DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk 2025 NFL Draft Draft III

There's a difference between belief and arrogance. I'd say Shedeur Sanders at least walks/approaches the line.

Did he turn it around? Or was it literally an almost entirely new transplanted (NIL is wild) team where he had a lot of help?

If you think you are better than you actually are, that can be problematic. Was he the straw that stirred the drink? Or did a rising tide lift all the boats?

I can't definitively say what the case is, but I can see where it appears worth considering.

If you can back it up, that's one thing. I'm not sure that will be the case. We'll see when the games count at the highest level.

I also have to wonder what was said in the meetings behind closed doors. Working the media is one thing. Taking coaching another. I can see a world where teams asking what went wrong on some of his bad plays got some over the top push back. Teams that took a more complimentary approach could have found him more engaging. Without actually witnessing what went on, it's hard to feel confident either way.

Tom Brady. Patrick Mahomes. Josh Allen. Lamar Jackson. Jalen Hurts.

They all had warts coming out.

Just saying.

They did and almost all do. But I believe from reading your posts you too believe that Sanders has more question marks than answers. There is a tipping point and I believe he is past that point. As has been said by bone and it's true, you never know until after they're drafted how it will all play out. But to get Sanders I think he would have to be drafted at #2. In his case I feel the risk far outweighs the reward.

From what I've seen from your posts it seems you tended to lean that way as well. At least up until now.

Yeah, I'd be uncomfortable at 2. But, also don't want to go overboard because he could fall to us later. I see situations where Ward, Dart, and Milroe all go before him, and he's the best option left at a spot I would feel more comfortable (probably not entirely.) He could be successful. I probably would have hated Brady in the draft.

I don't just poke holes in other people's arguments. I try to poke them in my own, too. Asking one's self where one could be wrong is healthy.

You are engaging with a poster who wanted Josh Rosen at #1 in 2018 with all of his "warts". You certainly don't need to justify what QB you want and where you want to draft him with that poster.

I think there's a vast difference between saying he has no chance to be successful and advocating he not be drafted at #2. That's an extremely high investment for what I see as the odds of success.

I'm not sure why you making the argument that the team being built around him as much of the reason for his success when debating this with bone is any less poking holes in his argument than what I was doing but oh well.

As for my view it's much like your own. I think the transfer portal and all of those players that transferred to Colorado to play for Deion made it possible to build a team around Shedeur in a manner that can't be duplicated in the NFL. I feel it was more a case of Travis Hunter making Shedeur look good than the other way around. As such I have yet to see any list of best players available that have Shedeur rated anywhere close to where Hunter is rated. I think much of the talk we are seeing around Shedeur is based on the Deion hype and attention Colorado received by Deion being their coach.

I really didn't see that many NFL throws into tight windows from Shedeur. I saw a lot more such throws from QB's rated much lower.

But sure, I could be wrong about the entire thing just as much as anyone else could be. I'm not a draft expert nor am I an NFL coach. I don't even play one on TV.

I just have my opinion the same as everyone else. I just have a lot to base that opinion on.

Sorry one sided listener. You were so quick to attack you didn't even bother to notice that Bull isn't advocating we draft Sanders at #2 either.

I think the issue is that some people saw your belief in your opinion and apparent dismissal of his as arrogance. (that's the conversation coming back full circle)

Who would those "some people" be? Are you really going to start this BS in Pure Football again? Everybody has strong opinions on the draft. Especially at the QB position. It's not an isolated to rare thing.

The people that responded before I did? I calmly made a
reference to what was said earlier. Belief vs arrogance. I was showing that people can interpret things differently. I even explained why I used the emoji in the parentheses.

You're the one that the seems to be trying to turn this into BS. It's whatever.

...

What TE's do people like? Any sleepers? I'm struggling to find the right combination of value and fit.

I like Warren, but not as high as he's likely to go. I'm not a big Fannin fan. Helm's combine gives me pause. Maybe it makes him fall to where I'd be comfortable taking him.

The Mayer trade speculation makes some sense to me. I'm not sure what to make of the sitting for personal reasons "red flag."

Who is it that "responded before you did"? Before you go any further, Memphis has me blocked and only saw one side of the discussion. And let's just say that he actually made no comment related to our discussion at all.

