|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,813
Dawg Talker
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,813 |
I thought your years on the message board would have changed that opinion... 
...always have been, always will be...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683 |
I think the point is that how we get the information DOES matter. Googling a topic and copy and pasting it doesn't imply knowlege at all. Even Googling and reading about a specific event doesn't mean you know anything more than the answer to a pinpoint question on a broad topic. I don't think it's much different than using a calculator or a cash machine to add and subtract.
What you can find out will never replace what you know as a measure of intelligence. Critical thinking and reasoning ability will never be replaced by google either.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368 |
It's made it far worse. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 563
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 563 |
Quote:
Quote:
That leads us to the third and final factor behind the new American dumbness: not lack of knowledge per se but arrogance about that lack of knowledge.
Enter George Bush. This is exactly why our we're going down the tubes. Stupidity votes in stupidity backed by arrogance.
Soooo, the more intelligent people would have voted for Al Gore or John Kerry? 
The more intelligent people DID vote for Al Gore. In fact, the majority of ALL people voted for Al Gore.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Even Googling and reading about a specific event doesn't mean you know anything more than the answer to a pinpoint question on a broad topic.
I'm sure you meant it differently, but the way I interpreted this is like saying, "because my textbook in school allowed me to read about WWII, I still know nothing about WWII." 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683 |
Learning about WW2 takes time. Knowing the outcome of the battle of the bulge is just a very small part of it. The more knowlege one posses about the entire big picture, the politics, the people etc., the better an interpretation of any specific fact they will be able to offer.
I don't know what is difficult to understand. If you merely looked in the table of contents for a specific answer from a text book, would you assume you knew the subject?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368 |
I understood you, Shadow. Floridafan is just Dumb. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683 |
Thanks Jules. Sometimes I wonder. I never should have watched idiocracy.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Learning about WW2 takes time. Knowing the outcome of the battle of the bulge is just a very small part of it. The more knowlege one posses about the entire big picture, the politics, the people etc., the better an interpretation of any specific fact they will be able to offer.
I don't know what is difficult to understand. If you merely looked in the table of contents for a specific answer from a text book, would you assume you knew the subject?
And how do you think people should get that information? Or where should they look to find out how to get that information? I can't exactly hop in my time machine and go experience WWII.
I say Google is a good starting point. Just because someone uses it for research doesn't mean they are reading a blog by lilhitler354 and taking it all for truth. I can't even tell you the amount of stuff I learned just from the internet alone. From programming languages, to home remodeling projects.
The internet is a great resource, but it is just that, a resource. It's still up to the user to digest that information, and get multiple sources of that information to derive a conclusion on the subject matter.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955 |
Quote:
The internet is a great resource, but it is just that, a resource. It's still up to the user to digest that information, and get multiple sources of that information to derive a conclusion on the subject matter.
I use it all the time -- the internet -- to learn about things I'm interested in. I take a lot of it with a pound of salt, but I am smart enough to know the difference between opinion and fact.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368 |
Who said it wasn't a way to get information? Didn't see that at all. The comment was made that all the knowledge in the world is at your fingertips with google. That could not be farther from the truth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,145
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,145 |
Quote:
I think traditional styles of education are going on the wayside and we'll focus more on a discussion-based style of teaching.
Well it was whole language a few years ago. Trying to encompass certain ideas throughout all subjects. I thought it was a pretty smart idea.
Quote:
Knowledge is power, but we're a simple Google search away from all the knowledge we could ask for.
Ehhh, no.
Quote:
English, grammar and writing skills will always be essential, so will basic math, history and science. However, in our schools we need more of a focus on computer technology, how to use computers and new technology and media analysis and most of all, self-awareness.
I know my daughter is already working on computers and she isn't in 1st grade yet. Computer education is very imporant and should be expanded whenever possible.
Quote:
English needs more of a focus on modern-day literature. Why not analyze comics like we do Shakespeare and other poetry?
In college, fine. Not in high school.
Quote:
While we're at it, why not analyze film? I'm talking truly great works like Citizen Kane, Casablanca, etc.
I believe they are already doing this in some high schools.
