Good. If we can see if DTR can be part of the future or be done with this conversation entirely... I'm on board.
Cincinnati is one of the worst defenses in the NFL and just lost DE Sam Hubbard for the year. As of late, our OL has played pretty decently. So with all of that combined, I don't think DTR will play poorly. But crazier things have happened.
Not trying to sound the same about him as Watson, but he doesn't have as many excuses as he usually does when he starts. He should be prepared and he's got a mostly-intact cast of characters around him.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
What percent of NFL Draft picks make it? Having already been in the select 0.01% of the top 1.6% of the top 7.3% of the nation, the chosen players might be dismayed to learn that only 30% of those drafted will ever make it onto an NFL roster.Apr 25, 2024
That's for all y'all who seem to think most draft picks should make the roster, be starters, be all pro, or make the Hall Of Fame.
THE FACT is 70 percent of draft picks don't make it the first few years.
The one argument I'd make is that I think we can all agree that the Browns are partially responsible for dragging that number down.
WRONG bro
since 2020 we have had 37 total draft picks 27 are still with the team 5 are with other teams 5 are out of football
84 percent of our draft picks since 2020 are still in the NFL
and that is WITHOUT us having A 1st round pick in 3 of 5 years a 2nd round pick in two of those years
Without a franchise QB it doesn’t matter what other Browns draft picks are still here or still in the NFL. The one and only thing the Browns have desperately needed since the return is a top tier franchise QB. They had one in Mayfield but opted for a sexual predator. Big mistake.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
Cincy has a porous defense to be sure. But the Browns have nothing to play for vs the Bengals . The Bengals believe it or not still have playoff hopes Sorry but DTR isn't putting up big offensive numbers or points Vs the Bengals. He is very limited as a QB. He can't push The ball downfield. The question is can the Browns stop the Bengals offense,?
Starting DTR is a tank move for sure, we all know he's not the future and is nothing more than a 3rd string qb. At this point I don't care, it's probably the best move as it will guarantee a 3-14 finish.
I just hate it for Jeudy, with Winston he was going to carry tons of momentum into next year as our #1. Say goodbye to those elite numbers with DTR.
Well ya never know psyde, DTR might be serviceable until we draft a guy, or do whatever the FO is going to do with the QB position. We can’t keep trotting out Mr. Turnover. After JW’s third INT in their end zone, Jeudy’s body language WTF WAS THAT? said it all. Jerry will be fine.
We can’t draft talents. We can’t keep talents. We don’t know how to develop talents. We don’t even know how to find them.
I'll ask you a similar question that I asked another poster. If the FO isn't drafting or finding talent to begin with how can you expect the coaching staff to develop it? On one hand you say the Browns can't draft or find talent then claim it's also the coaching staffs fault for not developing the talent this FO is not providing them with?
You raise a some very good questions.
Almost all of our biggest talents where drafted before Berry started as a GM. Am I wrong?
Can we with a straight face say that our coaching team have developed Myles Garrett since he arrived to Cleveland? Wasn't he already considered to be elite when we drafted him? He's from what I can see just a physical freak who wins most of his duels because of his superior strength and speed but technically I'm not so sure? Help me out. IMHO could any coach succeed with having that sort of physical talent to their disposal. What can possible go wrong?
The same goes for Nick Chubb. Another guy with superior physical attributes who has great instinct when and where to run. IMO that it's more of a natural ability than a result of excellent coaching. Don't get me wrong, off course good coaching is part of it but maybe not neccessery the main reason for Nick being such a great RB.
Denzel Ward can be a little bit reckless when he tackles but he also is a great athlete with great instincts when and where to defend. How much of his success has been coached and how much is because he's so talented?
Stefanski got a lot of credit for Bakers development but when you look at it closely Mayfield have succeed with almost any OC. He played great with Kitchens, last season he was great with Canales and this season he's killing it with Liam Cohen. Maybe it's time to accept that much of Bakers success is because he's a good QB. Not because Kevin is a QB guru?