I quoted you, so Memphis saw it there. He quoted you when he quoted my post quoting you. When your words are in his post, I think it's a safe assumption to infer that he saw them. Bonefish also responded to you.

Any thoughts on the draft?

So out of our entire back and forth he saw one quote. and that quote wasn't even in response to you. Then from that quote you claim he based everything on that one quote? Based on this.........


How much further do think it's possible for a human being to stretch before he pulls a muscle? You have to be bordering that point.

I already explained some of my thoughts on the draft and instead of discussing the topic you had another one of your meltdowns.

Thanks bud I appreciate.

Sanders is a good kid. I think his Dad raised him right. I think he has a good character. But I worry he has lived too privileged a life and wont do well with criticism because he will think his Dad taught him and no one is better than his dad and Deion is one of the best ever at his position so there will be weight to it. I do worry it will cause a lot of headaches. I think he can overcome all that though if he humbles himself and works hard.

I also think his processing speed could improve but realistically that won't improve by much for most QBs. It's a mental process. Sanders wants to play it safe too much and waits too long for that perfect window to throw. To me that is a personality trait that will be hard to get him to relax on. I honestly think he would have been better off going in the third round and sitting on a bench for several years.

Ward has great potential with that cannon of an arm. I like him too. I do worry if he can keep the ball safe at the next level though because he likes to take chances that he won't get away with at the next level. He reminds me a lot fo Flacco to be honest. I won't be sad if he ends up as our QB. I wouldn't trade up to get him though. I'd take him at 2.

I wish Jimmy G were not beat up to hell and back but I think his career is pretty much over due to the pounding he took with the 49ers. I think his ankles are shot and that he is done for good if he is smart. He always had excellent footwork but how good can his footwork be with sausage ankles? It's a shame because if he were healthy again he could take our offense and make it shine for sure. Hell, I would sign him to a cheap 1 year deal to kick the tires a bit to find out. He has an awesome locker room presence. He might choose to go to New England for cheap though.

I would also be find trading for Stafford if it didn't cost more than a 2nd round pick and if we can wait to redo his deal until after Deshaun's deal runs out. I'm also fine with brining Flacco back or taking a crack with Rodgers. I would just like for whichever QB we draft to be able to sit and learn for a year.

My Ideal situation is we trade backward but stay in the top 10 and then draft Dart after picking up a pick or two. I'm also fine with taking a defensive lineman like Abdul Carter if we stay at 2 or take Mason Graham after trading back a spot or two. Either of those two will greatly improve our D-line and help Myles to shine more. I mean mason eating up two offensive linemen next to Myles would be fun to watch for me =)

I think this draft will be messy and that QBs will be taken way too early due to desperation by quite a few teams.

I think part of my distaste for Sanders is that on the field, trait-wise, he reminds me of Watson. The arm and the way he moves. Perhaps the taking sacks, too. Say what you will about the line, a decent chunk of the sacks are on him, and negative plays are hard to overcome.

I actually think Sanders to the Steelers is a possibility. I wonder if Darnold might be in play there, too.

I know a lot of mocks have the QBs going high at the moment, I think a decent bit of that is just engagement farming. Negative reactions are still reactions. Say what you will about Shedeur, but good or bad he gets a reaction.

Bull, I don't know any more about these players than anyone else on this board I just have an opinion and mine is, as I've stated before, is pass on Sanders. I think he's an average talent. There are more talented players to take at #2. I think Jaxson Dart will be a better QB than Sanders. That's not even considering the drama with his father which I'm sure at some point will come into play. It may not with other teams but in Cleveland there's always drama. I'd pass.

How would you feel about trading back in order to load up for next year's draft (to get our QB-of-the-future)?

When I say trait-wise, I mean physically, and I was thinking more Browns Watson than coming out Watson with Shedeur. In a he can move, but not as well as he thinks he can move sort of way that gets him into trouble. Also the arm talent feels comparable.

I see Ward as more Lamar physically. The arm and legs are on a different level than Watson.

