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Isn't accuracy more of function of leading your receivers correctly? I believe it is.. so, I think that can be fixed.. Just like anything else,, practice practice practice....
I'm not so sure on that one.
That's not like reading D's better...or changing your footwork...or where you hold the ball while waiting in the pocket, etc. etc.
Accuracy is reactionary. Like swinging the bat and hitting a pitched ball. Some guys are better than others...and some guys become catchers or pitchers.
DA has been throwing a football since he was a kid...he's been practicing since he was a kid. I'd bet that his general accuracy will stay pretty much the way it is. He goes on hitting streaks and in slumps....usually in the same game.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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Let's break that down Damon. What did his scouting report break down about DA that caused him to be taken in the sixth round?
Who knows but more importantly, who cares.. 3 years out of college I was a completely different man.. married, responsibilities, career, house, boat and two cars.. My mind set was different,, my thought process was different and I took things more serious.. maybe he is, maybe he isn't but geez,, his college days are long gone.. let's talk about now.
I've come to a conlusion,, you are working way to hard to try either convince me that you are right, or to prove how smart you are..
I concede, you are smart!
But since I know you are not a football coach, assistent coach, player or front office type guy for any NFL team, I'm gonna go with the thouight that you are guessing just like the rest of us.. and in the end, you may be right.. don't know..
But you don't have to work this hard to convince me.. I just had a simple question.. no need to write a book,, but I do thank you for the effort! 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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First off, happy birthday Vette.. I'm almost sorry I asked the question now. I got guys practically writing books on the subject..  Quote:
Accuracy is reactionary. Like swinging the bat and hitting a pitched ball. Some guys are better than others...and some guys become catchers or pitchers.
Reactionary.. hmm?
I don't know if you play golf.. I attempt it, but truly, my bowling score is lower.. but they talk about something called mucsle memory when teaching golf. (yeah, I've had lessons, they didn't take )
They put me on one of these devices, it's like a big circle made of metal tubing. it's sits on an angle and you climb in and rest your club on the circle and then swing the club over and over again to attempt to get your muscles to feel it and then react the same way once out of the device..
I don't believe there is a device like that in football.. I think it's just repeat repeat repeat over and over again. Same principle however.
But if I undestand you correctly, what you are saying is that muscles can't be taught to react as desired in football! Do I have that right?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Nice to see you BigWillie, but j/c Man, there is a lot of garbage on this thread. It's like the more you all repeat it, the more it becomes fact. *L* --Stats are being bashed only when they support DA, but stats that are pretty much irrelevant and are used to crucify DA are left alone. That's fair.  --May I ask what our record was in the second half.......you know......when all those defensive coordinators figured DA out? --And this crap about taking the deep pass away is just that.......crap. If teams scheme to take away the deep pass, then they are opening up the running game. May I ask if our running game improved in the second half of the season when DA's numbers went down? --Was weather never a factor? Did DA play bad in the Buffalo game? How many balls did K2 alone, drop in that game? --I keep hearing about all the great catches. Yes, there were a ton of great catches. No doubt. But, there were a ton of drops on perfect passes all year. Yet, a person says DAs stats are inflated because of the great catches and no one challenges him on it. These things even out and this is why you guys are not credible. ---Then I read where the two biggest games of the year were Arizona and the second Bengal game. Well, the Bengal game was the biggest game of the year and DA stunk. But was Arizona really the second biggest game? Bigger than the Buffalo game? Bigger than the Jet game? Bigger than the Seattle game? Sheesh. Yet, Brady's Brats attack another poster and defend the "genius" who said it.  ---We won 10 games. And all you people do is complain about one guy. Get real. Most of the same people who are trashing DA were the ones defending Timid. Timid could improve even though he was a three year starter, but DA can't improve because he is in his third year and first as a starter, even though DA has WAY MORE tools than Timid ever did. You are not credible. Now.............I haven't really said who I prefer as the QB. I'm just trying to give you all a dose of reality. I'm sorry that reality offends so many of you. Nah, I ain't sorry............deal w/it! *L*
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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For some of us bro (and I am not talking about the dolts) there are real reasons we thought Timid could improve whereas have ???s about DAs ceiling.
Again this is my opinion, but my biggest ???s about Timid were his INTs first and foremost, his struggles to consistently read coverages, and his seemingly never ending love of the check down. As annoying at those are they are all legitimate things that a QB can improve on. Did Tim do it........no, but those aren't things that he couldn't improve on. DA does has some things that quite frankly (again imo) he isn't going to get better on. For example, he can not throw on the run (or with much movement at all) with any accuracy. Bud Toad does have a point when he says at this point accuracy isn't something that can be taught. If you can name a guy that was as inaccurate as DA is on some of his throws and then with time got it worked out please let me know. I sincerely mean that, and don't mean it as a smart butt, but would like to know, because I can't think of one. Now when people talk about his decision making and INTs, I am with you in that he can improve there. I just know that his accuracy imo is always going to be a real sore spot in his game.
My personal feeling is that if all things were equal then youou keep both QBs. However, the truth is they aren't equal.............1 QB is going to demand big bucks either this off season or the next, and 1 QB is signed reasonably long term. There is also the possibility of either getting compensation for DA or not by keeping him for 1 extra year. As I told Peen unless the FO thinks DA is heads and shoulders above BQ then I trade him if I get a respectable offer for those reasons alone.........and it's just business with me bro nothing personal.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Both are unproven,
Both...come on man...one of them is unproven. If you can't even give credit to DA for what he did....why read further????....but I will.
