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What makes a football person??
The point is I don't think you rule someone out because they fit whatever image of "corporate" you might have.
If you have good scouts, why can't a suit make the decisions??
Because the suit doesn't have the slightest clue on how to build a cohesive football team.
Even with good scouts...would you really want the corporate guy handcuffing the supposed GM even though the team is WAY under the salary cap and the cap guy is brilliant with wording contracts?
"Sorry, you're not keeping the #5 pick in the draft because you have to pay this much bonus money, it's a bad investment." Even though a guy you covet is on the draft board.
"I know we have a hole at linebacker but you're not gonna throw this money at X player. We need to worry about Randy Lerner's pocketbook!" Even though the Browns will be profitable no matter what?
As long as the cap space is fine, there's no reason to curb spending in the NFL, none. Profit is almost guaranteed.
The Salary cap doesn't ensure an NFL team is profitable...I don't know where you got that from. Staduim Revenues, Season tickets, Concessions, a portion of the Direct Tv deal(That is approtioned to each NFL Team), and Advertising deals is what makes the franchise profitable...you think the NFL just doles out a free 200 million a year to each franchise? your dreaming!
Atleast Ballpeen and a few are others are starrting to see that a nice CEO/President could help things here greatly.
The CEO IS NOT going to Tell the GM who he can sign or who he an draft.
The CEO is going to HIRE the people who can get the job done.
The CEO is going to evaluate the Organization and its employees to ensure they are doing their jobs!
The CEO is going to make the "yearly budget" and tell them how much money they have to spend that is "reasonable"
Ozzie Newsome has a Boss(CEO/President) and it seems to work ok for the Ravens.
Ballpeen has it right, the CEO will be the buffer Between Lerner and the Organization...the guy that will be here "All the time" as Randy Lerner's guy running the franchise that will keep Lerner informaed on what is going on, what needs to be done, and the running of the business and market side of the team.
The CEO lays out the budget and tells the football people how much they have to spend.
Then The CEO just gets out of the way....but the GM will be held accountable to the CEO for a bad investment such as Stallworth....In other words, the CEO is the GM.s Boss
This organization needs a President Badly...the guy that will be here all the time as the buffer between the GM and Lerner, the guy who runs the day to day operations of the Franchise and who is responsible for Evaluating theperformance of the staff, and the guy who does the primary hiring for the organization.
CEO's make good hiring decisions. The CEO will pick the best coach and best GM for the job...this is what they are here for..and if the GM and Coach aren't cutting it, he confers with Lerner and tells Lerner what is going on, and then takes immediate steps to rectify the situation....
The CEO gives our Front Office and nice stroing base to work with...the Buck stops at his desk....at the top...this is what we need, accountability and good sound management
glad to see Ballpeen and others see the value in this move
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I thought we would be 7 - 9 to 9 - 7 ... with 6 - 10 a possibility if the wheels fell of ... but I won't waste any more time on that as we both know why U really posted this here .. and thats OK .. its about all I expect from U anymore ..
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Diam, nobody knows what "your expectations were".
Actually theres 4 or 5 posters that know what my expectations were ... just becuase there not posted on here does not mean I did not make them ... I haven't posted them the last 3 or 4 years cuase its fun to watch U all whine about me not doing it .. thats lots more fun than actually posting them ..
And its not like I ever run around saying .. I CALLED THAT YEAR ON THE NOSE AND U ALL MISSED IT ... thats not what I did here either ... I simply stated my expectations were alot lower than most and that with the train wreck the season turned into .. (sumptin no one could have predicted ..cause a big part of the train wreck has been injuries) ... that i am not near as UPSET AS MOST ..
thats all i was doing here .. I never tooted my horn and did nuttin remotely close to that ... but U gotta twist and take a dig ..... like I said .. I don't expect much out of U anymore and u didn't dissapoint once again ...
Happy Turkey Day Pit ...
Diam...yea, your the brillant one, alright...lol
...reading everyone's predictions then making yours "public" 11 games into the season, claiming a few did know your prediction, even if you didn't post it.
...next time, man up and post it like the rest of us did...mine is below... 
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mac
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Re: Come One Come All .... ITS PREDICTION TIME ... [Re: BrownsFan337]
#439890 - 09/02/08 11:50 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
7 wins...9 losses...
And, yes, it hurts to be brutally honest about my Browns.
I do hope I'm wrong...but that is my prediction...mac
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....WOOF....GRRR....CHOMP....MAC
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FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_TannenbaumMike Tannenbaum is the general manager of the New York Jets. At the age of 37, Mike is one of the youngest general managers in the NFL. He graduated in 1987 from Needham High School in Needham, Massachusetts. He graduated ... Laude from Tulane Law School where he earned his certificate in sports law. He also received a degree in accounting and a minor in sports management from the University of Massachusetts. He was hired by the Jets on Feb. 2, 1997 and served in numerous administrative positions with the team, including senior vice president of football operations and assistant general manager. In 2006, Tannenbaum succeeded Terry Bradway as the Jets' new general manager. In his first NFL Draft as general manager, he drafted University of Virginia offensive tackle D'Brickashaw Ferguson with the 4th overall pick. Other notable selections included Ohio State center Nick Mangold with the 29th overall pick, University of Oregon quarterback Kellen Clemens with the 49th overall pick, and Florida State University running back Leon Washington with the 117th overall pick. In his second draft, Tannenbaum decided to trade up from the 25th slot to draft Darrelle Revis, a cornerback from the University of Pittsburgh. Tannenbaum continued dealing in the 2nd round, in which he traded up to get inside linebacker David Harris from the University of Michigan. Tannenbaum also drafted Jacob Bender, a tackle from Nicholls State and Chansi Stuckey, a wide receiver from Clemson. Born in New York City, Tannenbaum lives with his wife Michelle and two children, Ella Morgan and Jacob Harry, on Long Island. ................................................................................................... Not a classic "football guy".....you asked. AD....I didn't see your question earlier.... Yes...the two are what I have said all along....they are tied closer together than most thought. A week ago, very few thought that Savage might actually be looking to salvage his job. Lerner had a perfect opportunity to give Phil a vote of confidence....he responded by saying he would make a decision on him at the end of the year.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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A week ago, very few thought that Savage might actually be looking to salvage his job.
