DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Iranian War

I certainly agree with you that there have been quite a few mishaps but I suppose it's possible I don't see that as unusual as you might. I think that's just a symptom of war as it always has been. I know people probably expected me to jump on the "trash trump train" as it pertains to this but war has always been messy and filled with mishaps.

At least speaking for myself that's why I'm always so skeptical of war and only feel it should be used as a last resort. I don't feel that's the case here.

I feel as though Ukraine set the bar on this.

I don't think the military has under performed. It's bombed the crap out of its targets, sunk the navy.

What it can't do is fight a guerilla war without boots on the ground. Iran is vast. They are hunkered down and obviously prepared to fight this sort of war. And they've clearly also thought about strategy, the impact to the US and Israel of hitting the Strait of Hormuz and also hitting it's neighbours.

I think this paragraph by Pit probably sums it up... And it's not a failure of the military because I'd bet my house that many many many individuals warned about what has happened, but Hegseth and Trump in their ego-mania wouldn't listen. Drunk on the previous Iran strike and their military action in Venezuela. Both went off without any blowback or a hitch.

I'm glad I stopped by here to read, for a change. I'm not sure I can agree with this post much more than I do.

There are some caveats and "yeah, but maybe" moments, but ^ that's ^ the nutshell version.

What pisses me off, literally, is that there was never any real exit strategy *if* there was no plan to chop off the head. And no plan can be effective without one.

If there isn't already a new regime lying in wait, you're just spoon-feeding a never-ending cycle. Only thing that changes is being "nuke-ready" will take place on an ever-quickening timetable.

We didn't think this whole thing through very well. We convinced ourselves that overwhelming force and the "epic fury" at which we administered it would be enough. The snake is still slithering.

And now Trump is caught with his pants down. His only hope to avoid "forever war" is to root out the snake by installing a new regime. I'm not sure how that's possible without boots on the ground.

So today just after the stock market bell closed trump again extended the deadline with Iran-this time for 10 days till April 6.
Just after the Nasdaq moved into correction territory after taking another bath today.

Somebody on CNN referred to one of the financial services companies and their advise to their advisors based on the trump taco chart. Every time it the market is pricing in whatever "strategy" trump is working on at that present time and the market it crapping, they advise their investors that trumo is going to change his mind. Their chart said this afternoon that trump was going to change on Iran and not bomb the energy or power plants.

But I have to wonder, is this just market manipulation, are the talks really progressing or is an attack coming sooner or later?

Also Axios is reporting tonight that a ground invasion seems imminent at some point and we are expanding areas that we could attack with ground forces.

And in that meeting yesterday, alot of people with R after their name were really pissed off at what is coming. Nancy Mace said that we want to send in the troops. They say that this is a red line in the sand-I don't think they have the guts to agree with the dems on some oversight on this or to cut he purse strings.

OMG, Fate’s gone rogue on us.

Or…….
Has he?

To me - this is like a symptom of Trump. I don't know if I can explain this very well - but he's conducting himself in the same way with Iran that he has with every other major talking point or policy. He fires from the hip, he contradicts himself, he says one thing then does another .... when it winds up the Democrats and "libtards" on immigration or the border or tariffs or whatever - then the R's love it. Think it's genius. Think that he's scripted it all out to get what he wants ...

With Iran there have been constant contradictions. Go back 9 months or whatever and their Nuclear capability and enriched uranium was completely and utterly obliterated. That's changed now. We've won. That's changed now. Their ability to launch missiles was destroyed. That changed. Regime change with Trump influencing the successor was the goal - that has changed now. No wars - that has changed now (Bigly). Rubio said that it was Israel that forced our hand - that changed quickly (no doubt because it made Trump look weak).

I do think that at the end of the day the market - the economy - Trump and Trump's circle of associates making money is the single most important thing to Trump (other than his image/ego). I think when markets tank - he reacts. IN some cases I think he clearly enables others (and himself) to profit from his reaction. $1/2 Billion bet on oil futures in a QUANTUM spike in trades ... minutes before his last announcement. That might explain some of what we have seen.

