DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns stuck on same track with decision to train (article)

ooo I've made enough friends the last 3 months...I'm sticking out of this one...lol

Well guess Grossi did his job - got everyone at each other throats - damn anarchist!



But thought the Wisenhunt TE Coach to OC was a very good piece of info. Of course Chud has to make his own legacy and don't got an OL like Wisenhunt did w/Steelers.
JMHO

They might be a step up. This last season was the only offensive thing about last season. we need to realize that there is no excuse for excuses in Berea. Hardly objective journalism on the original. Artificial controversy if ya ask me. Out of line.
Use the Force, Phil! And may the Elf be with you! Go Browns!

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If the OC is talented, he already has a job. If the OC doesn't have a job... he was probably medicore. Why hirer known mediocrity?

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Agree 100% but there are many fans that are to intent on bashing the browns organization to llisten to logic.

I'll rather have an un-proven coach with the potential to be good then a proven coach whos proven to not be to good at his job.

You named two Tyler. That's about the extent of it.

I understand how other offensive coaches can make the transition to OC from their perspective duties as I stated above.

I mentioned that it would make more sense for an OL coach,or a QB coach to make that transition and would be a far more natural progression because of their current duties and what is entailed from them.

However,a TE coach? The odds simply aren't good. But you did find "two". And considering there's thirty two teams,do those sound like good odds to you?

I can't garuntee he won't be successfull. I'm just trying to be logical and look at the odds of success. Which don't really look all that great now do they?

I understand but time will tell(again). I am tired of the same old same old. But like I said they probably know just a little more than you and me and the rest. Except *toad*

Last year everyone thought the hiring of Mangini in NY and Payton in NO was a bit of a stretch.

Both coaches went to the playoffs, and the owners have identified birght an promising talent.

The NFL is a fickle business. Sometimes you have to take a chance on a coach.

We wont know about Chud until the season begins. But you have to give him a respectable chance.

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People coach for $$$$$.
Get a clue. Quit making excuses for a FO that hires wannabe's. A TE coach for God's sake? ANYBODY trying to excuse that bone headed move is blind in one eye and can't see out of the other one.

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Yea, we should have hired a defensive coordinator to be our head coach who, at his most recent job, took a super bowl caliber team with the #3 ranked defense in the NFL in his first year and then in his second and third turned them into the #13 and #17 defense respectively....

and he could have hired a defensive coordinator whose highest position to date was linebackers coach....

and he could have hired an offensive coordinator with 4 years of NFL offensive coordinator experience running an offense that for 3 of those 4 years was ranked 22nd or worse and all of his other relevant experience was in college...

Sure, we could do that.... but then we'd be stuck where the Bears are... and who'd want that?

Get the players Pit... get the players... Stories like Mangini, Peyton, and the one I spoke of above, which is of course Lovie Smith and his staff, don't just happen. They happen because the players are in place...... You give Phil another offseason like last year, then fire RAC next year, and I'll all but guarantee you our next coach will be successful, no matter who it is...... Because he will have much better talent...

Good morning Pit Hey did you know old Norv Turner was a lowley WR coach with the Rams in 1990 when Jimmy Johnson plucked him away and and made him the Dallas Cowboys OC in 1991, and then it took the Cowboys all the way untill 1992 to win a super bowl. I wonder how many people were saying "NORV WHO" back in 1991

It's meant to scare you,, Glad it works

LOL, poor Pit. You do realize that Chud was the OC for one of the most explosive offenses in college football when he was with Miami, right? That has to be the most typical response to the hiring I could have predicted....and wouldn't think it would come from a "fan of 42 years".

nrtu, but seemed like the best place to respond...

I can certainly see the point regarding "better players". Lord knows we need more infusion of talent.

But I think an equal, if not greater problem, is the lack of HC experience. It trickles down to every assistant, the trainer, the office manager, and even trickles up to the GM and owner.

I've said it many times before...we need a HC who has done it before in the NFL. This expansion frachise has NEVER had that...ever...and I believe that has an impact on every staff person who works with the HC.