Lerner had a perfect opportunity to give Phil a vote of confidence....he responded by saying he would make a decision on him at the end of the year.
Just commenting............
Consider what the ramifications would be if Lerner said "Yes, Savage will be here next year."
Then followed with this statemet:
"I'll wait until the season is over to evaluate Crennel."
Lerner can't give one guy a pass without doing so with the other. The media would have a field-day with such a statement.
I'm not presuming to know what Lerner is thinking (though it wouldn't be the first time I've done it  ) but it's impossible for Lerner to give Savage a vote of confidence then not give one to Crennel. He's allready quite-nearly a dead man walking. To give Savage a  then follow that with a "hmmmm....." for RAC would deteriorate an allready dicey situation in the lockerroom and on the field.
Lerner may have cooled on Savage because of the email dumnessidity, but I don't believe we can read anything into his comments or non-comments because of what I've mentioned above.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I'm a bit confused. In previous years when Lerner or Savage made a "vote of confidence" it was a sign by those that wanted RAC gone because Lerner is supposed to say tha RAC would be gone. Now that he said he would wait until the end of the season to make any judgements, itis a clear sign that RAC is going to be gone and Savage as well. Is it possible that some are just reading into things whatever they want them to mean? 
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Really man....I understand that.
Any way you want to cut it...Savage is hooked in with Romeo...he may still survive the fall of Romeo, but he isn't as insulated as people thought, and the happenings of the last week or two demonstrate that.
Now, if my using the term "tied" has some people tied up....call it he isn't on his own island in all of this.....Lerner views it a a team effort....team effort as in Romeo and Savage
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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So please tell me what a CEO would do better than Randy Lerner at hiring people?
You're saying the CEO outlines the budget for the GM...the salary cap IS the budget! Or it damn well should be at least for the football expenditures.
You're saying the CEO would hold Savage accountable for the Stallworth signing...don't you think Savage is holding himself accountable? Or Lerner is?
The Browns have people who run the day to day operations of the business! Mike Keenan is the President. We already had a CEO, his name was Carmen Policy. Look how that turned out.
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Just curious .... what does any of that have to do with letting a business man run the football side of your football operation??? ..
Peenie ... the jist of your argument is that it is possible a non football guy is capable of making the right decisions .... correct?? .. well that would also mean that it is possible a first year attorney is capable of doing a judges job ... it also means that it is possible that a 5th year attorney is capable of making the right decisions for the Supreme court ...
thats by your logic anyhow ..... U want to throw out the years of experience a football guy has and render them as useless ... just like in my examples I throw out a judges years of experience as a lawyer and then a SC justices years as a judge or being in the system ....
just like being a lawyer does not ensure that person will be a good judge being a football person does not ensure they will make a good GM .. but it sure as hell INCREASES THE ODDS GREATLY .... these guys have trained and been preparing for the job over many years .... don't discount that ..
now go ahead and name me one business man that has been the GM and led his team to the SB .. go ahead ... the best example U have is Jerry Jones .. well its no coincidence that when he bought the team he handed it over to the Hair .. had great success .. he fired him cause he thought he could do better ... THEY STUNK .... he brings back the Tuna and hands everything over to him ... they get good again ... then he decides to tamper and bring in TO forcing the tuna out ..and he is now the GM in everything but name ... and there on there way back down again ....
U can't name one success story of a business guy taking his team to the SB ... and theres a reason for that .....
also U show your lackof knowledge with the statement that they all use basically the same info and the draft is 80% luck ...
they have scouting staffs and go watch these guys for a reason .. and its not cause there all using the same info .. they may have a system in place that gives them the basic info on a player .. but then there scouts and GM's and coaches take over and it is that info that they base there final decisions on ...
Diam:
A CEO did take a team to the SuperBowl, very recently actually
Seattle Seahawks..Paul Allen Former Microsoft CEO is owner and President of the Franchise...he runs the whole show..he bought them in 1997...they stunk for years...they were in the Super Bowl against the Steelers a few years ago. He turned then around in 5 years...
Seemed like that "Suit" made some pretty good decisions to me...he is the one who hired Holmgren, and the GM, and he is the one who oversees them and has the FINAL say on all things that happen in that Organization...good enough for them, good enough for me.,
http://www.seahawks.com/team/staff/index.html
Look at the Seahawks...they have Allen AND a CEO...they have bocome a very sound organization...we need to take notes!
Allen's Bio...for your viewing pleasure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Allen
As for Spending money, Im all for spending money "within reason" the rule of thumb is you NEVEr spend more than 65% of your total operating income....always save 20% not for your pockets, but when the "time comes" that you need that one piece to win a championship, you can deal out that one "micheal jordan" deal for that 1 guy that will get you your ring without hampering the financial status of the team, because you saved for a rainy day....not to metion that money can be used to upgrade the entire training facilities every 3 years....that would be really nice
Bring on the Chin and Bring on "The Suit" to go with him
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So please tell me what a CEO would do better than Randy Lerner at hiring people?
You're saying the CEO outlines the budget for the GM...the salary cap IS the budget! Or it damn well should be at least for the football expenditures.
You're saying the CEO would hold Savage accountable for the Stallworth signing...don't you think Savage is holding himself accountable? Or Lerner is?
The Browns have people who run the day to day operations of the business! Mike Keenan is the President. We already had a CEO, his name was Carmen Policy. Look how that turned out.
The CEO will do "All" of the Homework and interviewing and all the processes required for picking a GM/Head coaching Candidate...do you really think Randy Lerner has a month to spare to do nothing but "investigate" a Coaching hire? This is what the CEO is for. THen the CEO confers with MR.Lerner and with a big write up paper presents the facts to him and an "Educated" recommendation on who to hire.
The Salary cap is "not" the Budget....how many times must i explain this to you...I guess its easy blowing money when its someone Else's money isn't it? The budget is this (All the "Successful" NFL teams follow this kind of budget:
Operating Revenue + Advertising Revenues - Debt Payments - Operating Expenses = "Net Profit"
After you get Net Profit then you must do this:
Net Profit - Taxes = "Disposable Income"
Disposable Income is the "real money" you have left to spend after all other deductions and taxes have been met.
