DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What If?

I think that's a given. We will never win more than 1 game in those first 6. the Miami game was always the first for one of the rookies

I can see those records as real possibilities. What we need is to field some folks who can catch the ball, another who can kick instead of cutting our throats. Flacco gave us enough to win. I heard it said before, that coaches and QB's are similar in how fans treat them and the team's record: they get way too much credit for the wins and way too much blame for the losses.
I do not have the "Then what" reaction that you lay out. Changing from a proven vet to two unproven records of rookies isn't the fix for Sunday's loss. We played Watson too long so we "could see what we really had" and it wasn't enough. And we plugged other QB's in and let them fail the team regularly.
I am not that curious. Fix ST play, use JF better than this play caller did. To let rookies force changes and declare our "mission is clear" is poor judgment, and it is not my mission. What is good enough to let Flacco perform? Injury? Sure. Sounds like an agenda to play a rookie you like. I prefer to keep an eye on our performance rather than digging for changing QB's. We obviously see this differently. If the subs fail, "what then"? No guarantee they will perform in a superior way.

I think it depends far more on the development of DG than the record. We saw him play against backups, not starters. The speed of the game is different. I advocate you make a change at QB according to the play of the QB. If Flacco is still playing like he did this past Sunday I think it would be foolish to pull him from the starting line up.

That being said I don't think at his age Flacco will be able to play solid for a 17 game season. I think the point will come that it will be the right call to start DG. When that point comes should be decided by the play of Flacco. I think a QB should lose their starting position based on their play not have it taken from them due to no fault of their own.

Our bye is Week 9. If we want to see DG during the season, I wouldn't want him in until he gets extended practice reps.

I'll also go back to something I mentioned in another thread. If our offense hasn't established any sort of identity by the end of week 8, I'm not sure how much good it will do to throw a rookie QB into the mix. If our run game is still sputtering after Judkins gets up and running, or worse, if starting Oline start going down then I would be REALLY hesitant putting one of our rookies out there as it's essentially using them as cannon fodder.

Dillon Gabriel is not a starter level QB in the NFL. If this scenario plays out the Browns need to fire both Berry and Stefanski and promote Jim Schwartz to head coach.

Ok wait and see then. He was projected to be a 6th round pick that was reached for. But you think he can be Tom Brady. Well see!!!

First nobody made anything close to the claim he can be the next Tom Brady. That's just something you made up.

Secondly you claim he was "projected to be a sixth round draft pick". Which is true. But that was by people who don't have a job in the NFL. You know, the very same people who "projected" Sanders would be a first round pick.

You may wish to think about how wrong they were about Sanders before you pretend those same people have credibility in regards to DG.

I don't think Sanders plays any part in the equation as of now. More of a project that may or may not reach being an NFL QB. That can change if he develops over time. If both Flacco and DG were injured it wouldn't surprise me if the Browns quickly signed someone on the couch to start the same way they did Flacco.

Exactly. Miami to me has always been the game where it makes the most sense to turn it over to Gabriel.

Haslam has even said as much about both rookies playing:

However, Haslam made it clear during his camp conversation he believes it's important that the rookies be evaluated in a game situation. That's especially true with the looming 2026 draft question.

"Absolutely. Absolutely," Haslam said. "But, I mean, Kevin is aware of that. He knows how important quarterback is, and he and Andrew talk about those kinds of things all the time. It’s a daily ongoing conversation."

I think he made it clear they needed to play this season at some point. At what point was never clarified.

I think we will be 1-5 or 0-6 after those games. Losing Sunday the way we did really hurt our chances. Tough game this week and the 3 NFC North teams we play in this stretch we never beat. Our Lifetime records against them is atrocious. At some point we have to see what we have in Dillon or Shadeur so we can make prudent decisions for the future. Now, if by some miracle we manage to win at least 3 games in that stretch then I would stay with Joe because we'd be in the playoff hunt.

