DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What If?

The Baker Mayfield situation was totally mishandled by Dorsey by drafting him in the first place. When the "fiery" QB is hellbent on playing, and the training staff says he's healthy enough to play, he was going to play. Baker was never a good fit personality-wise with Stefanski. Baker was a do things his own way guy. When things are going well, it can be great. When they're not, it can be miserable. The chip on Baker's shoulder doesn't/didn't go away. Could it have been handled better? Probably. But I think people discount Baker's part in it too much. There was talent there, but the person seems to have been a big part of the problem. Handling Baker isn't/wasn't as simple as some people try to make it out to be.

...Stefanski was hired before Berry. It seems it would have been hard for Berry to have hired Stefanski with that being the case. Accountability is tough when dealing with huge-ego'd, entitled millionaires on fully guaranteed contracts (like Baker's rookie contract was.)

When QBs have injuries, other QBs by necessity end up having to play. It's not an allergy. Injuries happen. They'd love to have their starting QB stay healthy.

No one thinks anything is going to magically happen but imaginary inventions in lazy arguments. I hope Berry is still here. Hopefully, he's the best person to continue leading the Browns.

I'm more comfortable with the thought of Berry remaining GM than I am with the idea of someone else "magically" coming in to turn things around.

If we are going to go back with this discussion, it all started when Dwight Clark selected center Jim Pyne with the 1st pick in the expansion draft.

He wasn't talking to you. You can easily see at the right side of the header who a poster is responding to.

I agree, Watson starting AND winning poses another huge problem riding on the edge of a double edge sword.

A) If they fail to re-sign him, it shows their incompetence in managing contracts and players
B) If they do re-sign him and he reverts back to the player we have seen to date, it shows their incompetence in managing contracts and players

Watson starting and losing does nothing for the future of the team, unless it is predetermined that Shedeur Sanders has no chance of being a franchise QB. IF that is the case, they need to trade him for whatever they can get out of him by the trade deadline. THEN and ONLY then would a Watson playing and losing help the team in the possibility of drafting a QB. In the end, other teams won't want him either because his skills have diminished.

Losing is the only way to win in this scenario.

On the other hand, there isn't anyone in this organization or fanbase that would blame the team for not starting Watson after the history we have had with him. If it weren't for the ridiculous contract, he would have been gone long ago.



The only other scenario is Watson starting, winning, getting a contract and continuing to win... I just can't fathom that becoming a reality. He wants one more big pay day and what ever sucker gives it to him is going to get a player that doesn't care about his team, the fan base or the organization. He will simply collect more paychecks. He's a con-artist.



Time to see if Shedeur can show the kind of improvement to cause doubt in drafting a QB in 2027.

You can slice it and dice it any way you like mac, unless Haslam overrode Berry's decisions, Berry had the final say on who was drafted.

The Cleveland Browns hired head coach Kevin Stefanski first, officially announcing his appointment on January 13, 2020. They later hired Andrew Berry as their Executive Vice President of Football Operations and General Manager on January 28, 2020.

Who hired Stefanski again?

The BEST case scenario is Matthew Stafford not being able to play from game one. Historically, the Rams defense has hovered around 10th in the league when he is healthy and in the 20s when he isn't. An unhealthy Stafford could mean the Rams pick being close to the top 10, with a rookie behind the wheel.

As for the Browns, I would be much much more shocked at a Browns run at the playoffs than I would a top 10 draft pick. I hope I'm wrong, but there is a lot to overcome to be that competitive with a new coaching staff, completely new offensive line, rookie WRs and an unproven QB. It's almost insurmountable.

I’m not arguing against you, but my understanding is that Berry was at least involved in, or consulted on, the decision to hire Stefanski. It’s hard for me to believe that he would have accepted the GM position without having some input on one of the organization’s most important decisions.

Do you agree with that assessment?

I’m fully aware of the current organizational structure and who ultimately has final authority. My question is a little different: are people genuinely comfortable with the idea of giving Berry another five years to lead the football operation?

Could he succeed? Absolutely. Anything is possible in the NFL. But based on the track record we’ve seen so far, I’m not convinced he’s the person most likely to lead the Browns to sustained success.

There have simply been too many questionable decisions along the way for me to feel completely confident in his leadership. There have also been too many conflicts, controversies, and situations that have followed this front office for me to view him as the master strategist that many fans seem to believe he is.

