DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Israel at war again.

Not entirely. Was more piggybacking on what Swish said. Why just save face when you can save face and make money?

Edit: Iranian drone industry Link Based on that it looks like IRGC generals are actually in leadership positions of privately held companies that sell drones and related services to the Iranian government.

Yet Iran hasn't made a strike on Israel until Israel bombed their consulate. I sort if understand where you're coming from however. Much like the U.S. they supply weapons to other nations and groups who share their interests. So I can see where you may draw your conclusion from. I do not however think that can be based on this strike alone.

Doesn't seem like Israel is done yet. The war cabinet approved a "powerful response"

Very true... and then it seemed Iran was showing its people damage/fires from another event and saying it was damage in Israel.

Also, last night after the main wave was over, a batch of a couple dozen missiles were launched from Lebanon. Israel attacked northern Lebanon where they were launched from.

It won't be dark for a few more hours over there.
I don't like what I am seeing/hearing online that Israel is targeting Iran homeland nuke sites; that would not be an "in kind" response to the lame effort Iran put forth last night and definitely would escalate the situation.

US will not take part in retaliatory action against Iran, White House says

JERUSALEM/DUBAI/WASHINGTON, April 14 (Reuters) - President Joe Biden warned Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu the U.S. will not take part in a counter-offensive against Iran if Israel decides to retaliate for a mass drone and missile attack on Israeli territory overnight, a White House official said.

The threat of open warfare erupting between the arch Middle East foes and dragging in the United States has put the region on edge, triggering calls for restraint from global powers and Arab nations to avoid further escalation.

U.S. media reported earlier on Sunday that Biden had informed Netanyahu he would not participate in retaliatory action in a phone call overnight. The remarks were confirmed to Reuters by a White House official.

The U.S. will continue to help Israel defend itself, but does not want war, John Kirby, the White House's top national security spokesperson, told ABC's "This Week" program on Sunday.

Iran launched the attack over a suspected Israeli strike on its consulate in Syria on April 1 that killed top Revolutionary Guards commanders and followed months of clashes between Israel and Iran's regional allies, triggered by the war in Gaza.

However, the attack from more than 300 missiles and drones, mostly launched from inside Iran, caused only modest damage in Israel as most were shot down with the help of the U.S., Britain and Jordan.
An Air Force base in southern Israel was hit, but continued to operate as normal and a 7-year old child was seriously hurt by shrapnel. There were no other reports of serious damage.

Two senior Israeli ministers signalled on Sunday that retaliation by Israel is not imminent and it would not act alone.

"We will build a regional coalition and exact the price from Iran in the fashion and timing that is right for us," centrist minister Benny Gantz said ahead of a war cabinet meeting.

Defence Minister Yoav Gallant also said Israel had an opportunity to form a strategic alliance against "against this grave threat by Iran which is threatening to mount nuclear explosives on these missiles, which could be an extremely grave threat," he said. Iran denies seeking nuclear weapons.

Iranian army chief of staff Major General Mohammad Bagheri warned on television that "our response will be much larger than tonight's military action if Israel retaliates against Iran" and told Washington its bases could also be attacked if it helped Israel retaliate.

Iranian Foreign Minister Amir Abdollahian said Tehran had informed the United States its attack on Israel would be "limited" and for self defence and that regional neighbours had also been informed of its planned strikes 72-hours in advance.

A Turkish diplomatic source said Iran had informed Turkey in advance of what would happen.

Iran said the attack was aimed at punishing "Israeli crimes" but it now "deemed the matter concluded."

Russia, China, France and Germany as well as Arab states Egypt, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates urged restraint and the U.N. Security Council was set to meet at 4 p.m. ET (2000 GMT) on Sunday.

"We will do everything to stop a further escalation," German Chancellor Olaf Scholz said on a visit to China. "We can only warn everyone, especially Iran, against continuing this way."

Turkey also warned Iran it did not want further tension in the region.

ESCALATION

Analysts debated how far Iran's attack was calibrated to cause genuine devastation in Israel, or to save face at home after vows of revenge while avoiding a major new war.

"I think the Iranians took into consideration the fact that Israel has a very, very strong multi-layer anti-missile system and they probably took into consideration that there will not be too many casualties," said Sima Shine, a former senior Mossad official at the Institute for National Security Studies in Tel Aviv.

