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Quote:
I mean, I've never seen him in a 3-4 scheme, so maybe he could be good.
Yeah. Maybe. He's always played in the 4-3 and it's easy to sit here and say he could make the transition, but saying and doing are two very separate things. For the amount of money he's going to command, we can't swing and miss on this one if we decide to try and hit the ball.....
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I also think that NT is our most pressing need.
I would rank our defensive needs like this:
NT: We need a guy who commands double teams on most every play and does not give ground. S. Smith chooses gaps. He would be best suited to a 4-3 DT, but could play DE in our 3-4.
FS: We need a guy w/good instincts and a nose for the ball. We need a guy who doesn't take so long to react to every play. We need a guy who can cover the field and allow us to put more guys closer to the LOS, instead of dropping 7 to 8 on most plays to cover his but. This guy would allow Jones to move closer to the LOS, like he was the year before. He is more effective there and really helps out our run defense.
OLB: We need a guy who can get after the QB in a big way and also not lose outside containment on running plays. It is really important to get more pressure on the QB. I watched a lot of games this year, but if there was a team that gave the opposing QB more time to throw and w/more room to step up than the Browns......than I don't know who that team is.
DE: We need an all-around player at DE to be part of our rotation. One that can get some pressure on the QB in certain situations, but mainly be able to string out plays in the running game and not lose his gap responsibility.
ILB: I don't think it is a huge priority. I would like to see how both those guys would do w/an adequate defensive line in front of them and w/a FS who doesn't stand around watching the action behind them.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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ILB: I don't think it is a huge priority. I would like to see how both those guys would do w/an adequate defensive line in front of them and w/a FS who doesn't stand around watching the action behind them.
All I can say is hallelujah... if we can get DLmen that are capable of engaging/containing/tying up the OL as is their job, then the LBers could very well be a more effective unit. (Combined with, as you said, an OLB that is capable of getting where he is supposed to be)
It all ties in together........
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1st String
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 Jared Allen
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Vers & Shep, I can see your points here and want to ask this: Do you have a FA targeted for NT? I think RAC & Co must agree with you on S. Smith...although Attack (I think it's Attack) really thinks Smith could be a very effective NT for us. I too think that Smith - or maybe just his mindset - is better suited for DE. Could Smith be the DE you are looking for? I WANT Smith to be that stud NT for us because we need one very bad...but just because I WANT it, doesn't make it so. Is Wimbley not the OLB you seek? Or do you want another OLB in a similar mold as him? You sure do not hide your dislike for Pool. If you were RAC, would you cut him altogether or move him to another position or to a backup? (Some would call that an "agenda"  ) If our ILBs are ok for now, who do you start. DQ with LW or with AD? I am not a big fan of AD's play, but I'll admit - as I've done a dozen times before - that I do not do a good job of focusing on a player and wouldn't know if a guy "did his job" unless someone drew a picture for me. Maybe my dislike for AD's play comes from reading this board? FWIW, these are serious questions...I'm not trying to be a weenie here. Thanks.
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Not only does Jared Allen not fit the 3-4 at all at 270 lbs., there is also no way he would go to a team that runs the 3-4. He is not big enough to play end for us, and he would not be a good linebacker. There is no reason for him to go to a 3-4 team either. He would have to gain weight in order to play end for us, and his stats wouldn't be nearly as good there. He would not want to play linebacker because he would have to learn a new position and he probably knows he wouldn't be good there.
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I feel that S Smith could be an adequate NT for us, giving that we put solid ends on either side of him. I would prefer someone larger than Smith if I had my druthers. DLmen in the 3-4 have to be capable of 2 gap responsibility....and yes, if we do get a "real" NT then Smith could adequately occupy a DE slot.
Wimbley was not allowed to perform to his capabilities this past season due to the ineffectiveness of the line. Shore up the line and you will see big things again from Wimbley.
The ILB- I'd prefer DQ with LW if there was no new blood brought in, and I think Peek would be fine on the opposite side of KW IF the line were strengthened.
As to who to target in FA, I try not to even look at that stuff until it's in high gear, as many players will be re-signed without us or anyone else ever having a chance at them. I know that Savage has been and is on the prowl though, and it's no secret in Berea where our needs lie.
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no real surprise here. The titans said from the beginning they would tag him and work out a long term deal if possible.
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Fair questions......and at least we can talk football. Quote:
Do you have a FA targeted for NT? I think RAC & Co must agree with you on S. Smith...although Attack (I think it's Attack) really thinks Smith could be a very effective NT for us. I too think that Smith - or maybe just his mindset - is better suited for DE. Could Smith be the DE you are looking for?
I don't have anyone tagged. I usually wait until they really hit the market. Too many guys get tagged or re-signed before they ever hit the market.