Quote:
Most of all, one thing we never focused on in high school was the understanding of one's self and others beyond the whole "Teasing hurts" thing. That's one thing I've learned in many of my discussion classes, the more you understand yourself and others, the closer you are to TRUE knowledge.
I don't understand what you are trying to say. 
Quote:
I sound like I'm saying "bring college-style classes to high school." That's not exactly the case...I'm saying there's only so much traditional math, history, etc we can learn. High school education is such a narrow path...
You need to go through the basics to be ready for further education. Math is important. Science is important. Writing and reading (things I lack) are important. There really isn't enough time in high school to add all these additional electives, not to mention money.
Quote:
IMO, standardized tests aren't a solution. Some people aren't good test takers but are brilliant in discussion, while others sound like morons in discussion but are brilliant test-takers.
My wife is employeed by the state to teach kids how to improve on proficency tests. I'm glad to get the money but I think it is a waste of time. We should not be taking so much time teaching to take certain tests. I do believe testing is important but not the way it is done now.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,480
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,480 |
Quote:
My wife is employeed by the state to teach kids how to improve on proficency tests. I'm glad to get the money but I think it is a waste of time. We should not be taking so much time teaching to take certain tests. I do believe testing is important but not the way it is done now.
Amen. My mom is a teacher, and to hear about the stadardized testing amazes me. All the schools do now is teach to the stupid test - No Child Left Behind has to be one of the most rediculous laws ever enacted. School systems just care about their ratings now it seems....
Education starts at home, with parents who care about their childrens future. Too many parents look at public school as free daycare. 
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955 |
To you and Pdawg...I couldn't agree more. Teaching to pass standardized tests is crap. Just another reason to homeschool. 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711 |
Quote:
Who said it wasn't a way to get information? Didn't see that at all. The comment was made that all the knowledge in the world is at your fingertips with google. That could not be farther from the truth.
how is that further from the truth?
what is the internet anyway? its just a collection of infomation....some good some bad..
i look at the net as a huge library....when i was in school, i had the card catalog....you looked for a book on the topic you needed, and went and checked it out....
with the net its the same thing...now the net is also filled with a bunch of bs, but in general it amazes me what people will take the time to post...
tons of useful information...you can learn about almost anything....from the stupidest, to the most complex....its all in what you were looking for.....
when i was young, my dad was always reading....i got started with hardy boys books.....didn't learn a whole lot, but i did learn how to read well.....i could read a whole book in one day....
from there i branched off into fantasy, like the lord of the rings
i've also read other stuff like sherlock holmes, and agatha cristie...
what i learned was an avenue to learn from....now i read how to fix my computer...how to fix my car....whats wrong with the economy...
its all there for the taking....i fail to see how this makes anyone dumber...it all in what you aspire to....
as far as the different types of media, they all serve a purpose....with books some things are better....i have read somem very intense books that could never be reproduced in a movie....
movies can show some things better than books...pictures can help comprehension of words...video games can teach, as well as be mindless....
i used to hate story problems in math....they were difficult, they made you think....you can know all sorts of stuff but if you can't apply it to the real world then it means nothing...
puzzles in video games to much of the same thing...the same thing with those games that ammo was talking about...sure there is more to it than that in real life, but if your city goes to crap in simcity...there is a reason....and if your up to it you can quit, and learn nothing...cheat.....or learn...
its what you do with it thats important...
much of what is on tv is entertainment....thats all it is.....reality tv is all the rage, but its mostly stupid, petty stuff...
but you can turn on the discovery or history channel and learn about a specific battle in WWII or how something works....
that is something that past generations didn't really have access to...
access to information is a tool....it can be used for good or bad....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531 |
Quote:
I don't understand what you are trying to say.
Humans are social beings but are naturally isolationist as well. We may think we truly understand those around us, but we don't. Part of it is because we don't put in the necessary work to do so. Is it because of human nature or because of our culture?