But if Iran was hoping for a muted response, like with its missile attacks on U.S. forces in Iraq after the killing of Guards commander Qassem Soleimani in 2020, she warned "I don't think Israel sees it this way".

On Saturday Iran's Revolutionary Guards seized an Israel-linked cargo ship in the Strait of Hormuz, one of the world's most important energy shipping routes, underscoring the risks to the world economy of a wider conflict.

Some flights were suspended in countries across the region and share prices fell in stock markets in Israel and Gulf states.

The war in Gaza, which Israel invaded after an attack by Iran-backed Hamas on Oct. 7, has spread to fronts with Iran-aligned groups in Lebanon, Syria, Yemen and Iraq.

Iran's most powerful ally in the region, the Lebanese Shi'ite group Hezbollah fired rockets at an Israeli base overnight. Israel said it struck a Hezbollah site deep inside Lebanon on Sunday morning.
Yemen's Houthis, who have been firing missiles at ships in the Red Sea in what they say is support for the Palestinians, called Iran's attack legitimate.

The Oct. 7 attack in which Israel says 1,200 were killed and 253 taken hostage, along with internal discontent with the government and international pressure over the war in Gaza, form the backdrop to Netanyahu's decisions over a response. At least 33,000 people have been killed in Gaza since Israel began its military offensive, according to authorities in the enclave.

The Israeli prime minister has for years advocated a tough military line against Iran, pushing the United States for harder action over Tehran's nuclear programme and its backing for Hezbollah, Hamas and other groups in the region.

In Israel, although there was alarm at the first direct attack from another country in more than three decades, the mood was in contrast to the trauma after the Hamas-led attack on Oct.7.

"I think we've been given license to respond now. I mean it was a major attack from Iran... I imagine Israel will respond and may be over quickly and get back to normal life," said Jeremy Smith, 60.

In Iran, state television showed small gatherings in several cities celebrating the attack, but in private some Iranians were worried about Israel's response.

"Iran gave Netanyahu a golden opportunity to attack our country. But we, the people of Iran, will bear the brunt of this conflict," said Shima, a 29-year-old nurse, from Tehran.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...es-fears-wider-conflict-grow-2024-04-14/

It's also not uncharted territory for Israel. Back in 1981 they launched a raid against nuclear facility in Iraq. The raid "established the Begin Doctrine, which explicitly stated the strike was not an anomaly, but instead "a precedent for every future government in Israel". Israel's counter-proliferation preventive strike added another dimension to its existing policy of deliberate ambiguity, as it related to the nuclear weapons capability of other states in the region."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...on-Iran-launched-350-missile-attack.html

Biden is so weak. The rest of the G7 have a spine at least.

Biden is a coward. Iran is the head of the snake in the middle east. They fund the terrorist organizations that cause Israel many issues. They fund Hamas, they fund Hezbollah, and the Houthis. I hope Israel blasts their nuclear weapons sites. If Iran was to complete a nuke they would not hesitate to take Israel out or hit us here in the states.

How is he a coward? For not wanting to escalate the conflict?

Iran launched a retaliatory strike in response to Israel killing their general. Their counter strike failed spectacularly.

If Israel retaliates to the retaliation, it’s not a counter strike; it’s escalation. You conservatives clown Biden for apparently getting us into conflicts, then out of nowhere claim he’s too cowardly to engage in conflicts. Pick a narrative.

Imagine being so weak and clueless that you believe not responding to a failed counter strike is cowardly.

Wow, OUR Commander-in-Chief, President Joe Biden, sure put on a master class in defending our allies and keeping things from escalating out of hand this past weekend. Meanwhile senile Trump slurred and made crap up all through his speech in PA. This is what presidents do, they don’t cower to strong men trash like Putin, who is in bed with IRAN. If you support Putin, Trump’s puppet master, then you ARE traitorous trash. Have a good whatever, until I pop in agian.

Some see the Iranian missile attack as the escalation. Taking out the general is seen by some as retaliation for his coordination of terrorist attacks. It's a matter of perspective.

Unfortunately, Netanyahu seems much more concerned with not looking like a coward than Biden.

...what conflict did Biden get us in?

He's the placating President. He sends money so he doesn't actually have to make a hard decision and join a conflict.

He does just enough to let conflicts drag on.

He's the spend money to not actually solve problems President. Spend money so someone can keep making money. I'm not sure it's cowardly. It does seem somewhat ineffectual, though. At least as far as the conflicts themselves are concerned.