Since 2020 the Browns haven't drafted any elite talent at the same level as Garrett, Chubb or Mayfiled. Or?
Maybe I'm missing someone but maybe you can tell me who we have developed from a being a talent into elite since Berry started as a GM? How many FA players has got better with Stefanski? I'm curious because I can't recall anyone that had made his best season with us. Maybe Jerry Jeudy?
I was referring to Deshaun Watson when I wrote - "we don't even know how to find them".
When we decided to let go of Baker and go after the best QB available then our FO totally misjudged who Watson was on every measurable level.
When many Browns supporter defend the FO with saying that nobody saw his decline coming they are wrong. Many of his problems was already visible in Houston. He quit his team and his team mates despite having a multi million dollar contract. His conflict with the Texans owners was before he came to Cleveland. His off the field short comings with all theses women where well known before we traded for him. There was reports on internet and in local newspapers in Houston already in 2021 about his limitations in reading defense and that he was slow with his decision making before throwing the ball
The problem for the Browns where that nobody wanted to listen to any negativity at that time.
What's your verdict about our FO? Good? Great? Or maybe below average?
I wish we had a QB who by this point has thrown for 3600 yards with 32 TDs and a 104 passer rating. Why can’t we draft a QB like that?
Would be nice, huh?
Hoiw about a guy who has thrown 60 TD over this season and last, with 3 games still left this year?
Yeah, if only we could draft that kinda guy.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
This is a huge career opportunity for DTR. Perhaps the only legit one he'll ever get towards proving he can be an NFL starter. This team will have a high draft pick, is reeling from Watson's lack of effectiveness, and this will be an opportunity to tell the FO that there is no need to get a QB in the early rounds. NFL players often never get handed the chance to TAKE OVER the position they are ask to play. This is one of those chances for DTR.
This is not to say I'm optimistic he can capitalize on it, but it's rare to have such a wide open career opportunity like the one DTR is getting here.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
I’ve been very supportive of this FO since they’ve arrived and I’ve been happy with most of Berrys moves but I totally agree that the move for Watson was absolutely a foreseeable error. Totally unforced. Many of us were cranking on about it being a terrible move from the first rumblings. It was like a bad dream.
Look, this goes for any business you’re in, lie down with dogs, you get fleas. Sometimes you have to hold your nose when you have no other options and you roll the dice… but we had a QB, a guy that led us to our first playoff victory since the ice age and for some reason I may never understand half of Cleveland and apparently the majority of decision makers in Barea, thought he sucked. Or just wasn’t good enough for us.
THIS is what I’m most concerned with. Sure, It’s about locating and identifying talent, yes. We’ve been hit and miss. Also about identifying and acknowledging unacceptable risks, yep. Colossal whiff. Lastly, and the part I’m concerned we just may not have the fortitude for, you have the stick it out and commit to developing the seed you’ve got with potential and not get all “grass is greener”.
It’s a different kind of risk, the risk of holding rather than switching. The browns are fantastic switchers. Just look at that QB & coach list since 2000. How many of our players have gone on to great things elsewhere. And being fair, most of the switches were perfectly justified. But this one was so utterly and egregiously unjustified it’s absurd and frankly calls into question our very ability to “hold”, to develop and nurture a quality prospect should one fall in our lap and not listen the (frankly pretty stupid and irrational) public and press and go with your soberest and wisest judgement. This was the opposite of sober and wise.
The Steelers are sometimes guilty of over-holding. They are rarely guilty of grass-is-greener, over-switching errors. This causes them some problems but waaaaay less than us. The Mayfield for Watson debacle should be tattooed on everyone’s forehead that was driving that decision. At least a framed visual depiction hung in each of their offices. It’s almost unforgivable. But perhaps it’s a lesson learned as the pinnacle of over-switching errors.
Having said that, I think it might actually be a mistake to toss Berry and gang. Has he and the other decision makers learned the right lessons here? Like I said, I’ve liked a good number of his picks. I like (don’t love) Ski as a coach. But have they learned? Are they “nurturable”? We have no ability to judge that other than trying to decipher from public statements. But switching means a total reboot, start from scratch with all the unknowns and low success probability risks that come with that.
