DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Stefanski and Berry

You don’t have to be part of the decision making to use your common sense.
Is Stefanski’s role so restricted that he can’t have any opinion outside play calls and push his players to train harder?

Most of us on this forum didn’t have our own FO helping us but we still come to the conclusion after a few seconds that Watson was a bad trade.
One sentence from Stefanski had been enough.

“I’m highly skeptical…” and the trade would probably be canceled.

Different skills, different talents you know.

His role is restricted to what his job his job title says he is. An NFL HC. His duties are not that of an NFL FO. Somehow you think he should not have stayed in his lane and done his part of the job while allowing others to do the same. That's a you issue.

In your world do you think they asked Stefanski about the contract? Do you think in your world they consulted Stefanski on giving up the draft picks as compensation? In your world do you think they asked Stefanski his opinion on watson's character? In your world don't you think they trusted that supposed "investigation and interview of watson" over everything else. And in your world do you think Stefanski was a part of that investigative process? In your world after considering all of that you think Stafanski saying “I’m highly skeptical…” would have changed all of that?

Because you see, they had the people whose job they appointed to investigate watson. So in their minds anything to be "highly skeptical" about was addressed. And while that turned out to be wrong, nobody in their right mind woud listen to someone that was suspicious about a player over those that they actually paid to investigate that player.

If your going to post fairy tales you have to start them out right Mac.

IfBerry and KS are not willing/able to tell Haslam "that's a bad idea"
Then we have the wrong people at GM and HC

Here are some questions and answers about the Watson situation:
Q: Did Browns owner Jimmy Haslam initiate the Watson trade with Houston?

A: No. Haslam didn’t initiate the trade with Houston, one that sent a net a five draft picks, including three first-rounders to the Texans. The Browns, as an organization, determined that they needed a Pro Bowl-caliber quarterback to get them to the Super Bowl, and that their 2018 No. 1 overall pick Baker Mayfield wasn’t the answer. The decision-makers, including GM Andrew Berry and coach Kevin Stefanski, collectively decided that Watson, a three-time Pro Bowler, would be an upgrade.

That is my impression as well
If indeed that is the case, how do we Berry +/- KS.

Source

Further down:


If Haslam had just let this fail....if Haslam had just let this fail. (What color do we use for sighing?)

As expected.

Berry and Stefanski didn’t had the competence to judge Baker so instead of giving him time and heal they decided to move on. Their first big mistake.
After that the ball was rolling without control and three season later the Browns are without a starting quarterback.

They gave him time and did judge him and decided that he would not be able to lead us to the Super Bowl and win it. They have not been proven wrong yet as he has also failed to lead the Panthers, Rams, or Bucs there yet either. Will they be proved wrong??? Maybe or maybe not.

The battle of North Point was a pyrrhic win for the British. The Americans were pushed from the field but they caused a high casualty rate amongst the British, as well as confusion on lost troops.

Baker was not ready to be a leader at QB here and moving him on was a pyrrhic win for us. I am glad he is having a good career, I wish it could have been with us, but timing is everything.

I'm pretty sure that no one on this board knows exactly what transpired in the acquisition of Watson. That said, I think the timeline certainly helps to explain some things rather right, somewhat true, or a little off base. As far as the hierarchy goes, I agree that Stefanski doesn't make the player selection but for anyone to believe any HC, including Stefanski, doesn't have input is just fooling themselves. Though Haslam may be making some decisions on players (limited), I find it highly suspect that Berry would allow Haslam to be making every decision for him.

I am fully confident that the departure from Mayfield was initiated by Stefanski. We can cast blame on Stefanski or Mayfield, it doesn't matter. The case still remains that there was a serious falling out between the 2 principles. At the time, remember that Stefanski was just coming off a Coach of the Year and a playoff appearance and for a while was contending before things blew up. At that time, I believe that he could have gotten rid of Garrett if he wanted - it's called having faith in your HC. A HC that did something that hadn't been done in almost 20 years. I don't buy any conclusion that Stefanski has no say in the matter. I also believe that if Stefanski was 100% behind Mayfield that any talks of moving on would have never commenced.

This put the ball in Berry's court and his job is to build the best team possible. I believe he went to Haslam, explained the situation and his and Stefanski's feelings, and asked if the Browns could get involved in the high stake's pursuit of Watson. It was then that the Browns made the initial offer presented by Berry and supported by Haslam and Stefanski. This offer was Berry's baby and was similar to the other offers being rumored.