S. Smith gets a lot of love on this board. I can see why. He makes some big plays. He jumps up and dances around. He gets "noticed." He talks a lot, which draws more attention to himself. That's all well and good. However, I see other things.
I see a guy who chooses a gap on most plays. This leads to the occasional big play, but it also leads to many big running plays from the other team. He reminds me of Warren in that regard. And I can see why the Bengals didn't try to keep him.
I don't think he sucks, but he is a rotational player. He can come in and give you decent play, but he is not a guy who can eat blocks, clog the middle, and let our lbers run free. In short, he is not the NT we need for this defense.
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Is Wimbley not the OLB you seek? Or do you want another OLB in a similar mold as him?
I like Wimbley. I don't think he is a complete player, but I think he will work hard to continue to improve. I also think that he is negated somewhat because he is our only true pass rusher. I believe his sack totals would go way up if we had a good pass rusher on the other side. I think teams scheme against him. I really don't know if I want a guy in the same mode as Wimbley. I would prefer a more complete player, such as a younger Willie McGinnest. I want a guy who can get after the QB, while still being able to string out running plays and not lose outside containment. It's a lot to ask, but it is also very important.
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You sure do not hide your dislike for Pool. If you were RAC, would you cut him altogether or move him to another position or to a backup? (Some would call that an "agenda"
Call it what you like. I think he sucks. He gets a free pass on here because people don't see him getting burned very often. *L* That's usually because he is nowhere close to the ball. He has the worst instincts I have ever seen in a professional free safety. He is a good athlete. He can run. He is big. He is strong. He looks good in a uniform. But.........he stands around watching too much. He is sooooooo slow to react. He is killing us.
With that said.........I doubt if we part ways w/him this year. They might not even bring in a serious challenger for his spot. He was a high pick and that draft has already been exposed for how terrible it was. They will probably give him another year, but I maintain.......as long as he is back there, this defense will always be compromised.
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If our ILBs are ok for now, who do you start. DQ with LW or with AD? I am not a big fan of AD's play, but I'll admit - as I've done a dozen times before - that I do not do a good job of focusing on a player and wouldn't know if a guy "did his job" unless someone drew a picture for me. Maybe my dislike for AD's play comes from reading this board?
The starters should be AD and DQ. Williams is athletic, but he doesn't have much of a clue. He is exposed all the time for what he is..........an undisciplined football player that tries to get away w/his great natural talent. He can help if used sparingly, but this guy is a liability if used too often.
I think AD is our best inside linebacker, and I completely agree w/you when you said something about opinion's being made about him because of what has been written on this board. He is not that bad. Of course, I have read other posters who act like he is great. He's neither.
He is a pretty good ILBer. He is a smart guy and is a good leader on defense. He plays the pass very well. His depth on drops is above average and he has a feel for the zones we play. He goes downhill well in running plays and is an adequate blitzer. He does struggle w/getting off blocks and often gets lost in traffic. He arm tackles too much.
Bottom line: I don't think he is allowed to play to his strengths because of how bad our defensive line is at doing its job. We heard Ray Lewis squawking a couple of years ago about getting someone in front of him to protect him. Well, Davis has NEVER had that. His biggest weakness is shedding blocks and we don't have a NT capable of eating blockers. He goes downhill very well, but our defensive line doesn't allow that because they don't eat blockers. I don't think he is great, but he is good enough to win with. And believe me.......we have more glaring needs on the defensive side of the ball.
DQ: He improved this past year. He has pretty good instincts and plays well in space. He tends to over-pursue sometimes, but at least he can run to the sidelines. He is even worse than AD when it comes to shedding blocks. I have trained my binoculars on him and seen him driven 8 to 10 yds. downfield by opposing guards. He can't hold up to that type of physicality. I do think he can improve enough to be a decent starter though.
Bottom line on our two inside backers: Both are pretty bad at shedding blocks, but both are intelligent and can track down the ball, provided they get the room to do it. AD gets good drops in the passing game and DQ covers the flat well. The problem is that their strengths are negated and their weaknesses are magnified by our inept defensive line. They also have had to contend w/having to place too much importance on pass coverage, due to Pool being so poor at covering the field.
I am not sure........but if we improve the defensive line.....these two linebackers will be adequate for now. We may upgrade in the near future, but we shouldn't this year.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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What Allen lacks in size he makes up with speed. I can see many stunts with Wimbley on the right side.
He'd be a good fit.
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Legend
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Actually I believe that since he was (in 2007) one of the top 5 DT's paid he gets a 20% increase with the tag designation. Otherwise the average of the top 5 could be a decrease, if he were #1 in that calculation. (I think he was #3 actually).
I wasn't making it up, it's right there in the original article.. for all I know you are right and the reporter that wrote the story is wrong,,but here it is from the article that started this tread..
