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A rookie is a rookie...if your right why do so many other rooks outside of 1st rounders take veteran jobs away??? So Willie is automatically the better fit because he's played 15 years??
Your making a broad generalization which is MOST cases is true, but not always. In this case the vet is not as good as the 7th round rookie. Does that speak to how good Hall is or how bad Willie is? It happens every year, a late round pick *Marques Colston* *Brandon McDonald* *Tom Brady* *Josh Cribbs* (undrafted) off the top of my head.
RAC can playaround with willie all he wants, no signifigant changes in our passrush will occur until hes off the field.
I know, I know he must be better cause hes a vet...you need to get back to practice Romeo. 
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you named 4 players for the past how many years? each year, there are 32 rookies drafted in the 7th round alone (sometimes more with compensatory picks). further, you named a 5th rounder and two 6th rounders out of those four.
colston was a find. cribbs' impact was on special teams. mcdonald was a backup and did not start until forced to start.
just let it go. i don't get this hate on rac that he always sides with experience anyways. he plays the best player in the given situation. hall will get his time and he'll earn his opportunities. sheesh. you act like crennel favors players and he proves he doesn't consistently.
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When you give up close to 500 yards of offense there is nowhere to hide. I agree with you on the concept of the 3-4. Dick LeBeau runs the 3-4 the way that maximizes the scheme. My issue is game plan and adjustments. I have watched games where I have seen Belichick take away what an offense likes to do. I have also seen him make adjustments in games that determined the result. We should expect a consistent effort week in and week out. At this point with this team we should compete every week. This defense was hand selected. We are not starting rookies. We have had six months to prepare this roster. I don't want to hear about missed opportunities when you give up 500 yards on defense. They could have very easily scored 42 points. At the end of this year if this defense does not move up in the defensive rankings to somewhere in the middle Romeo needs to go. 
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At the end of this year if this defense does not move up in the defensive rankings to somewhere in the middle Romeo needs to go.
Even if we go 10-6 again and make the playoffs? 
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At the end of this year if this defense does not move up in the defensive rankings to somewhere in the middle Romeo needs to go.
Even if we go 10-6 again and make the playoffs?
Sorry to butt in,...10-6 AND playoffs is improvement, and shows cause for another year. Anything less is Good Night, Irene. That's just my opinion, but I expect the front office is thinking the same thing.
Last edited by OoooRahJoice; 09/09/08 02:37 PM.
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Dong-
When has RAC not shown favor towards players and coaches he likes...were you not around for Mo Carthon mess? He'd still be here if not for Phil and Randy forcing RAC to make him resign.
Willie wouldn't be starting for any other team in the league, if he could have still produced the Pats wouldnt have cut him.
Im not saying EVERY year your 7th rounder is good but here, in this, case he is. Im sorry you feel im attacking RAC, im not. But I certainly dont have much confidence in his ability to help us out defensively, the same defense that has finished at the bottom since he has been here.
This is not a "fire RAC" post at all!
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"Even if we go 10-6 again and make the playoffs? "
If we don't make that improvement and are again ranked 30th in defense.
There will be no 10-6 record and playoffs.
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Ammo, RAC is not gonna give Hall the job, you know that. Willie is his guy, his player, its almost creepy. Hall is probably the better player in every way right now, Willie is more disciplined. Of course thats a moot point if you dont make plays. Willie has a job for life here sadly.
We need Hall badly this week against Worthlessberger and Parker, speed is essential this week.Willie and Dra just kill our defensive speed. Pit's OL isnt as good as Dallas, with Hall in there, never know.
I totally agree, I've been harping on this for weeks ever since I saw that Hall could really play.
Roethlisberger can outrun Wimbley and McGinest. He can't outrun Wimbley and Hall. That extra bit of speed on the field is SO critical for this game due to his ability to get outside the pocket, especially to McGinest's side.