Sadly, it seems an ineffectual President is the best we can hope for these days.

I'm not saying Biden should go fire and brimstone or invade Iran, but what word would you use to describe him?

Another false statement. But please continue your BS. I’m grabbing my popcorn and headed over to watch the GOPer leading candidate choice in a criminal trial for falsifying documents about paying off a porn star he screwed over and over to stay silent about it.

That’s the GOPer choice. But Biden Biden Biden. He so bad.

Yeah, sending in our troops would be such a great idea. Escalating a war in the middle east is such a wonderful idea. How quickly people forget.


Thus far I've seen zero evidence that Iran coordinated any terrorist attacks on Israel. It's true they have supplied weaponry but nothing indicates they coordinated any attacks.

Anyone who doesn't see Israels bombing of the Iran consulate as an escalation isn't being objective.

Iran made sure to telegraph this move. They allowed everyone to be ready to defend it. That's not how anyone trying to inflict as much damage as possible would have approached this.

We are actually one of less than a hand full of nations that helped Israel fight off the attack by Iran.

If you actually believe that trying to dissuade a war in the middle east from happening makes someone look cowardly I think you've been drinking too much of the kool aid.

What's false about it?

Have we not sent aid packages to Israel and Ukraine? Did he not sign the legislation?

You might not like the characterization. That doesn't make it not true.

Edit: You added more after I replied and of course unchecked the mark as edited box. It still applies no matter how much you try to deflect by pointing at Trump. Pointing at how bad Trump is has no effect on Biden's actions or lack thereof.

We…US. is not one person. And what would you have Biden do veto aid to our allies that was approved in the house and senate?

No one said it was. Yet, he's the figurehead/"QB" of "US." He gets the credit, he gets the blame. That's the job. He's allowed to veto/try to call an audible. He's the one that signs at the end/hikes the ball.

You don't have to like it. I don't have to like it. That doesn't change the facts.

Edit: Another lovely post-post edit presented as original. It doesn't matter what I would have him do. That doesn't change what he did.

I never claimed it was bad/wrong here.

I never said to send troops to Iran. I explicitly stated not to invade Iran. Nice straw man

You not seeing something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm not saying it does, but your lack of seeing it from Tennessee is hardly a strong argument.

Who claimed it was objective? I wrote that how the missile attack was seen was subjective. Most things are seen subjectively. The idea that anyone looking at what happened is objective is pretty much BS. Most people carry their biases with them.

Iran may know their general got caught. Yet, they can't admit it publicly. They had to "retaliate" to maintain the charade that they were unaware of his involvement with proxy combatants and to "save face" whether true or not. Yet, they also didn't want to get bombed back to the Stone Age, so they, perhaps, essentially held a training exercise not designed to do maximum damage.

I wrote that cowardly was probably not the right word. Somehow you twist that to me believing Biden's cowardly. Talk about not being objective.

You admitting you can't say it does exist means much more than my geographic location.


Oh they're not being objective but they should be. A consulate by definition says that when Israel attacked the Iranian consulate it was a direct attack on Iran.....

A consulate is the place in a city where foreign government officials work and looks after all the people there who are from his or her own country.


I hope everyone understands that pulling out some theory out of the air with no basis in facts to support it is why so many people buy into false information and conspiracies. There isn't an ounce of evidence to support anything you said in that quote.


So you admit that was the wrong word and then blame me for pointing out what you said?


You do realize that I based my comment on something there is at least some evidence of rather than the off the wall "may know" theory you concocted with zero evidence to support it, correct?

Read up. I didn't just pull the theory out of thin air.

NYT: Iranian Generals Killed in Syria Link

Edit: The difference between our approaches is that I admit that I don't know everything. I write what I think and am clear that it's just what I think. You seem to think you are always right, especially when you aren't. Then you make straw man arguments.

I saw nothing in your source that would indicate that Iran coordinated the attack of Israel by Hamas. I saw nothing that indicated they coordinated the the effort in Syria to help keep Bashar Assad in power. Yes they gave support for it. They aided the side that fought to keep him in power. But none of that has anything to do with Israel nor shows they initiated that fight much less coordinated it.

I don't nor would I ever debate that Iran has backed and supported the factions that have been at odds with Israel. Hamas, Hezbollah and maybe even the Houthis. I've however have not seen any evidence that would in any way support that Iran had a hand in helping coordinate the attack against Israel on Oct. 7th.