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from the limited amount I've seen of both do not see that much of a PO differential to favor DA over BQ......
Did you not watch any of the season? DA played almost the ENTIRE season..I can understand the limited views of BQ...he threw 4-5 passes in the regular season and played a bit against camp fodder later in the pre-season.
Based on all of that, I don't see how you could possible draw a conclusion BQ would or should garner a higher pick than DA.
Is that some formula you have or simply a feeling??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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For some of us bro (and I am not talking about the dolts) there are real reasons we thought Timid could improve whereas have ???s about DAs ceiling.
Good gosh...DA has a higher ceiling than TC ever did.
Ceilings aren't established on where you were drafted.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Then I read where the two biggest games of the year were Arizona and the second Bengal game. Well, the Bengal game was the biggest game of the year and DA stunk. But was Arizona really the second biggest game?
I can't remember who said that, but I read it also on this thread,, was it Garyfinn maybe.. anyway.. the biggest game of the year is not cut and dry.. had we one either of the pittsburgh games, I'm not certain the last Cincy game would have meant anything..so to me, the most important games were either of the Pittsbugh games..
But I still find it crazy to pick the worst games that DA played and use those at the barometer for his entire year.
I'm always gonna be of the opinion that every QB in the league has bad games.. even Tom Brady this year.. he's just got a better team over all and they were able to pull it out.. Same could be said for Payton Manning.
The fair and Honest way to review a QB is to review his entire body of work for a year.. that way you get a representation that isn't tainted by him having one or two bad games..
But that's just my opinion...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Thanks for the birthday wish. My birthday wish is to actually play golf rather than be an insult to the game. Leading a receiver accross the field has nothing to do with muscle memory. Your brain has to gauge how far to lead the receiver (requires more 'feel'). Like hitting a pitched ball...your brain needs to gauge where to get the bat to. In golf, the ball is sitting right freakin' there. It ain't goin' nowhere. It's just lookin' at ya and laughing...saying "you can't even hit me in the fairway".  Yes, in golf you're trying to build muscle memory because you're trying to groove your swing. You change the equipment to add or reduce distance. The only time you're trying to 'lead' anything is if you're playing a fade or draw...and most of the change there is in opening or closing the club face and stance (with minor adjustment to grip). Leading receivers in football has far less to do with the mechanics of your motion than it does your ability to 'feel' where to get the ball to. DA seems to lack a little in the feel department.
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Games I believe DA's poor performance contributed to a loss:
Cincy #2
Oakland
Games I believe DA's good performance contributed to a win:
Cincy #1
Miami
St. Louis
Seattle
Baltimore #1
Baltimore #2
Clearly, he 'contributed' to the result in every game, but those are the ones I feel can be marked as games where DA's specific presence carried a lot of weight in the outcome.
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You leave out the zona game in which DA only completed 51% of his passes and threw 2 INT's. He DID however throw for over 300 yards and 2 TD's while our running game struggled.
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and wasn't one of those pics returned for a TD????? .. am not sure but think it was ..
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I'm not the person U want to ask the question about what i would want for BQ ... especailly after I saw what u did to Willie ..
but if u want me to answer i will ... be forewarned before U ask and then respond to me .. I'm DONE BEING NICE TO U .... its been 3 or 4 posts i believe and I can tolerate it no more ... *LOL* ..
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You leave out the zona game in which DA only completed 51% of his passes and threw 2 INT's. He DID however throw for over 300 yards and 2 TD's while our running game struggled.
I looked over the schedule and this was the very one I hesitated on...he threw two picks, one for six...
...but our D gave the Cards ALL DAY to throw, and let James run free...Jamal didn't really do much...and, yes, DA was hot and cold...but to *me*, not cold enough to be the bulk of the factors in the outcome...
...not to mention that he threw the game-winning TD as far as my eyes saw. 
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Learn to read numb nuts.  ....lol. I said some of us question what his ceiling is.........aka how high DA's ceiling really goes............never once did I compare his ceiling to Tim's, BQs, PDiddy, or Sean Salsbury.....lol. I just said some of us question how high his ceiling is because of the accuracy problems. As for the rest, bro DA has big ???s whether you want to admit it or not. His accuracy problems are for real, his high # of INTs despite very little pressure this year are for real. Those aren't me inventing something bro, he has those ???s, and therefore he has something to prove. BQ also has something to prove because he hasn't played enough to know what he must improve on.........if anything at all. I guarantee you if he throws 19 picks next year against the schedule we have he won't finish the year as our starter, becuase we will lose double digit games. I am not saying that to pile on hte guy either, but until he proves that he can be more accurate and not throw a high # of picks then guess what he's unproven.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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BigWillie, I like you and I know you aren't one of the agenda folks. I disagree w/some of your points, but that's okay. Of course, I am going to debate you about a few of those points. Just know this...........I don't put you in that group I was speaking about earlier. Quote:
For some of us bro (and I am not talking about the dolts) there are real reasons we thought Timid could improve whereas have ???s about DAs ceiling.
Timid did not have the tools that DA has. Thinking he could have improved enough to overcome his many weaknesses was a pipe dream.
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Again this is my opinion, but my biggest ???s about Timid were his INTs first and foremost, his struggles to consistently read coverages, and his seemingly never ending love of the check down.