The processing part is just so hard to tell. The what they are looking at on the other side at the next level is just so different. Not necessarily the coverages, but the players performing them, the size of the windows. Like in the Chase Daniels coverage of Shedeur, there's the play where he talks about the WR being NFL open and he needs to throw it. I think the hesitance to throw it into NFL windows could be a big issue. There just tends to be more space in college and I'm not sure that what he does adds up to the same results in the pros. The margin for error in a giant window as far as timing and anticipation allows you to wait longer and throw "softer." You can't consistently wait for giant windows in the NFL.

I kind of see Pittsburgh as a fit because Pickens is more of a contested catch receiver. Sanders can get it out early, but it's more in these situations. See the one on one, put it in a spot for Pickens to go get could potentially fit.

I see Jeudy as more of a hit him in the window receiver. I can see Ward hammer it into small windows more.

Edit: I'm talking Ward from a see it, do it standpoint as far as the small windows. My concerns come with the placement in those windows. He has the arm talent to do it. I think he can see it. Does he have the "control" to do it consistently?

Ward with #2 - maybe.

I want no part of Jador - that arm in CLE. No way, no how. There is nothing special about him - nothing.

I would prefer they draft Carter or trade back and jump back in to 1st and grab Dart.

I'm wondering if this is the play. The problem I'm seeing is the who is coming up part. And coming up for whom?

I think Giants go to one for Ward. Those decision makers need a QB now, and going rookie probably buys them time if he flashes at all. I don't know that someone comes up to 2 for Dart/Sanders/Other.

Dropping back to 6, taking Membou, taking Milroe later has some appeal to me. I don't think you bet on the QB future next year, I think you still take a swing now. I also like the value if we got 2/3s in this draft instead of (or addition to, but I don't think so) the future. I think there will be a lot of solid+ players there. I like Milroe because he could have a position switch fallback at (stud) RB/has routes other than "traditional" QB (RB Taysom Hill.) Plus, I think there's a shot he could be a really good QB. The Bama situation was weird last year. The post-Saban transfers out had Bama atypically short stocked. The OL might not have been that far off from Colorado's (And were against SEC D-Lines) and the WRs were probably worse (and against SEC secondaries.) Ryan Williams might become a Travis Hunter level receiver, but he was in year one with a lot to learn.

Compare Milroe's Georgia game to Dart's. Dart's overall season statline is better, but if you put more weight on his games against the better defenses the picture changes significantly. Don't get me wrong, Milroe against Oklahoma was definitely an eyesore in the box score (I do think it misses a lot of context, though), but the good against good "flashes"/individual games are better to me.

I love the idea of trading back....or getting high picks in next years draft....I dislike Sanders alot....why, he reminds me off our past loud mouth quarterback- seems everyone has short memory- I'll break this league.....show me the MONEY....Johnny is the name- enough said...Sanders has weak arm and lots of mouth- PASS.

Milroe- please, God, no way. Panthers took Alabama QB and it hasn't worked out. Milroe looked completely lost in some games- what will Pro game do to him. JMHO, our GM needs to remember what Dallas Johnson said long ago--you can't fix stupid. Exhibit one on the Browns- Jedrick Wills, we got stroked with this pick....he looked lost lots of times. Our GM CAN'T whiff with our top draft picks--- he has in the past. A second round pick, Hall- Ohio State....we got almost nothing AND did the front office MISS character flaws like they did with Watson......we need real good, smart players like they say they'll bring to Cleveland....time will tell.

Gotta scout the player, not the helmet. I wish there was video of someone like a Brian Hartline breaking down the pass catcher play in that Oklahoma/Bama game. Might have to see what I can dig up if I look.

Milroe at Senior Bowl, sacked three times, ran OK.....but he didn't perform anywhere near NFL QB in several games.....draft pass.

Haven't been around in forever axing baker n trading for Watson was more than I couldtake.
Sanders, I won't complain if we take him at 2 but I would prefer moving down. Doesn't wow me but I think scheme wise we can hide alot of his flaws and win now with him. The interview however he would have to blow me away with knowledge.

Personally. I see 3 other qbs in this class I can probably get late first or 2nd That I prefer. So if I can't trade out, I am going de and building my defense.

