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From Wikipedia:
The permanent seat license was invented by a Columbus, Ohio architect, Rick Ohanian, in January 1987, rather than by Charlotte sports marketing agent, Max Muhleman, in 1993, as is commonly believed. The first appearance of a PSL can be seen in a Letter to The Editor from Ohanian to the Columbus Dispatch, published on March 2, 1987, entitled "Ticketbond is Answer to Financing Proposed Facility". However Muhleman is credited as the founder of the first PSL's at Charlotte's then Carolinas Stadium.
Those in disagreement with this claim cite that similar programs were in existence among many college fund raising activities prior to 1987. However, the difference here is the fact that these programs were tax-deductible donations to a scholarship fund, in which case the main "quid-pro-quo" was between the donation and the resultant deduction, not between the donation and the actual seating rights. The seating rights in all these cases were the "icing on the cake", not the cake itself, and it remains to be seen how many of these "College PSLs" would have sold, if any at all, had they not been tax-deductible.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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So an Ohio guy is the culprit! 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I figured it was Art Modell's doing. 
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As part of the deal with people who buy permanent seat licenses, season ticket holders are required to buy playoff tickets. Those tickets against the Arizona Cardinals weren't cheap.
That's the end of the story because fair is fair.
If you can't afford the insurance, don't buy a Porsche.
If you can't afford the taxes, don't buy a house.
And if you can't afford to buy playoff tickets, you shouldn't buy PSL's.
Rule #1 in the Universe: Life isn't fair. Deal with reality or move on.
Well you're right, life isn't fair, but for some maybe a couple years ago people could buy that Porsche, people could afford that house and etc.
Life happens sometimes and some people can't afford these things anymore.
They weren't dumb to buy things when they could afford it, maybe everyone should play it safe and buy bread and water all the time cause you never know. Prepare yourself just in case. 
I'm not a disgruntled laid off worker who lost anything or is struggling right now. Thankfully. I just feel really bad for the people that are going through this. It has to really suck.
The economy is hitting many, many people.
The folks that can afford PSL's are, for the most part, not in that group. But for the one's that are, welcome to real life. We all have to cut back, so if they have to cut back, then it's in their best interest not to renew their PSL.
It's still in the contract, and therefore still fair. Does it kinda suck? Depends on whether or not each individual person was dumb enough to sign up without reading the contract they were signing, or if they were like millions of Americans who aren't smart enough to plan their finances wisely enough.
If you wish to make this a topic about how the economy effects people, that's one thing, but that isn't what this is about.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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2nd String
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The Carolina Panthers are a business, not a charity. If people aren't going to pay for the season tickets that they reserved, they should be given to somebody who wants to and can afford them. End of story. Ticket holders could have sold their tickets. Besides... if people are so strapped they can't hold up their contractual agreement to buy playoff tickets, they may not have money to buy the tickets next season anyway.
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YOu know damn well Carolina sold those playoff seats anyway. No loss there. And maybe they will have money for tickets next year. You never know.
THey did breach their contract and I have no real problem with them being taken away. My larger issue is with PSL's in general.
#gmstrong
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YOu know damn well Carolina sold those playoff seats anyway. No loss there.
The attendance at the game, as listed by nfl.com is about 80 people short of stadium capacity, which is pretty close... so either we are talking about 80 people who did this... or they sold a bunch of those tickets....
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THey did breach their contract and I have no real problem with them being taken away.
They did and in theory, I don't either... but the one thing I do have a problem with is this... we all gripe and complain that so many seats are bought up by corporations and given to clients and employees who may or may not be the kind of die hard fans you want to have at games... that this is just going to encourage more of that. If the team is unwilling to work with these individuals who, in all probability are just middle class fans, then middle class folks are going to be reluctant to drop that kind of money on something like this, if they know going in that if they have a bad year financially and can't afford a few playoff tickets that they will lose their PSLs. So while what the Panthers are doing is within their legal right, it's probably not going to sit well with a portion of the fan base....
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My larger issue is with PSL's in general.
Mine too. That's one of the reasons I've never joined a golf club because most, if not all, of them want a big chunk of money up front that you can't get back, no matter what happens to your financial situation or if you are forced to move for job reasons or whatever... and I just can't bet $15,000 or more that I'm going to be here long enough to get my moneys worth out of it...
yebat' Putin
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All Pro
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"then it's in their best interest not to renew their PSL."
A year ago they could afford the whole package, season tickets and possible playoff tickets and they enjoy going to all of the games. Now times are harder and they can't afford the playoff tickets. The problem with your quote above is that they paid a lot of money to get the PSL's and the PSL's carry cash value. If they tried to sell the PSL's now, however, they would be going for almost nothing. To just lose the PSL's has to be a tough pill to swallow. Regardless if this was in their contracts or not, I just hope there was a good faith attempt to notify people that they would lose their PSLs if they did not purchase the playoff tickets.
