owes the whole 454 million if I'm not mistaken!

He should have no problem getting $175 million. After all, last friday on Truth Social he said he had almost $500 million.. So he should be able to write a check. Right?

If I was representing the state of new york, I would get a sworn testimony from the trump organization what the exact value of his properties were in the years that he supposedly committed fraud. Once we have sworn documentation of what he believes is the true and accurate value, I would come back the next day with "Judge, in light of the trump organizations sworn testimony, we would like to drop the fraud charge and submit this bill for delinquent taxes with interest."

Does he then say he committed perjery and admit committing fraud? Or does he pay the tax bill which I am sure would be exorbitant?
Then NY can say, we are not attacking him because of his politics. We are just demanding that he pay his taxes like every other patriotic american...

I'm not understanding how his opinion of the value of his properties would have anything to do with his tax situation.

His opinions were used to decrease property taxes on one hand and raise valuations for loans on the other hand. You can’t see the fraud? Blinded by the lies.

A few notable excerpts from the decision as I go along:

"In order to borrow more, and at lower rates, defendants submitted blatantly false financial data to the accountants, resulting in fraudulent financial statements."

(So in this point, even though loans may have been repaid, the interest rate at which they were lent turns into an issue).

"When confronted at trial with the statements, defendants' fact and expert witnesses simply denied reality, and defendants failed to accept responsibility or to impose internal controls to prevent future recurrences."

Ouch.

"Timely and total repayment of the loans does not extinguish the harm that false statements inflict upon the marketplace. Indeed, the common excuse that 'everybody does it' is all the more reason to strive for honesty and transparency and to be vigilant in enforcing the rules. Here, despite the false financial statements, it is undisputed that defendants have made all required payments on time; the next group of lenders to receive bogus statements might not be so lucky."

As was mentioned before, summary judgment was granted in September 2023, and this decision confirmed it.

The decision then goes through A LOT of individuals. This one was interesting:

"In a 2015 appraisal of 40 Wall Street, Larson included the value of a Dean & Deluca lease that yielded annual rent of $1.4 million and he applied a 4.25 percent cap rate, for a total value of $540 million. Notwithstanding, the 2015 SFC backup data double-counted the Dean & Deluca lease. McConney also included a much lower cap rate than the one on the appraisal and listed the total value of 40 Wall Street over $735 million, citing Larson as the source. Larson repeatedly confirmed that he was not a source for that number, that the number was nearly $200 million more than his own appraisal, and that he did not work for McConney or anyone else at the Trump Organization to determine the cap rate used to generate the $735 million value."

More to come.

His opinions decreased property taxes? His opinions + a magic wand, or did he drug and hypnotize the county assessor and auditor? I crossed out everything else that had nothing to do with the question I asked.

Trump reported one inflated value to the banks while at the same time reporting a significantly lower value on his taxes.
He either committed bank fraud or tax fraud.
Simple unless you are purposely trying to be obtuse

Technically both, because neither were true evaluations. And those evals were based on wildly inflated worth or very undervalued tax assessments. Had he paid taxes on what he claimed his holdings were worth on loans, he would have paid much more. Dude just gaming the system, basically lying his way to massive net worth. Conman from day one and an absolute trash individual.

On what planet do you pay taxes based on you own self evaluated value of your properties?

Hint: It's not this one.

I'm being obtuse?? 🤣

100%

To put it kindly, you have no idea what you're talking about.

You really are blinded by the lies aren't you. How could you NOT understand this.

You
do
not
pay
taxes
based
on
your
stated
value
of
your
properties.

Not normal people, not real estate professionals either.

I do not have a cartoon aka SchoolHouse Rock to enlighten you.

Maybe there are some tax professionals or IRS employees on here that can help. Until then, come with some proof or look a fool, your choice... Or just hold out and sit on your hands until someone much more qualified comes to move the goalposts... tomorrow about 10am would be my guess.

j/c:

Trump's net worth, boosted by Truth Social stock, lands him on world's 500 richest list
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ows-now-on-500-richest-list/73098851007/

Trump joins Bloomberg’s 500 wealthiest list after Truth Social merger
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...00-wealthiest-after-truth-social-merger/

Yeah, right. Trump is a busted billionaire. Show me the money.