Good Business NEVER spend more than 65-70% of their Disposable Income...you always save 20% for a rainy day or to upgrade your equipment, make new hires, etc....and this is "exactly" what we should be doing...can you say new training facilities every 3 years? which will equal a better quality football team
Good business and good football go hand in hand...you won't have success with one unless you have the other...look at the Steelers and the Seahawks, Even the Patriots follow this same Model and the Colts as well. They seem pretty successful to me.
Once we get a CEO in here, he will reorganize the Front Office and make it better and this franchise will be much better off for it. Our Front Office right now look like complete Dolts with the way Winslow, and the Email tirade and everything else that has gone on is inexcusable...they look like a bunch of unprofessional overpaid dolts. smart folks don't make those mistakes.
As For Carmen Policy, he only had that 5 or 6 years..thats all he wanted..he Promised Lerner to help him get the Browns in return for 10% share that he later sold back to Lerner and left with his money..that was the Deal.
Policy got us our only playoff berth since we have returned...not to mentioned we should have beat the Stoolers that year if not for Northcutt
The CEO would have told Lerner not give RAc and Savage an extension for a few reasons:
1. What did RAC and Savage do to deserve an Extension?
We didn't make the playoffs
We had 2 losing seasons under them prior
The CEO would have advised Lerner to "wait" on the Extensions...they still under contract for 2 more years, if they can repeat the results for a 2nd straight year then we will sit down and talk extensions
that is the smart way to handle it! give RAc and Savage an extension for "Mediocre" non-playoff football after 2 losing season is just not good business anyway you look at it...if they can do it "consistently" then you talk extension...Randy got "duped" on giving them an Extension that a good CEO would have prevented from happeninfg in the 1st place
now if they would have finihsed with a simliair record and playoffs for 2 years in a row then you talk extension
All Savage and RAC did last year was "semi-compentently" do their jobs..they did nothing worthy of an extension...
RAc and Savage got us no playoffs and no Super Bowl..they didn't deserve an extension
Heck Butch Davis was an "awesome" Coach...but Butch Davis the GM was Awful...if we would have hired a GM for Davis and allowed Davis just to "Coach" we wouldn't be in this mess
But Butch DAvis has done more this team then RAc or Savage has...Butch Davis got us to the playoffs with a double digit lead over the Steelers and a chance to win if not for DropCutt...that is more then RAC and Savage has ever done in their 4 years...
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Thanks....he didn't like the example I gave.
Either way, he has his proof you don't need to have a "football" guy running the show.
You just need a person who listens to his hired help and has a little common sense.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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That non-football guy you brought up has had 9 years in various duties including assistant to the GM. That starts to make him a football guy. I don't think a guy has to have played to be considered a football guy.
But take a guy like John Collins for instance. Never had any experience on the football side of an organization but wanted to call the football shots. I think that's the sort of "suit" that gets mentioned here.
How the hell can a guy pick players or run a scouting dept. with the final say on draft day with no football experience? I know you think football knowledge is over-rated, you've said as much several times on the board. But to me, that is to say that in any given field knowledge is over-rated. That just doen't seem to jive with common sense.
#gmstrong
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Right....here is what it said: Quote:
He was hired by the Jets on Feb. 2, 1997 and served in numerous administrative positions with the team, including senior vice president of football operations and assistant general manager.
By the wording, it means he held more than the two positions listed.
One would assume he held those positions at least a year....and he has been GM for 3 years now.
So now we are going to bicker about what is a "football guy" and not???...LOL...don't take it up with me...he is a suit...end of story.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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"No he couldn't have. I'm sorry that you fail to see the ramifications involved."
Can you actually state the rule and show me the errors of my ways?
"If you and others wish to live in fantasy land with Mr Rourke waiting on the plane to land, have at it"
I got news for you Shep...I have no desire to have Cowher as the HC to make it my "Fantasy"  The talk that I'm doing at this point is the realization that it is more than PROBABLE that he will be our next HC. And I've always gotten on board with every NEW HC we have gotten. It has nothing to do with "CHOICE" on Whose our Next HC threads that have been on the board I have admonished those who suggested Cowher would be or should be. But now it is different in my eyes cause I do believe in Where there is Smoke There is Fire.
And yes, I will abide by the board rules and not make a thread stating so as possible fact without concrete written "PROOF". But I'll be damned if I will hold back my opinion of the fact that I do think it has happened. And not cause I am a Dreamer and Wishing he would be our HC...I do so just for the simple reason some things sort of add up in that direction.
Now why oh why can we not approach somebody and as them IF the position is open would there be a chance that he could be a candidate...Not hiring him. Not negotiating with him just confirming if his HAT can be thrown in the ring? What is the letter of the law that you insist we cannot do that? Or is it possible you can simply give the link or lead me in the right direction to educate myself.
I have no problems stating what is right and wrong. But my sleuthing regarding Cowher is not out of HOPE or CHOICE...just an observation.
Knight of Brown - Where do I start...so nicely written and yet so gosh awfully misguided and obscure from reality.
Lets start with the Draft. Savage has don nothing Great in the draft????
Joe Thomas a "No Brainer"??? Go ask all the AP fans out there, they still are PO'd and come down on JoeT at every chance they can. It took a lot of GALL for Savage to take an OLman at overall #3 - notice how many potential OTs went this year cause they try to follow what Savage did.
We since expansion had a big problem with the draft. The foundation of the team and its in the first 2 rounds that you achieve most of your success. We have had in the past none to a little success from the first two rounds and was cited as the main reason we brought Savage here.
Savage has gotten in a fairly weak draft.
BE and Pool. BE is having an off year but he was the first Brown drafted player to be chosen to the PRO-Bowl and not as an Alternate...straight up.
Pool one of the few IMPACT defensive players that we have. He's very gifted and getting better. Once in a completed Defense his impact can be realized in a more frequent fashion. There are few teams that he wouldn't be on the field...Actually you tell me what team he couldn't be one of the 2 starting safeties???? I can't think of any.