Tim couldn't read defenses or coverages. He was horribly inaccurate, much moreso than DA. His mechanics were atrocious, and yes, he did check down way too much. There are those on here who act like checking down makes a good QB. *L* There are obviously times to do it, but when you get a guy who worries more about completion percentage than picking up a first down.....then you have a real problem. Dude, we got a lot of first downs this year on third and long plays. And they were made by throws that were unbelievably accurate. I am so sick of this accuracy argument that I wanna puke.
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DA does has some things that quite frankly (again imo) he isn't going to get better on. For example, he can not throw on the run (or with much movement at all) with any accuracy. Bud Toad does have a point when he says at this point accuracy isn't something that can be taught.
Sorry, but I think you are both out to pasture. When a guy like DA can be extremely accurate on tough throws, he sure as hell can become more accurate on easier throws. DA is extremely accurate when his feet are set. However, there are times when he gets his feet too close together and opens up his left shoulder. This causes the ball to go wide, either because of him following the motion through, or because he tries to sling it.
The reason for the poor mechanics is when he gets pressure up the middle. He faced quite a bit of it in the second Steeler game, the second Bengal game, and against the Niners. To be perfectly blunt......this is the area of DAs game that bothers me the most. Because all QBs get some pressure. However, I do think that if I noticed it, his coaches will notice it and they can do drills where he works on his footwork and can finish his throws.
Allow me to provide two examples. Against SF, he was pressured hard up the middle, yet he threw a TD pass to Edwards. However, his mechanics were not completely sound, and he did most of that with his arm. The mechanics weren't awful, but he did open up his left foot and had it a bit too close to his plant foot. The second one is the one he threw to Winslow where he hurt his finger. His mechanics stayed sound even though he faced tremendous pressure. Winslow ended up dropping a perfect pass. But, when DAs mechanics were sound.....he delivered an extremely accurate pass under duress.
Now......I am not saying it will be easy, but yes, it can be improved. I know enough about the position to make that claim. He is not inaccurate due to his lack of "feel" as some people are stating as fact. In fact, I find that to be pure hogwash. He actually has a very good feel for the game.
I am going to add one thing that you didn't. DA does struggle w/reading coverages. He actually proved to be very good at reading defenses, but he sometimes makes dumb throws into coverages.
One must understand that in college, he was coached to attack the defense deep at every opportunity and that reading coverages and throwing picks was not a big thing. He had to overcome that mindset and I think our coaches did a good job w/him this year. I could see him going through his progressions more and more as the year went on. It was almost amazing that this was the same QB I saw last year and in the early part of this year......i.e. Oakland game.
He can certainly improve on reading coverages. I say this because I saw him improve this year. He still has a ways to go though.
I think he will always throw his share of picks, because he trusts his arm so much. But, I have always said that I can live w/a certain amount of picks if a QB makes a lot of good plays. If you aren't willing to trust your arm and risk the pick, then you don't pick up the 3rd and 18s w/laser darts like he threw this year. Yes, he does have to cut down on the picks, but he doesn't need to be a game manager. This guy can win you games. And he did. As in............10.
I really don't know if he can be a franchise QB, but he showed me enough that I believe he deserves the opportunity. Quinn may end up being better, but DA can do things that BQ can't dream of doing. I find that hard to ignore.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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The Cleveland Browns were the only team in the NFL to have two 1,000-yard receivers (Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow) and a 1,000-yard rusher (Jamal Lewis).
KEEP DA!!!!
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s that some formula you have or simply a feeling??
It's based on what I said...........the amount of money I have to pay 1 guy over the other thus limiting my cap and resources to help my TEAM...............and based on what I saw (and I know GMs saw) on flaws that quite honestly DA can't improve on. Sorry bro, he is never going to be an accurate QB..........it is what it is. I personally, (and you wanted my opinion on this) wouldn't keep DA if I was offered a 1st or 2nd, because I don't want to drop 50 million on a guy who imo isn't going to get that much better, and against tougher competition next year has a good shot at getting exposed. As I said last post, if he's on pace to throw 19 picks next year against that murdurous row schedule then he won't finish the year, becuase we will lose double digit games...................and then you get squat for him.
So yes it would take more for me to get rid of BQ than DA. However, I nor you are at practice everyday, and we don't know how BQ is progressing............if it's to the point we believe he can play close to the level that DA can play then it's a no brainer you get something for DA while the fire is hot.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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I'm not the person U want to ask the question about what i would want for BQ ... especailly after I saw what u did to Willie ..
Anything I said to Willie shouldn't have any bearing on the simple question I asked you.
Surley in all of this talk about trade, someone has to be mentioning BQ...I would guess you would agree.
I don't want to hear about how great BQ is going to become, you have made that clear on more than a few occasions....i just want to know, what would you consider a reasonable offer to pry BQ away from the Browns.....remember....everything has a price my man.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I'll play ... just rememberone thing .. I am not now nor have ever been the FAIR POLICE ... although I am usually very fair ... Quote:
Stats are being bashed only when they support DA, but stats that are pretty much irrelevant and are used to crucify DA are left alone. That's fair.
see the above disclaimer .. *LOL* .... sorry but the two main stats I see to "crucify" him I happen to agree with ... his completion % should have been MUCH HIGHER given all the variables ... also he should not have thrown near as many pics ..
sorry but what i think .... weather u agree or not .. its what i believe ...
and i have also STUCK UP FOR DA on more than one occasion when people have blamed him for things that are not his fault ... such as not making the playoffs .. being solely responsible for the Bungles debacle .... and a few other assorted dumb ass statementsby the dolts on my side of the fence ..
so there .. *L* ..