I think what FATE is trying to say - and maybe this could be buried somewhere in the decision, too - is that the value of the property as far as taxes go is the appraised value of the property, whereas the value of the property for sake of sale or leverage would be more influenced by the property owner. Similar to how my home is assessed by the county for far less than what I would sell it for, which I think is how it is in most cases. Is that the point you are trying to achieve?

I do suppose, if Trump did something misleading to influence the appraisal process for taxes, and then submitted the same misleading information - both of which were relied upon and meet the scienter elements of fraud in the State of NY - then, yes, he could be caught in a pickle.

That's not what I'm "trying to say". Those are facts.

As far as the part I highlighted, you literally just created a scenario out of thin air, did you not? There is no information out there that he did that, and I don't even know if that is even a feasible argument. Just as it is the responsibility of a bank to perform due diligence before making a loan, it is up to a city, county or municipality to do it's own homework when valuing a property.

Not trying to be an idiot, as I'm sure you're just throwing out some 'food for thought', but some of these people have a real tough time with reading comprehension.

Let’s try to keep property taxes out of it. Not relevant to the finding of liability..

That stated, It has been known that valuations for loans were multiples of comparable or independent valuations. As far a taxes go, Trump argued for lower valuation or would appeal State or local valuations for payment of property taxes.

There is nothing out of the ordinary about a business or individual appealing a property tax assessment. It is just ironic to be stating multiples on loan applications, while claiming fractional valuations when property taxes are in dispute.

The loan company is not likely to see that discrepancy unless detailed information is provided.

File under trying to have your cake while eating it too…

You never know. As I said some days ago, people with mega wealth don't usually have $175,000,000 sitting in a checking or savings account. Liquidity is the problem.

I think he said he could post the bond. I am sure he has enough securities that can be sold or he knows he can get the bond, or some combination of the two. Before he would have had to sell skyscrapers, and you can't just sell off 1 or 2 in a few weeks. Deals like that can take months.

When he submits completely different sq ft of property and then gets benefits from both sides- business and government--that is fraud.

Hypocrisy

Especially a real estate "mogul". There's no comparison to just less than 11k sq. ft. and 33k sq.ft. That's triple the size. There's no doubt to any reasonably thinking person that he committed fraud multiple times over the course of years. It's amazing to me that a person who refuses to either admit it or recognizes this has the gall to post about other people having a comprehension problem.

Jc

Just so we’re clear here, conservatives no longer care about presidents maintaining direct control over their businesses while in office, correct?

Let’s DJT stock at least maintains its valuation and continues into the future. Republican voters are gonna be cool with a guy running the country and maintaining his stock price at the same time?

Just wondering.cause we all hated Bezos for owning the Washington post, and I don’t think any conservatives would be cool if he maintained that and became president at the same time.

I don't know. The state sets the assessed value. If he overvalued the property and the state used that valuation, he would have paid more in taxes.

In your situation the country, state tax assessor sends you a notice every few years letting you know your new assessed value. They don't let you give them the figure, and if you did, you would probably undervalue the property.

For them the rules no longer apply. Family values no longer apply. Honesty no longer applies. Criminal activity no longer applies. What you point out, an obvious conflict of interest no longer applies. I think we have gotten to the point he really could go out on 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and not lose any votes.

Banks have a duty to do their own due diligence when loaning money.

None had a problem with the valuations when lending the money. All the banks were paid on time. For them it was good business.

Come on man, you are a smart guy sounding stupid.

So the fact that banks should do their own evaluations or are paid back excuse submitting fraudulent loan applications? Is it somehow then not fraud? Does reporting an apartment is three times its actual size not a fraudulent statement on a loan application?

It’s a white collar crime to lie on a loan app. Punishable up to 30 years in prison according to the FBI. Yeah yea we know…The party of criminal activity doesn’t prosecute and excuses their own crimes.