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Speck doesn't anticipate a deal being completed before the deadline for teams to declare franchise players.
The franchise designation will guarantee that Haynesworth is paid $6.37 million next season, the average salary of the five highest-paid defensive tackles. He was fourth on that list last year at $6.04 million.
Do the math, according to this article, he's getting a raise of 330,000 for next year.. which puts him at the average of the Top 5 guys at his position..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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With that said.........I doubt if we part ways w/him this year. They might not even bring in a serious challenger for his spot. He was a high pick and that draft has already been exposed for how terrible it was.
I agree with most of what you wrote Vers...but I have to disagree here. Not so much with your Pool assessemnt...Im still somewhat on the fence on that regard....upcoming season certainly is a make or break year
I disagree, as I have in the past when you made that statement, on the Browns 2005 draft....
look at it as a whole: http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=2005
as much as I dislike Edwards, we hit a HR in the top 10 with him....look around...the other guys in the top 10, R.Brown aside who was picked #2, are horrible
Pool pick is debatable....but the guys picked after him arent that impressive barring some exeptions (Tatupu).....it wasnt a horrible draft, not a great or even good one.....but a draft cant be considered horrible when you picked ProBowl talent and production
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Maybe we can have this conversation on another thread??? It could get interesting. For now, let's just say we disagree.  Now.........I wanna hear your take on the other things I brought up.......or about our defensive needs. You have a sound football mind. I would like to read more of your opinions.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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He didn't say you were making anything up......  He's saying that he thinks as he is already one of the top 5 at that position he doesn't get the average, he gets a 20% increase. It's possible that the press is wrong, right?
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Allrighty then...First u say this... Quote:
He does struggle w/getting off blocks and often gets lost in traffic. He arm tackles too much.
Arm Tackling is the kiss of death for ANY ILB...Lewis or no Lewis...There ain't an ILB in the NFL worth squat with the 3 problems u listed above...
Davis's BEST attribute is he is a solid COVERAGE LB...And that right there should tell u we NEED AN UPGRADE...Not necessarily a 3 down upgrade but one that will relegate Davis into a rotation for passing downs...
Then u say this...
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We heard Ray Lewis squawking a couple of years ago about getting someone in front of him to protect him. Well, Davis has NEVER had that.
There's a MAJOR difference in Lewis and Davis...Put them in the SAME scenarios and Lewis wins by a landslide...Davis isn't as near quick as Lewis and lacks one major thing...DEMEANOR to be a dominant factor...
QB's line up every single play and POINT OUT WHERE LEWIS IS...31 QB's in this league don't give a damn where Davis is and ONE who wants him on the BENCH...That be Anderson...lol...
I told u about the Pool thang...The ONLY individual I would even consider bringing in is Hamlin...If not Hamlin then it's Pool all the way...The dude switched all over the place in 2006 and couldn't stick at one spot behind Russell and LEARN cause of the injury craziness...1st year starter in 07...Still a pup that needs to grow and mature...NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING DONE YET...
IMO you're WAY OFF the mark with the OLB thang...U wanna talk about a NT to keep linemen off Davis???...How bout a lineman to allow PEEK to do what he does best...PRESSURE THE BACKFIELD...It's why I say get the TWEENER in the draft rounds 2-4...No need to blow a FA Cap Wad on any OLB...
Jackson is the one I wanna see with some Front 3 help...He's got the Demeanor and speed to be a dominant LB...We get a replacement for Davis and we'll have a nice lil' rotation with Jackson/Williams and Davis...Right now our ILB rotation SUCKS...And it ain't because of the Front 3...
U wanna get this team going in the rolling ball effect on defense???...CONCENTRATE on a NT...An End...And an INSIDE LB...And get these guys CONCENTRATING on their respective RESPONSIBILITIES and MAKE THEM STAY HOME...Enter Tucker...
Go Browns!!!
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The starters should be AD and DQ. Williams is athletic, but he doesn't have much of a clue. He is exposed all the time for what he is..........an undisciplined football player that tries to get away w/his great natural talent. He can help if used sparingly, but this guy is a liability if used too often.
I think AD is our best inside linebacker, and I completely agree w/you when you said something about opinion's being made about him because of what has been written on this board. He is not that bad. Of course, I have read other posters who act like he is great. He's neither.
I'm with ya on this one. Davis for some reason has a terrible rep on the boards. No, he is not a star linebacker. He isn't good. But he's good enough to be a starter. He's somewhat slow off blocks and he can get beat due to bad instincts/overpursuing (cut-backs, etc). BUT he drops fairly well into coverage and is a very good tackler.
Leon Williams is much more of a liability than Davis, you said it, very athletic guy: situational player. I like having him in the rotation, and he's good for big plays but you can't count on him every play.