But the reality is - driven by ego - he may also think that he has egg on his face after declaring he is negotiating with Iran. I mean that was a contradiction inside the space of 2 paragraphs: There's no-one left to talk to, they are all dead. We are talking to a top guy, the negotiations are going great. . . . and then Iranian sources (everywhere) mocked him and said there is no negotiation and increased their military strikes on Israel and neighbors.

We could see boots on the ground and an escalation. We might see a claim that objectives are complete and he backs out claiming a win. We could see his 15 point negotiation (where points 1-2-3 are all "never have nuclear weapons" !!) put in place - and essentially something similar to the Obama deal that he trashed in his first term put back in place ... we just don't know. I am not sure he knows.

I do think that the wanna-be He-Man Hegseth thinks this is some sort of video game and has zero regard for loss of life or long term consequences and all he wants to do it flex and show the world how mighty the US military is.

We just need to make sure they are pretty much neutered completely. We have been dorking around with that regime for over 40 years.

Better this that giving them $billions so they can fund their proxies around the globe. LOL, and to think some people around here insisted we were still in control of the money.

And just think things were under control until trump ripped up the nuclear deal with Iran.

And just think, in 1953 we worked to topple their democratically elected government to install the Shah of Iran.

History didn't just start in 1979. But that seems to be the story we keep hearing from a certain constituency.

trump blocked the bipartisan immigration bill so he could fix it.

Are you completely sure it was a miscalulation? I would like to think it was but honestly, when I listen to Hegseth, I get the feeling that might have been his "Alpha Male" side coming out.. So I wonder?

https://share.google/UIBxMkGOnJtwSBHU9

Trump helping Putin in Ukraine.... Again.

That's idiotic.

"lets go blow up a school, that might be cool" Right.

Maybe so... Look at how that idiot Hegseth talks about No Mercy and such.. He's the guy that the National Guard reassigned as a "Inside Threat" as a Major.. He's not right in the head.. Not at all. And we all know Trump isn't right in the head either.

Look, I'm not saying this as fact.. I have no way of knowing what they were thinking. But I also haven't heard that they acknowledged it was us that hit that school and I've not heard them apologize for it or show any remorse of any kind

So scoff at my thought all you want. Belittle it all you want... But dismissing it as Idiotic is, Well, that would be Idiotic!

Just my opinion, but I think just throwing the idea that you think it might be possible that it was deliberate is crazy and loses credibility for other things that you might then write. Just how I see it

And I should add, I couldn't have a lower opinion of Hegseth. I wouldn't trust him to babysit my kids for 5 minutes while I nipped to the store.

The real reason is probably just as bad-we had bad intelligence and old maps. That school had been a school for more than 10 years-

And then when it comes out-we lie and say they did it to themselves-yea, we sell the iranians tomahawks-

France confirms oil crisis, says 30-40 percent of Gulf energy infrastructure destroyed



France's Finance Minister Roland Lescure revealed on Wednesday that between 30 and 40 per cent of Gulf refining capacity has been damaged or destroyed by Iran's retaliatory strikes, leaving a shortage of 11 million barrels a day on global oil markets. Lescure warned it could take up to three years to restore damaged facilities, and several months to restart those that were urgently shut down.

Meanwhile, Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni has travelled to Algeria for emergency energy talks, seeking to secure increased gas deliveries to Italy as the country scrambles to replace lost LNG supplies from Qatar.

With fossil fuel supplies under severe strain, both the UK and Germany signalled on Wednesday that the energy crisis is accelerating their green transitions.

This comes as European Central Bank President Christine Lagarde assured the continent that the ECB has several options for dealing with the inflation shock triggered by the US-Israeli war on Iran, and vowed that policymakers would not be "paralysed by hesitation".

https://www.france24.com/en/france-...-40-gulf-energy-infrastructure-destroyed

Iran War Live Updates: Iran-Backed Houthis Enter War With Missile Attack on Israel
Earlier, U.S. officials said an Iranian strike at a military base in Saudi Arabia injured 12 U.S. troops, one of the most serious breaches of American defenses since the war began.




Here’s the latest.
The Houthis, an Iranian-backed militant group in Yemen, announced on Saturday that they had launched a ballistic missile attack on Israel, appearing to open another front in the spiraling war in the Middle East.