That's your answer? Hypocrisy??

You're certainly a special kind of special.

You
Do
Pay
Property
Taxes
Based
On
The
Value
Of
The
Property
Which
Could
Change
Your
Overall
Stated
Value.

More

Do you call your county auditor and tell them what your property value is, or do they tell you?


I could teach cats to drive a train quicker than this.

So lying on a loan application by inflating your worth isn't a crime? That isn't defined as fraud under the criminal code?

As if trump has never paid off a public official or paid out hush money. You crack me up. Ignoring white collar crimes and such. But not surprised.

Banks have a fiduciary responsibility to due due diligence, that does not change the fact that the loan applicant has a legal responsibility to be truthful on the loan application.

I don't know if banks have a legal responsibility to perform due diligence.

It almost sounds as if they're trying to blame the banks for the fact that trump submitted fraudulent loan applications.

I'm not ignoring anything. You and yours are moving the goalposts now that you've lost another argument. Also known as "Tuesday".

So lying on a loan application by inflating your worth isn't a crime? That isn't defined as fraud under the criminal code?

Go ahead and explain what that has to do with the property tax argument I was having with Peter, Paul and Mary and I'll answer the question.

Lol, you okay, bud? Yeah, I am NOT saying that is what happened. It was food for thought. I don't even know if it's possible, but trying to look for plausible scenarios on a global level.

While it isn't about that particular portion of the topic it is most certainly relevant to the topic itself. As of now I haven't seen you comment on the actual charges themselves. The ongoing theme to this point by many has been they are "picking on trump", "There are no victims" and "Everybody does it". So I'm simply looking to see where you stand in regards to what he did repeatedly being a crime or not.

I'm not a part of the claim that trump set his own property values in regards to their value on his tax returns. But I'm most certainly a part of the claim that you can't take what you report on your property value on your taxes and over inflate those values and even the size of the property for personal gain in applying for loans. You can't claim a value that is multiples of what you claim the property to be worth just a short time ago on your taxes.

Am I okay?

Yes. Fought off all the boneheaded statements and lies, now I'm to the part I'll just be written off as a dirty, dirty, MAGA fascist Trump supporter... for stating facts that are as clear as black and white. Wait, back-up, first I'll have to dodge moving goalposts and snide remarks about what kind of person I am. Again, for stating 100% facts.

How is your day going?

trump has cheated on all three of his wives and had to pay off a porn star. Family values no longer apply. Trump has been proven over and over again to be a habitual liar. Honesty no longer applies. Having ownership in a huge corporation while being president is why no president before trump has done this. It's an obvious conflict of interest. A conflict of interest no longer applies. He has obviously have been found to have committed criminal activity by committing fraud on loan documents repeatedly over a long period of time. Criminal activity no longer applies.

It's not my fault you're trying to blame me just because you're in denial. Speaking of being a smart guy who sounds stupid.

I've commented on all of those things numerous times in this thread. You've even responded to some of those comments.

I have seen you use many of the repeated convenient excuses for his actions but nowhere have I seen you state whether you believe the things he did were fraudulent or not. If you don't wish to answer that question it's just fine. But by every legal standard his actions constitute fraud. I was simply wondering if beyond the excuses for such a thing if you were willing to admit that or not.

Yes. By legal standard, his actions constitute fraud.

Thanks for your reply.

Exactly what and anarchist would say. See, I figured you out. You don’t like Trump any mpre than me, you just want the government to fail.

For you and Fate: I know taxes are assessed by the local government, but Trump was more than happy with the low assessments, probably argued about some being worth less, BUT he never pulled out the numbers or loans he had from banks when paying taxes… And Fate IS FAKE NEWS ANARCHIST STYLE.

I'm an anarchist because you have no clue what you're talking about.


Daman was way more entertaining... after realizing he had no chance of spitting out a fact he just screamed "Hypocrisy!". 🤣

You two could have your own reality show, but that would be taking work away from farm animals.

Enjoy your L. Again... and again... and again... and again.