Where we dissagree is on D'Qwell. While I don't go to the games much, I do watch every one on television: Jackson is IMO our best ILB. He too is a very good tackler, as good as Davis: while undersized I think that he is better at getting off blocks than Davis as well. He always seems to be the guy taking down the RB on the opposing team's running plays. Often one or two yards from scrimmage. When our D started tightening up against the run (and it wasn't just those last couple games in weather, there were some before it), I feel that he had a lot to do with it.
I don't see the overpursuing that you are talking about and he plays the pass well too. I would love to get a replacement at ILB within the next two years, but when we do I think Dra is the odd-man out. I like Jackson more, while undersized he plays very hard and seems to find a way to be around the ball. I'm not saying he'll ever be a great ILB, but he is good enough to be a starter in the league (Andra as well) and he isn't our problem.
As was emphasized earlier in the thread, we need D-Line. It will be tough finding ILBs who are that much better than our starters, our NT and DE are weak spots.
And we've all ready talked about Pool, I think you're blowing that situation out of proportion. May be with a better pass rush (coming from D-Line help) everything will look better. Because I do agree, Sean Jones needs to play closer to the line which will help us face the run and put pressure on the QB (love the unsuspected safety blitz). And I don't want just Jones coming towards the line always, Pool can too (he has shown big plays on blitzes as well) and Jones can stay back there. Mix everything up
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I disagree on your take on AD on 2 key points ... and then a 3rd minor one ... I do agree he is far from the biggest problem on our D ... although i would LOVE to see that position upgraded it is not a priority as of yet(it will be soon though ...  )... .... I do agree he is a leader ... I do agree he should be playing over Leon .. he has proven to be a great athelete that just either has no brains or refuses to adhere to his responsibities ..... take your pick but either way its not good .. *L* .. I also agree he is very good in drops at pass coverage ... thats again one of his assets ... 1. U mention he arm tackles to much ... well your right .. but U appear to gloss over it like its a small liability .. well to me TACKLING IS THE #1 key to any LBer play ... and he is a HORRIBLE TACKLER for two reasons .... A. like u said he arm tackles WAY TO MUCH and a majority of the times he TRIES THAT it ends up being a WHIFF and there is no tackle .. B. RB's ALWAYS FALL FORWARD ... and i mean ALWAYS .... and thats when there not DRIVING HIM BACK 3 YARDS ... he's suppose to be a MLber for gods sakes and he ALWAYS is going backwords .. to me tackling for a LBer is akin to accuracy to a QB .. if u can't do it your in trouble .. 2. U say he plays downhill very well .. I do not believe I could agree less .. you make a valid point when u say part of his problem is the guys in front of him and them not helping keep people off of him .. GREAT POINT ... he also goes downhill well when there is ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IN HIS WAY or he is BLITZING in a GAP ... well who the hell couldn't do that??? actually IMO his biggest asset IMO is blitzing a gap .. he does this very well .. better than most ... but there are MANY MANY OCCASIONS PER GAME where he goes directly to where he is suppose to be REGARDLESS of whats going on ... meaning he will PUT HIMSELF behind a mass of bodies and have 4 people between him and the ball carrier and "flow" downfield with this mass without ANYONE ENGAGING HIM ... he goes there on his own ... instead of taking an angle and another route to get to where he needs to be he makes himself USELESS behind a pile of bodies ON HIS OWN ... if someone blocked him there I would understand .. but he just goes there all on his own ... and this boils down to INSTINCTS ... AD has ZERO INSTINCTS .. he plays football like a robot ... he goes to where he is suppose to REGARDLESS ... and no this is not maintining gap or lane responsibility .. this is BAD FOOTBALL INSTINCTS ... and u know the difference bro so dont even try it ..  .. its kind of like the anti-Williams ... and he is so far the other way its a HUGE NEGATIVE .... to go downhill well U need INSTINCTS and he has none ..... PS. I guess this would also kinda go against him being a "smart" football player .. 3. your right when U say that DQ is worse when an OLmen gets into him ... they drive him 5 - 10 yards off the line ... where as AD they dotn drive that far back .. i agree with U in that regard .. but here's the thing .. DQ doesnot get engaged by his blockers near as much as AD .... DQ has a way of getting an angle most of the times the OLman get a free pass at him and he "slides" off the blocks using his shoulder pads and hands ... does he do this often enough?? NOPE ... but he gets "driven back" and tottaly taken out of alot less plays than AD because he uses "angles" better when an OLman runs free at him .... now when they do get into him ITS UGLY ... *L* .. like I said bro ... AD is not near the biggest liability on this D ... we need a NT and another DE and another OLB alot more ... but his time is coming as he is just not that good ... he has his OWN ISSUES and there pretty big ones ... as far as the draft that U wanna talk about on another thread ,,, that was a POOR ASS DRAFT CLASS OVERALL ... they said it going in to the draft ... they said it was the weakest overall draft class in the last decade .... and so far its proven to be true ... so although Opie may or may not have done well ... he didn't do any worse than most others ...