Wimbley and DQ....Wimbley has been a steadily improved player that has not achieved expectations. Not a bust but can be a considered a disappointment. Is it Wimbley or coaching. I think his Run D has improved greatly but its the Pass rush that seems to have retarded. I don't like Haluchuck as our coach. He's been in a 4-3 D his entire career and I think all his experience doesn't give him the right stuff to coach up a 3-4 OLB in the pass rush game. And I distinctly remember during the draft that it was noted that Savage asked RAC...you want a Pass Rusher (Wimbley)? or a Run Stuffer (Ngata)? RAC stated Pass Rusher.
DQ is excellent for a 2nd round draft pick. He's a keeper and again would find him starting on just about every team in the NFL. Once the D is complete his full worth will be realized.
Joe Thomas - Eric Wright....Now this is a Great draft. Both very young and both with bright futures for 2 very rare positions. I can't be more happier with these picks.
BQ, Corey William and Shaun Rogers....This was our 08 draft. BQ first round Corey 2n round and Rogers we used a 3rd round and Bodden so to me that mean we moved up into the 2nd round Just another great Draft. One is our future Franchise QB the other two are 2/3rds of our starting DL...both young and signed for 5years. Both studs.
you build a foundation from the draft. And in this span of 4 years I don't see many teams making as good a splash in their foundation as Savage did with the Browns and his first two rounds.
But his draft success didn't stop there. We got Harrison, Vickers, McD who are contributing and starting (not Harrison) there also is Hall Bell and Rucker still to be determined on what impact they will bring.
But we have received and excellent foundation and if there is a new coach...they will have a high rate of success because of the foundation Savage has laid out in talent.
Not to mention the fact that Savage understands that the Game is fought and won in the trenches. He did a lot in building both sides of the ball. Again something no builder of our team did before!
Is he perfect? No
And I still fail to see how the EMAIL episode is embarassing and should get him in trouble.
I consider EMAIL as something private...ergo the word "MAIL" and the person on the other end was remorseful about the entire situation cause he knows he was at fault. The NFL has gone pffft to entire situation in an ERA that they scrutinize anything that can be considered IMAGE provoking and embarrassing.
That episode has come n gone so fast...only one who wants to use it to their own benefit of opinionated purpose will bring that one up in the future. Done, Gone and Over.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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But take a guy like John Collins for instance. Never had any experience on the football side of an organization but wanted to call the football shots.
I don't know it happened like that...seems the problem was he wanted savage to fulfill the role of GM and be around more to make more of the day to day decisions...I don't think he was trying to become the guy making the picks...but that's old stuff I am not going to rehash any further....and even if he was, the most it means is he was the wrong guy...and that is even hard to determine since he wasn't here for long. I can't say he would have made great selections if he was picking players. The converse is nobody can say he wouldn't have made sound selections.
I have a strong feeling that had Collins made the same exact picks Savage has, people would be talking about how much his picks have sucked.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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But my sleuthing regarding Cowher is not out of HOPE or CHOICE...just an observation.
Sleuthing. *LOL*
The same stuff was written in the newspapers and was all over the web.
Thanks for the giggles, much appreciated.
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Well some sleuth...which is a term I use on when I take a little read here n there and put it together with a statement that in context means nothing but in the big picture adds something to it. And I spelled it out. But always happy to oblige to make you giggle.
Now what term do you use for Cranky Old Fart... 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Common sense dictates that ANY and EVERY good businessman that is considering a coaching change or GM change has put out feelers, within the context of the rules, to see who mght or might not be made available. Fantasy and being naive are two seperate issues.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Common sense dictates that ANY and EVERY good businessman that is considering a coaching change or GM change has put out feelers, within the context of the rules, to see who mght or might not be made available.
Fantasy and being naive are two seperate issues.
pitt...some must believe Randy Lerner is a potted plant or something..lol.
Randy has spent enough time around the NFL to know how to do something like "contacting" a potential coaching candidate, while not "contacting" the potential coaching candidate, according to NFL rules.
Just to show how easy it "might be"...who said it had to be Randy Lerner making contact...maybe it's just the friend of a friend who has a conversation over dinner at some restaurant and as long as everyone keeps their mouths shut, no harm and no foul.
BTW, I did read a story out of SF concerning rumors...but of coarse, no contact has been made,  ...so this can't be true.
I'm not saying I believe the rumors...but there are ways to contact people who your not supposed to contact.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Now what term do you use for Cranky Old Fart
GMdawg
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Lerner can have Cowher sleep over at his house if he wants...no tampering involved.
He has to interview other people when the time comes to make a offer.
He can contact any coach in the league if he does so in the proper manner by contacting the team first and letting them know his intent....just some preliminary talks with the agent.
This isn't stuff that has to be carried out by James Bond.
There isn't some secret window in which teams are allowed to send out feelers for potential coaching changes.
They just can't tamper, and when the time comes they have to interview Mo Carthon if the decision is all but made except for the Rooney Rule.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Lerner can have Cowher sleep over at his house if he wants...no tampering involved.
Yeah, that's why Lerner proclaimed to the media that Cowher has not been contacted, right? Because even though it's "okay" for him to do so he has to tell the media it didn't happen.....right?
And he bought a house in Strongsville, right???
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Nothing that transpires means that the two are attatched Peen..Lerner wants to evaluate both..but what I have heard is that the head guys are not enamoured with Rac, and Lerner isn't 100% pleased with Phil.
So even if both are replaced which I strongly doubt..it never meant they are a package deal..it doesn't work that way.
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I don't think that Peen means they are a package deal. I believe he means their fates are more intertwined than a lot of people on here think. The only way they'd be a package deal is if Phil said something stupid like, "If RAC goes, I go."
I'm also not clear on who you mean when you say the head guys aren't enamored of RAC. You mean players?
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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I think Savage probably stays, but to get a front line coach we are going to have to reduce Savage's role. No way a guy like Cower or Marty (just throwing out 2 popular names) come here and Phil tells him who the final players on his roster are. In my opinion that's a good thing, because the coaching staff should decide who plays and who get's cut.......not the GM.
