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I think right now, you have to put your best relief guy into the closer role. I think at the same time if the situation dictates bring raffy in for a 2 inning save.
We know he can do it, we still don't know about Perez, Kobiashi, or Lewis, we need stability. I know it's robbing peter to pay paul but something has to be done. The Indians are kinda handcuffed right now.
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Also, to add to that......Betancourt has been awful as a closer in the past. Something like 12 for 29 in save opportunities. I might try Perez but only if I really thought Lewis couldn't get i done.
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I defended Boro a lot last year. When he gagged on a save chance, I had a feeling it was just a normal blown save any other closer goes through. And I was usually right. He'd go back out there and shut the door in his next 3-4 save opportunities. Yes he was shaky in those outings, but he got the job done to the tune of 45 saves (you don't get that many saves without major league talent).
Because of his shaky performances, I always had one strike on him as a closer. If he ever appeared to be completely losing it, I'd give him the second strike....that never happened last year. Well, that second strike came down last night. We needed that game for so many reasons. So now, he's one strike in my book away from losing his closers job with the Indians.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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In my book he's already lost his starting job with us, I mean come on, a fastball topping out at 83MPH? Ramirez was question about the Borowski pitch he said it was a fastball traveling somewhere around 80MPH, so it couldv'e also been considered a changeup.
I'm sorry with a one run lead you cannot throw 83MPH to the best hitter in the Red Sox lineup. I say put Joblow in the DL already and look for someone else. Because pitching fastballs at 83 will not cut it in the majors, most college players can throw harder than that.
Maybe we will make a trade for a closer, or next time we're in a save situation we'll give it to Jensen Lewis or someone like that. Just give the ball to anyone as long as it's not Borowski.
Find what you love and let it kill you.
-Charles Bukowski
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Right on, JoeBlow is throwing 83 mph heaters, Papelbon is throwing 89 MPH offspeed stuff. It just won't work, Joe is done, we can't waste anymore games by giving him time and chances to "fix" himself.
Joe was throwin 87-88 last season, makes you wonder if he was on HGH, now that he's off, he's went from bad to out of the league.
You don't make it long in college throwing 83-85 MPH fastballs, let alone to Manny Ramirez.
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Congrats on the first win of the series, G!
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Everyone is blaming Joe Blow, but what about the two boy geniuses aka Wedge and Shapiro? Didn't the manager of the year play a couple of games as a catcher in the minors? Can't he see there is something very wrong with the velocity of his closer? The Indians have coaches up the wazoo - none of these guys can see there is something wrong with Joe Blow? And what about Shapiro - he did nothing to bolster the bullpen (sorry, don't think the Japanese import is the answer either). The funniest thing in the ninth was to let Manny hit instead of giving him an intentional walk. Everyone is to blame for that mess last night. And, seriously, didn't all of us know Manny would get the job done ---- things never change.
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Quote:
Everyone is blaming Joe Blow, but what about the two boy geniuses aka Wedge and Shapiro? Didn't the manager of the year play a couple of games as a catcher in the minors? Can't he see there is something very wrong with the velocity of his closer? The Indians have coaches up the wazoo - none of these guys can see there is something wrong with Joe Blow? And what about Shapiro - he did nothing to bolster the bullpen (sorry, don't think the Japanese import is the answer either). The funniest thing in the ninth was to let Manny hit instead of giving him an intentional walk. Everyone is to blame for that mess last night. And, seriously, didn't all of us know Manny would get the job done ---- things never change.
I think that Shapiro always trying to find "lightning in a bottle" in these washed up, reclamation projects (Borowski, Hernandez, Jiminez, Danny Graves, etc) is very concerning but you can only get SO much blood out of a turnip. That "turnip" is Larry Dolan. The Tribe made offers to Trevor Hoffman & BJ Ryan but were turned down so attempts WERE made.
![[Linked Image from media.scout.com]](http://media.scout.com/media/avatars/1/6/GlennChannell.jpg)
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Quote:
And what about Shapiro - he did nothing to bolster the bullpen (sorry, don't think the Japanese import is the answer either).