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May I ask what our record was in the second half.......you know......when all those defensive coordinators figured DA out
7 - 3 ..... *shrugs shoulders wondering what the hell this is suppose to prove* ....
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And this crap about taking the deep pass away is just that.......crap. If teams scheme to take away the deep pass, then they are opening up the running game. May I ask if our running game improved in the second half of the season when DA's numbers went down?
yes it did .... this time I agree with U on what it means so I won't add a sarcastic remark .. *L* .. i am pretty sure however U put way more credence in it than I do ....
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Was weather never a factor?
yes it was ...
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Did DA play bad in the Buffalo game? How many balls did K2 alone, drop in that game?
Not at all .. he played very well given the circumstances ... his strong arm was a major asset in that game ... allowed him to make throws Buff could only dream of ...
no clue how many passes KW dropped in that game ... nor do I care ... kinda hypocritical U wanna use weather as a part of the problem for him but give KW no margin for error in it .. dont u think???? *L* ...
or am i mising sumptin there????
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I keep hearing about all the great catches. Yes, there were a ton of great catches. No doubt. But, there were a ton of drops on perfect passes all year. Yet, a person says DAs stats are inflated because of the great catches and no one challenges him on it. These things even out and this is why you guys are not credible.
I couldn't agree less ... DA was way ahead of the game in these categories than any other QB in the league ... WAY AHEAD on both counts ... IMO ..
just like just because someone says it doesn't make it true .. just because U believe it doesn't make it true .. THINGS DID NOT EQUAL OUT THIS YEAR ... not even close ..
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Yet, Brady's Brats attack another poster and defend the "genius" who said it.
there's dolts on both sides bro .. I've told U for years that until u start to have fun with them (like i do with peenie) or just ignore them and *L* at what they say U will never enjoy this place .. and appearantly thats never going to happen for U .. and its a shame cause this place can be a barrell of laughs with the right tude ..
well unless U enjoy the arguing ... am i on to sumptin here???? 
Timid never had EVEN 1/10TH of the tools that DA did .. NOT EVEN CLOSE ..... my guess is the OLman that timid had that could have started on this team was Tuck . who also started on this one .. *LOL* ..
WR .. maybe one of his could ahve been a 3rd or 4th ... TE .. dotn make me *L* ..
RB .. LANDSLIDE anyone???
why did u even go their???? .... 
OK . I played ... *L* ..
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and a pro bowl left tackle...and a used to be pro bowl left guard...(don't know what happened to Stieney to make him no longer a pro bowler)
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Willie....I am not against getting something for DA....I hope we do if we don't keep him...who wouldn't.
I guess i just don't agree on not being able to improve... and I guess there is a gap on how much really needs to be improved.
I know things can be skewed....but from the talk we read, Savage doesn't seem to think THAT much needs to be improved.
But in fairness...I suppose I have taken the stand a player couldn't improve.....and the flip is you and others said he could(rhetorical).
In the end, it simply boils down to point of view.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I wouldn't trade BQ ... PERIOD ....
thanks for asking .. now I'm really gonna get labeled .. even though its the furthest thing from the truth ...
I may take a vacation for a month or so from posting ... prolly wont be worth coming back for awhile now .. *L* ..
have fun guys and gals .. see u in awhile ....
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I'll play ... just rememberone thing .. I am not now nor have ever been the FAIR POLICE ... although I am usually very fair ...
I don't think your post was unfair. There are a few things I disagree with, but overall, it is fair.
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see the above disclaimer .. *LOL* .... sorry but the two main stats I see to "crucify" him I happen to agree with ... his completion % should have been MUCH HIGHER given all the variables ... also he should not have thrown near as many pics ..
sorry but what i think .... weather u agree or not .. its what i believe ...
Can't knock you if you think those are so important. It's just that I happen to think that wins, points scored, 3rd down conversion rate, yds. per attempt, and TD to Interception ratio are way more important.
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and i have also STUCK UP FOR DA on more than one occasion when people have blamed him for things that are not his fault ... such as not making the playoffs .. being solely responsible for the Bungles debacle .... and a few other assorted dumb ass statementsby the dolts on my side of the fence ..
That's cool. I will say that DA did lay a stinker against the Bengals. And it was at a bad time. I can't really defend him there, other than to say why in the hell did we throw so much in that wind? We should have ran it down their throats and mixed some passes in. But, they decided to throw and DA stunk.
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7 - 3 ..... *shrugs shoulders wondering what the hell this is suppose to prove* ....
Well...........figuring him out should lead to them winning. Yet we were 7 and 3. Most people would love to be "figured out" like that. *L*
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yes it did .... this time I agree with U on what it means so I won't add a sarcastic remark .. *L* .. i am pretty sure however U put way more credence in it than I do ....
Not really. It just goes unmentioned by the Brats. {I don't consider you part of the Brats even though you are his biggest fan....LOL} All I'm saying is that it needs to be considered instead of just saying teams shut DA down. It's what our offense does that counts. And it's about wins. I also can't figure out why people would have a problem w/us running it late in the season. Bro, it is just the misuse of stats.
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Not at all .. he played very well given the circumstances ... his strong arm was a major asset in that game ... allowed him to make throws Buff could only dream of ...
no clue how many passes KW dropped in that game ... nor do I care ... kinda hypocritical U wanna use weather as a part of the problem for him but give KW no margin for error in it .. dont u think???? *L* ...
or am i mising sumptin there????