Haven't checked this forum out much recently. I'm traveling and enjoying a steak and glass of Malbec and playing catch up ...

On trump and his alleged financial fraud.... I thought (and this is from a year plus ago) that he systematically over inflated values.for loan applications and under inflated them for tax purposes. Is that pretty much accepted ?

So the only questions I think would be relevant ...

> Did trump initiate or know? I would imagine yes - jmo.
> does it matter if he knew? No. Otherwise every high powered exec could claim ignorance for any paperwork submitted on.their behalf by a third party.
> is trump being given special attention for.something others would not be prosecuted for? ... again imo no, not when its this scale. From memory the same district has prosecuted others for the same or v similar offenses . Not lots because its not a common occurrence but there is precedence.

So... what am I missing? Certainly not an expert or infallible .

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...gU0.qLiZ.V1eg19RCY95g&smid=url-share

$254.1 million

in donations

Various Trump accounts

$107 million

in legal expenses


How Trump Moved Money to Pay $100 Million in Legal Bills
By Molly Cook Escobar, Albert Sun and Shane Goldmacher March 27, 2024
Since leaving office in 2021, former President Donald J. Trump has spent more than $100 million on lawyers and other costs related to fending off various investigations, indictments and his coming criminal trials, according to a New York Times review of federal records.

The remarkable sum means that Mr. Trump has averaged more than $90,000 a day in legal-related costs for more than three years — none of it paid for with his own money.

Instead, the former president has relied almost entirely on donations made in an attempt to fight the results of the 2020 election.

Now, those accounts are nearly drained, and Mr. Trump faces a choice: begin to pay his own substantial legal fees or find another way to finance them.

November 2020 to Early 2021
Mr. Trump raised a staggering $254 million online from Nov. 4, 2020, the day after the election, to President Biden’s inauguration on Jan. 20, 2021, as he urged supporters to fuel an “election defense fund.”


$254.1 million

in donations

Save

America PAC

Trump 2020

Committee

$15.6

million

$15.6 million

in legal expenses


The New York Times
The contributions came so quickly that on Nov. 9, Mr. Trump formed a new political action committee, Save America, to store all the cash.

Only a fraction of the money, however, went toward recounts and other legal challenges to the election. Some went to Mr. Trump’s lawyers during his second impeachment, related to the Jan. 6 riot.

But Mr. Trump banked much of the cash.

Rest of 2021
Mr. Trump started to use the money to fund his post-presidential political operation and what would eventually become his sprawling legal teams. In February, Trump renamed his 2020 committee to “MAGA PAC.”


$94.9 million

in donations

Save

America PAC

MAGA

PAC

$10.6

million

$295,800

$10.9 million

in legal expenses


The New York Times
By the end of 2021, Save America, which continued to bring in new donations, held a substantial portion of Mr. Trump’s fund-raising: $105 million.

2022
Both Save America and MAGA PAC spent significantly in 2022 on legal bills and other related expenses. The House held its public Jan. 6 hearings. The F.B.I. searched Mar-a-Lago for missing classified documents in August. His legal fees rose.

Mr. Trump spent about $27.2 million on legal-related costs for the year.


$84.6 million

in donations

Save

America PAC

MAGA

Super PAC

MAGA

PAC

$10.5

million

$16.7

million

$60.0 million

$27.2 million

in legal expenses


The New York Times
As Mr. Trump prepared to announce his 2024 run late in 2022, he faced a quandary: His PAC could not directly spend money to elect him as president. So Save America transferred $60 million to a pro-Trump super PAC called MAGA Inc.

2023
Save America began 2023 with $18.3 million. But Mr. Trump’s legal expenses were about to soar. He was first indicted in March 2023 in New York. Three other indictments followed.

Mr. Trump spent close to $60 million on legal and investigation-related costs — which included his lawyers, a document-production company and an expert witness in Trump’s New York civil fraud case.