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Quote:
The problem with your quote above is that they paid a lot of money to get the PSL's and the PSL's carry cash value. If they tried to sell the PSL's now, however, they would be going for almost nothing.
Why do you believe the PSLs have lost so much value?
yebat' Putin
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And really, you shouldn't look at PSLs as having value.
It will be nice if I can sell mine, and they are pretty good seats, but if I ever give up my seats, it will probably be a last minute decision and just not send in the money for the tickets, more or less just turning the seats back in to the Browns..
That PSL money was spent long ago.....gone as far as I am concerned. If I can sell the PSL's, fine, if not, I am not going to sit around feeling like I just lost $3000.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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At your age, I thought all you did was sit around..... 
yebat' Putin
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At your age, I thought all you did was sit around.....
I enjoy sitting around. Don't knock it.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
I just hope there was a good faith attempt to notify people that they would lose their PSLs if they did not purchase the playoff tickets.
Why should there have to be? It's clearly spelled out in the document they signed.Quote:
To just lose the PSL's has to be a tough pill to swallow.
It's only a few hundred bucks to have it reinstated, if I read it all correctly. So, again, if they can't afford a few hundred bucks, then it's in their best interest just to let it go.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
A year ago they could afford the whole package, season tickets and possible playoff tickets and they enjoy going to all of the games. Now times are harder and they can't afford the playoff tickets.
It takes a decent ammount of change to purchase a PSL and season tickets you don't just jump into it without thought. If you can't afford a playoff game or two you have no business buying a PSL and season tickets. This is a classic case of money mismanagment buy a few who live for now and don't worry about tomorrow.
Let me guess? A year ago they could afford a computer and the internet to sell the tickets but can't now. Give it up.
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Nobody predicts the future. When they bought the PSLs....maybe 10 years ago, things could have been rosy in life.
Lose your job, things aren't so rosy.
Mismanagement and making poor decisions isn't always the problem.
We need to get off that theme.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Really. People are acting as if only eternally rich people should have PSLs.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Well, of course. Excuse me now. I have a breakfast meeting with my friend, Mr. Mon E. Bags to discuss our PSLs.........
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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That's funny...I'm having lunch with him!
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Yeah, the guy is always eating......... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Really. People are acting as if only eternally rich people should have PSLs.
No, not eternally rich people.. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you own PSLs right? You are NOT eternally (or even presently) rich right? So if going into December the Browns were in contention for a home playoff game and you weren't going to be able to make it for financial reasons... would you deal with it or just ignore it and risk violating your contract and having your PSLs revoked?
yebat' Putin
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Lose your job, things aren't so rosy.
Lose your job, unload the PSLs or make other arrangements until you get back on your feet.
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Mismanagement and making poor decisions isn't always the problem.
A temporary financial setback might be unavoidable and not be the problem...... mismanagement of that setback is the problem. PSLs are an asset, something with cash value, so in a bad financial time, it needs managed and protected, just like your 401K, your car, your life insurance etc... You don't just let it lapse and have it taken away if you have other options.. and in this case, there are other options, like sell them to somebody else.
yebat' Putin
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Michelle, I'm sure, will provide her own answer. But for me, assuming I did not have the cash on hand, I'd put the tickets on a credit card and sell them if I needed the dough.
But I have to admit I did not know that you had to buy the playoff tickets as part of the PSL agreement. Probably because in 10 years it's never been a question, really.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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But I have to admit I did not know that you had to buy the playoff tickets as part of the PSL agreement. Probably because in 10 years it's never been a question, really.
And that, in my opinion, is probably what happened in many of these cases.. the people just didn't know the consequences of NOT buying the tickets. I've never owned PSLs or season tickets anywhere, and in not knowing, I thought that owning the PSLs just gave you FIRST OPTION to buy playoff tickets. I didn't know it was an OBLIGATION. Hopefully if I ever owned them I would know. So in reality it's the ticket holders fault for owning and not knowing.. but in the end, heck, McNabb didn't even know the overtime rules in the sport he's played for 10 years...
yebat' Putin
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It's a lot like scalping tickets. Some teams can (and will) revoke your PSL for selling any of your season tickets above face value.
The Browns just say you can't sell them on Stadium property.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Quote:
So if going into December the Browns were in contention for a home playoff game and you weren't going to be able to make it for financial reasons... would you deal with it or just ignore it and risk violating your contract and having your PSLs revoked?