It also comes down to taking a hard look at yourself and how you've grown and changed during your life experiences and how they affected you...then maybe you can understand why some people are how they are. Why James O'Barr wrote/drew a beautiful story of love (The Crow) that was based around awful violence, for example. Perhaps the fact that he was born to an alcoholic mother, lived in an orphanage for awhile, lost his fiancee to a drunk driver when he was 19, etc. His drawings and dialogue in The Crow was like therapy, basically. And it should be considered a timeless classic, IMO.
It's an idealistic viewpoint no doubt and has a very slim chance of actually happening, but if people took the time to learn more about each other, maybe there wouldn't be so much violence in the world. I think a lot of it starts in the classroom from a very young age when people start teasing. Having been on both the giving and receiving end as a youth, I think a lot of it centers around the inability to truly understand one another.
If there's someway to incorporate that into an education then maybe it wouldn't be such a dog eat dog world out there.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368 |
Quote:
Who said it wasn't a way to get information? Didn't see that at all. The comment was made that all the knowledge in the world is at your fingertips with google. That could not be farther from the truth.
Quote:
how is that further from the truth?
You truly think all the knowledge in the world is at your fingertips through internet search?
Quote:
what is the internet anyway? its just a collection of infomation....some good some bad..
Yes.....
Quote:
i look at the net as a huge library....when i was in school, i had the card catalog....you looked for a book on the topic you needed, and went and checked it out....
Uh-huh.
Quote:
with the net its the same thing...now the net is also filled with a bunch of bs, but in general it amazes me what people will take the time to post...
No idea what this has to do with anything.
Quote:
tons of useful information...you can learn about almost anything....from the stupidest, to the most complex....its all in what you were looking for.....
Useful information, sure, I've said that already. Can you learn anything and everything, absolutely not.
Quote:
when i was young, my dad was always reading....i got started with hardy boys books.....didn't learn a whole lot, but i did learn how to read well.....i could read a whole book in one day....
from there i branched off into fantasy, like the lord of the rings
i've also read other stuff like sherlock holmes, and agatha cristie...
That's nice.
Quote:
what i learned was an avenue to learn from....now i read how to fix my computer...how to fix my car....whats wrong with the economy...
its all there for the taking....i fail to see how this makes anyone dumber...it all in what you aspire to....
It's not ALL there for the taking. I really hope you don't believe that.
Quote:
as far as the different types of media, they all serve a purpose....with books some things are better....i have read somem very intense books that could never be reproduced in a movie....
movies can show some things better than books...pictures can help comprehension of words...video games can teach, as well as be mindless....
Yes....
Quote:
i used to hate story problems in math....they were difficult, they made you think....you can know all sorts of stuff but if you can't apply it to the real world then it means nothing...
puzzles in video games to much of the same thing...the same thing with those games that ammo was talking about...sure there is more to it than that in real life, but if your city goes to crap in simcity...there is a reason....and if your up to it you can quit, and learn nothing...cheat.....or learn...
I'm not really a believer that video games teach much at all.
Quote:
its what you do with it thats important...
Yes, but believing you can find any and all knowledge on the internet isn't really using your mind wisely.
Quote:
much of what is on tv is entertainment....thats all it is.....reality tv is all the rage, but its mostly stupid, petty stuff...
but you can turn on the discovery or history channel and learn about a specific battle in WWII or how something works....
Not sure what this has to do with my internet point.
Quote:
that is something that past generations didn't really have access to...
access to information is a tool....it can be used for good or bad....
Yep, and that's what the internet and search functions are, a tool in the vast wealth of learning and knowledge in the world...just one little tool.
Like I said, his statement couldn't be further from the truth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
SO in a round about way of saying it, you're saying that Basic College Sociology should be taught in High School? Because that is exactly what you were talking about. It's good knowledge to have and how the things you did in your life and how they form how you live now. But to believe that would solve a lot of our problems, I don't agree.
The main problem is that people don't want to take the time out of their lives to do something to stimulate their minds. I believe that kids in school should, at least, read their text books and there should be a strong focus on this in the class room. As for adults, I think that doing something like reading a good book that makes you think would be a good start and them maybe do something like a college course at a local community college, just to always be hungry for more knowledge.