So what exactly was Shapiro supposed to do? There are maybe a handful of solid closers out there, and teams that have them, aren't going to trade them. That leaves the free agent market ... Well, maybe if he broke the bank for Eric Gagne ... oh wait, he's doing even worse than Borowski. Well, I guess he could of brought in reliable gas-cans like Armando Benetiez, or Bob Wickman. 
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Devildawg,
I agree with all of that except for Jimenez. The guy was in his prime when we got him. He was coming off a magnificent previous season when Shapiro inked him. The guy just flat out sucked when he got here.
I heart winning
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Exactly, Boro was a bargin for what he did last year. He did lead the league in saves (please correct me if I'm wrong)!
There just isn't much out there to trade for (or sign).
We'll need to promote within, which will be a rough process. Being a closer is a pass/fail course. There is no such thing as a C+ or B- outing. You either give it up or get the job done. We all saw how Carmona did in the closers role two years ago (and people were calling for the head of Wedge on a platter for putting him out there like that).
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Perhaps that is the answer.. perhaps the answer is "closer by committee" for a little while, just let Perez or Betancourt or whoever pitches the 8th pitch the 9th if they are in a groove and get them an extra days rest... I don't know, I'm just about exploring options because the Borowski option isn't working...
yebat' Putin
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The "Boro option" isn't working right now. That doesn't mean he's 100% done for the year. I say sit him down for a week (manufacture a 15-day DL stint), bring him back as the closer and throw his ass to the curb if he tanks again.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Quote:
The "Boro option" isn't working right now. That doesn't mean he's 100% done for the year. I say sit him down for a week (manufacture a 15-day DL stint), bring him back as the closer and throw his ass to the curb if he tanks again.
Didn't scroll this whole thread but Tony Rizzo (WKNR) has already said that Borowski was placed on the DL. He's probably done in Cleveland.
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Sounds like wishful thinking. 
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Quote:
Why only have one closer?
Having one closer solidifies the bullpen and allows everyone else to fall into their role. The thing that always sticks out in my mind is Orel Hershisher describing this in the "Cleveland Rocks" video of the 95 Indians. He said that Mesa taking control of the closer role allowed the other guys, who were good relievers, to settle in to their respective roles (middle relief, setup, situational, etc) and focus on that.
That being said, something is wrong with Joe. I don't think anyone can disagree with that. He's just serving up pitches right now. I don't know if it's his shoulder or what but he's not nearly the same as he was last year. At this point, something needs to be done. The bats seem to be coming around a little, and once the weather warms up we'll be fine in that capacity. C.C. will be fine and the rest of the rotation (minus Byrd but he's only had 2 starts) is looking good. We need to be able to hold on to these late inning leads. If the results of Joe's tests come back bad I'd consider bringing up Adam Miller and plugging him into the bullpen somewhere and trying a few guys at closer. That completely goes against everything I believe in but we can't keep blowing these games. It's early but these loses are killing me, let alone the 25 guys in that dugout. Adam Miller has way too much value as a starter to put him in the pen long term, but we need to try something right now temporarily. Miller still has all of his options, to my knowledge, so that wouldn't be an issue at all. We shouldn't panic, and I know that Shapiro won't, but it's not too early to at least consider some options.
Time and change will surely show
How firm thy friendship
O - HI - O
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Bentencourt is best suited for the closer role right now in my opinon..at this time, he understands the game, is a veteran and can handle the day to dya presuures of closing, But thats me i'm sure theres plenty of other views. 
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Quote:
Quote:
The "Boro option" isn't working right now. That doesn't mean he's 100% done for the year. I say sit him down for a week (manufacture a 15-day DL stint), bring him back as the closer and throw his ass to the curb if he tanks again.
Didn't scroll this whole thread but Tony Rizzo (WKNR) has already said that Borowski was placed on the DL. He's probably done in Cleveland.
Wow, I guess the Indians front office read my post and thought it was the best situation.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Come on everybody. Joe's going to pull out of it, he will be just fin....... OH crap, even I can't defend him right now 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I wasn't even all that convinced last year that he was a good closer. Yeah, he had a lot of saves, but when you actually watched the game, you never felt like he had control of the situation.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Quote:
OH crap, even I can't defend him right now
And people wonder why we drink....... 