Of course I would deal with it. I think the thing to do is PLAN on buying playoff tickets every season. That way, as it was a couple years ago for us, you aren't hit with a several hundred dollar bill two or three weeks before Christmas. I'm not saying these people shouldn't have their PSLs revoked...I think they should. They essentially voided their contracts. Not smart. I'm just saying that having PSLs does not mean you always have an extra large amount of cash laying around in December to buy tickets that may not be used.
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I'm just saying that having PSLs does not mean you always have an extra large amount of cash laying around in December to buy tickets that may not be used.
And I'm saying that if you have PSLs then manage them... and I'm also saying that a few hundred bucks on a credit card isn't an extra large amount of cash to float for a few weeks if you have to buy and then resell the tickets...
yebat' Putin
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I just wanted to clarify that I don't think that eternally rich should only own/purchase PSL's, I just have a hard time feeling bad for people who didn't look into their financial big picture. Many people like to live beyond their means, and some even take their own jobs for granted and think they are going to be around forever, basically just as someone already mentioned if you can't afford a couple hundred bucks to renew the PSL or for this case buy playoff tickets, these peole shouldn't have PSL's because they don't have the coin to afford it. People can do what they want to with their money but don't complain because your life changed and you can't afford a luxary, PSL's are not someones right it is a purchase, an option, don't like the contract don't sign it.
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And, I agree. 
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And, I agree.
That's basically what I said and you argued with me...  
yebat' Putin
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I understand that DC.......but some in here are saying they shouldn't have bought the PSLs and they made poor choices.
I am not sticking up for the people other than it isn't right to just say they should have never bought the things.
Read what I said earlier...the team would have been dumb not to enforce the contract..
If these people lose their seats....tough luck....I don't blame the team.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
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And, I agree.
That's basically what I said and you argued with me...
It's the way you say it. 
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Here's what I said: Quote:
I'm not saying these people shouldn't have their PSLs revoked...I think they should. They essentially voided their contracts.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Quote:
Here's what I said:
Quote:
I'm not saying these people shouldn't have their PSLs revoked...I think they should. They essentially voided their contracts.
Some people can't read or can't remember a flow of conversation.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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See, so we are basically in agreement then.. I'm not saying they shouldn't have bought them ..... I'm saying they should have managed them better and possibly gotten rid of them if things were that bad...
yebat' Putin
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I think most of us are in agreement about what the Panthers did, and the responsibility of the PSL owners. Somewhere in this thread people got the notion that only certain people should own PSL's but I don't think that is the case or the views that have been given by DC, Toad, Peen, Michelle, Jules, I think we are all on the same page concerning this topic, or I missed something.
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The only time I would say that people shouldn't have bought PSL's in the first place is if they were in financial turmoil prior or during the purchase when these people are biting off more then they can chew, and are not making their house payments or their family is struggling to put food on the table, these people shouldn't have PSL's since their priorities are whacked, but unfortunately it is still their choice so my opinion really doesn't matter, they can do what they what with their money no matter what I think and will, but this is probably the only situation where I think people shouldn't own such a luxary.
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Quote:
See, so we are basically in agreement then.. I'm not saying they shouldn't have bought them ..... I'm saying they should have managed them better and possibly gotten rid of them if things were that bad...
Sometimes you are restricted....I would have to pull out the PSL agreement, but i know there is a window in which PSLs can be transfered...I think just after the Super bowl ends and 4-1 if I am not mistaken...I don't have the whole thing memorized...just the parts I feel are important to me at this time since I don't plan on selling anytime soon.
But yep....unloading playoff tickets couldn't be that hard...and couldn't have been so hard you couldn't have gotten the money up front if you knew times were tough.
I know when the schedule is released, I look for my buyers to the games I don't plan on attending almost immediately, and stay close to make sure things don't change.
I figure most people are going to go to at least a game or two, so rather than fight with ticket master when they go on sale, they know they have a game or two.
You probably need to get up to a game this year. 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
You probably need to get up to a game this year.
I went to the Buffalo game in the blizzard 2 years ago, then in December when we were up, we opted for a Cavs game instead for obvious reasons... (one being the Browns were on that Monday night and we would be gone)....
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But yep....unloading playoff tickets couldn't be that hard...and couldn't have been so hard you couldn't have gotten the money up front if you knew times were tough.
And that's been my point. These PSL owners are more than likely middle to upper middle class folks, with middle to upper middle class friends and middle to upper middle class jobs.. surely they could find SOMEBODY to take these tickets and if not, there is always e-bay or craigs list. Most of them probably either just didn't know it was an obligation or didn't know the consequences would be this severe.. or they were just lazy.
yebat' Putin
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Like I said early on in this thread.....my experience is most people just don't pay attention.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Carolina Panthers revoking PSLs
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