I think we'll be 2-4, maybe 3-3. I think our defense is going to keep us in all the games. The offense will sputter. But regardless if we're 0-6 or 3-3, I actually think we'll see Gabriel in the 1st half of the season if for no other reason than I bet Joe is going to get hurt at some point. He's 40 and someone on the line in front of him is going to get hurt at some point. Plus, a big part of this season is seeing what we've got before next draft. I think that's going to become increasingly front-brain as the season continues. 6 games and you're already 1/3 of the way into the season. They absolutely must get one or both of those guys into real games at some point during the season.

I'm not going to predict how the rookies will do but I personally think Gabriel is likely going to do better earlier than Sanders would and I think Ski likes his head-set and experience better. He's #2 on the depth chart for a reason regardless of what folks on a chat board believe. Sanders may or may not have a higher ceiling but Gabriel's coming off the bench 1st. Won't be one bit surprised if that's the Miami game regardless of record.

I think once Judkins starts playing the offense will change dramatically when we can actually run the ball again. Then those deeper passes will open up and all this dink and dunk should ease up a bit. Kevin needs to let Joe rip some balls down field. If all he is going to do is dink and dunk no matter what then might as well let DG play now. I am not going to panic unless we lose week three though. I don't feel it's realistic to beat Baltimore because their QB can just about beat the Browns all on his own.

Still it would be sweet if the Browns beat the Ravens and shoved their celebration over stealing our team a giant middle finger. May Model burn forever ...

If the Browns start 0-6 or 1-5 and Flacco the only real NFL QB on the team is benched Stefanski and Berry needs fired and just promote Jim Schwartz. I would rather see DeShawn Watson again this year than Gabriel or Sanders.

Your comment that he was projected as a 6th round pick made me look up old draft projections. 6th round seemed like a big stretch compared to my memory. I'm not saying the Browns didn't overdraft him, but can you share a site that had him in round 6?

I searched and found 5 draft sites, all but two had him projected as a 4th rounder, the last 2 rated him as 4th or 5th round. These were legit sites, like SI, NFL, Draft Buzz, Bleacher Report & PFF.

It's water under the bridge now, but exaggeration such as this seems like it's agenda driven.

You people pushing for Gabriel to play must have really enjoyed watching DTR play last season. Gabriel is too short, too small, and to weak armed to amount to anything in the NFL. It was a terrible pick when it was made and it will be a worse pick when/if he has to play. Should have kept Pickett.

Watson will start

Ok we will wait to see him become Tom Brady then. I just don't see it ever!!!

RAZOR! Good to see you, Dawg,

Years ago, I wrote a limerick. Its wording was a bit different back then, because it was penned while Art Model was still alive.
I'll share with you, my revised version:

"I believe (as my friends all know well)
There exists both a Heaven and hell.
And I'm sure there's a spot
In that place that is hot
That's now home to that ass**** Modell.

Rest in pieces, Art.

The problem, at least if we conduct practice as normally happens during the season, DG won't get many reps. As I understand it, the back-up only gets 8-9 reps per practice.

That said, we might ramp those up some as we get a little deeper in to the season. Joe is a seasoned vet and at the age where a little extra rest will only do him some good.

Being the forever optimist, We could at that point still go 11-6 or 10-7. I mean if Joe isn't the problem, I don't see KS changing anything.,

Now, if we are sitting at 8 losses early on, Yeah, why not see what we have with the other two guys. Just to see!

I agree. He might become as good as Tom Brady, but probably not. But until you actually play the guy who knows how good or bad he will eventually become?

Joe knows the score here. He knows that we will eventually phase in DG. I think it could happen by week 4 or 5. Not so much to start, but when we get in to the 4th qtr of games are are down by 17, put him in.

Bro, I apologize if it seems like I’m trying to bag on you, because I’m not. But between Gabriel and Judkins, it seems like you have your mind made up when the rest of us are all just trying to say “Why don’t we give these guys a chance before we draw a conclusion?”