Also, I think a lot of people in this thread are getting information and knowledge confused.
you had a good run Hank.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683 |
So, if one of my friends comes to me with a list of symptoms, can I diagnose and treat them? I have oftem performed this experiment with my brother and his psych patients. The bottom line is, if you think reference material, books or digital, are the same as knowlege and comprehension you not correct.
Google as a starting point or a reference source, sure. But actually learning something is more than just reading one reference, especially when it's a digital reference which is, most times, unverifiable.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Who said it wasn't a way to get information? Didn't see that at all. The comment was made that all the knowledge in the world is at your fingertips with google. That could not be farther from the truth.
I was replying to Shadow67 who said:
Quote:
I think the point is that how we get the information DOES matter. Googling a topic and copy and pasting it doesn't imply knowlege at all. Even Googling and reading about a specific event doesn't mean you know anything more than the answer to a pinpoint question on a broad topic. I don't think it's much different than using a calculator or a cash machine to add and subtract.
What you can find out will never replace what you know as a measure of intelligence. Critical thinking and reasoning ability will never be replaced by google either.
Basically, asking him how he expected people to get "what you know as a measure of intelligence. ".
My point was basically: You have to learn about things somehow, whether it is grandpa's stories, or falling from a skyscraper to realize what gravity is, or reading the encyclopedia set, or using the internet.
As I said, it is a great source, one the user must wade through the muck to find what is real, and any reasonable person can figure it out with enough resources to compare.
Quote:
Critical thinking and reasoning ability will never be replaced by google either.
That's common sense, since critical thinking is a human trait, and google is an inanimate object. No one was trying to replace critical thinking, just replacing the hard copy of Encyclopedia Brittanica(sp?) and often flawed school textbooks, with the internet.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711 |
ok, jules.....ALL of the knowledge in the world can't be found on the internet.....maybe his quote was an extreme...and maybe thats what you were reacting to....what if i asked you to prove it?  the fact remains that we have alot more access to information, than we did before the internet.... Quote:
It's not ALL there for the taking. I really hope you don't believe that.
i do believe that....this thread was about us being dumber because of tv, video, and computers and video games...
alot of people are dumb....but its not because of these things...they are tools..its how you use them...
i would say that if you want to learn something, that you have a much better chance now than in the past...
Quote:
I'm not really a believer that video games teach much at all.
thats fine that you think that....i do disagree...now i don't know what video games you play, so i won't knock your opinion, but games can teach strategy, logic, and problem solving....alot of games make you think...there are also alot that dont....
the ablility, to think,reason, apply logic are great things to learn....they used to call it "common sense" who cares if you can get A's if you can't apply it to life....
often times people take things to extremes...thats what happens in many threads, and in many problems that we debate....
knowledge is power
with an open mind, and a desire to learn, we have the capability to gain more knowledge than our ancestors....
if people are dumber, its because they are not being taught, or they don't want to learn....cause there is a ton of information out there if you look for it....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683 |
Quote:
My point was basically: You have to learn about things somehow, whether it is grandpa's stories, or falling from a skyscraper to realize what gravity is, or reading the encyclopedia set, or using the internet.
Did you ever go over the learning process in a basic science class. Basically the discuss a primitive being learning how to keep a fire burning. He has various meterials at his disposal and goes through size, shape, color, weight and so on before he actually determines some things burn and some don't.
You mention stories from your grand pa. If he's an expert on something, he is educating you about it. You are learning with out having to make the mistake of falling off the building.
Knowledge is not static. It is passed on, imroves and is taught and learned. I don't believe it is truly possible to learn by yourself. Self taught either means "has made all the mistakes" or "is in the process of making all the mistakes". A teacher may use reference material to save time, add value to words or speed up the process. The text are far less important than the learning. Sometimes, the facts aren't even that important, but the disussion and conclusions. I think this is what's lost to a great degree today. We're so set on facts, but many of the facts we hold dear are not true, with out the ability to think critically and a solid basis in education, we can't really learn.
I think the internet is great in too many ways to count. I think it's often misused and often incorrect. But I think you're missing the whole point.
INFORMATION IS NOT KNOWLEGE. You can be VERY dumb with tons of information and very smart with almost none.