. You know my feelings about Phil bro.........I want him here, but he hasn't been the God that some on here like to think he is. I think that perception of him is understandable if we are comparing him to past regimes. I agree if we are comparing him to Botch or Policy and Co. he does seem to be divine. The problem is when you compare him to other GMs in the NFL he's been fairly average and the halo starts to lose it's glow...lol.
Like I said, I want Phil to come back next year, but I also would like to see his role to be tweaked a little as well.
Last edited by BigWillieStyle; 11/29/08 07:19 PM.
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I don't think that Peen means they are a package deal. I believe he means their fates are more intertwined than a lot of people on here think. The only way they'd be a package deal is if Phil said something stupid like, "If RAC goes, I go."
I'm also not clear on who you mean when you say the head guys aren't enamored of RAC. You mean players?
You get it...thanks.
Shep...WTF???
I don't know if they have talked or not...all I am saying is Lerner can if he wants....it isn't violating anything unless he outright hires the guy without adhereing to some NFL mandated process.
He can meet, buy dinner, talk numbers, and even enter into a handshake deal if he wants.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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He can meet, buy dinner, talk numbers, and even enter into a handshake deal if he wants.
And then the Browns get fined, potentially lose draft picks, and perhaps a precedent is established this go-round where the contract is deemed invalid since it violated the league rule for hiring coaches.
The Lions violated the Rooney Rule when they hired Mariucci. They claimed that they attempted to hire minority candidates but were unable to do so because all of the candidates thought that Mariucci already had the job sewn up and it would be fruitless for them to interview for the position. The Lions (or Matt Millen, depending on which version you believe) got fined a quarter million dollars, and since then the league has added the requirement that an independent law firm do follow-up interviews to determine the validity of the minority interviews to see if they were just token interviews to comply with the rule.
The Lions' non-compliance with the rule occurred under Tagliabue, and under Goodell I have no doubt the penalties would be much, much more severe for a blatant violation of a league rule that is well known by each front office.
No need to WTF me because you apparently don't know the ramifications......that being at the very least a fine. Maybe you do know the ramifications, I don't know....this stuff isn't new nor is it a secret.
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Did the Lions have a opening for head coach at the time??
Right now, we don't have a opening for head coach, which IMO would put things in a much different light.
Due to the sensitive nature of already having a coach in place, it is in everybody's best interest to keep the initial process of forming a viable hotlist by limiting it to candidates who at present aren't involved in the game of football just to see if they would be interested in talking when the time was appropriate. Once those other candidates become available, we expand the search, then start the interview process.
Again, I am not saying we have talked with Cowher or his agents, but I don't think such contact would be in violation of anything.
There is no time frame in which a owner has to make a decision on the current coach, nor is there a window in which he has to put his list of potential candidates together.
Hiring for such a position is a search, that can take time. It isn't like putting a ad in the paper and limiting it to the people who put in a application..
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Did the Lions have a opening for head coach at the time??
Yes they did.
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Right now, we don't have a opening for head coach, which IMO would put things in a much different light.
It sure does......in ways that you and others aren't grasping.
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Again, I am not saying we have talked with Cowher or his agents, but I don't think such contact would be in violation of anything.
Yesterday you said we could have a handshake deal with him, and that would be okay..... 
We shall wait and see what transpires........da plane boss, da plane!!!!
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Here ya go....... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mariucci had been Detroit's leading candidate since the Lions fired Mornhinweg last week. He met with team officials last Wednesday night and Thursday and is the only coach to have an in-person interview with the Lions.
Detroit chief executive Matt Millen has never publicly named any other candidate for the job, but said the Lions would do their best to comply with the NFL's policy of interviewing at least one minority candidate.
Mariucci's agent Gary O'Hagan, who also represents former Minnesota coach Dennis Green, refused comment on numerous reports that Green refused to interview with the Lions because they appeared to have their sights set only on Mariucci.
A source within the league, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said five minority candidates turned down interview requests from the Lions because it appeared inevitable that Mariucci would be hired.
Attorney Cyrus Mehri, who along with attorney Johnnie Cochran led a campaign for more minority hiring in the NFL, was disappointed with Detroit's hiring process.
"We believe this is a breach of an agreement (Lions owner) William Clay Ford made with 31 other owners," Mehri said. "By essentially crowning Mariucci as the next head coach before doing a single interview, the Lions discouraged African-American coaches from putting their hat in the ring in Detroit. Millen in public and private statements could not look African-American candidates in the eye and tell them they had a fair shot. I don't blame the coaches who didn't want to be a part of a sham interview.
"We're competing for the soul of the NFL, which has been based on a good old boys network — not fair competition for jobs. The ball is in the league's court now. If they condone this, they have ripped the heart out of 'The Rooney Plan,' because what Matt Millen has done harkens back to the good old boys days."
The NFL's new policy, announced in late December, said owners agreed they would "seriously" interview at least one minority candidate for each coaching vacancy. The policy was developed by a committee headed by Pittsburgh owner Dan Rooney, following a report on minority hiring issued by a group headed by Mehri.
"The Lions' selection process fell short of what our committee recommends for all clubs as agreed in December," Rooney said in a statement Tuesday. "I will discuss this with the Committee and the Lions to see what occurred and where to proceed in the future." web page
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Shep,, I don't think it matters in the case of Cowher for instance.. he's not under any contract with any team..
Any team can approach him to discuss any subject they want without fear of penalty at all..
What a team like the Browns CAN'T do is hire him at this moment.. They need to follow the Rooney rule and interview a minority candidate or two before a selection is announced.
Speaking from a professionalism standpoint, I don't think that Randy Lerner is cut from the same ill advised cloth as say an Al Davis is today.
I'm pretty sure that Randy would do the manly thing and sit down with RAC and tell him the score before annoucing anything in the public. That's just the professional way to handle it IMO.
Another thing that Lerner can't do is have discussions with any assistent coaches that are currently under contract with another NFL team... At least not without permission.
I believe I'm correct about all this.
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Thanks for the read.
None the less....the Browns can talk to people if they wish.
It's how they handle it when any hiring that takes place that will determine if they follow the rule.
I agree...the handshake comment isn't in the spirit of the rule....but they could.
In the end, I trust we will hire the best candidate who is interested in the job.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Shep is taking this to the Nth degree.