It doesn’t sound like we’re cleaning house and I appreciate that. But I have no idea how they’re going to get out of the current mess. Maybe sign cousins to a 2yr deal? Chubb looks done but I’d sign him to a 1yr deal. We’ve got a bunch of other vet deals coming up. Hard decisions to be made. Little foreseeable daylight for another year or two. Just be sober and wise in your decision making please.
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
I just hate it for Jeudy, with Winston he was going to carry tons of momentum into next year as our #1. Say goodbye to those elite numbers with DTR.
If we were at all worried about carrying momentum into 2025, then we wouldn't be considering DTR... and if we were somehow trying to get Watson back in there, then I'd definitely agree with you.
Hindsight, Jeudy was clearly the main player being hurt by forcing Watson out there.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Now since 1999 when have we had a better front office that produced a better record that our current group.
2018 draft set the table for the Browns for the next few years...then the Harvard boys took over and claimed the results of John Dorsey's 2018 draft as their own draft success.
psstt your digging yourself a deeper hole.
Sashi was the gm that set up all the picks for the 2018 draft. Now here is a list of just who we drafted in the 3 years before AB took over.
Year Rnd Player 2018 1 Baker Mayfield 1 QB 2018 1 Denzel Ward 4 CB 2018 2 Austin Corbett 33 C 2018 2 Nick Chubb 35 RB 2018 3 Chad Thomas 67 DE 2018 4 Antonio Callaway105 WR 2018 6 Damion Ratley 175 WR 2018 6 Simeon Thomas 188 CB Year Rnd Player
GM..Sashi was fired on Dec 7, 2017, months before the 2018 draft took place..that would be the same year that Sashi's draftees went "WINLESS" for the entire 2017 season.
Dorsey was hired on Dec, 7, 2017. Dorsey's first full season as the Browns GM was 2018, when Dorsey's draft class won 7 games. The following year the Browns won 6 games and GM John Dorsey was fired.
Stefanski, Berry and the rest of the franchise walked into a situation where Dorsey's 2018 draftees entered their 3rd season, lead by QB Mayfield and RB Chubb, Dorsey's 2018 draft class helped the team qualify for the playoffs, defeating the Steelers in the wildcard round and losing the division to the Chiefs who lost the Super Bowl in 2020 to Tampa Bay.
You asked a lot of questions without providing any answers to those questions. As of now it appears you claim if a drafted player turns out to be great the coaching has nothing to do with it. If a player turns out to be bad it's all about how terrible the coaching is. Do I have that about right? That's the old having your cake and eating it too. It's nothing new in today's society but a one sided look at things has nothing to do with objectivity which seems to be sorely lacking in your post.
You can't blame the coaching on everything that's gone wrong while giving them no credit for what has went right in terms of player development. Well I guess you can because you just did. You're still claiming that the drafts have been miserable while somehow it's the coaching staffs job for not developing miserable talent.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
You can't blame the coaching on everything that's gone wrong while giving them no credit for what has went right in terms of player development.
Interested in who you give this coaching staff credit for developing.
Actually I'm not the one either giving them credit nor selectively not giving them credit. All I'm saying is you can't blame them for not developing some players who are doing great while giving them all the blame for players who didn't develop.
How do you think on one hand a poster can claim the FO is drafting like crap and not finding any talent while at the same time blaming the coaching staff for not developing crappy players with no talent? None of that makes any sense.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I cannot think of anyone that has really developed under this current regime. Diabate is playing well. Was he developed or should he have been getting playing time sooner?
I don't believe that everyone we have drafted are all crappy players that cannot be developed. I certainly think Delpit had tremendous talent and potential when drafted. Newsome should be better than he is - I think he is more suited for an outside Cb spot and we put him in the slot that hindered his development.
I guess I do believe that it can be a combination of both. We have drafted some bad, poor, decent, and good talent Regardless of where their talent level was when they came in, none have shown significant improvement.