So it's not as if I don't see why Israel would conduct such a strike but making some claim that entertains Iran helped coordinate the Hamas attack on Israel is a reach of gigantic proportions. What I also find hard to believe is that this isn't seen as an escalation in the conflict. Whether one considers the action proper or not, up until that point in time no direct attack on Israel had been conducted by Iran. This was the first time that either nation conducted an attack on their counterpart. Whether you consider Israel as being in the right or in the wrong that is most certainly escalating the situation.

I would like for you to explain how "I think I'm right" here? You pulled a theory out of thin air and I'm simply pointing that out. I don't know exactly what happened. The only difference is I'm not making up some concocted theory with nothing to base it on. All I've said is that "I've seen no evidence that supports your theory". And thus far there isn't any.

There's no need in you getting all upset because you can't support your theory. It is what it is.

He already looks like a tyrant with regards to Gaza. I don’t get your question as I was responding to Day, not you.

I really don’t know what to say to the rest of your post, as it amounts to petty insults toward Biden and misinformation on his strategy.

It's a question. What's so hard to understand about it? It was in response to both you and Day. It's not trying to contradict you. It's an attempt to look at the topic from a different/multiple perspectives. To look at the actual actions and outcomes instead of the narratives each side has about them.

They're not petty insults. They're depressing observations from a different perspective than your own.

What word would you use to describe Biden?

Placating seems a pretty accurate one. The definition is "intended to make someone less hostile." He wants to help Ukraine without angering Russia. He wants to de-escalate tensions in the Middle East.

The actions were what they were. Both conflicts are still going on.

Maybe they are the right actions. Yet, the conflicts are still happening. It is what it is. I'm just trying to look beyond both sides' narratives.

The obvious answer is no U.S. president can control or dictate what other nations do. He can apply pressure and make public statements but not actually dictate what they decide to do. I do not think Biden advocating, and when we can supplying arms for Ukraine to fight against Russia does not anger Russia. Quite the opposite in fact. It does not have that impact any more than Iran arming Hezbollah with arms to fight Israel accomplishes not angering Israel.

I had no idea that advocating nations in the middle east find a solution besides an all out war in the region was a "depressing observation". What "side" thinks an all out war in the middle east is a better solution?

Oh look more straw men.

The fact that the actions seem to have been ineffectual as both conflicts are still ongoing is depressing. Perhaps, you enjoy seeing death and destruction continuously in the news. I do not.

Honestly, I think Putin was more upset by the "crazy SOB" comment than by us sending support. The longer Ukraine fights, the more Ukrainians he can get rid of. Plus, he can "recycle" the scrap. Raw material might very well be more valuable to him than people. People he can replace. Natural resources are finite. It seems that is how Putin's mind works.

Biden is obviously weak. "Dont" doesnt scare anyone. Iran did what they wanted to anyways. They blew him off.

Biden is also stupid. He broadcast to the world that he doesnt have Israel's back if they retaliate. You NEVER broadcast your war plans to the enemy. Biden is a laughing stock. It makes me think he was pandering to his base. Those hamassholes hate Joe no matter what he does. They wont vote for him.

The POTUS, who already pulled us out of one war, is broadcasting to the world a call for deescalation between Iran and Israel.

Only to right wingers is that considered a bad thing.

He is broadcasting to the world that he doesnt have his allys back. The rest of G7 said they will support Israel. Biden is a weak joke. Iran will only be more imboldened now.

Just like his weak ass response when the houthis killed the American soldiers. He did NOTHING but play whack a mole for a few days.

He sucks. He has no leadership skills and he is so weak.

Yeah we can talk about what a crappy job he did pulling out of Afghanastan. Americans DIED. Friendlies DIED. People were literally clinging to the outside of the planes as they took off. He left all the weapons behind for the Taliban to have. Biden is incompetant.

That’s what she said

Nothing will kill more people in Ukraine than denying them the proper weaponry to defend itself against a Russian invasion.

As for Eve's crazy as per usual rant, it is the U.S. that supplied them with the iron dome defense system that shot down all of those drones and missiles that were launched by Iran. It was the U.S. that shot down around 80 drones before they ever reached Israel. In her world not agreeing to help engage in an offensive war is a bad thing. Anyone supporting actions that will lead to yet another large scale war in the middle east is a certified idiot.