Hey, an honest hater. *L* Do you remember who said that to whom a long time ago?
I only brought up the drops because someone like Attack will post DA's QB rating against the Bills as proof as to how much he stunk. LOL
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I couldn't agree less ... DA was way ahead of the game in these categories than any other QB in the league ... WAY AHEAD on both counts ... IMO ..
just like just because someone says it doesn't make it true .. just because U believe it doesn't make it true .. THINGS DID NOT EQUAL OUT THIS YEAR ... not even close ..
Great catches vs. drops. Not even close? Sorry, I disagree. Note, that I am not discounting the great play by some of receivers........I am only comparing great catches [catches they should not be expected to make] vs. drops. And in my mind it isn't close. Only the opposite of what you believe.
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well unless U enjoy the arguing ... am i on to sumptin here????
Me? 
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why did u even go their???? ....
Old times' sake?
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OK . I played ... *L* ..
Thanks.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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j/c
May I ask a question or two?
How will keeping both DA & BQ work out in the long run?
If we keep DA and he wins the starting job...we will esentially have a 6th round draft pick that was cut by the team that drafted him running the team while the 1st round pick, golden boy from Notre Dame roams the sidelines. Whatever DA does wrong will be magnified by the presence of BQ in the background. Media wise, things 'could' get ugly.
If we keep DA, and BQ wins the starting job...maybe we trade him during the season - probably for less than we could get in April. Or, he sits all season and leaves after the season because he wants to play - and we get nothing.
The only way this works is if BQ plays and stinks up the place. And that's nothing to hope for.
AL 29 76 14 R_K
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So basically.............you just want DA gone so BQ can have the job all to himself?
BTW--------when did Steinbach make the Pro Bowl?
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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How will keeping both DA & BQ work out in the long run?
Define "long run."
They can't co-exist in the long-run. When push comes to shove, one will stay, one will leave.
That moment won't happen this year Why? Because it doesn't have to, which is why I keep coming back to a situation where we Tender him, see whether or not Anderson is the right guy, then send one of the guys packing.
Let's set aside the obvious "worst case scenario" here, which is that both guys flop and we're doomed. That isn't even a consideration here, so we can go from there........
The next worst thing that happens is that we don't get as much for DA or Quinn as we could if we traded one of'em right now. But by waiting one more year, each guy represents insurance for the other, so we have the best chance at finding a long-term QB.
So is risking some draft points worth that tradeoff? It is to me. So Anderson gets Tendered, plays one more season, then either gets the long-term deal and Quinn is shipped out, or Anderson isn't the guy, he walks, and Quinn becomes the guy. It certainly doesn't hurt Quinn to ride the bench one more year, and it won't hurt Anderson to get more experience.
Of course then there's the possibility that Quinn beats out Anderson, in which case.....problem solved.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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1st, you responded but not to the question at hand.
...and 2nd, it was my understanding that ES was a past pro bowler but it was something that I did not research so I could be wrong.
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Timid did not have the tools that DA has. Thinking he could have improved enough to overcome his many weaknesses was a pipe dream.
I never claimed he did. I guess Peen's not the numb nuts, but I am because I've confused you both...lol. No Timid didn't have near the tools DA does, but he also didn't have the supporting cast either...........so expectations should be different between the 2...........wouldn't you agree?? Oh and yeah in retrospect it was a pipe dream, but with that crappy team me and Jesse had to have some way to keep hope alive....lol.
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Tim couldn't read defenses or coverages. He was horribly inaccurate, much moreso than DA.
Depends on what throw your talking about. Tim imo was more accurate than DA on his short stuff, both were equally inconsistent on their intermediate routes, and yep DA is hands down the more accurate passer on the deep ball. As far as the rest your right Tim had real problems that he never overcame, but that doesn't really mean DA doesn't have problems as well.
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However, I do think that if I noticed it, his coaches will notice it and they can do drills where he works on his footwork and can finish his throws.
That's my point bro...........you don't think that a coach all during high school, college (and he was coached by a guy who has produced other pro QBs) and the pros has already noticed it and they've tried to correct it??? Sometimes bro a guy get's rattled under pressure, and doesn't think about where his feet are, and from what I've seen of DA it's 2 things.............1) dude is really uncordinated when he is trying to throw on the run...lol. and 2) he is really rattled with any pressure. He makes almost all of his bad throws/INTs when he has ANY pressure applied to him........and bro this isn't something that has just come up he's had these same ???s since high school, therefore you better bet that another coach (including ours) has tried to work on it with him. I just don't think it's ever going to be fixed......maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it this time.
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But, when DAs mechanics were sound.....he delivered an extremely accurate pass under duress.
The problem there is your talking about 2 throws where there are countless other throws were he made horrible throws under duress. Again, can it be improved upon??? Maybe, but I I have serious doubts that it will be to anything close to being consistent
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am going to add one thing that you didn't. DA does struggle w/reading coverages. He actually proved to be very good at reading defenses, but he sometimes makes dumb throws into coverages.
I didn't mention it, because I saw improvement in this area, and I do believe that DA has and can continue to improve here.
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I really don't know if he can be a franchise QB, but he showed me enough that I believe he deserves the opportunity. Quinn may end up being better, but DA can do things that BQ can't dream of doing. I find that hard to ignore.