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Indians place Borowski on DL with strained triceps
April 15, 2008
CBSSports.com wire reports
CLEVELAND -- Indians closer Joe Borowski was placed on the 15-day disabled list Tuesday, a day after blowing a save and giving up a two-run homer in the ninth inning to Boston's Manny Ramirez in a 6-4 loss to the Red Sox.
The club said Borowski, who led the AL with 45 saves last season, has a strained triceps. He had been puzzled and frustrated by a significant loss in his velocity.
The club recalled right-hander Tom Mastny from Triple-A Buffalo.
With Borowski out, Indians manager Eric Wedge likely will turn to Rafael Betancourt as his new closer. Betancourt was one of baseball's top set-up men last season. He had three saves last season and has 12 career saves.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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I have a feeling if Betancourt does well in the closer role, last night will be the last time we see Borowski. 
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Quote:
I have a feeling if Betancourt does well in the closer role, last night will be the last time we see Borowski.
Key part is "if he does wll"
He hasnt exaclty been lights out this year either, and his history in closing situation isnt great either, granted anything at this point is better than what JoeBo was servin' up.
Eat it Phil...
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Maybe we just need to sign this guy: 
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I dont know, I heard he was in Cansecos new book.
Eat it Phil...
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Quote:
The club said Borowski, who led the AL with 45 saves last season, has a strained triceps.
"Strained triceps"?
Is that the official medical term for someone who stinks?
"My signature line goes here."
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I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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NO thats strained anus.
Aren't you the case study for this in the medical books?
"My signature line goes here."
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naaaa they needed to find somebody less dangerous
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the indians need to put him on the 15-year DL, not 15-day
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I say Perez. He's stayed cool in tough situations.
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Well, none of our pitchers, outside of Westbrook, have really been all that stellar. Even Betancourt and Perez have struggled more than they did last year.
But, it's still extremely early in the season. And, it is downright hard to pitch in crappy and cold weather. And, yes, I know it applies to Borowski, too. But, his problems were last year, too.
JMHO
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Quote:
Why not still bring in Betancourt and let him pitch a couple innings if he's got the stuff? Why only have one closer? Bring in Betancourt one game, Perez the next, Lewis the next, etc, especially if the Raffys pitch like they did last year. It drove me nuts when they would pitch great and then be pulled the next inning for no apparent reason, especially for Borowski.
The main reason is because relief pitchers are not conditioned for multiple innings. They condition their arms for quick recovery and really quick warm up. So in your situation Raffy would have finished the game (2 2/3 innings), effectively making him done at least three games. And that assuming he get through all those guys. What happens tomorrow or the next day while his arm recovers when we MUST get an out to win the game, bring in Borowski? You could very easily trade two or three wins for 1.
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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Don't be shocked to see Masahide Kobayashi givin a shot to close games.
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Good point. I hadn't really thought of the conditioning aspect. Personally, I don't have a real problem with the "closing by committee" of having different guys be the closers. However, I know there are logistical and strategic problems with that. My bottom line is: Borowski should not be the closer anymore.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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yes, but atleast last year he looked like he had a closer mentality to him, maybe it's the injury, but last night he was scared. period.
... and to your point above, I agree 100%.
Last edited by Flap; 04/15/08 05:46 PM.
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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i'd be down with that, I just don't want to pull our best situational pitcher out of a role that he is comfortable in (and in my opinion, much more difficult then that of a closer) because of the almighty "save". I see it as much more difficult to come in with 2 on and 1 out and not allow a run then it is to be able to take your time to warm up and begin in inning fresh.
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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Quote:
the indians need to put him on the 15-year DL, not 15-day
My guess is after the first 15 day stint on the DL he's put on waivers and then released. A guy that's throwing 83 at the start of the season is D-O-N-E.
My guess is Lewis is given the first opportunity, will pitch well and Borowski will be a complete afterthought in 15 days.
Betancourt has been awful in the 9th, I doubt he gets the call. It's Perez or Lewis....based on demeanor, Lewis seems to have that closers mentality we might be looking for.
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I remember last year when Wakefield pitched in the playoffs. All the Indians batters were still sitting way in the back of the batters' box, and the ball was breaking right at the front of the plate. By the time it got to them, it was dying, making it tough to hit.
I hope they're moving up this time. God knows they should be able to catch up to his 64 mph pitching.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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