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What do you mean, Shep. The press is never wrong.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Quote:
Then u say this...
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We heard Ray Lewis squawking a couple of years ago about getting someone in front of him to protect him. Well, Davis has NEVER had that.
There's a MAJOR difference in Lewis and Davis...Put them in the SAME scenarios and Lewis wins by a landslide...Davis isn't as near quick as Lewis and lacks one major thing...DEMEANOR to be a dominant factor...
Sometimes, I wonder how much it takes to spell things out. 
In no way was I trying to say that AD was near the player that Lewis was. I only made the point to illustrate how important it is to be protected by the defensive line. I'll stand by that claim.
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If not Hamlin then it's Pool all the way...The dude switched all over the place in 2006 and couldn't stick at one spot behind Russell and LEARN cause of the injury craziness...1st year starter in 07...Still a pup that needs to grow and mature...NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING DONE YET..
LOL............that's an excuse....and a lame one. He has NO instincts at all. I don't think he improved much at all last year. He is slow to react, stands around too much, and is hardly ever around the ball. Our defensive schemes also indicate how much confidence they have in him. Very little.
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IMO you're WAY OFF the mark with the OLB thang...U wanna talk about a NT to keep linemen off Davis???...How bout a lineman to allow PEEK to do what he does best...PRESSURE THE BACKFIELD...It's why I say get the TWEENER in the draft rounds 2-4...No need to blow a FA Cap Wad on any OLB...
Peek never could play the run. It's why he didn't play all that much before he got here. And it is no coincidence that our run defense improved after Willie came back. I wasn't even impressed w/Peek as a pass rusher. Perhaps it was due solely to the minor injuries? I don't know......but, we need an upgrade at that position. Way more than we do at ILBer.
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.Right now our ILB rotation SUCKS...And it ain't because of the Front 3...
Whatever you say. *L*
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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What Allen lacks in size he makes up with speed. I can see many stunts with Wimbley on the right side.
He'd be a good fit.
I completely disagree. That speed isn't going to help him eat up blockers. He'd be useless on running plays.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Where we dissagree is on D'Qwell. While I don't go to the games much, I do watch every one on television: Jackson is IMO our best ILB. He too is a very good tackler, as good as Davis: while undersized I think that he is better at getting off blocks than Davis as well. He always seems to be the guy taking down the RB on the opposing team's running plays. Often one or two yards from scrimmage. When our D started tightening up against the run (and it wasn't just those last couple games in weather, there were some before it), I feel that he had a lot to do with it.
I don't see the overpursuing that you are talking about and he plays the pass well too.
Well, DQ can still improve and he probably will overtake AD as our best ILBer. Not arguing that. I just think he is another guy who makes some plays, but often is out of position. Sans the over pursuing angle. I've seen him run to the outside....way too fast and at a very poor angle. One cut-back and DQ is left clutching the wind.
I am not down on him, but he does need to improve. And like I said.........I would wait to upgrade the ILBer for at least another year.
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And we've all ready talked about Pool, I think you're blowing that situation out of proportion. May be with a better pass rush (coming from D-Line help) everything will look better.
I don't think I am blowing it out of proportion at all. In fact, I think he was the worst starter on the team, except for when Big Ted was playing.
Everything does improve when you get a better pass rush, but I am saying that our pass rush is hindered by this Pool's terrible play. We just can't afford to stack that many guys close to the LOS when we have a FS who has such poor instincts.