See I agree with everything here, but let me elaborate on why I am against signing DA long term. Basically, I do think DA can be successful with a strong supporting cast like he had this year ( I know 10 wins makes me Cpt. Obvious here...lol). I don't think DA is a franchise QB, because of the limitations I mentioned I think he HAS to have a strong supporting cast to be successful. DA is very likely to get big time QB money, and I just don't want to drop that kind of money with someone who imo isn't a guy you can win without studs all around him. Is BQ better?? Bro I have no idea, but I do know he's going to be alot cheaper for the foreseeable future, and with this talent on O around him I do believe he can put up similar (maybe somewhat worse, maybe somewhat better, but similar) results. I just don't want to overspend for someone who imo isn't going to be worth his contract, and then take the chance on him being benched next year and us getting ZERO in compensation for it.
PS............Bro it's aweful good to be talking football with you again.
Last edited by BigWillieStyle; 01/10/08 10:25 PM.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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This thread is almost at closure level so I'll chime in....... You people are all nuts. I don't remember this much arguing when we were wondering which one of our two mediocre QBs (TC and KH) was the answer way back when. By the end of next year, at the latest, this will all be solved. If I was betting money I'd bet on Quinn. But I'm not so I'll just wait and see. Everyone's blood pressure would be better off if they did the same.....
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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No Timid didn't have near the tools DA does, but he also didn't have the supporting cast either...........so expectations should be different between the 2...........wouldn't you agree??
Yes, I would agree.
Where we disagree is that I always knew Timid didn't have the skills to succeed, no matter the supporting cast. There were others who didn't see that.
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dude is really uncordinated when he is trying to throw on the run...lol.
Yes, he is. He won't improve there. I guess I just don't think him scrambling around and rolling out is as big of a deal as you guys do. Dudes got a gun. He doesn't need to make plays w/his feet. He just needs to improve his footwork w/in the pocket........the very same thing Manning and Brady worked on.
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he is really rattled with any pressure. He makes almost all of his bad throws/INTs when he has ANY pressure applied to him..
Yes, he does. It's my biggest concern w/him and that is why I am not ready to proclaim him as our franchise QB. Btw...........did you watch BQ in college when he was under pressure? LOL
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The problem there is your talking about 2 throws where there are countless other throws were he made horrible throws under duress. Again, can it be improved upon??? Maybe, but I I have serious doubts that it will be to anything close to being consistent
I've been kinda giving you the benefit of the doubt, but dude..........the guy threw 29 TDs; led us to 10 wins; threw 10 more TDs than picks; threw for almost 3800 yds; had a very good 3rd down conversion rate; did not have all that many 3 and outs; and didn't pad his stats w/dump offs on 3rd and long. Jesus man! You act like he had the stats Timid had.
He was productive! You guys are reaching. And reaching big time.
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See I agree with everything here, but let me elaborate on why I am against signing DA long term. Basically, I do think DA can be successful with a strong supporting cast like he had this year ( I know 10 wins makes me Cpt. Obvious here...lol). I don't think DA is a franchise QB, because of the limitations I mentioned I think he HAS to have a strong supporting cast to be successful. DA is very likely to get big time QB money, and I just don't want to drop that kind of money with someone who imo isn't a guy you can win without studs all around him. Is BQ better?? Bro I have no idea, but I do know he's going to be alot cheaper for the foreseeable future, and with this talent on O around him I do believe he can put up similar (maybe somewhat worse, maybe somewhat better, but similar) results. I just don't want to overspend for someone who imo isn't going to be worth his contract, and then take the chance on him being benched next year and us getting ZERO in compensation for it.
I understand that to a degree. But, I am going to tell you something. The money doesn't concern me nearly as much as production at the position. We do not know if BQ is a good NFL QB. I actually have more questions about his game than DAs. Not saying I prefer DA. Not at all. But, I want the BEST QB to play for the Browns and I think we should find out who that is before we dump one because of money or draft picks. The position is too important. We are lucky to have two guys who could both possibly become franchise guys. But, let's make sure we choose the right one.
Likewise, I would not trade BQ, as Peen suggested, because I think DA had to have another good year before we make him the guy. Hell, he might not even win the job in camp. I really have no idea. All I do know is that we better make the right decision on this. And I hope the powers that be has the stones to ignore the ramblings of an impatient and loud fan base.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Define "long run."
They can't co-exist in the long-run. When push comes to shove, one will stay, one will leave.
That moment won't happen this year Why? Because it doesn't have to, which is why I keep coming back to a situation where we Tender him, see whether or not Anderson is the right guy, then send one of the guys packing.
Just to play Devil's Advocate let me present this scenario, which I believe is plausible.....
We sign DA to a 5 year contract that does not break the bank. He is named the starter entering training camp. He gets more of the snaps and plays fairly well in the exhibition games.
Quinn is regularly passed over for time with starters although he plays well when he gets the chance and plays well with the backups. He outperforms DA statistically but isn't able to supplant him as the starter in the preseason.
Savage continues to exclaim that because of the contract there is no compelling reason to start Quinn. He needs to be on 55% of snaps to hit incentive numbers and is relegated to the bench by the team for as long as they wish.
Quinn becomes upset, blames his agent for the bad deal and hires a new agent. Then things start to get nasty.
Then what?
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Unfortunately I have spent the past four hours helping to beat the crap out of kids so I'm a little behind on my reading.  I will say this in DA's defense. As Attack has pointed out DA has a terrible comp.% on his short throws. I am happy with the numbers he puts up on the others in general. The thing that is most important to me is his completetion % on third downs and how many of them ended up in first downs. I can look it up but I don't feel like it now, I'm hungry. I can live with lower comp. % if it isn't killing drives. That I guess is also up for debate.