Fast forward to Watson nixing a Cleveland Browns landing spot and in enters Haslam. I think his ego got in the way and he wasn't going to let Watson nix Cleveland without looking at an offer no other team would dream of offering. Thus, the plane flight to Houston and we all know what happened then.

I will always believe that the dumping of Mayfield was initiated by Stefanski because of the falling out between the two. Berry holds all responsibility for going after Watson. He might have needed approval, but he was the driving force. Haslam deserves blame for letting his ego get involved and offering a total guaranteed contract to get the man Berry and Stefanski wanted.

a) Who's responsible for Mayfield's departure: without a doubt Stefanski
b) Who's responsible for going after Watson: Berry with the support of Stefanski and Haslam
C) Who's responsible for the acquisition of Watson: Haslam with the total support of Berry and Stefanski

Just my 2C on the matter.

Which means we are all "highly confident" in our own theories while actually having no idea how it all went down.

It’s all about probabilities and your post make better sense than most other comments.


I really hope we have learned from past mistakes when we’re going to find a new QB.

Absolutely no to Aaron Rogers and Kirk Cousins.
They both have red flags all over the place.

Motivation.
Age.
Injuries.
A complicated personality (Rodgers)
Lost sharpness and foot speed.

For the love of God please stay away.

gm..you are such a "homer"...there is no way you can acknowledge the truth about those running the Browns franchise. If only Haslam would learn how to be an NFL owner instead of a meddlesome bird-dog.


Browns Owner Named Among ‘Most Meddlesome’
January 11, 2025
By Earnest Horn
@earnest_horn
link
 
 

Former Browns owner Randy Lerner sold the NFL franchise to Haslam Sports Group in 2012, making Dee and Jimmy Haslam the managing partners of Cleveland’s football franchise.

Since that time, the Haslams have been involved in the team’s day-to-day operations in a quest to bring a championship to the organization.

In particular, Jimmy Haslam has led the charge, earning a reputation for being overly involved, according to analyst David Kenyon.

The analyst named Haslam among the “most meddlesome owners” in sports since 2000, joining three other NFL owners on the list.

“Haslam, however, bought the Cleveland Browns in 2012 and quickly made a reputation for being way too involved. For example, Haslam had a heavy hand in Cleveland adding Johnny Manziel, a 2014 pick who failed miserably. Haslam overruled the team’s executives and hired Hue Jackson in 2016; the Browns promptly went 1-15 and 0-16 before Jackson was fired during the 2018 season,” Kenyon said.

Haslam was joined by Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones and New York Jets owner Woody Johnson on the list.

Since purchasing the Browns, Cleveland is 73-138, having made the playoffs twice during that span.

Kenyon noted that since head coach Kevin Stefanski was hired in 2020, Haslam has been meddling less in the Browns’ day-to-day operations.

“That year, the new coach helped the Browns snap an 18-year playoff drought. Cleveland returned to the postseason in 2023 under him, too. Haslam’s reported drop in impulsiveness is clearly seen in Stefanski being expected to return for 2025 after a 3-14 year,” Kenyon said.

Other sports owners joining Kenyon’s list are Francesco Aquilini of the Vancouver Canucks, James Dolan of the New York Knicks and Rangers, Vivek Ranadive of the Sacramento Kings, and Jerry Reinsdorf of the Chicago White Sox and Bulls.

I will say one thing... Baker has matured as a pro and developed as a QB and while I don't blame KS/AB for deciding that the Baker they had here wasn't going to get it done, I do blame them for not seeing the potential being the ones to develop him.

Lol

And the Browns staff and most of the fans wouldn't have had the patience for any one them to develop.

I think the problem was he had to be humbled before he would accept the coaching. If you constantly coach something one way and he constantly does that thing a different way, eventually you just have to cut a guy loose. Extreme confidence can be great in a QB-- Not so much when he's wrong.

Baker and Dorsey basically had the same personality, it seems. Forget everyone else, I'm going to do what I want to do.

Supreme confidence just works better when you're throwing to Mike Evans.

We have to hire the absolute worst QB scouts and QB talent evaluators in NFL history.

And yet Evans missed 3 games due to injury, and Chris Godwin (who was on pace for his best season ever) missed over half the season. Baker threw for 41 TD, and 30 of those went to someone not named Mike Evans. Despite this, he had a completion % over 70%, and averaged almost 8 yards/pass attempt. He had a great season, despite who was on, or missing from, the field.

The Buccaneers also lost all the games Evans missed. He opens things up for everyone else, and is a security blanket you can throw to even when he's covered.