Of course an owner can put out feelers under the radar to gauge interest.
Shep probably thinks that all those Free Agents that sign at 12:01am got their first call at 12:00:01. Would it be against the rules to negotiate with players before the Free Agency period. Of course. Does it happen? Of course.
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Shep...I really wish to be educated is there a letter of the law that can be thrown out here that spells out the Do's and Don'ts.
I mean if we did approach Cowher we are most definitely going out of our way to give the appearance that it didn't happen.
Is this because of the LETTER OF THE LAW or is it so that Minority Candidates will not view it as a "TOKEN" interview if we have positive overtures with Cowher...mucking up the process?
Also now we are in an Era that Minority Coaches as well as Asst. Coaches are numerous to almost make this Rule obsolete. Its the College ranks that I see to be the biggest "OLD BOY" club out there...but the NFL doesn't rely on College coaches as their training ground.
Not in RAC's case but lets say a lame duck HC's year is up. And the club stated they will sit down with the HC and assess his job and decide to hire him or let him walk. They do so...they review film of the games and interview the HC to explain the season. Then decide to let him walk. Does that constitute a Minority Interview? As mentioned it doesn't apply to RAC but lets say what if we didn't give him an extention and his contract is up after this season. We sit down with him and decide we just don't like the job he has done and decide not to pick him up again. Would that interview process be considered as THE INTERVIEW?
Now that there are numerous Minority coaches the situations are different. With more HC's out there - More HC firings with the old HC being of the Minority status.
Personally I feel that they should keep certain training programs to get more players...regardless if they are minority or not (but obviously if there are more minority players out there they would be well represented) into the system as Asst. coaches. McG for example should be enticed to join the program.
That is the largest POOL of new HC still...Inside the NFL system. And let the HC hirings take care of themselves. I would be almost insulted with the HAVE TO action. As long as Minorities are given chances to prove themselves as ASST. Coaches in the NFL I think the HC stuff will happen.
JMHO - Still what this all comes down to is Do you think we made some overtures to Cowher or not. I fail to see your "FANTASY ISLAND" references to those who think it did happen. I don't even subscribe to it as a GOOD THING yet but I believe it happened. Oh and the interview would be Tucker not Mo.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Mariucci had been Detroit's leading candidate since the Lions fired Mornhinweg last week. He met with team officials last Wednesday night and Thursday and is the only coach to have an in-person interview with the Lions.
Firstly, I do not believe ANYBODY indicated ANYTHING about an "interview" or "meeting with team officials".
So it's NOTHING like this at all! No comparison what so ever.
What was mentioned was a feeler phone call.
ie... IF we have a head coach openning, would you consider that an option next year? Would you entertain the option of becoming an NFL head coach next year? Is there a number you would have in mind to make that happen?
That is not an interview. That is not making someone an offer.
Interviews would start AFTER RAC is gone.
See, you're trying to portray a "feeler contact" with an interview. They are not the same. Not even in the same ball park.
I have seen NOTHING to indicate that Randy could not contact Cowher, Marty, Fassel, Billick and anybody else that is NOT under contract in the NFL just to see if there might be an interest on their part when the position comes open.
Then and ONLY then, ( after the season ) would ANY interview process begin. You're trying to prepare apples to oranges IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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You're trying to prepare apples to oranges IMO
Yummmm
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I think Savage probably stays, but to get a front line coach we are going to have to reduce Savage's role. No way a guy like Cower or Marty (just throwing out 2 popular names) come here and Phil tells him who the final players on his roster are. In my opinion that's a good thing, because the coaching staff should decide who plays and who get's cut.......not the GM.
Yes I saw Marty's name out there with Chower,,errr Chin..errr whatever ya want to call him.
Now supposedly GM's should bring in the talent but the coaching staff should say this is who I'm keeping and who I'm not..get me so -in so ..or this guy goes..
Thats why I said I want a experienced coach who knows his X and O's and knows what he wants the units to do..
The problem is when you compare him to other GMs in the NFL he's been fairly average and the halo starts to lose it's glow...lol.
I think what has also happened and it's just a hunch..while he's conversed with Rac on things, I think he's brought in guys that Rac may have little knowledge of..
I heard he had scouted Wimbley well before the discussion about a run-stuffer or pass rusher was brought up..so when Rac said he wanted a pass-rusher it played into Phil's process...but there were better pass rushers out there..which could have been brought in later in the draft.
You look at the defense and say we need to build the trenches..BECAUSE from ' 99 we haven't been able to stop the run..do that first..then move out.
Same thing with the LB's.. we needed hammers and we don't have them..
I do understand most of Phil's moves but some he could have done a lot better..
As a coach I need to know what you're bringing to me to coach..because if he doesn't have a brain(Leon Williams, etc) then what do I need him for??
If I don't have enough linemen on either side of the ball why draft me a corner/WR high in the draft?(Perkins/Wilson )
If my defense needs LB's I have to get the best fits and what type do i want?
Big guys who are run stuffers vs athletic small guys who may get pushed around?
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/01/08 10:34 AM.
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Dude said the same thing when he fired Butch Davis
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j/c this seemed to be the best thread to post this article. we're mentioned a few times and it's all about coaches on the hot seat and the rankings for potential head coach candidates from don banks. Quote:
For starters, we take note of the premise that whatever works is always instantly emulated in the NFL. And then we remind you that all four of this season's four rookie head coaches have teams in legitimate playoff contention, with winning records and a combined mark of 30-18 entering Week 14. Will it be any wonder then if the NFL owners who go looking for a coach this offseason are trying to identify the next John Harbaugh, Tony Sparano, Jim Zorn or Mike Smith, men who landed jobs last year with little (Smith) or no (the other three) NFL experience at the coordinator level?
Adding to the perception that coordinating has become a non-essential part of a head coach's background is the success of Mike Tomlin and Eric Mangini -- both of whom were one-year coordinators before landing head coaching jobs -- and the recent struggles of respected coordinators such as Cam Cameron, Scott Linehan, Romeo Crennel, Brad Childress and Mike Nolan.