#gmstrong
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've been kinda giving you the benefit of the doubt, but dude..........the guy threw 29 TDs; led us to 10 wins; threw 10 more TDs than picks; threw for almost 3800 yds; had a very good 3rd down conversion rate; did not have all that many 3 and outs; and didn't pad his stats w/dump offs on 3rd and long. Jesus man! You act like he had the stats Timid had.
Bro I never said the guy sucks, and I could give a rat's ass about stats his or Tims.........I care about 1 QB stat INTs..........and him and Tim both stunk...lol. I think he had a very good year, and I applaude him for it, but I also know that he had a supporting cast around him that will be impossible to keep in 2 to 3 years with the contract we will have to give to keep him. I want to know if he can take lesser players at some positions and make htem better like a true Franchise QB can do........aka Brady, Manning, Favre, etc. Imo he can't becuase of his limitations. That doesn't take anything away from his strengths, but in all fairness I wouldn't have dropped big time money on Delhome either when he had his big year, becuase of signs that I saw in his game. It doesn't mean that you can't admire what either guy did without wanting to mortgage the future on a guy who isn't quite a franchise QB.
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he money doesn't concern me nearly as much as production at the position. We do not know if BQ is a good NFL QB. I actually have more questions about his game than DAs. Not saying I prefer DA. Not at all. But, I want the BEST QB to play for the Browns and I think we should find out who that is before we dump one because of money or draft picks. The position is too important. We are lucky to have two guys who could both possibly become franchise guys. But, let's make sure we choose the right one.
See the money bothers me if the guy isn't good enough to carry the franchise. That is where we disagree, because you think he has a lot better shot at overcoming his flaws than I do........we shall see. Imo if the FO doesn't think he's head and shoulders above the other guy. or that the other guy can put up similar numbers then your nuts not to make a deal and get extra resources to help improve the team. Like I said to Peen, neither you nor I see these 2 in practice every day, but Opie, RAC, and the coaching staff does. If they think BQ is capable of similar results then they would be stupid to not trade him and get something for him while the iron is hot. They would (in their opinion at least) not be giving up anything at the QB spot as far as production, and would get more picks to help a putrid D.
Anyway I've got to put the twins to bed bro (can you believe they are 2 now bud), but I enjoyed talking football with you bro and will check back tommorow
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I care about 1 QB stat INTs..
Well, I guess if that is the only stat you care about.........he does suck. *L*
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See the money bothers me if the guy isn't good enough to carry the franchise. That is where we disagree, because you think he has a lot better shot at overcoming his flaws than I do........we shall see.
No man. The guy proved he is good enough to win with. That is what matters. The defense sucked, bro. It wasn't DA who sucked. It wasn't the coaching. It was the defense. It's amazing how people are downplaying their role and overextending DAs role in our problems.
I think Savage will upgrade the defense. I doubted him before because of the WR/DB thing and no offensive line. But, he fixed the OL. He admitted his mistakes himself in the presser. He said it was wrong to have a stop gap approach and it was smarter to fix one or two areas at a time. The key is......he learned. Thus, I am confident he will improve the defense.
If he improves the defense, we can win w/DA. But again.............I ain't throwing my hat into his ring yet. I'm just trying to get you guys to realize that we need to let it play out.
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Anyway I've got to put the twins to bed bro (can you believe they are 2 now bud), but I enjoyed talking football with you bro
Good talking w/you, too. It's been awhile. And man........those two years went fast. How are the twins doing? Did they get into Christmas at all? Bro, spend as much time w/them as you can...........the years will go so fast that it will make your head spin.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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Just to play Devil's Advocate let me present this scenario, which I believe is plausible.....
So the Devis has a headquarters in Hawai'i.
I always knew the Devil was Japanese  (maybe only Hel will get that one)
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We sign DA to a 5 year contract that does not break the bank.
Eek.....we're off to a rough start with the "plausible" scenario, hehe.
IMHO, I think it highly unlikely that Anderson's agent would accept anything less than what Schaub got, because Matt didn't have the kind of year that DA had when he was traded for. Since Anderson is more of a proven comodity, the negotiations would at LEAST begin here: (courtesy of Rotoworld):
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3/21/2007: Schaub signed a six-year, $48 million contract. The deal includes $7 million in total guarantees and pays $20 million in the first three seasons. Schaub is due a $10 million option bonus in the spring of 2010.
Now the way that deal is structured does give the Texans the chance to eat much of the contract without dying if Matt bombs (only $7 million guaranteed), but the kicker here is that Anderson's agent won't want the Browns determining where his client goes. He'll want the kind of money that essentially guarantees he's the starter. But we'll say the above is what Anderson gets, just for the sake of your point.
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Savage continues to exclaim that because of the contract there is no compelling reason to start Quinn.
I can't see a scenario where any GM in the league would make that statement to the public, the player, or his agent. However, let's just say that Savage is THINKING it
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Quinn becomes upset, blames his agent for the bad deal and hires a new agent. Then things start to get nasty.
Then what?
Quinn has a new agent but can't beat out Anderson, who's locked up for numerous years. He's mad.