That doesn’t mean I think he’s terrible or incapable. I just don’t see the level of success or evidence that would make me comfortable handing him another five-year runway without asking some tough questions.

I agree that he accepted the fact that Stenfanski had already been hired as the HC. I don't think you actually "consult" with someone who wasn't even hired until over two weeks later. At that time they didn't even know if they could reach an agreement for Berry to be the GM. Nor do you or I know if at that time they had even settled on who their target would be for the next GM. For all we know at that time Berry may have just been one of the finalists on their list for the job.

But that wasn't your claim now was it?


You can't hire someone to an organization you don't even work for.

I'm not comfortable with Berry staying on. He was more involved in putting together the pizz poor roster Stefnaski was coaching than anyone.

That wasn't the point.

I’m not saying every single problem in Cleveland is Andrew Berry’s fault. Ownership, coaching, injuries and players all matter too. But when people ask why some fans are uncomfortable giving this same leadership group another long runway, I think it’s fair to look at the pattern since 2020.

Since Berry and Stefanski took over, the Browns have had:

1. The Baker Mayfield injury situation
Baker played through a serious shoulder injury in 2021, the season collapsed, and the relationship never really recovered.

2. The OBJ drama
Odell Beckham Jr.’s time in Cleveland ended with public tension, his father posting the Baker video, missed practices, and eventually his release.

3. The Jarvis Landry exit
Landry was one of the emotional leaders who helped change the culture, but his departure still felt like another example of the team moving on from players who had actually helped build something.

4. The Deshaun Watson trade
Three first-round picks, a fully guaranteed $230 million contract, major off-field controversy, an 11-game suspension, and years of instability at quarterback. Even Jimmy Haslam later called it a “big swing and miss.”

5. The Watson press conference
The organization tried to sell the move as a great football decision, but the whole thing felt uncomfortable and poorly handled from the start.

6. The quarterback carousel
Baker Mayfield, Deshaun Watson, Jacoby Brissett, PJ Walker, Dorian Thompson-Robinson, Joe Flacco, Jameis Winston and others. For a front office that was supposed to bring stability, quarterback has been the opposite.

7. The Joe Flacco situation
Flacco came in off the couch, saved the 2023 season, helped lead the team to the playoffs, won Comeback Player of the Year, and then the Browns still moved on. Many fans never understood that decision.

8. The Nick Chubb situation
Chubb gave everything to this franchise. Injuries are part of the business, but the way beloved core players are handled matters when you talk about culture.

9. The Amari Cooper trade
Cooper was a major part of the 2023 playoff team, then he was traded during a season where the offense was already falling apart.

10. The Myles Garrett situation
When your best player publicly questions the direction of the franchise and wants out because he wants to compete for Super Bowls, that says something about the state of the organization.

11. Constant communication problems
Too often, the public message from the organization has sounded polished but empty. “Accountability” gets repeated, but the same mistakes keep happening.

12. Too many conflicts around important players
Mayfield, OBJ, Landry, Flacco, Cooper, Chubb, Watson, Garrett. At some point, it stops looking like isolated incidents and starts looking like a pattern.

That is my concern.

Berry may be smart. Ownership obviously plays a huge role too. But after this many years, this many quarterback mistakes, this many player conflicts, and this many failed decisions, I don’t think it’s unfair to ask whether this leadership group has really earned another five-year window.

I’m not rooting against them. I’m rooting for the Browns. I just don’t see enough evidence that this group is the one most likely to lead the franchise to sustained success.

Thanks.

A) As of today, absolutely. This is a, what have you done for me lately league. Over the past two years, I can say he did a lot that I have liked and agree with. Now, it's a loaded question because 5 years is a long time and there are no rules in the NFL on longevity. They could sign him to an extension through 2040 tomorrow and still fire him in 2027. The timelines don't matter.

B) The track record of terrible moves for me consist of his very first draft of his career in drafting Jed Wills and agreeing to Haslem's insistence of signing Watson to a 100% guaranteed deal while giving away the future in draft picks.

I'm curious what the other questions are that trouble you?

You really need to give up on a 5 year timeline though, the Not For Long league has no timelines on careers. It could all be over tomorrow.