And I am not asking you to agree w/me, but in my mind.......Pool is awful.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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What do you think about switching Pool and Jones?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Here's an article on negotiations and the ripple effect of Haynesworth getting tagged . . . http://www.nfl.com/news/story;jsessionid...mp;confirm=trueNegotiating table is a tough place to sit at in the NFL By Pat Kirwan | NFL.com The more I watch the ripple effect of some of the factors creating stress on player negotiations these days in the NFL, the more I feel for team contract negotiators. There are some external forces that make it close to impossible for a team to get one of their good, young veteran re-signed if he is approaching free agency. In the next few days, we will hear which players are going to be tagged with the franchise designation, and that will set into motion an incredible amount of pressure on signing other players. For example, the Green Bay Packers are trying to retain the services of defensive lineman Corey Williams. He had seven sacks in 2007, which places him as one of the top tackles in that department. Albert Haynesworth had a great year for the Titans and will get the franchise tag, but he only had six sacks. The franchise tag is worth $6.36 million, and that designation takes Haynesworth off the open market. If Williams doesn't get a deal signed before free agency starts on Feb. 29 -- and Haynesworth is not his competition in free agency -- Williams becomes the premiere tackle on the market, and that will make the Packers' job very tough. The ripple effect of tagging Haynesworth, along with the reality of the Packers drafting Justin Harrell in the first round last year at Williams' position, could make the ability to keep Williams close to impossible. "Whatever Williams was worth last September," said one league personnel man, "it's triple that now, and it can only get worse." Think of the tight ends in free agency. The Eagles are slapping a tag on L.J. Smith, and the Colts will do the same with Dallas Clark. The tight end franchise tag is a reasonable number at $4.5 million, but the deals they eventually sign are going to have the Browns' Kellen Winslow looking at his contract like it is completely out of date. The rest of the free-agent tight end population isn't very impressive, but the draft class, led by USC's Fred Davis, just moved up a notch for teams such as Seattle, Carolina, Buffalo and Cincinnati that really need to upgrade the position. The financial compensation first- and some second-round draft picks make with no NFL experience has added a significant amount of pressure to signing young free agents who have proven themselves in the NFL. In the 2006 draft, for example, the 32 first-round players averaged $10.38 million of guaranteed money without ever stepping on a professional football field. Along comes a guy like Panthers offensive tackle Travelle Wharton, who is scheduled to be a free agent, and he looks at a deal D'Brickashaw Ferguson got coming out of college to play the same position. Ferguson's rookie deal has a $6.24 million average, with minimum triggers over six years. In order to keep Wharton off the market in free agency, the Panthers deliver a six-year deal that averages $6 million a year with $12 million of it guaranteed. The free-agent linebacker class this year is another interesting story that is developing quickly. The Ravens are tagging Terrell Suggs at $8.06 million. With one premiere linebacker off the market, the Cardinals then eliminated a second top linebacker by tagging Karlos Dansby. Now the path is clear for Lance Briggs, who can't be tagged again, to control the free-agency market, and his price just went up. Whatever deal Briggs signs will probably have a big effect on what Suggs and Dansby eventually agree to. The ripple effect of getting top flight players such as Suggs and Dansby off the market should continue down to a linebacker such as the Giants' Kawika Mitchell. He might never see the kind of money some of the 'backers above are going to, but his value on the open market just went up, and the Super Bowl performance didn't hurt his marketability. The Chiefs are not letting defensive end Jared Allen get away, especially after leading the NFL in sacks. Allen fully expects the franchise tag. All of a sudden, Tennessee defensive ends Travis LaBoy (six sacks)and Antwan Odom (eight sacks) look pretty good to a team looking for a defensive end, and they stand to get bigger contracts with Allen out of the way. Justin Smith was tagged last year and didn't have a great year numbers-wise in 2007. The Bengals would have to offer him 120 percent of what he made last year, which is $10.3 million. I think he will be a free agent at that number, and with Allen off the market, Smith might feel he can do better out on the street than by staying in Cincinnati. The Smith situation bears watching closely. Is there a team out there that will look at him the way the Seahawks looked at Patrick Kerney? Is he worth what a guy such as Chris Kelsey got in Buffalo? History says that some team will pay him significant money. "Don't let the production numbers fool you," said one GM. "He's getting action on the open market if the Bengals don't lock him up." Sure, the salary cap is headed to the $116 million range, and a large number of teams have the cap space to sign players. But as long as rookie first-round picks upset the market for veterans and tagged players shift the market to the next players on the list, the pressure to deliver big deals is going to grow. As I think about what Wharton got from the Panthers to not become a free agent, I can only imagine what their other tackle, Jordan Gross, is going to get to stay in Carolina. The franchise tag will be used if a deal isn't done in time, and that's a $7.45 million one-year contract. It might take a six-year deal that averages $7.5 million with $20 million guaranteed. Here's a team that lost their starting quarterback, finished the season ranked 29th on offense, and it will probably pay out $30-35 million in guaranteed money to its two tackles. The negotiating season in the NFL is a rough time for the guys doing the work at the bargaining table.
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1. U mention he arm tackles to much ... well your right .. but U appear to gloss over it like its a small liability .. well to me TACKLING IS THE #1 key to any LBer play ... and he is a HORRIBLE TACKLER for two reasons ....
Not glossing it over at all. It's a problem. I listed several liabilities. And I don't think he arm tackles all the time. But......he does do it too often. He isn't real light on his feet.
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2. U say he plays downhill very well .. I do not believe I could agree less .. you make a valid point when u say part of his problem is the guys in front of him and them not helping keep people off of him .. GREAT POINT ...
he also goes downhill well when there is ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IN HIS WAY or he is BLITZING in a GAP ... well who the hell couldn't do that??? actually IMO his biggest asset IMO is blitzing a gap .. he does this very well .. better than most ...
but there are MANY MANY OCCASIONS PER GAME where he goes directly to where he is suppose to be REGARDLESS of whats going on ... meaning he will PUT HIMSELF behind a mass of bodies and have 4 people between him and the ball carrier and "flow" downfield with this mass without ANYONE ENGAGING HIM ... he goes there on his own ...