And American casualties continued to rise as the war neared its second month: An Iranian strike on a military base in Saudi Arabia injured 12 U.S. troops, two of them seriously, two U.S. officials said Friday. It was one of the most serious breaches of American defenses since the war began.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2026/0...WlA.dvET.DbgXtLMrQM5e&smid=url-share

I get it. I mean anything is "possible" I suppose.

But I think you have to look at what could be gained or lost by anything and everything. Hegseth is certainly an idiot and when you listen people like him and Jeanine Pirro talk it seems they still think they are on FOX News.

But hitting a school on purpose is a situation where you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. They haven't turned into Netanyahu yet.

Israel scales back use of top missile interceptors as Iran barrages persist - report
Stockpile concerns push the defense establishment to rely on less advanced systems, with mixed results.

An interceptor is fired toward incoming ballistic missiles launched from Lebanon, as seen in northern Israel, March 22, 2026
An interceptor is fired toward incoming ballistic missiles launched from Lebanon, as seen in northern Israel, March 22, 2026
(photo credit: David Cohen/Flash90)
ByJERUSALEM POST STAFF
MARCH 28, 2026 13:55
Israel has begun limiting its use of its most advanced missile interceptors as ongoing Iranian barrages strain stockpiles, forcing the military to increasingly rely on upgraded but less capable systems, according to a Wall Street Journal report published Friday.

The shift comes as the war enters its fourth week, with Iran continuing near-daily launches of ballistic missiles and drones. In recent days, two Iranian missiles struck the southern cities of Dimona and Arad after interception attempts using modified, lower-tier systems failed.

Israeli air defenses, long regarded as among the most sophisticated in the world, have until now leaned heavily on the Arrow system to counter long-range ballistic threats. However, officials are now conserving these high-end interceptors, turning instead to enhanced versions of David’s Sling and even Iron Dome for threats they were not originally designed to handle.





The move reflects mounting pressure on military inventories, as both Israel and its allies contend with the high cost and slow production pace of advanced interceptors compared to Iran’s mass-produced missiles and drones.

The scene where a missile fired from Iran toward Israel caused damage to residential buildings in the southern Israeli city of Dimona, March 22, 2026. (credit: CHAIM GOLDBERG/FLASH90)
Military planners must weigh each incoming threat carefully
“The number of interceptors of every type is finite,” Tal Inbar of the Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance said, noting that prolonged conflict forces increasingly difficult decisions about when and how to deploy defensive systems.

Since the start of the war, Iran has launched more than 400 missiles alongside hundreds of drones. While the intensity of attacks has decreased from the initial phase, the steady pace, combined with daily fire from Hezbollah, continues to stretch Israel’s layered air-defense network.

Military planners must weigh each incoming threat carefully, deciding whether interception is necessary and which system to deploy, while preserving capabilities for future scenarios. Israel’s multi-tiered defense structure, ranging from Iron Dome for short-range threats to Arrow 3 for exo-atmospheric interceptions, was designed for flexibility, but not for sustained high-volume warfare over extended periods.

Recent efforts to adapt lower-tier systems have included software upgrades and expanded operational parameters. David’s Sling, for example, has been pushed to intercept longer-range ballistic threats, with uneven success. Iron Dome has also been adapted to engage drones and longer-range projectiles.

Still, the limitations of these adjustments were underscored by the direct hits in Dimona, home to Israel’s main nuclear facility, and Arad, incidents that heightened public concern and prompted some residents to relocate to reinforced shelters.

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-891460

jc...

List of U.S. soldiers killed during the 2026 Iran war

The following is a list of all 15 confirmed U.S. soldiers killed during the 2026 Iran war as well as soldiers killed from U.S. allied countries.
link


More Than 300 U.S. Troops Have Been Injured in Iran War, Centcom Says

By Shelby Holliday
link


I post this information on America's War dead and wounded as a reminder to all of the sacrifices being made by our solders. I ask that all Americans honor the sacrifices of our soldiers...thoughts and prayers to the families and loved ones.

Dramatic photos 'show destroyed US Air Force planes' after Iranian missile attack left troops seriously injured
By JAMES GORDON, US NEWS REPORTER

Published: 01:54 EDT, 29 March 2026 | Updated: 02:48 EDT, 29 March 2026

Staggering images appear to show catastrophic damage sustained by a US Air Force jet following an Iranian missile strike that seriously injured American troops.