Just last week we saw people discussing Myles new tax situation in California which has nothing to do with the game itself but now discussing how we got to where we are now, which is totally relevant, is something unworthy of discussion? Should I add "end of sentence" to try and make that more impactful?

Berry is here. He is a huge part of the Browns organization. Pretending his body of work isn't worthy of discussion sounds ridiculous.

Stefanski was hired before Berry. Berry was hired (IIRC) about a week after KS. My recollection is that they were a package deal, but that package was put together by Haslam (and probably Depo).

The Cleveland Browns hired head coach Kevin Stefanski first, officially announcing his appointment on January 13, 2020. They later hired Andrew Berry as their Executive Vice President of Football Operations and General Manager on January 28, 2020.

Berry was hired just over two weeks later.

1 & 2 were John Dorsey Problem children.

3. Juice started 3 more games in his career and is out of the league.

4. Yep, this worked out worse than should have been possible. Haslam seems to have taken some of the responsibility. It's still a black mark on Berry’s resume.

5. What would you have done differently? Once the huge decision was made, you have to say something about it. The surrounding circumstances were never going to allow everyone watching to feel good.

6. Injuries suck.

7. Some fans thought bringing back a 40+ y/o QB was pointless. A lot of the "Flacco magic" feeling was due to how bad his predecessors were. Joe had his share of bad.

8. Chubb hasn't regained his form and is currently a free agent. It's a results oriented business.

9. Amari Cooper was bad in Buffalo. He's also not on a team now. Getting a 3rd for him was good business.

10. Yes. It says something about Myles, too. And the league in general. And modern culture in general.

11. Empty blather is how NFL employees approach interacting with the media most of the time.

12. I think that's why they seem to have started picking players with different attitudes/personality types. And Landry, Flacco, Cooper, and Chubb weren't really conflicts. They were "they were good while they lasted, but it wasn't lasting much/any longer" moves. Paying a premium for the decline is bad business. Not For Long.

I think Berry’s biggest problem is/was that he can/could be too collaborative. I think he gave Haslam (Watson), Stefanski (Gabriel), and Schwartz (Ika) guys they wanted. Hopefully he's growing more into his own.

I wouldn’t be surprised if, in the not-too-distant future, NFL teams begin relying much more heavily on AI for talent evaluation and roster building.

Imagine an advanced AI system that can analyze virtually every available piece of information: college production, athletic testing, injury history, physical traits, game film, psychological profiles, behavioral patterns, and thousands of comparable player careers. It could process far more data than any individual scout or analyst ever could.

That doesn’t mean human scouts, coaches, or general managers will disappear overnight. Experience, leadership, communication skills, and judgment still matter. Building a football team is about more than numbers alone.

However, it seems likely that AI will gradually become one of the most important tools in decision-making. Teams that learn how to combine traditional football knowledge with advanced AI analysis may gain a significant competitive advantage.

And this trend probably won’t stop with sports. Law, finance, administration, medicine, and many other professions are already being transformed by AI-driven tools. Football may simply be another area where technology changes how organizations operate.

Will AI eventually become the equivalent of a general manager? Maybe not entirely. But I can certainly imagine a future where a GM spends less time making decisions based on instinct and far more time working alongside AI systems that can evaluate possibilities at a scale no human ever could.

The most successful organizations may not be the ones that replace people with AI, but the ones that figure out how to combine the strengths of both.

Peen, I’m with you. The comparison of years is dumb as hell. The only thing I would take from 2020 is Baker...b/c he was better and even then, I want no part of him with this 2025 or 2026 squad. Bros want Mack Wilson, BJ Goodson, Takitaki over Bush (or Q. Williams), Carson, Schwesinger, and Diabate....or that Ward, Terrance Mitchell, Karl Joseph, Andrew Sendejo over Ward, Campbell, Delpit, and Hickman.



About as dumb as people not understanding Verse is a hell of a player when the trade was made .

Ok my apologies, I went a little strong.

Either way, I don't want any part of that 2020 team. The 2025 and 2026 teams have way more talent and depth than that 2020 team.

Compared to the 2025 team, the difference is QB and the Oline. Outside of that. I am fine with last years and these years roster.

I don’t think I’m bursting any bubbles here but AI is already deeply imbedded in all of those professions and more. I’ve been utilizing AI for nearly two years and all I do is run a commercial truck dealership.