The Senior Bowl game is not a great evaluative tool. Some teams' scouts don't even stay for it. They care about the practices. Chemistry isn't there, and he really didn't get many opportunities as they're moving different QBs in and out. OLs got cooked.

Watch the 2023 tape when he was with Rees. Last year was rough for Bama, as they tried to Frankenstein two offenses that didn't really fit together like we did and the personnel was in flux, but he had legit good moments anyways. (I.e, Vs Georgia.) Bama's tackles struggled most of the year. The receivers were volatile (the highs were high, but the lows were really low.) CJ Dippre had some awful games at TE (if I'd only seen OU, I'd have thought he was undraftable.)

Imo, The tools are the best in the draft. The skills are better than you think.

There were just so many drive killing mistakes around him it was a tough year. DeBoer didn't seem to know how to take advantage of his legs. He used them a lot, but it was like the other teams knew when he was using them (by alignment?) and Milroe was getting pasted in the backfield by multiple defenders most times the designed runs were called. It was like DeBoer was constantly asking "how can we ensure we're in 3rd and long and get the QBs bell rung?"

It was just weird to watch if you saw both '23 and '24.

I'm by no stretch of the imagination proclaiming Milroe will be great. If someone made the argument that they were trying to make Milroe look as bad as possible last season, there's a part of me that wouldn't find it completely ridiculous. (It's not what happened, but there were a lot of head scratchers)

I agree there is some development that has to take place.

I disagree on touch, timing, and placement. Are you watching 2023 or 2024? His connection with Burton, Bond, and Niblack in 2023 was nice. I think his problem this year was more not knowing where his guys were going to go. It didn't look like his WRs knew where they were going to go. A ten yard comeback could end up 5 yards, it could end up 15. A go designed to be thrown at the hash could have the WR tiptoeing the sideline. And he was getting flushed from the pocket a lot more throwing off timing that way as well. On scramble drills, he and the guys last year were on the same page. This year, not so much. I don't think the WRs were seeing it well at all. When he didn't know where they'd be, he kind of resorted to throwing hard where they were at with mixed results.

He was definitely a better deep ball thrower than the short stuff. I'd like that to improve, but I'm fine with limiting those throws in our offense early on with him. Focus around the Run and play action deep shots. Maybe drags and crossers to create scramble lane options with the horizontal stretch.

Kind of why I like RB (former WR) Brashard Smith in the draft, let him run arrow routes and wheels. Get him down the field with a LB. Flex him out and let him run away from a LB/S across the middle.

QB draws instead of screens. Run or throw it away instead of "checkdowns." Or just work on those.

I think the league is missing on Milroe like they missed on Lamar. Figure out what he can do unlike anybody else and how to take advantage instead of picking apart what you think he can't. (That's generic you, not you specifically)

I think Jeudy is more Bond/Burton, and Njoku is more Niblack. I think he could fit what we've got/can draft (running game would help and he can help it.)

Edit: Also, I'd like to sign Fields in the Milroe scenario. You can design the O with both in mind, and still give Milroe some time to clean things up.

Edit2: The problem with this approach is it only takes one team seeing Lamar, too to blow up the plan of waiting on him.

j/c:

Potential Browns first-round pick renders outdated NFL draft evals obsolete — Jimmy Watkins

https://www.cleveland.com/sports/20...-draft-evals-obsolete-jimmy-watkins.html

If one prefers any one over the other, it doesn't mean they won't all be bad. Mr. Irrelevant can work out okay. Nobody really knows until they do it.

Knowing how to play QB is great. It doesn't mean you have the goods to actually play QB at the NFL level.

That's where I struggle with Shedeur. He's near that fine line to me. But, some of it could go back to he threw the way he threw because he could get away with it. The windows were what they were and he threw catchable balls. My aversion for underthrown deep balls could be tinting the picture.

I do somewhat question the hype about his toughness. I'm not denying that he showed it. I just think it's a bit of a double edged sword. With his frame, injury concerns worry me some. Especially with our history with QBs. How will he hold up? How sapped can he get over the course of a longer season, getting hit by more monstrous players, and still function?

He just doesn't seem like a successful AFC North QB to me. Perhaps watching Colt McCoy get murdered is still lingering in my psyche.