The photos reportedly taken at Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia, show the destroyed remains of an aircraft.

The jet which was hit was identified by Air and Space Forces magazine as an E-3G 'Sentry' airborne warning and control aircraft.

The plane is one of the US military's most critical eyes in the sky and was reportedly left ravaged following a strike by at least six ballistic missiles on Friday.

Around 15 service members were injured in the attack, including five seriously, PBS reports.

In one image, the aircraft's midsection appears to have been blown apart, exposing the internal components in a jumbled wreck.

In another, the tail section lies detached, collapsed onto the runway amid scattered debris.

A third shows personnel in protective suits walking beneath the wing of the crippled jet, dwarfed by the scale of the destruction.

The damage appears concentrated at the rear of the aircraft, the section that houses the rotating radar dome and the sensitive electronics tied to its surveillance system.

An image appears to show a US Air Force E-3G Sentry aircraft sitting in ruins at Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia after an Iranian missile and drone strike

An image appears to show a US Air Force E-3G Sentry aircraft sitting in ruins at Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia after an Iranian missile and drone strike



Personnel in protective suits inspect a heavily damaged aircraft, its radar section ripped apart in what appears to be a targeted strike on critical systems


Tracking data indicates the destroyed aircraft was tail number 81-0005, an E-3G Sentry assigned to the 552nd Air Control Wing out of Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma.

The E-3 fleet, already limited in number, is a cornerstone of US air operations providing real-time surveillance, command and control across vast battle spaces.

With the loss of this aircraft, the US Air Force’s operational fleet of E-3s has been reduced further.

The destruction comes after Iran launched a coordinated assault on Prince Sultan Air Base, firing six ballistic missiles and deploying 29 drones in an attack that has escalated tensions across the region.

According to people briefed on the matter, at least 15 US troops were injured in the latest strike, including five who were seriously wounded. Earlier reports had put the number at ten, including two serious injuries.

The base, located about 60 miles from Riyadh and operated by the Royal Saudi Air Force but used by US forces, has been repeatedly targeted since the conflict began.

This latest barrage marks one of the most significant direct hits on US military assets in the region.

The attack is part of a broader escalation that has seen the number of wounded American service members climb above 300 since the conflict began.

The shattered tail and debris-strewn wreckage of an E-3G surveillance plane appear to lie scattered across the runway following the Iranian attack on the Saudi base

The shattered tail and debris-strewn wreckage of an E-3G surveillance plane appear to lie scattered across the runway following the Iranian attack on the Saudi base

A satellite image shows planes at Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia, where the strike occurred

A satellite image shows planes at Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia, where the strike occurred

Family members stand with the casket carrying the remains of Army Sgt Benjamin N Pennington, 26, of Kentucky, who died after being wounded in a March 1 attack on the same base

Family members stand with the casket carrying the remains of Army Sgt Benjamin N Pennington, 26, of Kentucky, who died after being wounded in a March 1 attack on the same base


Central Command said most of those injured have returned to duty, but about 30 remain sidelined and at least ten are considered seriously wounded.

Prince Sultan Air Base itself has been hit multiple times in recent days. In an earlier strike this week, 14 US troops were injured while another incident damaged a US aircraft without causing casualties.

The war, now entering its second month, has already claimed American lives. Army Sgt. Benjamin N Pennington, 26, was wounded in a March 1 attack on the same base and later died. He is among 13 US service members killed in the conflict.

Meanwhile, the US has surged forces into the region in what officials describe as the largest American military presence in the Middle East in more than two decades.

A Navy amphibious assault ship, the USS Tripoli, carrying about 2,500 Marines, has arrived along with aircraft and assault capabilities. Additional ships, including the USS Boxer and other Marine units, have also been deployed.

In total, roughly 50,000 US troops are now positioned across the region, backed by multiple warships and two aircraft carriers.

The conflict is no longer confined to isolated strikes.