I would shocked if the scouts themselves aren’t utilizing AI. If they aren’t they are quickly going to fall behind in their industry.

AI is only as good as the people programming it and the quality/accuracy of the data being inputted into it. Unfortunately, a lot of things that matter in how prospects pan out (or not) aren't things that are easily measurable.

So I decided to compare the likely Browns starters 2025 against the 2025 Super Bowl champion Seahawks starter-for-starter..

The biggest difference isn’t necessarily talent.

The biggest difference is proven production.

To realistically close the gap, the Browns likely need to hit most of the 2027, 2028, and 2029 drafts. They need to find a franchise quarterback once the Deshaun Watson situation is fully behind them, add another six or seven quality starters, and identify multiple elite playmakers who can consistently generate points.

The Encouraging Part

The gap is actually smaller than it appears from the outside.

LMAO OK tell us the story of how it's all Mike Nikolaus fault next. I mean he has been with the Browns 19 years and is THE Chief Human Resources Officer. Tell us the story about how everything is his fault next.

Hi MAC *waving*

NO for YEARS YOU tried to figure out who was the man in charge of the draft. Everybody with any knowledge at all knows its Berry. I for a FACT know it's Berry.

We are 106-202 since We hired Mike Nikolaus in 2007 it's all his fault damnit.

Maybe it starts that way but AI continues to build on what was initially entered. It doesn't remain static.

The role of a CEO or General Manager may look very different in the coming years as AI becomes capable of handling many of the analytical and administrative responsibilities that traditionally required large teams of specialists.

Historically, top leadership positions often required elite academic credentials, advanced degrees, and decades of experience. Going forward, I suspect qualities such as communication skills, emotional intelligence, critical thinking, sound judgment, and the ability to ask the right questions may become even more valuable.

Future leaders will likely be judged less by their ability to personally process vast amounts of information and more by their ability to communicate across cultures, understand people from different backgrounds, build consensus, and identify risks that data alone may not fully capture.

Looking at the Browns, Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski both brought impressive educational backgrounds and professional credentials to their roles. Jimmy Haslam certainly had access to some of the best advisors and resources available before the Deshaun Watson trade was made. Yet despite all that expertise, the organization still failed to fully anticipate the long-term consequences of that decision.

Meanwhile, many fans, relying largely on common sense and basic observations about the circumstances surrounding Watson’s departure from Houston, expressed concerns from the very beginning. While none of us can predict the future with certainty, those concerns ultimately proved difficult to ignore.

One lesson that repeatedly appears in business, sports, and investing is that long-term success often depends more on avoiding major mistakes than on consistently making perfect decisions. Sustained success is usually more of a marathon than a sprint.

It will be interesting to see how the Haslam family approaches leadership decisions going forward. I would not be surprised if organizations across professional sports, including the Browns, begin rethinking the responsibilities and skill sets they look for in future General Managers as technology continues to reshape how decisions are made.

But it is always reliant on the initial underpinnings. It can add more data, but how it looks at that data is fixed in the programming. It's ability to process the accuracy of data is also variable dependent on the programming.

AI can provide you with more bad answers the more data it doesn't truly understand that it incorporates.

That isn't how it works. There isn't a computer geek programming information into the Browns servers and AI converts the information into useful data.

AI pulls every known piece of information on the web and can then manipulate it to what ever question you want. Right now it is limited by the public browsers that limit it's abilities somewhat, but a program built specifically to dial in all aspects of football would speed the process up significantly.

I agree that the unknown background information is going to be even more limited. As well as live interviews to test knowledge, etc. However, it can pull interviews, articles about off field issues in local papers, etc. to get an algorithm for mental success to pair with actual success at their respective programs. It can also compare that success with the program itself, even diving into the current coaches success with previous programs they worked with to see how that candidate compares to every, for example, WR that coach has ever worked with, THEIR college success vs translated NFL success. It is actually an endless amount of knowledge that you or I can't even fathom.

AI is becoming a living breathing tool for programs, not a program itself that is totally reliant on the guy that wrote it. What ever is ultimately used to pull the AI into the mix, AI will utilize 100% of that tool and make it better and more efficient that the program written to utilize it.

AI can tell you to a finite percentage how accurate a piece of information is. It can also choose whether to use a piece of information based on those percentages. There aren't many boundaries, which is what makes it scary.