It's silly to project ANY rookie QB to be the next Tom Brady...I don't care if it's the first pick or last. Hell...Tom Brady wasn't Tom Brady when HE was drafted.

You obviously haven't watched any film on Gabriel. He has plenty of arm strength. And you obviously haven't bothered reading the thread as per usual. I stated plainly that I don't think Gabriel should be handed the job. That as long as Flacco is playing well he will have earned the right to continue as the starter. That he shouldn't have the job taken from him if he is playing well.

Also in the thread it was shown that it's Haslam and Berry who have told Stefanski that the rookies need to play this year, not us. The actual question being discussed in this thread is when, not if.

You're welcome.

I have seen him play in college but I haven't watched film so I will take your expertise and now can't wait for the 2nd coming of Tom Brady to take the reins in Cleveland.

The only person who has brought the name Tom Brady into this discussion is you. And this makes the third time now. It's not as cute as you think it is.

He is like all rookie QB's to a great extent. In his case he has a great skill set. That is no indication as to how that skill set will translate in the NFL.

Nobody has indicated otherwise with the exception of your rambling nonsense. Same as it ever was.

I was told on posts that experts were wrong about him that the Browns did not severely reach for him when he was drafted in the 3rd round. Although he was projected to be a 6th round pick. That he has a record-breaking arm. Had the most college starts in history and is very smart because of all those college games played. Has a great skill set. That I must not have watched tape on him because if I would have I would not say he was a bad pick. I'm excited now that those that watched tape have placed their seal of approval on a player that was a huge reach in the draft and because they know that the Browns front office is smarter than all other NFL teams.

What you were told, because I'm the one one told you this, is that you used the fact that "draft experts" had him projected later doesn't really mean much. As a prime example I pointed out that Sanders was projected to be a first round pick and wasn't drafted until the fifth round. That;s simply a fact. The speed of his pass did set a record.

The only seal of approval anyone gave him is that he has a great skill set. That he has the mental part down. That his tape looks good. That he has a lot pf staring experience. All of which is 100% true. None of that means guaranteed success in the NFL. And nobody said that either.

How much have you had to drink today?

Ok, I can't wait to watch him play. I will gladly eat crow if proven wrong, but I won't forget what some experts on here had to say about this great QB draft pick. I am just surprised that the Browns did not cut Flacco and are start this legend to be game 1. You know they made such a great choice for kicker! Picking the right QB was just too easy for them.

You can't even seem to remember what we have said now, much less then. Nobody said he was "this great QB draft pick" either. I'll ask again, how much have you had to drink today? It seems you are surprised by not only the things you have seen but even by the things you haven't seen and just made up in your head.

It may be prudent to do research before making comments you are unable to prove.

At the Senior Bowl practice DG threw a ball 74.9 mph.

The record held before Gabriel was Josh Allen at 62.

https://www.si.com/college/oregon/f...s-prospects-quarterback-preview-practice

In addition he is second in total yards in the history of college football. And is the most experienced college qb to enter the NFL.

Everything stated can be verified.

Conclusions drawn from personal opinion are not based in fact.

Ok so he is as good as or better than Josh Allan. Great. Let's Go!!!

Yet again nobody said that.

You're really going to be embarrassed tomorrow when you read that crap sober.

I'm sober. I read that he broke a Josh Allan record, and he threw for more yards than all other QB's except 1 in the history of college football, and he is the most experienced college QB ever. Sounds like a can't miss project. He is going to be so great!!!!! What am I missing oh he is waaaayyyy under sized!!! Can't forget that TINY detail.

The throw speeds were captured using 2 different methods of measurement. It's not really an apples to apples comparison.

Senior bowl uses an RFID chip inside the ball. Allen's was from the combine with a radar gun. Think the difference is something along the lines of instantaneous vs sustained velocity. Throw in that the RFID chip is rotating with the ball and might be some angular acceleration in the mix. Or there might just be a tighter interval with the RFID. I.e, for this 3 millisecond period it reached a max velocity of 74.9 mph. While for the entire flight it may have averaged a slower speed.