Ben probably has Willie's closing speed timed up in his head, knowing that he's not that fast. Why not put an "Oh crap!" in his head when he rolls out and Hall is charging at him with serious speed? This is assuming he can get off his block, of course. But I'd have to imagine the tackle (Willie Colon, who sucks) would eventually be forced to disengage or else draw a holding penalty.
Experience for speed, is it an even tradeoff if the player with speed has shown he can play pretty well against starters?
I'm going to agree with you ammo - I'll go you one further - experience for speed - is it an even trade off? No, speed wins in this case.
Watch Willie McG. run - he looks like Forest Gump with the leg braces on. The guy may know exactly where to be, the problem is, he can't get there.
Bring Hall in. I can almost guarantee his speed will more than offset Willies guise.
McGinest is about 4 years past being a good player. All he has going for him is his knowledge - his body cannot keep up.
Now, if we were talking about coaching, or running a business, give the guy with experience every time. We're not. We're talking about playing NFL football.
As I said, Willie may know where to be or where to go, he just can't get there. His running makes Bernie Kosar scrambling look like a ballerina - an olympic gold medalist.
Keep him as a coach. Keep him as a personal advisor. He can do both of them wonderfully. The guy just can't move.
Put Hall in, have him and Wimbley revving their motors and CAUSING havoc, as opposed to having Willie thinking "man, if only I could've gotten there".
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Dong-
When has RAC not shown favor towards players and coaches he likes...were you not around for Mo Carthon mess? He'd still be here if not for Phil and Randy forcing RAC to make him resign.
Willie wouldn't be starting for any other team in the league, if he could have still produced the Pats wouldnt have cut him.
Im not saying EVERY year your 7th rounder is good but here, in this, case he is. Im sorry you feel im attacking RAC, im not. But I certainly dont have much confidence in his ability to help us out defensively, the same defense that has finished at the bottom since he has been here.
This is not a "fire RAC" post at all!
hold on a minute there. first of all, i never accused you of a "fire RAC" post. second, we never once talked about coaches. how is this turning from "rac favors players" to now "rac favors players AND coaches"? is this your way of saving face? RAC was LOYAL to carthon and it proved to be misplaced. that does not prove that he FAVORS PLAYERS. even when we acquired shaun rodgers, shaun smith was still the started at NT until shaun rodgers beat him out of the position (which didn't take long). every single first round pick that we've had, which most team annoint as a starter, RAC makes them EARN the position. that is why he has the respect of his players.
neither you nor i know everything so we don't know why mcg is playing. i believe in his instincts but for you to just come out and say that he wouldn't start for any other team in the league can be wrong. people used to argue that brian russell had no physical ability and couldn't be starting anywhere else and yet, he's starting for the seahawks right now. to make such a broad argument is a fail.
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Agree to disagree bud...Willie is long gone as a player, if I can see that being just a pee-on fan, then so should RAC. I wouldnt say he makes people earn a job, I think he lets vets loose it.
Its moot for people argue about this, nothing is gonna change, Mcg will still run gimpy behind RB's and watch QB's run away.
In this situation ill take the speed over age.
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I'd really like to hear CoachB's thoughts on this, considering he criticizes me for being an armchair coach and disagreeing on QB's.
Maybe we might have a common ground here and I am, in fact, not crazy.
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i have to wonder how alex hall is performing in practice and whether or not he's doing well on a consistent basis. hall did well in preseason but if he's making mistakes (as i would expect since he's a 7th round rookie), i can see why he didn't see the field much against a very tough dallas offense. i also get the feeling that, had our opponent been the bengals or some other god awful team, we would've seen more of hall but because we played against one of the best teams in the nfl, it's only reasonable to see more mcg than maybe even rac wanted.
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Well, my thoughts are a little bit in the middle. I understand you need speed and Hall has it. I also understand that the first two games are against serious playoff contenders and you might not want to throw a rookie into that kind of fire right away. That's why I think Willie is still in there at this point. I think that Hall has shown some great ability, but I also think he would have not had much more success against the Dallas O than Willie did. Remember, this is a guy from Division 2 to the NFL. I would hesitate to pull the trigger and have him staring the first game of the year. As he year progresses, I think you'll see Hall phase Willie out.