Last edited by shadow67; 03/12/08 04:15 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Your right I must be missing your point, since my point is, "the internet is a great tool and resource" it is not the ONLY source or tool to learn, but it is a very good one that was not available 20 years ago, and used properly, can supply alot of knowledge and information to someone. Me personally, I use it as a resource. When I need to know how to re-tile my shower, I use the internet to start my research, get ideas, learn some basics. If that doesn't fulfill my needs to proceed, I then seek out advice from people that do tiling, or ai take a class. If that still isn't enough that I can take on the task, I either find another source of learning or source the job out, whichever is more effective at that point. (ie: doesn't make sense for me to quit my job and work with a tile contractor just to learn how to tile my shower.)
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224 |
Quote:
Now, almost anyone can reach millions with the push of one button!
That's kind of why i feel this way about the overall intelligence of people. Maybe it's always been there and just the truly revolutionary ideas got out there, but there is so much information out there that is flat out wrong or misrepresented by both forms of media (old school and new consumer journalism) that is taken as fact just because it's out there. Thats not saying theres some people with amazing genius out there blogging away about current trends in nanotechnology, but rampant ignorant arrogance is the precedent in this society.
Look no farther than someone like Paris Hilton who's reality show is about her and a cohort acting ignorant at everyday jobs and spouting things like "That's Hot." People actually envy the girl and emulate her! They see a blonde who has fun doing whatever she wants, while not paying attention to the ramifications of her actions. She is the iconoclast of this ignorance movement in my opinion.
Which brings me to something else. Blonde's are stereotypically ditsy, dense, and unintelligent. There are more blonde jokes out there making fun of this stereotype than probably any other joke. Since the 80's (or there abouts) it's also been said that Blonde's have more fun. We've seen the T-shirts and whatnot. But what it's inferring is that because of this lack of intelligence, blonde's have the knack to be more carefree, less worried, and just plain happy. Society is telling people that it's ok to be dumb, you'll be more happy that way anyways!
Bah i could go on into rap culture, sports culture, etc. it's all the same. Yes there are some geniuses out there, but they are the exception, not the rule
There are no sacred cows.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711 |
well they do say ignorance is bliss.... but i'm not blond
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224 |
Bah I'm not ripping on blonds, just their societal stereotype ... which is nonexistent. That was more of just an example.
There are no sacred cows.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,671
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,671 |
America doesn't mind appearing to be dumber!
Look at our pop icons. Do I have to accept the notion that some very successful pop stars and newly apointed movie idols are considered the voice of our generation[s]. Heck no I don't ...but many people do.
At one time the "smart" people were the ones who taught us physics and engineering, how to build a successful profit which aided our society in a humanitarian way or even in a defense motivated manner.
Today's we have genius people in computer grahics,music and dance. Many of our teachers are still terrifically smart even brilliant but media drives their contribution to the second team in our society.
When one episode of American Idol garners more watchers than all the Election debates this primary season combined there may not be any debate really necessary anymore on this topic.
If society determines that the actual act of studying logic, Latin, philosophy and debate along with a detailed history of our geopolitcal world is not any longer necessary due to computer generated information.....we are beyond help!
I think the situation where only a handful of today's kids...generally the private school educated ones... take such deep and thought provoking courses centralizes future power once again in elitist hands. The Jimmy Carter's of the world...the Ronald Reagans of the world...those who came from non Ivy league backgrounds are disappearing from the political scene. Being replaced by Ivy League cutouts of different parties but similar talents.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Look no farther than someone like Paris Hilton who's reality show is about her and a cohort acting ignorant at everyday jobs and spouting things like "That's Hot." People actually envy the girl and emulate her! They see a blonde who has fun doing whatever she wants, while not paying attention to the ramifications of her actions. She is the iconoclast of this ignorance movement in my opinion.