$104.2 million

in donations

Save

America PAC

MAGA

Super PAC

Trump 2024

Committee

MAGA

PAC

$11.3

million

$11.8 million

$42.3 million

$48.0

million

$59.3 million

in legal expenses


The New York Times
Early last year, Mr. Trump made a change to bring more money into Save America, the PAC that was paying his legal expenses. At first, one cent of every dollar he raised online went to Save America; the rest went to his 2024 campaign. But with Save America short of cash to pay lawyers, he increased that to 10 percent.

It was still not enough. By June 2023, Save America had less than $4 million on hand. In an unusual move, Mr. Trump asked his super PAC for a refund of the $60 million he had given just months earlier, so that Save America could continue paying for his legal expenses.

By the end of 2023, more than $42 million had been returned from his super PAC to Save America.

2024
With his first trial looming — in the New York case related to hush-money payments to a porn star in 2016 — Mr. Trump’s legal costs continued to rise. He spent at least $9.7 million in January and February.


Save

America PAC

MAGA

Super PAC

Trump 2024

Committee

MAGA

PAC

$900,000

$10.0 million

$9.7

million

At least $9.7 million

in legal expenses


The New York Times
The more than $100 million in legal spending since leaving office does not include spending from Mr. Trump's 2024 campaign, which has not paid for his personal legal bills. The use of donations to pay for his personal lawyers has been allowed under federal rules.

To cover the ongoing legal costs, his super PAC refunded an additional $10 million in January and February. But there is now only $7.75 million left to refund. Save America had less than $4 million at the end of February, when accounting for unpaid debts.

The Trump team has said the Republican National Committee won’t pay his legal bills. But his new shared fund-raising agreement with the party directs a portion of donations to his Save America PAC before the party itself.

Still, the account paying Mr. Trump’s legal bills will most likely be out of money by summer at the current spending pace.

Then, Mr. Trump will have to decide: Whose money will he use to pay his lawyers?

Methodology

Data comes from filings made with the FEC since 2020 for: Trump’s 2020 campaign committee (which was renamed Make America Great Again PAC); Trump’s 2024 campaign committee; the leadership PAC Save America; the Make America Great Again Inc super PAC; the joint fund-raising committees Trump Make America Great Again Committee and Trump Save America Joint Fundraising Committee; the fundraising platform WinRed.

Legal costs were tallied from all expenditures matching the term “legal” and certain expenditures matching the terms “document” and “research,” which were determined to be related to ongoing legal cases and investigations. The figure for 2024 includes legal debts incurred by Save America in 2024, which were outstanding at the end of February.

Yearly donations were calculated online donations reported by WinRed for the 2020 and 2024 Trump campaigns, Trump-aligned leadership committees and Trump-controlled joint fund-raising committees.

Source: Federal Election Commision

Additional research by Andrew Fischer, Bea Malsky and Rachel Shorey.

Correction: March 29, 2024
An earlier version of this article misstated the subject of House hearings related to Donald Trump in 2022. The House held public hearings on the Jan. 6 riot, not impeachment hearings, in 2022.

No wonder lawyers want to work for this POS. The American public is paying his bills. An endless resource for them.

Jc

Somebody please make sure I’m getting this right. Everybody is focused on the dollar amount, but Trump was actually misrepresenting the total square footage of his properties to secure certain loan amounts, correct?

So if a property was say, 15,000 square feet, but he stated it was 30,000 sq ft to get a larger loan, that’s what he was doing?

That’s fraud, right?

It’s only fraud if you have a “D” attached to your name according to GOPers. But yeah fraud, it’s a white collar crime punishable up to 30 years of imprisonment according to the FBI. But that’s fake news according to GOPers. Just watch.

It was enough to merit fraud via summary judgment.

There is an argument as far as damages go that the loans were paid off in full, but the counter argument to that, from what I’m seeing, is that the higher valued collateral also served to lower interest rates on the loans, which is a big no-no.

Saying an 11k sq. foot apartment is over 30k sq. feet is obviously falsifying loan documents which clearly constitutes fraud. Falsifying loan documents in and of itself constitutes fraud.

10,996 sq ft.
There was over 200 different instances from the filing where they say trump and the other defendants did something wrong. That was one of them.