Who came before Payton? Haslett...who's term folded like a tent when Katrina whacked N.O. AND...he was saddled with Aaron Brooks. AND, I'll readily admit that they had some talent BEFORE getting Brees, Bush, and...Faine. But Haslett got that team to the brink of the playoffs with lesser players then time ran out for him. (BTW, I would hire this guy in a second.) Payton did a great job, but he had a HUUUGE jump start.

Who came before Mangini? Edwards...who left NY for...who knows? He had the Jets as a competitive team, then Pennington's arm went south and he skee-daddled.

Pennington, like Brees, makes a recovery that few expected...the Jets use TWO first round picks on OL...they are back in the playoffs. Mangini did a very good job, but he had a HUUUUGE jump start.

Who came before Lovie? Doing what he has done with Grossman at QB is remarkable. I think Jauron was there before Lovie...and I don't think Jauron had been a head coach before...maybe Buffalo..any help with that? They certainly had some talent when Lovie got there and made some wise picks. The team wasn't playoff-caliber, but they weren't gawd-awful either.

Nolan goes to San Fran following...Dennis Erickson. Their talent was as bad as ours was when our new coach came in. Nolan didn't look like much with his new QB his first year...but he made noticeable strides with that team in year two. He is getting them to be more competitive and started WAAAAY behind the three guys noted above. He may end up being the most effective coach of the three.

I'm sure there are many other examples out there.

I think history has shown that it is VERY difficult for a first-time HC to succeed if he is put in a situation that is a disaster. True worst-to-first examples rarely happen like people seem to want to remember them.

Taking a team from zero to Champion is very difficult...it only took the wonderful Jaw 15 years to do it.

Jimmy Johnson did it...thanks to the Herschel Walker betrayal...and the trio, And it didn't take very long...but certainly not worst-to-first.

I like looking at these variables because the dolts in the media miss this whole point. Not to knock guys like Payton or Mangin...it's not their fault they took over a team that was already decent...or quite good after an infusion of ADDITIONAL talent.

But...a first-time coach who is following an established, if not experienced, coach WITH a roster with some talent can definitely succeed...unless the coach is a turd.

Unfortunately, we had/have the exact opposite. If Romeo were on the Jets...or Saints...he may have been just as successful. But here, with the facts and circumstance I've outlined above, he would have to be quite unique to be able to turn this ship around.

I want Romeo to succeed...I just don't think he is that unique guy who can take over this mess and get it right. We need a guy who has done it before...even if the results weren't so great. This on-the-job learning simply isn't working.

No, they aren't the same, but there have been many that have made the jump successfully. Are you saying that because Davis failed that Chud will? The whole point is that this guy has put a system in place and has had success doing it. He has experience in calling a game and THAT experience is valuable. You are acting like he is some clown that never called a game before. That's not the case.

I don't have a problem with Chud.....he was probably our best option of limited options.

We weren't going to get somebody with experience unless he was bottom of the heap...

With the situation as it is today, only a new up-and-commer was going to take this job.

Now Chud gets his shot. I wish him well.

They didn't hire a TE coach,did they?
There haven't been all that many TE coaches VAULTED to the OC position. I'm sure there MUST be a pretty good reason for that.


So,no need for me to bother with attempting to hunt them down. It's a rarity and the reasoning is obvious. Hopefully,we'll be "lucky" enough that we'll beat the odds here.

And out of curiosity,what % would YOU give the odds of success to be? I know that you have a pretty good grasp of the game both at the pro and NCAA evel. You know not only the successes,but the failures when coaches transfer from the same job at the NCAA level verses the pro's.

So since you seem to be a detractor of what I'm saying,just how much of a "realistic percentage" do you give Chud at being successfull as an OC here?

20%
30%
40%
Higher?

Jimmy Johnson won a Super Bowl with the Cowboys. Proven commodity. Did he win a Super Bowl in Miami?

Parcells won a Super Bowl with the Giants. Did he win any Super Bowls with the Jets, Patriots, or Cowboys?