These are more Mike Evans appreciation posts than Baker hating ones.

Baker had a nice year.

Having possibly the GOAT receiver makes a QB's job a good bit easier.

I don't know about scouts and evaluators, but definitely QB gurus. Pretty sure Hue's 2016-2017 QB input was the last time "trust me" ever worked for him. Kessler and Kizer. ..."good" times....

Not a Homer at all. You see Mac I DO acknowledge the truth because I know a lot of it. That's the reason I know you just reach around behind yourself and pull things out of your backside when you don't have a clue.

I'm only going to address this part of your post. I pretty much agree with you that the Baker we see today is because of the struggles and experiences he went through to become who he is now. People seem to convince themselves that the outcome would have been the same here without Baker going through all of that. After leaving the Browns he made two other stops where NFL teams shipped him on down the road so it's not as if the Browns were the only NFL team to see him as not only ill prepared to be a starter, but even a backup NFL QB. The next two teams to give him a shot saw it too.

After having gone through all of that, he became the QB we see today. That's the thing about the struggles in life. They either break you down or you learn from them and you come out the other side stronger. Baker came out stronger and I'm happy for him.

j/c:

I think this whole Baker situation is pretty clear for me....

Baker has become a better QB since leaving Cleveland (choose your own reason why he's been better, no biggie) but still not the caliber of QB this team needs/wants in order to routinely compete with Allen, Mahomes, Jackson, Burrow, etc. in the AFC for the next decade plus.

While flailing their arms in an attempt to do any better. Or even close to as good.

The question if Baker had the ability to be the right/wrong Quarterback for the Browns is irrelevant.

The bottom line is that Stefanski and Berry never gave him a chance to mature and develop his talent again after his injury.

These two didn’t believe to be competent and experienced enough to develop a sometimes stubborn and troublesome player to become elite again.
That’s their big shortcoming.

For an historical underperforming organization it’s devastating on every level. Buying elite is much more costly. How can an organization build team chemistry, a winning mentality and creating a healthy working environment if they so fast give up on injured or troublesome players?


Stefanski and Berry gave up on Baker.

They totally failed with motivating Watson to succeed in Cleveland, injured or not.

They didn’t keep Flacco despite him proven himself in a short time to being a better QB than Watson.

Finally, they didn’t check how badly prepared Watson was when the 2024 season started.

Sure. It was all those two.

Yes.

Then please explain why why Haslam hasn't fired them?

Since 2012, when he bought the team, we've had seven different head coaches and six different GMs.


Yet he won't fire the two that shared arguably the most egregious mistake, and error in judgment, in Browns history.

Do have a feasible answer for that?


If not, move backwards on the flowchart till it all makes sense. This. Is. Not. That. Hard.

You ask a really good question.

Five year contracts is my first answer.

To fire them will probably cost somewhere between $20-25m including changing other coaches and coordinators.
Together with all the money the organization owes Watson I suspect that our budget is a little bit tight the following seasons.

Another factor could be that they’re both typical YES men. Watson initially said no to Cleveland.
Jimmy steps in and offer guaranteed money and then Deshaun change his mind.
Big big RED flag.

Only yes men accept to move on making the deal despite such clear indication that he wasn’t motivated to play for the Browns.
Especially Stefanski failed to read the room at that time.

Old saying still applies. Do it right, not light.

If I was in an owner position I would fire the HC and keep Andrew Berry.
They’re both equally responsible for the Watson fiasco but I prefer a GM who’s innovative and are willing to take chances.

Kevin isn’t bad but I simple doesn’t see anything special in his coaching style.
One step forward, two steps back is the best way to describe Stefanski’s time with the Browns.

Stefanski is now the 9th longest-tenured current head coach in the NFL.

You ain't been here long enough. Jimmuh doesn't care how many coaches or GMs he has on the payroll. This duo is the first time he's been down to one check each. Pretty sure he was writing three for head coaches when Stefanski was hired.

As for the rest -- the only explanation is "yes men", you say "Big big RED flag" -- but you want to keep one of them??

This crap gets really confusing.

You broke it down in the simplest of terms and he has no legitimate answer. That's because there isn't one.

We make this short. There's multiple case studies about how and when to fire a CEO. (in this case a GM/HC)
To keep some sorts of consistency a company (organization) shouldn't change all c-level leaders at the same time. It also creates a power vacuum when several leaders go at the same time.

I thought you two had full control of this subject but maybe I was a little bit too optimistic.