Weapons are only as good (or bad) as the people using them. Ukraine needs more good soldiers. If we're supporting the large scale warfare route, how to best achieve that, I don't know.

So if anyone supporting actions leading to war in the Middle East is an idiot, then what is anyone that is supporting action that perpetuates large scale war in Ukraine? The Middle East has pretty much been in a perpetual state of "war" since before most of us were alive. This is just the most recent intensification/battle. I think you and those you imply are idiots both have a tendency to think of things as simplified to a point that is out of proportion with reality.

It'd be great if there were no conflict in the Middle East. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be an actual option. Does the question become which less bad option do we support? Do we support our long time allies or the people that love to shout death to America? (I dislike these "simplified" "questions," too. But, I am trying to put my thoughts in a way that you can work with.)

Honestly, I don't know what we should do. I hate a lot of what Israel has been doing. Yet, if people's stated goal (or they support people whose stated goal) was to obliterate my country and they supported and perpetrated terrorist acts against my country, I probably wouldn't feel a ton of mercy towards them, either. Intellectually, sure. Emotionally, as explosions and gunfire and blood and death abound where you can breathe and taste it, I'd probably be understandably pissed. If someone helped plan the kidnapping and killing of a dozen of your and your friends' kids, you probably wouldn't want them to get away with it. With all the surrounding death, you probably wouldn't be in the most rational state. Unfortunately, that region of the world seems to be occupied/"led"/"controlled" by people who are largely irrational. The "mob mentality" appears to be at the wheel.

Oh dear Lord. Either a nation can better defend itself and cut their casualties when they are properly armed or not. Either more people get killed when they lack the proper weaponry or not.

As far as soldiers go in Ukraine their people aren't even draft eligible until they're 25 years old.

As far as Israel goes it seems some have convinced themselves that innocent women and children are the same as Hamas. As has been shown over and over again Israel has the weaponry to strategically target the enemy. If you don't beleive that just look at the strike that took place killing the people from WCK. Each vehicle hit with precision at different points in the convoy and no other damage. They were precision strikes. There was and is no need or legitimate reasons to be using 2000 lb. dumb bombs in highly residential areas. Starving all of those women and children is actually criminal.

The denial of humanitarian assistance as a crime under international law

30-09-1999 Article, International Review of the Red Cross, No. 835, by Christa Rottensteiner

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/article/other/57jq32.htm

In our very own nation we often times disagree with the policy of our leaders and refuse to support who ever may be in power at the time. Depending on your politics may help determine which side and which leaders you refuse to support. That doesn't mean you don't support the people of our country or the country itself.

This is no different. You can support Israel, their right to defend themselves and their right to wipe out Hamas without supporting Netanyahu and some of the inhumane ways he has conducted this war.

I can’t help but smile about all the BS convo’s I’ve dodged on this issue. I’d like to help Pit and Fate bring peace to the middle east. Send the hard right Jews to live with Pit, and the GAZA protestors to live with fate. Those two guys know everything, they can sway minds and win hearts…

I told you all, doesn’t matter what we think, BB is gonna do what BB is gonna do. He knows the US will NEVER stop being an ally. And I still don’t care what happens in GAZA because HAMAS in GAZA is homegrown. Sorry for the innocent lives lost or devastated, but it’s out of our hands decision wise. Out of Joe’s too, to an extent.

This is just another issue weaponized by the right. We all know the right couldn’t care less about actual people.

I say starving civilians is wrong. And you?

I say you’re right, and hopefully those starving and the leaders they’ve supported for decades will take a lesson from all of this instead of acting like they’ve done no wrong.

But don’t look for sympathy from me, I’d glass most of the middle east and Asia if I made calls like this. Good thing reasonable people like Joe Biden are on the job. We are small fries and have zero say in how this pans out no matter how much you dwell on it. Me, I don’t like it but I know I’m not changing anything by driving myself nuts over it. I also don’t like the pro Hamas crap here, anymore than I like the pro Putin crap. Tlaib can fade into history as far as I’m concerned, just like the 2A crowd, MAGA dolts, anti-vaxxers, and all things Trump. AOC is the only squad member I truly like.

The only thing I hope happens out of this Israeli war, is that the government of Israel moves center and HAMAS goes away. Other than that, I don’t think about it much.