I snipped a few paragraphs from the AG Filing on some other ones. There also is an article at the end of the filing on Seven Springs, another property he based the value on "future" possibilities that he never was able to complete

From the AG Filing;

They also issued statements that were in blatant violation of generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP) in the United States, despite representing that the statements were prepared in accordance with these principles. They ignored the most basic rules and standards for financial reporting, including:

Representing that Mr. Trump had cash on hand that he did not;
Ignoring critical restrictions that would significantly lower property values when setting valuations;
Changing the methodology used to value properties from year to year, without reason or notice;
Using vastly different methods to value different properties even in the same year; and
Including intangible items, such as brand premiums, when calculating an asset’s value, despite representing in the statements that such items were not included.
Values of Properties and Other Assets Presented in the Statements Were Fraudulent, Misleading, and Not Presented in Accordance with GAAP

In the 214-page complaint, which is the culmination of our investigation that included more than 65 witness interviews and review of millions of pages of documents, OAG lays out dozens of examples of this fraudulent activity and how Mr. Trump and the Trump Organization routinely and intentionally misvalued assets to further enrich Mr. Trump. The complaint includes fraudulent conduct across more than 23 different properties and other assets owned by Mr. Trump and the Trump Organization. Some examples of this misconduct include:

Trump Tower Triplex:

Valuations of this property relied on objectively false numbers to calculate property values. For example, Mr. Trump’s own triplex apartment in Trump Tower was valued as being 30,000 square feet when it was 10,996 square feet. As a result, in 2015 the apartment was valued at $327 million in total, or $29,738 per square foot. That price was absurd given the fact that at that point only one apartment in New York City had ever sold for even $100 million, at a price per square foot of less than $10,000, and that sale was in a newly built, ultra-tall tower. In 30 year-old Trump Tower, the record sale at that time was a mere $16.5 million at a price of less than $4,500 per square foot.

Trump Park Avenue:

This property is included as an asset on Mr. Trump’s Statement of Financial Condition from 2011 to 2021 with values ranging between $90.9 million and $350 million. Unsold residential condominium units owned by Mr. Trump or the Trump Organization represented the lion’s share of reported value for this property (in excess of 95% in some years). Reported values of the unsold residential units of the Trump Park Avenue building were significantly higher than the internal valuations used by the Trump Organization for business planning and failed to account for the fact that many units were rent stabilized. For example, an outside, bank-ordered appraisal in 2010 valued the 12 rent-stabilized at $750,000 total. Yet, in the 2011 and 2012 statements, the rent-stabilized apartments at Trump Park Avenue were valued as market rate for nearly $50 million total. In July 2020, the Trump Organization received an appraisal with a value of $84.5 million but on the 2020 Statement the Trump Organization valued Trump Park Avenue at $135.8 million.

40 Wall Street:

The Trump Organization owns a ground lease at 40 Wall Street, meaning it holds a leasehold interest in the land and buildings on the land, but pays rent to the owner. The Trump Organization received a bank-ordered appraisal for the commercial property at 40 Wall Street that calculated a value for the property of $220 million as of November 1, 2012. Yet in the statement that year and the next year (2013), 40 Wall Street was valued at $527 million and $530 million—more than twice the value calculated by the independent, professional appraisers. Even more egregiously, those increased valuations were attributed to information obtained from the same professional appraiser who valued the building at just over $200 million.

In 2015, the Trump Organization replaced the existing loan on the building with a loan from Ladder Capital Finance (working with Mr. Weisselberg’s son, a director there). The Ladder loan was approved based in part on an inflated appraisal prepared by Cushman & Wakefield. Ultimately, the final appraisal for the loan came to a valuation of $540 million through a number of unreasonable adjustments, including reducing costs and changing the assumptions concerning the ground lease. Even this increase was not enough for Mr. Trump and the Trump Organization. The 2015 statement, which was compiled in June, valued the building at $735.4 million — over 35% higher than the already inflated $540 million Cushman appraisal of that same date which the company knew about.