Jim Fassel was an successful / experienced HC, OC - he was fired at mid-season.

Having success in one place does not guarentee success at the next stop.

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Having success in one place does not guarentee success at the next stop.

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Gee, maybe that means there is something to it other than pure football knowledge and pedigree..... perhaps it has something to do with those other guys... the ones that wear a helmet.

Bill Parcells is perhaps the best example. He had a phenomenal team with the Giants, they won the super bowl... then the Pats, Jets, and Cowboys... In every one of those situations he made the team better but was never able to get them to where the Giants were.... why? Phil Simms, Lawrence Taylor........

Look at the coach's that New England has lost over the past few years. Quality PLAYERS are what determine success... or failure.

Imo...the hire of Chud was in part to bring out the best in Charlie...KW2...& ...Braylon...Play the game these guys play....And Cud... as Rac & phil see it must be the guy who can do it.

If the players are brought in that need to be, (OL, RB), then I would rate his chances of success quite higher than that, actually. I have followed Chud since he was at Miami. I would give him a better than even chance of making it....but it all boils down to acquiring the players to make it work. His schemes are sound. It will be a question of execution by the players, not whether or not Chud's offense or playcalling are any good.

Thats a good point.

Interestingly enough I think Chud wasnt brought in with high expectations.

If im not mistaken I read that his presentation is what gave him the job. I read that he came in with a report on every player showing strengths and weaknesses and how to use them and avoid showing the weaknesses and how to overall improve the offense.

I read that his presentation blew Phil and Romeo away and thats why they hired him


Now, Im'm not sure what the rest of everyone would think, but how do you NOT give a guy a chance after putting in that much and that impressive work just for an interview?

And apparently his thoughts made sense. I'm ok with his hiring regardless of where he comes from. I dont care if he was bagging groceries next to Kurt Warner 6 years ago. If he's done the work and shows a knowledge and an ability, why not?

and no matter if we type one post, or 15,000 posts. None of us will know the answer to Chud being a great O-cord, or a bad O-cord for a long while. *sigh* Somebody just clump me in with the "lets just wait and see crowd" because thats all we can do.

We'll know about game 8..after we get the offensive players set and the scheme..we'll see..

"Yeah I'm sure you could have"

I know that was pretty funny

j/c:

I hate to get in the way of all the optimists, but I try looking beyond the surface for the answers.

Will bringing in a new OC, OL coach, QB coach, WR coach, TE coach, and S & C coach solve the Brown's offensive problems?

I don't think so.

-------The offensive line is a mess. How do we fix it? By bringing in more free agents? Yeah, that's worked wonders in the past. Has Savage drafted any offensive linemen on the first day in his two years here? No. Where is the young talent that needs to step in to improve the OL? The line will be weak again next year............and that doesn't lend itself to offensive success.

------Frye is still an inexperienced QB. I am one of his supporters, but he has all kinds of question marks. Is he the guy to lead this team offensively?


----Where do we stand at RB? Droughns is getting old and is slow to the hole and takes a ton of shots. He doesn't make people miss. Who do we have behind him that become the guy?


-----Are K2 and Leon going to learn all the plays and run the correct routes? Will Leon stop being a cancer in the locker room? Will he learn how to catch? Fight for inside position? Fight for the ball?

Bottom line: This offense is still going to have problems. A lot of problems. I feel that changing coaches is window dressing. The real problems will remain. Of course, Junior and Savage did buy some more time and will again next year, when they fire--or force RAC's resignation. Meanwhile, the real problems do not get resolved.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Cleveland Brown's football.

Didn't Savage come in to change the Woe is me attitude in CTown.

I guess he can try to do it within the organization, but I think its so ingrained in the fan base, that it will never happen.

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Didn't Savage come in to change the Woe is me attitude in CTown.

I guess he can try to do it within the organization, but I think its so ingrained in the fan base, that it will never happen.

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Ahhh.........so the problems I listed are NOT real???

In fact, it's the fault of the fans that the Browns suck year in and and year out.