And they say the terrorists hate our freedom...*I* hate our freedom...this is what we've done with it? (David Cross)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368 |
You do have a flair for the melodramatic, Phil. I do feel sorry for those who "hate" freedom based upon how others choose to use it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368 |
Clueless in America BOB HERBERT Published: April 22, 2008 We don’t hear a great deal about education in the presidential campaign. It’s much too serious a topic to compete with such fun stuff as Hillary tossing back a shot of whiskey, or Barack rolling a gutter ball. The nation’s future may depend on how well we educate the current and future generations, but (like the renovation of the nation’s infrastructure, or a serious search for better sources of energy) that can wait. At the moment, no one seems to have the will to engage any of the most serious challenges facing the U.S. An American kid drops out of high school every 26 seconds. That’s more than a million every year, a sign of big trouble for these largely clueless youngsters in an era in which a college education is crucial to maintaining a middle-class quality of life — and for the country as a whole in a world that is becoming more hotly competitive every day. Ignorance in the United States is not just bliss, it’s widespread. A recent survey of teenagers by the education advocacy group Common Core found that a quarter could not identify Adolf Hitler, a third did not know that the Bill of Rights guaranteed freedom of speech and religion, and fewer than half knew that the Civil War took place between 1850 and 1900. “We have one of the highest dropout rates in the industrialized world,” said Allan Golston, the president of U.S. programs for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. In a discussion over lunch recently he described the situation as “actually pretty scary, alarming.” Roughly a third of all American high school students drop out. Another third graduate but are not prepared for the next stage of life — either productive work or some form of post-secondary education. When two-thirds of all teenagers old enough to graduate from high school are incapable of mastering college-level work, the nation is doing something awfully wrong. Mr. Golston noted that the performance of American students, when compared with their peers in other countries, tends to grow increasingly dismal as they move through the higher grades: “In math and science, for example, our fourth graders are among the top students globally. By roughly eighth grade, they’re in the middle of the pack. And by the 12th grade, U.S. students are scoring generally near the bottom of all industrialized countries.” Many students get a first-rate education in the public schools, but they represent too small a fraction of the whole. Bill Gates, the founder of Microsoft, offered a brutal critique of the nation’s high schools a few years ago, describing them as “obsolete” and saying, “When I compare our high schools with what I see when I’m traveling abroad, I am terrified for our work force of tomorrow.” Said Mr. Gates: “By obsolete, I don’t just mean that they are broken, flawed or underfunded, though a case could be made for every one of those points. By obsolete, I mean our high schools — even when they’re working as designed — cannot teach all our students what they need to know today.” The Educational Testing Service, in a report titled “America’s Perfect Storm,” cited three powerful forces that are affecting the quality of life for millions of Americans and already shaping the nation’s future. They are: • The wide disparity in the literacy and math skills of both the school-age and adult populations. These skills, which play such a tremendous role in the lives of individuals and families, vary widely across racial, ethnic and socioeconomic groups. • The “seismic changes” in the U.S. economy that have resulted from globalization, technological advances, shifts in the relationship of labor and capital, and other developments. • Sweeping demographic changes. By 2030, the U.S. population is expected to reach 360 million. That population will be older and substantially more diverse, with immigration having a big impact on both the population as a whole and the work force. These and so many other issues of crucial national importance require an educated populace if they are to be dealt with effectively. At the moment we are not even coming close to equipping the population with the intellectual tools that are needed. While we’re effectively standing in place, other nations are catching up and passing us when it comes to educational achievement. You have to be pretty dopey not to see the implications of that. But, then, some of us are pretty dopey. In the Common Core survey, nearly 20 percent of respondents did not know who the U.S. fought in World War II. Eleven percent thought that Dwight Eisenhower was the president forced from office by the Watergate scandal. Another 11 percent thought it was Harry Truman. We’ve got work to do. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/opinio...amp;oref=slogin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,368 |
Boortz added these to the list of problems: Teachers Unions. The teacher's unions constitute the greatest long-term threat to our nation. These teachers are so afraid of competition and losing their tax-payer funded salaries, and they have little invested interest in actually producing a knowledgeable generation of competent students. Because of teacher's unions we have little chance of getting any competitive influences working in our vast government education bureaucracy. Without competition there is no excellence. Government education was iffy to begin with, teacher's unions have only guaranteed failure. Entitlement culture. We are now living in a world where the government is expected to make sure that you can live a cushy lifestyle. The idea of personal success and hard work has been usurped by government entitlement programs. We're turning America into a giant assisted care living center. We are right now in the middle of the "I want my mommy" election. Work? Are you kidding? More and more people think that the purpose of work is to improve lifestyle while government takes care of the basics. With a culture that is unwilling to work to get ahead, there will be no growth in this country. Illegal immigration. Just yesterday on Nealz Nuze I told you countless ways in which illegal immigration is affecting this country. From the loss of tax dollars to the negative influence on American wages, illegal immigration is fueling nothing more than an underclass of uneducated government leaches. We're being invaded, and we're doing nothing about it. http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
We haven't had a Boortz report in a while.. Can't say I disagree with most of it...