The interesting thing is JOK I think he was an awesome college player As a rookie he significantly regressed, then has progressed. I think he is back to the level he was at in college. Does that count has developing a player?
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
You have a much more balanced approach to the topic. that's why I was addressing him and not you.
The only thing I think we actually disagree on is what you said about potential. I won't speak about this FO per say in terms of potential but overall that's why players are drafted in the first place. Especially in three first three rounds. However as we have seen even many of those high draft picks with great potential never reach that potential. It's up to whether the talent evaluators got it right in the first place and secondly whether the coaching staff can get that potential out of those players at the NFL level.
Saying things like "had tremendous talent and potential when drafted" or "I think he was an awesome college player" have very little meaning. For some reason JOK was still on the board at the Browns pick in the second round. I like yourself thought he should have been drafted higher and felt lucky he was still on the board.
But do you have any idea how many college players qualify to be included in "had tremendous talent and potential when drafted" or "I think he was an awesome college player" list who never made it in the NFL? There are reasons why some of them do and some of them don't.
Potential is meaningless unless an NFL coaching staff can translate that on the field of play. And the JOK question? It's because he was being played in a way that did not accentuate his skill set. As soon as Schwartz came in and changed his role as should have been done from day 1, his talent shined.
JOK is actually the perfect example of how much the coaching makes a difference between potential and reaching that potential.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I think we feel much the same way on what you say we disagree on. I am just to uninterested (lazy) to have written that all out
I think all players drafted have some level of talent and potential - otherwise they wouldn't have been drafted. I do agree that players taken in the top 3 rounds haver significantly more potential I agree that the "Potential is meaningless unless an NFL coaching staff can translate that on the field of play" And I agree that "JOK is actually the perfect example of how much the coaching makes a difference between potential and reaching that potential."
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
With DTR starting at QB it is clear the Browns are tanking remainder season.
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
With DTR starting at QB it is clear the Browns are tanking remainder season.
I disagree.
1, We have zero chance to do anything productive with the remainder of the season except evaluate the young players. I think we are just now acknowledging that
2, We don't need to tank We suck enough that we don't need to try to purposefully lose games Future loses will occur organically - we don't need to try to tank
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
You asked a lot of questions without providing any answers to those questions. As of now it appears you claim if a drafted player turns out to be great the coaching has nothing to do with it. If a player turns out to be bad it's all about how terrible the coaching is. Do I have that about right? That's the old having your cake and eating it too. It's nothing new in today's society but a one sided look at things has nothing to do with objectivity which seems to be sorely lacking in your post.
You can't blame the coaching on everything that's gone wrong while giving them no credit for what has went right in terms of player development. Well I guess you can because you just did. You're still claiming that the drafts have been miserable while somehow it's the coaching staffs job for not developing miserable talent.
I think you misunderstood a lot in my post.
I don’t blame all of the coaches for the lack of players development. That’s on the FO. They have drafted poorly. The coaching staff can only do so much if there isn’t enough talent to work with.
With DTR starting at QB it is clear the Browns are tanking remainder season.
I disagree.
1, We have zero chance to do anything productive with the remainder of the season except evaluate the young players. I think we are just now acknowledging that
2, We don't need to tank We suck enough that we don't need to try to purposefully lose games
Future loses will occur organically - we don't need to try to tank
DTR is 0% the answer at QB. If he was... he would have shown it by now.
Yep a 5th round pick playing in his 2nd season who has started 3 games is a totally finished project.
Now before anybody starts claiming I said he is a future Hall Of Famer. We have NO clue how DTR will end up for his career. He could end up as a starting NFL QB, a career backup, or he may be out of football in a few years. but holly hell He has not even had a chance yet in the NFL.
Now since 1999 when have we had a better front office that produced a better record that our current group.
2018 draft set the table for the Browns for the next few years...then the Harvard boys took over and claimed the results of John Dorsey's 2018 draft as their own draft success.
psstt your digging yourself a deeper hole.