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I've read your rants about the "scheme" and took some time to digest them. If the "sheme" is so terrible, please tell me how in the name of all that is holy did it work so well and result in Super Bowl championships? If RAC is such an idiot on defense, how did he manage to be one of the best DCs for years? How did the Patriots ever manage a win, let alone a championship, with such a terrible scheme?
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As he year progresses, I think you'll see Hall phase Willie out.
I can't believe I had to read all the way into page 2 before reading this all-important sentence.
Hell, Coach... if you hadn't beaten me to the punch I was certainly going to post it.
Too many fans seem to be "all or nuttin'" hair-trigger shootists around here. Kid has amassed all of 4 NFL (preseason) games in experience. Some of you guys are acting as if the coaching staff placed him on the PS.
If WE can see the kid's potential, I'm sure it hasn't been lost on the staff. My guess is that he's getting coached up on the hurry, while Willie holds down the post for now. As the season progresses (and Hall progresses) you WILL see more of him.
Geez guys... the 2008 NFL season is exactly one hour old.
deep ones in/deep ones out.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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I've read your rants about the "scheme" and took some time to digest them. If the "sheme" is so terrible, please tell me how in the name of all that is holy did it work so well and result in Super Bowl championships? If RAC is such an idiot on defense, how did he manage to be one of the best DCs for years? How did the Patriots ever manage a win, let alone a championship, with such a terrible scheme?
(and yes I'm mostly joking although he's a hell of a QB)
And Clem, I never said start Hall and play him every snap, I'd like to see him play in passing downs though.
Last edited by Ammo; 09/09/08 06:25 PM.
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Did he play safety, too?  The fact is that the "scheme" worked with a WR plyaing DB
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I've read your rants about the "scheme" and took some time to digest them. If the "sheme" is so terrible, please tell me how in the name of all that is holy did it work so well and result in Super Bowl championships? If RAC is such an idiot on defense, how did he manage to be one of the best DCs for years? How did the Patriots ever manage a win, let alone a championship, with such a terrible scheme?
Don't you know? It was Belichick's scheme not Romeo's.
you had a good run Hank.
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It could just be me, but I remember the Patriots' D playing more aggressively and from beginning of snap to end.
I always think about their Super Bowl victory against the Rams. They really punished anyone who tried to cross the line of scrimmage with the ball. I would kill to see that kind of punishing aggression.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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The "scheme" worked before Rac and oddly enough,it worked well after he left.
Of coarse it helped that the Pats were loaded with probowlers on that side of the ball.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Romeo's scheme didnt work for the Patriots. Bellichek's scheme was ran by Crennel. Just like Romeo's scheme is being ran by Mel Tucker.
RAC wasnt one of the best DC's for years, going off of memory his only time at DC before the Pats was his time here and do u really want to remember how that stint went. I didnt think so lol
The Pats won because Bellichek was the control freak and didnt allow Romeo to Fudge things up. Defense is his baby and doesnt matter who the DC is up there its his show.
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Romeo's scheme didnt work for the Patriots. Bellichek's scheme was ran by Crennel. Just like Romeo's scheme is being ran by Mel Tucker.
RAC wasnt one of the best DC's for years, going off of memory his only time at DC before the Pats was his time here and do u really want to remember how that stint went. I didnt think so lol
The Pats won because Bellichek was the control freak and didnt allow Romeo to Fudge things up. Defense is his baby and doesnt matter who the DC is up there its his show.
THERE IT IS!
I knew it was coming. I don't give a flying Dutchman if we are last in the NFL in defense, as long as we win the damn game.
you had a good run Hank.
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LOL, yeah, RAC didn't do anything with the Pats defense. It was also all Parcells when he was with him, too, huh? 
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"The Pats won because Bellichek was the control freak and didnt allow Romeo to Fudge things up."
This statement is simply incorrect.