But with my third installment of this year's NFL coaching hot seat rankings (see the first two here and here) heating up to include an even dozen names as December dawns, there's enough potential openings in the headset crowd to defy any one particular hiring trend. Our goal in this case is to give you not only an up-to-the-minute reading of which current NFL head coaches are most vulnerable to pending unemployment, but to offer an early preview of the leading potential candidates to interview for and win those jobs.
First, a look at the likely head coaching prospects, roughly grouped from the most popular to the long-shots on the list. Following that will be a fresh temperature reading of the league's coaching hot seats....
The A List
• Bill Cowher -- If, as expected, he chooses to peel off his TV persona and end his two-year hiatus from the sideline, the former Steelers coach will essentially have his pick of the openings. Cleveland would roll out the red carpet for him, and Detroit could be an intriguing possibility as well.
• Steve Spagnuolo -- The Giants defensive coordinator will be in high demand for a second consecutive offseason, especially if New York rides the wave all the way to another Super Bowl appearance. St. Louis is one team known to be in the market for a defensive-oriented head coach.
• Jim Schwartz -- After strong interviews last offseason in Washington, Miami and Atlanta, Schwartz is nearly certain of parlaying the success of Tennessee's defense into a No. 1 job this time around. He's smart, articulate, extremely well prepared, and his coaching pedigree includes having worked for both Bill Belichick and Jeff Fisher.
• Josh McDaniels -- The Patriots 32-year-old offensive coordinator has only enhanced his résumé this season, proving he can craft successful game plans with or without league MVP Tom Brady at quarterback. It might take just the right situation for McDaniels to leave Foxboro, but I could see the Chargers, led by Patriots-envying general manager A.J. Smith, being an enticing option.
• Jason Garrett -- No surprise here, but if the curtain falls on the Wade Phillips era in Dallas, Cowboys owner Jerry Jones will toss the keys to Garrett, who he kept away from both Baltimore and Atlanta last offseason with just such a plan of succession in mind.
The Next Best Things
• Pete Carroll -- Nobody's predicting a return to the NFL, but if the USC coach was of a mind to get involved anywhere -- San Francisco, we're looking in your direction -- he'd get his phone call promptly returned. But he's likely not going anywhere. (NOTE: Two other high-profile college coaches who roughly fall into the same category are Florida's Urban Meyer and Oklahoma's Bob Stoops. There, we've done our due diligence and mentioned them).
• Marty Schottenheimer -- The word is he badly wants back in, and his first choice is Cleveland, where his long head-coaching career began in 1984. He might be the Browns' fallback plan if there's no Cowher in their future.
• Rex Ryan -- The Ravens veteran defensive coordinator nearly landed the Baltimore job last year, and then he subjugated his ego and stayed on staff to work, and work well, with Harbaugh. The Ravens' resurgence this season only makes his resume that much stronger.
• Mike Mularkey -- As the Falcons' first-year offensive coordinator, Mularkey has quietly done one of the best coaching jobs in the NFL this season, putting rookie quarterback Matt Ryan into the position to win right away. He has also gotten the best from Atlanta's Michael Turner-led running game and an offensive line that few thought would achieve so much. His previous NFL head coaching experience in Buffalo won't hurt him a bit.
• Kirk Ferentz -- Here's a scenario I'm hearing from a league source: If Browns general manager Phil Savage manages to keep his job, which is far from a certainty, he'll go hard after Ferentz as Crennel's replacement. After 10 years as Iowa's head coach, Ferentz might finally consider the time is right for a return to the NFL. The Hawkeyes rebounded this year to 8-4 and knocked off undefeated Penn State in November.
Some Names to Know
• Jim Harbaugh -- Though his name surfaced in regards to Oakland's interest in him a few weeks back, the Stanford head coach doesn't have to settle for that losing proposition. Harbaugh, the ex-NFL quarterback, has name recognition, great motivational skills and he's known as a high-energy, positive individual. And the head coaching success of his brother, John, in Baltimore makes him even more attractive.
While the NFL could come calling, another possibility to keep an eye on is Notre Dame. Harbaugh is extremely popular in Indiana following his successful career with the Colts, and he's known as a great recruiter. Given Harbaugh's public rebuke of his alma mater, Michigan, last year, wouldn't that spice up the Irish-Wolverine rivalry?
• Mike Leach -- The Texas Tech head coach wouldn't be a fit for everyone. He's an offensive innovator in the Mike Martz mold, but he's a bit of a loose cannon -- also a Martz-ian trait -- and that would scare off some teams. But it only takes one NFL owner who's intrigued enough to interview him, and then who knows? What if Leach wound up going from the Red Raiders to the Raiders?
• Raheem Morris -- Haven't heard of the Bucs defensive backs coach? You will. For one thing, he's thought to be a slam dunk to become Tampa Bay's defensive coordinator should Monte Kiffin join his son's staff at the University of Tennessee. But Morris is also thought of as the next Mike Tomlin, whom he worked under in Tampa Bay as recently as 2005. He's got a winning and magnetic personality, and though he's only 32 -- younger than Bucs veterans Derrick Brooks and Ronde Barber -- his players rave about his fiery coaching style and his ability to motivate.
• DeWayne Walker -- Walker has spent the past three seasons as UCLA's defensive coordinator, but he's also got a wealth of NFL experience to draw from, having served as an assistant under a virtual who's who of coaches: Pete Carroll (at New England and USC), Bill Belichick (New England), Joe Gibbs (Washington), and Jim Fassel (Giants). His collegiate background includes coaching stints under Steve Mariucci (Cal) and LaVell Edwards (BYU), and he's thought of as one of the brighter young coaching minds in the game.
• Brian Kelly -- Though the second-year University of Cincinnati head coach isn't thought to be quite ready for the NFL just yet, don't forget his name. You can bet the struggling Bengals won't, given that he's right under their nose. Kelly's a proven winner and after leading the lowly Bearcats to a Big East title, a 10-2 record, and a BCS Bowl (probably the Orange) this season. His name has surfaced in connection with head coaching jobs at Notre Dame, Washington and Tennessee. His lack of NFL experience hurts for now.