Very valid argument. Again, I am not saying he is great. I just think that it is hard to tell how good he can be w/such a crappy d-line. Put it this way, bro. Right now......he is a better inside LBer than either Bruchi or Seau. Gawd, I hope people read that carefully.  But those guys can make plays because NE has a great d-line. Davis has played behind crap his entire career. And if he had a d-line that was similar to New England's or Baltimore's........then believe me........we would see him running downhill much more. And he is pretty damn good at it.
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DQ has a way of getting an angle most of the times the OLman get a free pass at him and he "slides" off the blocks using his shoulder pads and hands ...
does he do this often enough?? NOPE ... but he gets "driven back" and tottaly taken out of alot less plays than AD because he uses "angles" better when an OLman runs free at him .... now when they do get into him ITS UGLY ... *L* ..
That isn't what I see. And it is too hard to see it on TV, but I rarely focus on the ball when I am at a game. I watch the offensive line and the front seven. I think DQ gets blown up way more than people think.
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like I said bro ... AD is not near the biggest liability on this D ... we need a NT and another DE and another OLB alot more ... but his time is coming as he is just not that good ... he has his OWN ISSUES and there pretty big ones ...
And like I said, he will probably need replaced at some point.........but Savage can only do so much in one year. I hope he concentrates on the other areas I mentioned before he gets new ILBers. I could be wrong........we'll see.
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so although Opie may or may not have done well ... he didn't do any worse than most others ...
I've been giving Savage a lot of credit lately. So, you can't say that I am bad-mouthing him because I don't like him. I still maintain that first draft and FA period was el-stinko. Live and learn. I think he did learn. But, let's not talk about that draft too much on this thread. We can go at it on another.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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What do you think about switching Pool and Jones?
I like Jones, but he is not a FS. He doesn't cover the deep passes very well. He is most effective when he is closer to the LOS, where he can focus on the run and blow up receivers who run the underneath routes.
I think he was forced to play too much 2-deep this year, and that is why he struggled somewhat. Like I said earlier........I am pretty sure they won't replace Pool this year. And while our D should improve due to increased player production from the new guys Savage brings in----and I really believe he will work hard to upgrade the D--------I still think the D will be compromised by a FS w/poor instincts and no nose for the ball.
He reminds me of a huntin' dawg that has lost his sense of smell. He might look good running around, but he ain't bringing home no game.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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Peek never could play the run. It's why he didn't play all that much before he got here. And it is no coincidence that our run defense improved after Willie came back. I wasn't even impressed w/Peek as a pass rusher. Perhaps it was due solely to the minor injuries? I don't know......but, we need an upgrade at that position. Way more than we do at ILBer.
I was under the opinion that Peek didn't play much because he was switched to DE, weighing less than 260 pounds. His first year he did play LB but the switch to the 4-3 changed everthing for him.
Also are you sure they were minor injuries? He was in a boot for a very good part of the season. I believe he was injuried in the opener and never really healed. I don't think we know exactly what he can bring to the table as of yet. I'm not saying he isn't upgrdeable but I would rather focus on other areas first. We still need to sign a rb and Qb. Not to mention the amount it will take to get a couple of players for the dline.
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Well..........we'll see. I could be wrong about him. Hopefully, he is a stud.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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Well..........we'll see. I could be wrong about him. Hopefully, he is a stud.
Now I wouldn't go that far. I'm just hoping he can be a serviceable OLB until we can afford to upgrade him.
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If Savage doesn't upgrade that position in either the draft or in FA..........we can conclude his injuries held him back. Otherwise..........
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Vers, I am not sold on Pool either, It's just awfull hard to give up on someone with his measurables. he has the size, and speed that I love in a FS, but instincts are something that can't be taught and if you lack those, then you will never excell at the position. to bad we can't find someone with a mixture of Pool's physical prowess and Russell's smarts. Just a little plug here for one of my own App. State grads. If you get any draft info check this guy out: John Lynch-FS-App. State 6' 0" 205 lbs. Play-making safety returns for his fifth season in the Black & Gold ... looking to become ASU’s first three-time all-American since Dexter Coakley wrapped up his second-straight Buck Buchanan Award in 1996 ... ranks among school’s all-time leaders in interceptions (18) and fumble recoveries (6) ... Appalachian is 32-9 with Lynch in the lineup the past four seasons and 7-4 without him ... an even more telling stat to show that as Lynch goes, so do the Mountaineers: ASU is 15-0 in games when Lynch intercepts a pass ... in addition to being a ball-hawk, the 6-0, 205-pounder is also a sure tackler ... he needs just 73 stops this season to move into Appalachian’s top 10 for all-time tackles.