President Donald Trump has warned that Iran must reopen the Strait of Hormuz, saying he has given Tehran until April 6 as diplomatic efforts continue

President Donald Trump has warned that Iran must reopen the Strait of Hormuz, saying he has given Tehran until April 6 as diplomatic efforts continue

Iran has expanded its response to US and Israeli operations by targeting Israel and Gulf Arab states
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Iran has expanded its response to US and Israeli operations by targeting Israel and Gulf Arab states

Israeli personnel search for fragments of an Iranian ballistic missile in a crater before a badly damaged home in Eshta'ol, Israel, near Bet Shemesh, where an Iranian ballistic missile struck on Saturday
nel search for fragments of an Iranian ballistic missile in a crater before a badly damaged home in Eshta'ol, Israel, near Bet Shemesh, where an Iranian ballistic missile struck on Saturday

Iran has expanded its response to US and Israeli operations by targeting Israel and Gulf Arab states while exerting pressure on global energy markets through its grip on the Strait of Hormuz.

The disruption has rattled oil exports, driven up fuel prices and sent shockwaves through global supply chains.

President Donald Trump has warned that Iran must reopen the strait, saying he has given Tehran until April 6 as diplomatic efforts continue, although Iran has said it is not engaged in negotiations.

The Daily Mail has approached the White House and the Pentagon for comment.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ttack-left-troops-seriously-injured.html

More than 3,500 U.S. Troops arrive in Middle East as Iran war strikes intensify

Updated on: March 28, 2026 / 7:33 PM EDT / CBS/AP

More than 3,500 U.S. troops, including the USS Tripoli with about 2,500 Marines, arrived in the Middle East, officials announced Saturday, as strikes in the Iran war intensified.

The U.S. Central Command said in a social media post that the USS Tripoli, which serves as the flagship for the Tripoli Amphibious Ready Group / 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit, arrived in its area of responsibility.

It's the most updated of the amphibious warships, known as a "big deck," which allows more room for F-35 Stealth Fighter Jets, Ospreys and other aircraft. The ship had previously been based in Japan when the order to deploy to the Middle East came almost two weeks ago.

Central Command said that in addition to the Marines, the Tripoli also brings transport and strike fighter aircraft, as well as amphibious assault assets to the region. The USS Boxer and two other ships, along with another Marine Expeditionary Unit, have also been ordered to the region from San Diego.

More than 11,000 targets have been struck since Operation Epic Fury began on Feb. 28, CENTCOM said Saturday in a fact sheet.



Secretary of State Marco Rubio said Friday the United States can meet its objectives "without any ground troops." But he also said President Trump "has to be prepared for multiple contingencies" and that American forces are available "to give the president maximum optionality and maximum, opportunity to adjust to contingencies should they emerge."

The arrival of the U.S. troops in the region comes after at least 10 U.S. troops, including two who were seriously wounded, were injured when Iran fired six ballistic missiles and 29 drones at Saudi Arabia's Prince Sultan air base.

The war, which continues to intensify despite reports of Mr. Trump pushing for a deal, has upended global air travel, disrupted oil exports and caused fuel prices to soar. Iran's stranglehold on the Strait of Hormuz, a strategic waterway, has exacerbated the economic fallout.

On Saturday, Iranian-backed Houthi rebels said they entered the month-old war by claiming a missile launch that Israel said it intercepted.

Brig. Gen. Yahya Saree, a military spokesman for the Houthis, later said in a prerecorded statement aired by the group's Al-Masirah satellite television that the Houthis had launched a second strike on Israel. The Houthis launched strikes in southern Israel to coincide with attacks from Iran and Hezbollah, Saree said, without identifying the locations. Israel did not immediately comment on whether it intercepted any projectiles from Yemen in the second attack.

The Houthis' entry could further hurt global shipping if they again target vessels in the Bab el-Mandeb Strait off the Red Sea. If the Houthis increase attacks on commercial shipping, as they have in the past, it would further push up oil prices and destabilize "all of maritime security," said Ahmed Nagi, a senior Yemen analyst at the International Crisis Group. "The impact would not be limited to the energy market."

Countries have scrambled for alternative routes to the Strait of Hormuz. Bab el-Mandeb, at the southern tip of the Arabian Peninsula, is crucial for vessels heading to the Suez Canal through the Red Sea and Saudi Arabia has been sending millions of barrels of crude oil a day through it because the Strait of Hormuz is effectively closed.