Vornado Partnership:

Mr. Trump’s statements misrepresented his holdings of cash, cash equivalent, and marketable securities. Most notably, for several years, included in his “cash” were the amounts in the Vornado Partnership Interests in which Mr. Trump had a minority stake and did not control. In some years these restricted funds accounted for almost one-third of all the cash reported by Mr. Trump. For example, they accounted for $24 million of the total $76 million in cash reported for 2018. Mr. Trump was well aware of the restricted and limited nature of his 30% interest because he personally took part in extensive, contentious litigation regarding these partnerships in which control over partnership-held cash and partnership business choices were expressly addressed.

Clubs:

The statements do not list separate values for each of Mr. Trump’s club facilities. Instead, the values for those properties are lumped together into a single figure. This was done intentionally to conceal significant swings in the value attributed to individual clubs and to conceal the methods used to arrive at those values. This lump sum figure was by far the largest asset value on Mr. Trump’s statement of financial condition every year. Mr. Trump and the Trump Organization employed various deceptive schemes in valuing the clubs to inflate their values.

Mar-a-Lago:
This property was valued as high as $739 million based on the false premise that it was unrestricted property and could be developed and sold for residential use, even though Mr. Trump himself signed deeds donating his residential development rights, sharply restricting changes to the property, and limiting the permissible use of the property to a social club. In reality, the club generated annual revenues of less than $25 million and should have been valued at closer to $75 million.
Trump Aberdeen:
The valuation of this golf course in Aberdeen, Scotland assumed 2,500 homes could be developed when the Trump Organization had obtained zoning approval to develop less than 1,500 cottages and apartments, many of which were expressly identified as being only for short-term rental. The $267 million value attributed to those 2,500 homes accounted for more than 80% of the total $327 million valuation for Aberdeen on the 2014 Statement of Financial Condition.
Trump National Golf Club, Jupiter:
Mr. Trump purchased this golf course in Jupiter Florida for $5 million. Less than a year later, Mr. Trump valued the same property at $62 million on the 2013 statement, a markup of 1,100%. For every year from 2013 to 2020, virtually all of the value attributed to Jupiter was fraudulently overstated due to several deceptive methods and assumptions. The golf course was valued using a fixed-asset approach even though that was not an acceptable method for valuing an operating golf course. The bulk of the value in that fixed-asset approach was based on the use of an inflated purchase price from the purported assumption of “refundable” membership liabilities. Mr. Trump claimed to have paid $46 million for the club, consisting of $5 million in cash he actually paid and $41 million in assumed membership liabilities. In the statements, Mr. Trump did not disclose the inclusion of those inflated liabilities in the price of the club and in fact took the opposite position that his potential liability for those membership deposits was zero. Additionally, the Trump Organization overstated the value of this golf course by adding an additional 30% for the Trump brand in 2013 and 2014 and 15% from 2015 through 2020 – even though the statements disclaimed that any of the valuations included a brand premium.
False and Misleading Statements of Financial Condition Were Used to Secure and Maintain Financial Benefits on Favorable Terms

The statements were used to obtain and maintain favorable loans over at least an 11-year period. All told, the financial benefit realized from this scheme was approximately $250 million, including interest savings and transaction profits, because of the favorable loan terms they were able to obtain using his false and misleading statements.

Trump National Doral:

The Trump Organization executed a $150 million purchase and sale agreement for this property in 2011. Mr. Trump’s statements were used to secure a $125 million loan from Deutsche Bank and were regularly submitted to the bank to fulfill the financial reporting requirements of Mr. Trump as guarantor on the loan. In multiple instances, the loan agreement required that Mr. Trump certify the truth and accuracy of his statements as a condition of the guaranty and the continuing loan covenants.