It's false, misleading, and smacks of "personal spin."
By Bill Belichick's own admission, Romeo schemed the D and ran it. Patriots players have been asked about it in public intervews as well, and have said the exact same thing. Tedi Bruschi, Richard Seymour, and even Ty Law sounded like members of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in their praise for Romeo:
''Romeo makes the game plan, conducts our meetings, calls the defenses in the games and runs the entire defense,'' cornerback Ty Law said. ''Bill Belichick puts in the flavor and makes suggestions, but Romeo puts in his imprint, too, and runs it. He is a man of class and he is a distinguished person. He would be a distinguished head coach. Somebody one day soon is going to make him a head coach, and the teams that miss out that could have had him will regret it.''
New York Times article: 12/23/2003 : Romeo A. Crennel
then, there's this one:
"The defense will likely be a carbon copy of New England's 3-4 scheme, with plenty of complexity.
That alone should be the biggest hurdle for Crennel with the Browns. Assembling a defense with New England's playbook – reputed to be one of the most difficult to master in the NFL – will require finding players who can handle massive amounts of information and be able to recall and maximize schemes that could undergo wholesale changes from week to week.
"You can't be a dummy and play in our system," Patriots safety Rodney Harrison said. "We have so many adjustments week in and week out to deal with. You have to be able to adjust on the go. Sometimes we might cover something in training camp and we might not get back to it for a month."
There's no reason to think anything different will be expected from the Browns under Crennel, especially now that he's bucked the popular misconception that he's simply a caretaker for Belichick's planning. New England's acclaimed linebacking corps wastes no time lavishing praise on their coordinator.
"Part of the mastermind behind the scheme," Roman Phifer said.
"Imperative to us and our success," Tedy Bruschi added.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-crennel020205&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
...and flag me for "piling on," (Olde Schoole, I admit, hehe...) but I just had to add this one, in terms of Romeo's approach to Head Coaching:
(from a Charlie Weis interview...)
""I went to (Belichick) and I wanted to know how he went from being the best defensive coordinator in football to allowing Romeo (Crennel) and Eric (Mangini) and Dean Peas to run the defense?" Weis said. "I asked him how do you cut the cord? How does Andy Reid let Marty Morningweg call the plays when he's always been the play caller?
"The bottom line from both was they believe it gives you the opportunity to be a better head coach."
You know- I've respected your football knowlege and acumen for years, Mourg... and will continue to do so... but on this one, you're just plain wrong.
________________________________
Honestly, I don't know why I keep hammering this stuff at deaf ears over and over and over. I guess it's just my stubborn nature.
What a bummer. We Cleveland fans have him... and a good number of us still don't appreciate it -on even the slightest level.
For the time being, I'm still willing to believe the assessment of someone like Ty Law over ANYONE who simply "posts on a fansite message board."
It's a matter of credibility with me... and compared to the guys I've listed in this thread- you lose.
Thanks for playing- try again.
.02
Clemdawg
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None of that makes him a good Head Coach.
He is in over his head.
See my signature.
Oh yeah...I hope like crazy he proves me wrong...I just think he's taken us as far as he can.
IMO, it will take someone else to push us to the next level.
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its the pats they lie about everything lol
they were trying to help him land a HC position.
Last edited by Mourgrym; 09/10/08 12:27 AM.
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its the pats they lie about everything lol
they were trying to help him land a HC position.
Wow.
you had a good run Hank.
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"Honestly, I don't know why I keep hammering this stuff at deaf ears over and over and over."
Dude- you just made my case... in spades.
let's see....
Richard Seymour.
Tedi Bruschi.
Ty Law.
Bill Belichick.
Nationally published sportswriters...
...or (please don't make me laugh...)
"WSU Willie"....
Dawgs- You make the call.
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Quote:
Quote:
"Honestly, I don't know why I keep hammering this stuff at deaf ears over and over and over."
Dude- you just made my case... in spades.
let's see....
Richard Seymour.