Having said that, Gabriel can put plenty of zip on it. I don't think he has Josh Allen's cannon, though.

He's played at that size his whole career. Physical specimens can and do fail. Can the guy play or not? We'll see.

If the team is so bad that he has to play and if he is terrible then Stefanski needs to go and so does Berry.

There is no such thing as a "can't miss prospect" at the QB position in any draft. And once again you are the only one who said that. There are facts and indicators that you can look at in order to rate and decide where a draft pick should be drafted. In this case that was determined to be the third round. Considering the odds of a third round draft pick ever becoming a starting NFL QB he has pretty good odds. But those odds are small. That's why he fell to the third round.

Once again you are the only one who is saying what I quoted above. If you truly are sober I fell sorry for you. I was trying to provide you with an excuse for your posts today.

He's going to play because we need to see what he can do. Flacco is not the future.

So, DOTD, what YOU are now saying, since you take things out of context, is that Berry and Stefanski have come to the point where their careers hang in balance based on a 3rd round prospect? It doesn’t matter if the defense jumps to a top 3 status in large part because of Berry’s first two draft picks this year? What if Judkins, when he finally plays, steps in and reminds us of Nick Chubb? Will any of that matter, or does it come down to the evaluation of a 3rd round draft pick?

My new nickname for you is clickbait, I can’t wait to see what you write about how I’ve already inaugurated the above to factual status. Obviously I took some extreme examples of something that is possible to happen to sensationalize my post, but I’m sure it will give you ample subject matter to make a new profound statement, I’m waiting on the edge of my seat…

No what I am saying is if the Browns are so bad they have to bench Joe Flacco the only QB on the roster that gives them a chance at winning and then their pick at QB Gabriel does not play well they have to go. We do not want the duo that reached for a midget QB picking the next franchise QB. Also, how much faith do you have in them they will get that pick right? Especially after watching their choice in kicker do what he did last week.

This can be debated depending on the angle you take.

The Browns drafting has been solid for the past couple years.

Hahahahaha I love it!!!

Just for the record I prefer QBs who are at least 6 foot 4 or higher. It's so hard to see over offensive linemen if you are shorter than that. Any QB shorter than 6'4 is most likely throwing blind unless they plan out the blocking assignments to create vision tunnels for the QB. Both DG and SS have a problem seeing over tall offensive linemen. Neither of them can see around that big Left Tackle we have starting atm. There is a reason shorter offensive linemen who play well are premium players.

Joel Bitonio: 6'4"
Jack Conklin: 6'6"
Ethan Pocic: 6'4"
Wyatt Teller: 6'4"
KT Leveston: 6'4"
Dawand Jones: 6'8"
Cornelius Lucas: 6'8"

Both our young QBs are throwing blind so their height doesn't really matter because they are both too short to see over an offensive line where the shortest guy is so much taller than they are. We got some BIG BOYS on that offensive line. Joe Flacco is our ONLY QB who can see over them.

They didn't reach for a midget. They drafted him based on where they rated him, based on the characteristics they cared about. If he were taller, they'd probably have drafted him sooner, but height isn't the only part of the evaluation. Some people seem to put way too much weight on it.

"We" don't want you picking the next QB or picking the picker of the next QB. I have more faith in them than whoever Haslam would tap next. Hopefully, they already found the franchise QB regardless of your constant disparagement of his height. All the highly touted college QBs looked pretty rough this week.

Kickers miss kicks. It happens. I've yet to see one go 100% for his career. If you know an available kicker that has and will never miss a single kick, we're all ears.

The OL are taking up the exact same amount of space no matter who is throwing the ball. All QBs have to find throwing lanes. All QBs have their vision blocked at times.

Yet, the game isn't played by OL standing straight up in a solid wall all the time, either. Gabriel can see just fine over a squatting center. Perhaps having a shorter QB will lead to them staying low and playing with better leverage.