• Karl Dorrell -- The Dolphins receivers coach has five years of head coaching experience at UCLA (2003-07), but no NFL coordinating stops on his résumé. But as a well-thought of position coach within the league, he'd be the kind of insightful pick that some team owners have made in recent years. He served on Mike Shanahan's staff in Denver from 2000-2002, and was hired by Bill Parcells in Miami this year. That will get him noticed by those owners who do their homework.
• Todd Haley -- Thanks to Arizona's success, the Cardinals offensive coordinator has a little buzz surrounding his name these days. Haley gets some credit for the effectiveness of the Cardinals' Kurt Warner-led passing game, and he too benefits from representing a branch of the Parcells coaching tree, having served on The Tuna's Cowboys staff.
• Jim Fassel -- You can expect Fassel to take the Raiders job if Al Davis doesn't retain Tom Cable and can't find anyone else to say yes. Fassel will try to get involved in St. Louis as well, but as we noted earlier, the Rams are said to be inclined to go with a defensive-minded coach.
• Mike Tice -- Jacksonville's assistant head coach hasn't been helped by the Jaguars poor season, but he has one key supporter within the league: Parcells, who talks him up to anyone who asks. That could gain the ex-Vikings head coach an interview or two.
• Mike Holmgren -- I happen to believe that the Seattle head coach will follow through on his plan to take at least a one-year sabbatical from the NFL, but speculation surrounding his possible interest in the 49ers head coaching job was inevitable, given his history with the team and the area.
The Hot Seat Rankings
1. Rod Marinelli, Detroit -- No way, no how the Lions sell tickets for 2009 with Marinelli still around. Time to put Matt Millen's final coaching hire out of his misery. A historic 0-16 season wouldn't even require an explanation, just a firing and a press conference.
• Pink slip potential: 99 percent.
2. Jim Haslett, St. Louis -- After those hopeful first two wins over Washington and Dallas after he took over for Scott Linehan, Haslett's Rams have laid down and died like dogs, dropping six straight. Most of them in the ugly blowout fashion. Look for the Rams to try and land a high-profile defensive coordinator like Spagnuolo, Schwartz or Rex Ryan.
• Pink slip potential: 95 percent.
3. Romeo Crennel, Cleveland -- League sources I talk to say it's 50-50 that Browns owner Randy Lerner blows up the whole thing and starts over in Cleveland with a new general manager and a new head coach. But those odds are on both Savage and Crennel to be fired together. When you ask around regarding just Crennel, it approaches a foregone conclusion that he's gone.
• Pink slip potential: 90 percent.
4. Wade Phillips, Dallas -- To be sure, the Cowboys' season-saving three-game winning streak has lightened the pressure on Phillips -- for now. But it's still all about playoff success, or bust, in Dallas this season. Since the Cowboys are going to have to go the wild-card route -- if they go at all to the playoffs -- that makes it a very difficult road to ride.
• Pink slip potential: 75 percent.
5. Herm Edwards, Kansas City -- That win at Oakland on Sunday was only Kansas City's second in its past 21 games, and there's not many coaches who could survive a 2-19 run in the NFL. But Edwards could be one of them, if -- and it's a big if -- Chiefs general manager Carl Peterson returns. I just don't know how owner Clark Hunt sells another season of Peterson and Edwards to the frustrated fans of Kansas City.
• Pink slip potential: 55 percent.
6. Mike Singletary, San Francisco -- If the 49ers could split their last four games, after winning Sunday at Buffalo, that late-season momentum might be enough to turn the tide in favor of Singletary getting the interim tag removed from his title. It's a fluid situation, but after a shaky start, Singletary has a shot to survive.
• Pink slip potential: 55 percent.
7. Norv Turner, San Diego -- I really don't believe that Chargers general manager Smith wants to fire Turner, who led San Diego to those two long-awaited playoff victories last January. But he might find himself feeling forced to make a move if the wheels continue to come off for the Chargers in the season's final month. As we said above, New England offensive coordinator McDaniels might be an intriguing option.
• Pink slip potential: 50 percent.
8. Tom Cable, Oakland -- The Raiders could easily fire Cable, of course, but the question in Oakland is who does Davis get to take the job at that point? Cable could stick around, because Davis is said to see a bit of young John Madden in him, and he has had the Raiders playing hard in recent weeks. For Davis, that win at Denver alone is worth considering Cable for the full-time gig.
• Pink slip potential: 50 percent.
9. Gary Kubiak, Houston -- Texans owner Bob McNair has always struck me as a reasonable and largely patient man, and that's probably going to work in Kubiak's favor regarding a fourth season in Houston. Also, don't underestimate the importance of the Texans' big home win over Jacksonville in their first-ever Monday Night Football game. An egg-laying in that one could have really doomed Kubiak.
• Pink slip potential: 35 percent.
10. Marvin Lewis, Cincinnati -- If Lewis was coaching anywhere else, his team's 1-10-1 record this season would be a death sentence. But he's working for an owner in Mike Brown who holds his nose at the thought of paying off a coach to disappear. Brown, who still owes Lewis at least $8 million over the next two years, came out this week and praised Lewis for doing "an incredibly good job'' this season.
• Pink slip potential: 30 percent.
11. Brad Childress, Minnesota -- The Vikings and Childress don't have any reason to get comfortable just yet, but they are 7-5 and in sole possession of first place in the NFC North. A 9-7 record and a division title is probably what it's going to take to make Childress entirely safe. The Vikings have to win at Detroit this week, then get one more W out of the tough final three weeks: At Arizona, then home against Atlanta and the Giants. Fortunately for Minnesota, the Cardinals and Giants will probably have already clinched.
• Pink slip potential: 30 percent.
12. Andy Reid, Philadelphia -- It's not out of the question that a change is in the offing in Philly, but my gut tells me that that Eagles management will give Reid the benefit of the doubt in this, his third non-playoff season in four years. But with three games remaining in the rugged NFC East, the story could still take a downward spiral for the Eagles in December.
• Pink slip potential: 25 percent.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/don_banks/12/02/coaches/index.html?eref=T1
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,620
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,620 |
I really don't want to bring in Ferentz and train another guy to be an NFL coach. And at the risk of being sacreligious, I have no interest in bringing Marty back. That ship has sailed.
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