LINK Sorry for the home page link, but it's all I could find right now. He will problably be a late round pick, so we wouldn't be investing to heavily in a replament for Pool right away. The kid CAN PLAY, and if your looking for instincts, he has them. The one thing holding him back from being a higher pick right now is his speed, problably only in the 4.6 range right now. Oh, yea, he DID become a three time all-american as well
Last edited by ncdawg; 02/16/08 05:53 PM.
Born and breed with OSU, App. State alumni, but bleed orange and brown.
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A safety named John Lynch with great instincts and a good tackler? I'm in!
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His name is actually Corey Lynch.
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yea, guess, I got a little carried away there. No relation to John Lynch either, I checked on that the first time I heard his name 4 yrs. ago.
Born and breed with OSU, App. State alumni, but bleed orange and brown.
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Haha, I knew what happened. Hopefully he turns out to be like John Lynch if the Browns draft him. 
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I also think that NT is our most pressing need.
I would rank our defensive needs like this:
NT: We need a guy who commands double teams on most every play and does not give ground. S. Smith chooses gaps. He would be best suited to a 4-3 DT, but could play DE in our 3-4.
FS: We need a guy w/good instincts and a nose for the ball. We need a guy who doesn't take so long to react to every play. We need a guy who can cover the field and allow us to put more guys closer to the LOS, instead of dropping 7 to 8 on most plays to cover his but. This guy would allow Jones to move closer to the LOS, like he was the year before. He is more effective there and really helps out our run defense.
OLB: We need a guy who can get after the QB in a big way and also not lose outside containment on running plays. It is really important to get more pressure on the QB. I watched a lot of games this year, but if there was a team that gave the opposing QB more time to throw and w/more room to step up than the Browns......than I don't know who that team is.
DE: We need an all-around player at DE to be part of our rotation. One that can get some pressure on the QB in certain situations, but mainly be able to string out plays in the running game and not lose his gap responsibility.
ILB: I don't think it is a huge priority. I would like to see how both those guys would do w/an adequate defensive line in front of them and w/a FS who doesn't stand around watching the action behind them.
Well we agree on the NT  However IMO our two next biggest needs are DE's, followed by OLB, and MLB. Do we need another FS??? I don't feel like I am qualified to answer that one since I don't don't make it to many games anymore, and you really can't tell all the time with the TV coverage. I wish we would get more shots of the entire field on TV
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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if we can get DLmen that are capable of engaging/containing/tying up the OL as is their job, then the LBers could very well be a more effective unit.
Our LB's will never be effective unless Davis is replaced..
I have harped on him for several years because he is not a force and doesn't have the instincts to play the postion effectively..
Sure he works hard but he often takes horrible angles toward the ball carrier..
Too many times I'll see him shift and flow toward where he thinks the runner is going ..only to have a blocker steer him into that same direction and the back just shifts back the vacant spot..
Other times he follows the flow of the play and is too late getting back to the hole..and U rarely see him make a play at or behind the LOS..
Davis is good in pass defense but his run defense sucks..
DQ..the guy has the instincts but he's so lightweight he can't always hold his ground when blockers hit him...
Upgrade the line for sure but we need a force in the SAM spot..
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Bengals slap franchise tag on lineman Andrews for 2008 season
By John Clayton
ESPN.com
Cincinnati Bengals guard Stacy Andrews became the third NFL free agent to receive the franchise designation.
To keep him from leaving via free agency, the Bengals officially Monday gave Andrews a one-year, $7.455 million contract offer. Any team wanting to pull him away from the Bengals would have to give up two first-round picks.
Andrews helped anchor an offensive line that allowed just 17 sacks last season. Only New Orleans gave up fewer sacks, surrendering 16 in 2007.
Last week, the Eagles franchised tight end L.J. Smith and the Cardinals did the same with linebacker Karlos Dansby. Teams have until Thursday to designate franchise or transition tags.
Andrews' agent, Rich Moran, wasn't available for comment.
The Bengals have until mid July to work out a long-term deal with Andrews. If no long-term deal is worked out before mid-July, Andrews would have to play out the one-year tender.
This is quite surprising, they leave Justin Smith for FA??? WTF are they thinking??
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That Eric Steinbach has been in Smith's ear already. Honestly though, this is just like the Brown family to take the cheaper avenue. Ahh well, you think he would mind a switch to the 3-4? 
There are no sacred cows.
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No offense, but this article is posted in YTown's FA thread......where it probably belongs.
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None taken, I saw the article in the other thread right after I posted this. Thought I'd leave it to the refs to delete if they see fit. It seems I can't ever find an article that hasn't already been posted. On the other hand I seem to be the one that kills a lot of threads around here too. So if you need a thread killed just let me get a post in on it and it just might stop.
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