To be blunt, he has zero leverage, and therefore can make all the noise he wants about wanting out, but in the end, he has no choice but to ride the bench. He can threaten to sit out, but that won't do anything for his career. He won't be getting practice time, will have alienated himself from his team, his organization, and sullied his reputation throughout the league. He'll be viewed as a selfish guy, making organizations weary of dealing for him. So he'll ride the bench for the term of his contract, which is:
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Signed a five-year, $9.2 million contract. The deal includes $7.75 million in guarantees. Another $11 million is available though escalators in 2010 and 2011 based on Quinn taking at least 55% of the snaps in each of the first two years or at least 70% in his third season. Another $9.8 million is available, but is unlikely to be earned. 2007: $285,000 (+ $862,000 roster bonus), 2008: $1.43 million (+ $4.3 million roster bonus due in March), 2009: $1.72 million, 2010: $2.08 million, 2010: $700,000, 2011: Free Agent
Again, courtesy of Rotoworld.
From what I read of this, the only real money that could cause a problem is that $4.3 mil roster bonus due in a few months, but in today's NFL, that's chump change. He has zero leverage, and could do nothing short of ride out the contract for as long as the Browns choose to hold onto him. That means 2011 
The LIKELY scenario is that once Anderson signs the contract extension, Quinn is immediately shipped out IF the Browns get a good offer. They simply won't hold a player prisoner. That isn't how this organization has conducted itself in the past. Now they won't GIVE him away, but they'd look to get back what they invested in him, and a Quinn who's sat on the bench for a couple of seasons and learned is more valuable than a green Quinn who's just coming into the league. In a world where there isn't enough solid QB play, Quinn would fetch a 1st round pick, and he'd be moved to a team ready for a new starter.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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The Devis does have a headquarters in Hawaii....how did you know the great devious one had shortened his name to Devis? Scary.... I actually agree with everything you said. The end.
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Sorry, but I think you are both out to pasture. When a guy like DA can be extremely accurate on tough throws, he sure as hell can become more accurate on easier throws. DA is extremely accurate when his feet are set. However, there are times when he gets his feet too close together and opens up his left shoulder. This causes the ball to go wide, either because of him following the motion through, or because he tries to sling it.
The reason for the poor mechanics is when he gets pressure up the middle
Ahhh Horsepucky...
WTF is wrong with you...Besides being PIG-HEADED...BLIND...And WRONG...
That Southern sun's fryin' what's left of those cells in thy head...
Let's Go to the Video Tape...
Presssure up the middle???...Pffffft...There prolly ain't a QB in the NFL that saw LESS this year...
U tellin' us that his -poor throws on those 7-15 yard slants and in's were wide right...Wide left...LOW...Because he was pressured???
Vers...The fact he can improve is debateable...The fact he is WAY OFF on those tosses IS NOT...
Derrick Anderson left more yards on the field this year than prolly 80% of all QB's...He has a serious problem with leading receivers across the field...Hell...He misses a guy STANDING THERE more often than not...U can't see that it's YOUR problem...
Don't even tell me all the times the camera hits Winslow & Brey after one of those chitty tosses and they're wingin' their arms in the air that they're po'd cause they dropped it...Don't take a Rocket Science Degree to tell they're PO'd cause where the damn ball was...THEY know yards are left on the field...And it's ANDERSON'S FAULT...
Lose the Accuracy arguement and u might just start makin' SENSE...
He threw ALOT of great passes...His BEST is the 20 yarder down the seam...Those posts to Brey & Winslow are a thing of beauty...It's WHY we had a CHANCE every 3rd and long...And I agree...We haven't had that kinda HOPE in a long ass time...But that ain't the entire game of football...
How long r u gonna keep spewin' this BS after he's GONE???...Cause I'm tellin' ya' right now...Anderson WILL NOT be signed long term in Cleveland this year...There's is NO WAY these guys would come out indicating he's the starting QB of this team in 2008 BEFORE having a long-term deal SIGNED AND SEALED...Anderson's Agent filed this week away for future use...WATCH...
Also watch for this word to come out..."LOW-BALLED",,,Cause Anderson's agent is goin' for between Schaub and Romo money...And he ain't gettin' it here...
Go Browns!!!
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I'd allready listed what Schaub got. Here's Romo's:
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10/29/2007: Signed a six-year, $67.4 million contract extension through 2013. The deal included an $11.5 million signing bonus and contains $30 million in total guarantees. His 2008 base salary is guaranteed and $6 million of his 2009 salary is guaranteed. 2007: $6 million, 2008: $6.5 million, 2009: $7 million, 2010: $8.5 million, 2011-2012: $9 million, 2013: $11.5 million, 2014: Free Agent
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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So before the refs put this thread on lock, here's what I forsee (in case anyone cares)...
DA is due to become a RFA on February 29. Savage and his agent will "work" to get a deal in place before then but, like some of you have suggested, his agent will want far more than what Savage is willing to shell out. Leap Day comes and DA hits the RFA market with a 2.5 mill high tender because that was the only avenue both sides could agree on. Whether or not someone else ponies up for him can be left up to debate at that time. But I don't see the two sides agreeing to the kind of money DA's agent is going to ask for. He is only going to do his job to make sure DA gets paid handsomely and have a nice fat long-term contract. If he doesn't get it here, he probably thinks that he can get it somewhere else. He may be right too. If nothing else, DA stays here for a year, collects his 2.5 mill and then hits the open FA market next spring and we get nothing. This is the only reason I could see Phil bending on the money issue and trying to get him signed before he becomes a RFA, but I think it's gonna be tough-sledding through negotiations. Expect this to drag out until the last possible moment. Whew, that's a lot of DA "deadbate" threads from now until then. 
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Interesting article on the DA/BQ
wonderings of next year
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![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)