Sashi was the gm that set up all the picks for the 2018 draft. Now here is a list of just who we drafted in the 3 years before AB took over.
Year Rnd Player 2018 1 Baker Mayfield 1 QB 2018 1 Denzel Ward 4 CB 2018 2 Austin Corbett 33 C 2018 2 Nick Chubb 35 RB 2018 3 Chad Thomas 67 DE 2018 4 Antonio Callaway105 WR 2018 6 Damion Ratley 175 WR 2018 6 Simeon Thomas 188 CB Year Rnd Player
GM..Sashi was fired on Dec 7, 2017, months before the 2018 draft took place..that would be the same year that Sashi's draftees went "WINLESS" for the entire 2017 season.
Dorsey was hired on Dec, 7, 2017. Dorsey's first full season as the Browns GM was 2018, when Dorsey's draft class won 7 games. The following year the Browns won 6 games and GM John Dorsey was fired.
Stefanski, Berry and the rest of the franchise walked into a situation where Dorsey's 2018 draftees entered their 3rd season, lead by QB Mayfield and RB Chubb, Dorsey's 2018 draft class helped the team qualify for the playoffs, defeating the Steelers in the wildcard round and losing the division to the Chiefs who lost the Super Bowl in 2020 to Tampa Bay.
Draft one in the 2nd or 3rd round that has the physical tools and hope we strike gold. Maybe sign a vet but that’s slim pickings. We really are in a mess. I honestly would hate to draft on in a later round because we have other needs. Again, what a mess!!!
I do not envy Berry or anyone else that becomes our GM.
We have DTR a fifth round pick. Winston and Zappe.
That is the dregs of the barrel.
The draft is looking like nothing more than risks. I am not sold on Sanders or Ward. That does not mean I could be wrong. I am not seeing either as top of the first round talent.
I would not take either in the top ten.
In fact the only guy I would gamble on is Milroe based upon his potential ceiling. Right now he is a guy who needs to be developed. He should not start for a year. So, that leaves 2025 with who at quarterback? A cast off from another team.
It would give strength to trading back and just trying to improve the roster overall.
Then it puts you into the 2026 draft not knowing where you will draft and who is worth drafting.
Right now other Milroe I don't see a quarterback I give two cents about. That includes the vets who could be available.
2025 will be another year with poor results. I don't see a winning season.
If we do not find a franchise quarterback in the draft we will not compete for anything other than trying desperately to win a few games.
Draft one in the 2nd or 3rd round that has the physical tools and hope we strike gold.
So the Tennessee Titans approach to getting an NFL QB?
In 2022 the Titans drafted Malik Wills in the third round.
In 2023 they drafted Will Levis in the second round.
Malik was traded to the Packers to play back-up for a 2025 7th round pick and Levis was just benched to be replaced with Mason Rudolph the former back-up QB for the Steelers who was eventually demoted to third string.
I'm not trying to say that can't work. But unless you have a GM with a track record of identifying good QB's your odds are greatly decreased. We don't have one of those and I find it unlikely Halsam could land such a talented former GM with that type of track record to come here.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Sashi's 2016 draft...Trading down to accumulate more draft picks doesn't produce results is the GM and his draft team are horrid when it comes to judging talent...for example 1st round pick Cory Colman, Shon Colman, Cody Kessler
Sure every now and then you find a gem in the mid to even late rounds.
However, it is a rarity and luck more than skill. Mostly even number one picks get ruined by going to teams who do not know how to develop quarterbacks. I watched Caleb Williams play. He has talent but he is getting drilled playing for the Bears.
Getting the opportunity to draft a quarterback high in the first round is not a gift. It is proof the team is the worst team in the NFL.
Drafting a quarterback high in the draft is a shot in the dark. You hope to hit the target. You do not know that you will.
Trevor Lawrence was considered a generational QB prospect. I don't see the Jags winning many games.
I totally understand the Browns going after Watson. I do because he was a proven player in the NFL and still a young player who should have been in his prime. It ended in disaster. He has been a total failure. Not average. Not good. A total failure.
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