Trump International Hotel & Tower, Chicago:

Since 2009, this property’s value has been excluded from the statements because, according to sworn testimony, Mr. Trump did not want to take a position that would conflict with his contention to tax authorities that the property had become worthless, and thus formed the basis of a substantial loss under the federal tax code. However, in 2012, using the building or its components as collateral, Mr. Trump and the Trump Organization obtained a $107 million loan on the building from Deutsche Bank. The loan received a $45 million expansion in 2014. Mr. Trump’s supposed net worth of $4 billion reflected on his statement was used to personally guarantee the initial loan at an interest rate approximately four percentage points lower than it would have been without his guaranty.

Trump Old Post Office, Washington, D.C.:

In 2013, the Trump Organization obtained a ground lease from the federal General Services Administration to redevelop this property into a luxury hotel. This project was captained by Ivanka Trump, and Mr. Trump’s statements were central to their effort to win the bid to redevelop this site. They were able to obtain a $170 million loan for construction from Deutsche Bank on much more favorable terms by personally guaranteeing the loans using Mr. Trump’s statements. The loan agreement required that Mr. Trump certify the accuracy of his statements annually and included a provision that made him guarantee that the materials provided to the bank to obtain the loan did not include any misleading information. Any misrepresentation on those statements would constitute a default under the terms of the loan. In May 2022, the Trump Organization sold the Old Post Office property for $375 million. As a result, Mr. Trump obtained more than $100 million in net profit, which was the result of the loan he was able to obtain by using his false and misleading statements.

https://apnews.com/article/trump-we...igation-d6a128161e52d1cea94d4ffb54d14ef0

All they really have are excuses and to cast blame on those who are holding him accountable for his criminal activity.

Isn't it kinda like that with every case where he's indicted?


All he and his minions know how to do is attack the lawyers, judges, juries and now family of the Judges.

S

Federal judge upholds verdict in E. Jean Carroll case and denies Trump’s motion for a new trial

A federal judge on Thursday upheld the verdict and award in E. Jean Carroll’s defamation case against former President Donald Trump and denied Trump’s motion for a new trial.

Judge Lewis Kaplan, in a written opinion, said Trump’s legal arguments are without merit. The judge also found that the punitive damages the jury awarded to Carroll “passes constitutional muster.”

Carroll, a former magazine columnist, alleged Trump raped her in a Bergdorf Goodman department store in the mid-1990s and then defamed her when he denied her claim. In a separate case, a jury last year found Trump liable for the sexual assault.

The second case stems from remarks Trump had made denying Carroll’s allegations in 2019. He was found liable for defamation last year, and a jury earlier this year ordered him to pay $83.3 million in punitive and compensatory damages.

Trump’s legal team had argued that the damages awarded to Carroll in the defamation case were excessive. Kaplan dismissed that argument in his opinion released Thursday.

“Mr. Trump’s malicious and unceasing attacks on Ms. Carroll were disseminated to more than 100 million people,” Kaplan wrote. “They included public threats and personal attacks, and they endangered Ms. Carroll’s health and safety.”

“The jury,” Kaplan added, “was entitled to conclude that Mr. Trump derailed the career, reputation, and emotional well-being of one of America’s most successful and prominent advice columnists and authors.”

Trump has maintained that he did not sexually assault Carroll, and in 2019, said that Carroll was not his “type.” Those denials formed the basis of the defamation lawsuit.

He sat in court for portions of the defamation trial, earning rebukes from the judge after he was heard making comments during Carroll’s testimony. As Carroll’s lawyers delivered their closing arguments, Trump abruptly and dramatically stood up and left the courtroom.

Kaplan referenced that episode in his opinion: “Mere minutes after (Carroll’s) counsel began her closing argument, Mr. Trump conspicuously stood and walked out of the courtroom for no apparent reason save to evidence his disapproval.”

Aside from the eye-popping monetary amount, the judgment brought another point into stark clarity: A jury of regular citizens – not the politicians or their appointees that Trump constantly claims mistreat him – held him accountable.

The judgment comes as Trump sits in another courtroom – this time, a criminal one – awaiting another jury of regular New Yorkers to decide his fate on charges that he falsified business records to cover up an affair ahead of the 2016 election.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/25/politics/federal-judge-upholds-e-jean-carroll-verdict/index.html