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405 |
Quote:
Said Mr. Gates: “By obsolete, I don’t just mean that they are broken, flawed or underfunded, though a case could be made for every one of those points. By obsolete, I mean our high schools — even when they’re working as designed — cannot teach all our students what they need to know today.”
He didn't really say anything. I wish he would say what he means / would do....and I won't accept buying Windows Vista as a solution.
"My signature line goes here."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Quote:
a third did not know that the Bill of Rights guaranteed freedom of speech and religion
And with the revisionist history that some are teaching ... the rest of them forget the "Congress shall make no law" part, omit "peaceably" from the right to assemble, tack-on "and be listened to" to the end of the freedom of speech, add in the phrase "complete seperation of church and state" and also state that the press "is free from any act of responsiblity".
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Wait, the Bill of Rights... is that the one that starts out... We the omnipotent government of the United States, in order to form a utopian society, establish laws which will not be enforced, insure global tranquility, provide for the common defense without hurting anybody, provide the general welfare through government assisted economic equality, and secure the blessings of liberty to congress and senate but nobody else,... No, wait.. that's the other one. My bad.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,671
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,671 |
Quote:
Dumber ...... Lazy ...... More dependent ...... More complacent .....
We cater to the lowest common denominator instead of challenging the best and brightest. Worse yet, we do so out of some misplaced sense of "compassion". We refuse to allow failure, despite the fact that failure is often the very best teacher.
We carry those who refuse to provide for themselves.
We, as a society, seem intent on removing all incentive to excel, acheive and accomplish. It starts in homes, schools, our political centers, and even our news and entertainment.
The scariest part is that we get so tied up in our day to day lives that we ignore what is going on all around us.
You sir are exactly correct. Very well put and to the point.
In our haste to be "fair" we reward mediocre performance and lower expectations for everyone.
We are told as kids that many of us have conditions in our lives which make it most difficult to succeed so that a more level playing field must be enacted...who loses??? Everyone!
The underperforming students are bumped along while the really serious students are slowed down intellectually to their detriment.
These kids become adults with distorted views of true responsibility and many fail...wondering why they weren't cut more slack.
In a nation with so many opportunities and such a glorious history of inventions and ingenuity it is criminal to see the pitiful efforts being made to challenge young minds these days. A heavy load of homework is not desired as the kids need free time...extracurricular activities are no longer extra curricular-they replace school time and learning.
Internet advancements, wireless communications are rewards of scientific engineering developed through hard work, intellectual challenges and deadlines.....anyone here think the average public school student is expected to excel in those attributes today or tomorrow? I hope so but I doubt it.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
I think that the advanced students will still do well, the poor students will fail, and the middle of the road students will not meet status quo, which will be lowered by the time they get there.
We have lowered expectations to the point that anything is considered an achievement.
Do you see a Thomas Edison who quit school after 8th grade going on to make a huge contribution to our daily lives, coming out of today's system?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 563
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 563 |
I dont' think it's the kids that are stupid, or the teachers, or the system. I think it's us parents that are stupid. We are complacent to remain ignorant ourselves, and expect someone else to teach our kids for us.
And, unforunately, many of the parents who want to spend more time teaching their kids have to work too many hours because of how crappy our economy is.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,952
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,952 |
You have such a positive outlook on everything. I suppose now you consider it child abuse to send kids to public schools.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Is America getting dumber?
|
|