All QBs have to piece together what they can see once things start moving.

Dillon deserves a shot to see what he can do like anyone else. After a solid body of work a fair assessment can be made.

I hope neither get their shot this year, as that will mean the team has something to play for and Flacco is healthy and productive. Plus, it rarely works well when rookie QB(s) are pressed into starting roles. Rarely for any team and never for us.

I know you think Gabriel will be the next Tom Brady. I don't see it. I saw the pick six and the fumble he caused in the preseason. I saw a QB mot good enough to go pro early and had to change teams 3 times. Bottom line is he is not very good. It was the worst pick in this year's draft by far. a 3-round reach for a QB that has no chance to be anything other than a backup for his career.

Once again you are the only one on this board who has said that. i believe this is the fourth time in fact. Why do you continue to tell that lie?


Did you also see the perfectly executed two minute drill for a TD?


He started for all three of those teams and chose to change schools. Do you even try to fact check the crap you spew?


What network pays you to evaluate QB'S? Do you work for an NFL team in the scouting department? If you think that's true what about that fifth round pick for a QB? Worst pick in this years draft? So it won't be a first or second round pick at QB who bombs for some other team?

You are hilarious!

Time will prove one of us right!!! I am confident how about you?

And it starts. Everybody’s favourite QB: the backup.

In this case, it’s kind of hard to argue though. Not just 0-2, 0-2 in the division. No offense, but championship level defensive play. I truly believe Flacco gives us the best chance to win… yet we aren’t winning with him. It might be time for one of the rooks to prove me wrong.

On a side note, I didn’t hate Judkins game today. I see a guy that if given 20 carries might start to wear down defenses.

Browns are desperate for O-Line help, WR help and it’s time to see if that is also QB help, which most of us believe is the case.

We have a 12% chance to make the playoffs… that 12% might be by changing QBs.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. I know it’s early, but… 12% chance, at least give us 12% by making a change.

Yeah Irish, Joe gives us the best chance to win and we have no wins. A lot of this isn’t his fault though. But do we really want to put in a rookie QB?

He’s starting now because we need a vet in there.

Run game needs to get going. That's the engine in the KS offense, and the broadcast kept harping on Baltimore's defensive alignment begging us to beat them on the ground.

I wouldn't make the change until our game against Miami ... think about the schedule before then:

Green Bay .. thats a disaster to start a rookie
at Detroit ... same
Minnesota .. thats an international game against a great D
at Pittsburgh ... lol no

One reason we need him right now is for the growth of a lot of our younger guys on offense. Don't forget we have rookies playing major time at 2RB's a starting tight end, 1st time LT, Young WR's , and a 3rd rookie RB in Sanders.

Even if the team falls on its face during this initial stretch, part of Flacco's role here is to absorb that so the rookies don't have to.

Now all you have to do is make up some BS that I'm claiming. To be right I would have to be making a claim about something. You're the one making all the claims.

So tell me, did I say he would be a successful NFL starter? No I didn't. As a matter of fact as a third round draft pick at the QB position historically his odds are very low. I'm quite confident that he isn't the worst pick in the draft and it will be shown you're wrong about that one.

If ANY QB drafted before him flops, and I'm sure at least one of them will, that alone means that team spent more for a QB that busted than the Browns did Gabriele even if he busts.

That's pretty much the only claim I've made. It's you who have been making all of the claims.

I don't want to ruin either of the rookie QB's by putting them under fire against such tough teams in the very beginning. I think Joe should start through game 6 regardless as long as he's healthy enough to suit up. Throughout life I have learned it's better to play the long game than sell yourself short for instant gratification. Starting a rookie QB before they're ready to start is the most often misguided and sure fire way to ruin them right out of the gate. Just look at what Darnold is doing now verses what happened early in his career due to them rushing him on to the field.