Tedi Bruschi.
Ty Law.
Bill Belichick.
Nationally published sportswriters...
...or (please don't make me laugh...)
"WSU Willie"....
Dawgs- You make the call.
I may have made YOUR case...but Romeo has made mine.
I don't need an expert to form an opinion that RAC is in over his head as a Head Coach...as I've said, I hope he proves me wrong.
I would laugh also...but it's not funny.
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humor...
...always an effective dodge.
all kidding aside- I only called you on this one because I'd remembered so many quotes from articles I'd read when Romeo got hired. At the time, I'd only known him for his "UFO Defense" during the Chris Palmer era. Needless to say, I wasn't particularly impressed- so I started looking at him deeper... and that's when I found the kind of stuff I quoted in my earlier post.
Mind you- I wasn't immediately sold even after reading those articles. What sold me was reading interviews of players on our own team after Romeo's first and second years here... they sounded just like the quotes from players and coaches who had extensive history with him.
That spoke volumes to me. Even though our players were still on a team that was an NFL laughing stock, they said the exact same things that were mentioned by NFL champions.
Here's what I got from that: from the bottom to very top of the pro ranks, EVERYONE had the same high regard for this man.
------------------
While you've seen RAC as inept, out-coached, and in over his head, I see a coach who has continually adapted- in an attempt to successfully coach a team which has never had a consistent core on either side of the ball... or even within its coaching ranks.
Revolving door = unpredictable results.
It ain't all the Head Coach, as simple as that might make it for all of us.
For myself, I can only represent what I see: this man has conducted himself like a true professional. He's worked with his GM, his continually-evolving roster of players, and a continually-evolving staff to put his (Our) team on the map... for the very first time- since 2003.
(That's an entire half-decade, for those of you who are counting...)
Yeah, I guess you're right- we could've done a whole lot better with the choices (and team talent) available...
Since we both want the same thing-
-Maybe the only (big) difference between you and I is a sense of perspective....
just sayin'...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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You made your case man...With FACT...
All else is OPINION...
I can tell u guys this...IF we get SWEPT by Pittsburgh...And the 2nd game is the last of the season...It will be real interesting to see what Lerner has to say to Savage about it...8-8 or 9-7 and SWEPT by Pitt yet again may just be enuff to make the call...
The call to "The Chin"...
And guess what...We KEEP the 3-4 D going...Cause if we need to change to the 4-3 it will be several years before it becomes worth a chit...
BUT...As I said...We have a talented team...We will come out "Clickin'"...
I GUARANTEE A WIN SUNDAY NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Go Browns!!!
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All this arguing is a worthless whether or not it was "RAC'S" defense in NE.....that scheme is not being implemented here. Our scheme blows, and our players arent much better.
"maybe" better players will help, but as long as we have this 4-3 hybrid defense and continue to cycle players in out, I dont see how we will improve much. Personally I still feel we are way to much "on the fence" with our defense. Its great to show different looks, but we rarely lineup as a true 3-4 defense.
It kinda defeats the purpose of the Browns spending lots of money and draft picks on players who fit the 3-4, only to have them playing in 4-3 / 5-2 defense.
NO matter how you look at it, to this point, RAC defense has failed in Cleveland. Why is debatable, but it has. But plenty of headcoaches have failed at their specialty and still won. We have to give it a bit more time before we break out the torches and start busting down doors to run RAC out.
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We have to give it a bit more time before we break out the torches and start busting down doors to run RAC out.
yupyup.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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J/C
Romeo is the Bill Billick of defense.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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J/C
Romeo is the Bill Billick of defense.
He did get a ring u know...
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,177
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,177 |
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
the love child of Bill Bellichick and Brian Billick?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,177
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,177 |
Oh...that guy in the Ravens hoodie with the sleeves cut off....screaming at the refs, throwing his headset around.
Bill Billick....a great coach!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,682
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,682 |
Quote:
the love child of Bill Bellichick and Brian Billick?
Naaa....his friends called him Bill
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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