About 12% of the world's trade typically passes through Bab el-Mandeb and about 10% of global maritime trade - including 40% of container ship traffic - passes through the Suez Canal each year.

Houthi rebels attacked over 100 merchant vessels with missiles and drones, sinking two vessels, between November 2023 and January 2025, saying it was attacking in solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza during the war there between Israel and Hamas.

The Houthis' involvement also would complicate the deployment of the USS Gerald R. Ford, the aircraft carrier that arrived in Croatia on Saturday for repairs. Sending the carrier to the Red Sea could draw attacks similar to those experienced by the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower in 2024 and the USS Harry S. Truman in 2025.

The Houthis have held Yemen's capital, Sanaa, since 2014. Saudi Arabia launched a war against the Houthis on behalf of Yemen's exiled government in 2015, and the rebels had stayed out of the current conflict due to their uneasy ceasefire with Saudi Arabia.

Mr. Trump has given Iran until April 6 to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. Iran says it has not engaged in any negotiations.

Trump envoy Steve Witkoff has said Washington delivered a 15-point "action list" to Iran for a possible ceasefire, with a proposal to restrict Iran's nuclear program — the issue at the heart of tensions with the U.S and Israel — and reopen the strait. Tehran rejected the proposal and presented a five-point proposal that included reparations and recognition of its sovereignty over the waterway.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-troops-uss-tripoli-centcom-middle-east-arrive-iran/

Pentagon weighs sending up to 10,000 more troops to Middle East, reports say

The Pentagon is considering sending up to 10,000 more ground troops to the Middle East to potentially support operations in Iran in a move aimed at giving President Donald Trump more military options, The Wall Street Journal reported Friday.

If approved, the force would likely include infantry and armored vehicles, and would join the roughly 5,000 Marines headed to the region and thousands of Fort Bragg-based paratroopers from the 82nd Airborne Division, defense officials told the Journal.

Axios on Friday also said that the Defense Department was weighing whether to dispatch 10,000 more troops to the region.

The Okinawa-based 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit and U.S. sailors arrived in the Middle East on Friday aboard the USS Tripoli, U.S. Central Command said Saturday on X. A second Marine force from San Diego could arrive within a few weeks.

The moves would add significantly more firepower to the contingent already ordered to the Middle East.

While it was unclear where such forces would be positioned, they would likely be within striking distance of Iran and Kharg Island, a small strip of land in the Persian Gulf that handles 90% of Iran’s oil exports, the Journal reported.

The troop buildup comes as the White House says it is engaged in talks to end the joint U.S.-Israeli operation, which launched on Feb. 28 and has resulted in the deaths of 13 U.S. troops.

Since the start of the conflict, the Strait of Hormuz has been effectively closed to commercial ship traffic. The waterway’s closure has caused oil and gas prices to surge, sparking concerns about wider economic implications for the global economy.

If Trump decides to launch a ground operation, one possible mission could be seizing Kharg Island as part of efforts to free the Strait of Hormuz.

The island, which has already come under heavy fire from U.S. airstrikes, is packed with oil infrastructure, a civilian population of industry workers and an unknown number of military personnel.

Trump has referred to the island as Iran’s “crown jewel.” A potential assault on the island could involve everything from an amphibious landing by Marines to paratroopers flying directly into the area or a combination of those tactics.

U.S. forces could also attempt to gain control of elements of Iran’s nuclear program. Reuters last week reported Trump administration officials were considering a mission to secure Iran’s stockpile of enriched uranium.

The White House has said one of the main objectives of the ongoing airstrike campaign is to eliminate Iran’s ability to develop nuclear weapons and dismantle its ability to launch missiles.

In June, the U.S. carried out bunker-busting attacks on Iran’s nuclear program that were believed to set the program back years. However, the status of Iran’s nearly 1,000 pounds of enriched uranium remains unclear.

Suspected locations for the material include damaged tunnel complexes at Iran’s Isfahan nuclear site and inside facilities at Fordow and Natanz.

https://www.stripes.com/theaters/mi...airborne-10000-troops-iran-21196096.html

We all have opinions,, I don't like to think it's possible, but then consider those in charge....