I'm not saying Gabriel will be a Sam Darnold. I'm just saying to give him a fighting chance I don't want to see him be named the starter before he's ready. Putting him in at spot duty like they did yesterday and gradually increasing his role may be the best path forward.

Agreed. Our next 4 games are tough and we'll probably be no better than 1-5 when we're done with them. Unless it's garbage time I wouldn't start Dillon until the Miami game.

what's the spread of the GB game? gotta be 10 I'd say

Detroit will be similar .. Minnesota we'll be underdogs, same with Pittsburgh

After that, I'd be OK with going to Gabriel

But I also think we should put in Gabriel in garbage time of the next few games

I have NOT been impressed in Minnesota, but they have a pretty decent defense.

GB 8.5 spread

Dillon G isn't a rookie anymore- he's gone against our number one D some, he's played in garbage time, he has SIX years of high level college time.....Flacco knows about pro ball more,BUT he is just a TARGET now, AND our line hasn't shown it can give him much TIME- AS KS, I'd start Dillon now, why not- everyone sees us as 1-5 at best--we are NOT a playoff team, so why play Flacco. The more time evaluating Dillon CAN'T hurt-- we have multiple ones next year to continue the rebuilt-- we are young now, GO younger....Go Browns!!!

DG is STILL a rookie, both literally and figuratively and Especially because he’s a QB.

Yep, get D G in soon, he has shown his maturity and he wants to go.

There are valid points on both sides on putting Dillon in right away. I for one would love to see what we have in him because he has shown some promise. However, I don’t feel this week is a good time. Green Bay may have the best D in football and it would probably be a beat down for him. I don’t want to see him take a beating. The next few weeks are a little better but not much. We should be prudent with him.

As lamp pointed out, every player in his first NFL season is a rookie. It is in fact their rookie season. That's the very definition of a rookie. Very few rookie QB's, even first rounders are ready to start in the NFL that by game three and most not even buy game six. Many of them have been ruined by taking your advice. Waiting until we get to the softer part of the schedule for him to start will give him the best odds of success rather than throwing him into the fire by endangering his success against some of the top teams in the NFL to start off with.

I understand we live in a world where people expect instant gratification but often times we find that ends up being short sighted and counterproductive.

If Gabriel gives us a better chance to win then he should start...I don't GAS that he's a rookie. And NO I am not opining that he gives us a better chance to win. Unfortunately I don't think AB/KS know who does either.

The last rookie QB who played here did quite well.

I think not pointing out the difference between Baker and Gabriele is shortsighted. Baker was the #1 overall pick in the draft. Gabriel was a third round selection. That's a huge difference.

Here is where I am with the quandary..

I fully believe Flacco gives us the best chance to win.. unfortunately, in the first two games, he hasn't done enough to ensure we win. The first game wasn't totally his fault, but the second, he really didn't do much to help.

If I'm wrong, and there is a really good chance I am, and Gabriel (or Sanders for that matter) give us a better chance, then they need to be in there. I understand the theory that sitting improves the odds. However, there are more than enough examples of rookies stepping in and succeeding, simply because they are good enough and belong in this league. Why waste another 3-4 games just because of the opponent they are facing? He sure looked like he belonged last week.. even if it was garbage time.

I fully agree with starting Flacco this week against the Packers, but I would have a very short leash on him and if I made the switch this week again, I would keep it that way moving forward. At least, not go back to Flacco, maybe if Gabriel didn't immediately step up, give Sanders a chance. If neither do for the rest of the season, as it seems to get easier, then we know to invest in the off-season. I don't want to waste another season, not knowing if we have a gem already on the roster. It might not be fair to either Gabriel or Sanders, but in most cases, they would never have had this opportunity to begin with. They don't have to ball out, they need to show consistency and have an aptitude to read a defense and not cost the team with bad mistakes. On the other hand, Gabriel may take the opportunity and not look back. If that happened, then they could use the draft picks to build the team the right way. It doesn't mean I would still look to improve the position in the off-season, but it might help with a high draft pick decision down the line.