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To me, it would be stupid to trade the guy you think is your best qb because you hope to draft the guy you really want.
Only if the guy you want is better than the best you have..that would be my only response .
I doubt if BQ is traded..like I said how long ago..he brings the best value to get picks, but DA is the one who needs to be traded..
There is still a disconnect here my friend.
I am not talking about picks or anything other than trading Quinn before we actually selected the guy we wanted would be risky business.
Right now, Detroit is the only team who knows that the guy they want will be there when it is their turn to pick.
If we were to trade BQ today, that would signal to me that the team actually favors DA over Quinn. If they hold Quinn to Saturday, select Sanchez, then ship Quinn, it means they favored Quinn over DA.
You don't ship off the guy you plan to start, even if he isn't the guy they really want, until you are 100% sure you are going to get the player you want.
Make sense???
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Oh they wouldn't trade Quinn today..just like I said to Diam..they wouldn't trade Edwards today..either or both would be done on draft day when the Browns and/or their trade partner are on the clock..
I gotcha ... 
But if Sanchez is on the board and they don't select him..we all know they have no intention of trading Quinn..now that I said that watch them do just the opposite 
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we all know they have no intention of trading Quinn
forgetting the quinn vs da crap, quinn gets $11 million this season in escalators if he plays 70% of the snaps this year. i have heard no efforts in restructuring but i doubt mangini is going to risk that much money on a qb he may not be sold on. imo, unless mangini, through his own diligence, KNOWS that quinn will be above-average, quinn is gone. once he hits that escalator, his salary stays high and will be even tougher to move.
even if we were to move quinn for sanchez, salary cap-wise, it would still be a wiser move. further, considering how penny-pinching the new regime has been, i just don't thing they accept their first full-season starting qbmaking $11 million. then again, you could make the argument that they cleared up all that cash so they could fit his salary. just don't know, but i know we're getting our answers soon.
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i just don't thing they accept their first full-season starting qbmaking $11 million. then again, you could make the argument that they cleared up all that cash so they could fit his salary. just don't know, but i know we're getting our answers soon.
Ok if i understand the cap right all escalaters in salary for perferance is already figured into the cap, so if they were clearing space it's not because of any extra money Quinn may make. Although i do agree if he starts and blows then he will be harder to move...But the escalaters are already figured in.....
nordawg
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False. Since Quinn did not play 70% of the snaps last year those escalators are considered not likely to be earned. With NLTBE bonuses, the amount is not previously figured in.
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it doesn't appear to me that mangini would want to pay $11 million this year to an average starter. Look at what mangini did with schaffer and he had JJ and tucker restructure as well. I don't think he'll fight to save a few million and in turn give a first full-time starter $11 million, especially one who isn't established and is still a question mark.
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i agree but if we draft a QB at 5 your going to pay him that...that's why i'm leaning towards Crabs now with the first pick..
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I'm talking this year...I know he didn't make the time last yr..but the paragragh below is based on what the team did the previous yr....
To determine whether a clause is LTBE or NLTBE for Salary Cap purposes (i.e., not whether the player actually earned the incentive), it is necessary to look at the performance of the team in the prior season, not the current season. For example, assume Player X receives an incentive bonus if he participates in 50% of the team’s offensive plays this season. Assume further that last season the team had 1,000 offensive plays. Therefore, as soon as Player X plays in 500 plays in the current season (or 50% of last year’s 1,000 plays), the incentive will be considered earned for Salary Cap purposes. The same incentive is considered not earned if the same player in the current year only participated in one of the team’s first 502 offensive plays. In this situation, it would be impossible for the player to achieve the 50% incentive based on last year’s performance of 1,000 plays. It is important to remember that looking to last year’s performance level is only for Salary Cap purposes and will not affect the players right to receive a bonus for his performance in the current year.
i understand what you were saying about last yr but if Bradys starting his cap has to be figured in....
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But if Sanchez is on the board and they don't select him..we all know they have no intention of trading Quinn..now that I said that watch them do just the opposite
I would say that is a fair comment.
I guess the only caveat would be we make a trade with another team for our pick at #5 that also includes Quinn......but that would have to be one doozy of a trade bringing us who knows what......players and picks I would assume. It would have to be a epic deal.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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matt ryan, the 3rd overall last year, has salaries in the 3.5-4.5 range, not 11. 11 million is peyton manning money.
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No man, you don't get it. If Quinn had played 70% of the snaps last year, his escalator would already be figured in, but since he didn't, it is not. It has nothing to do with where he is on the depth chart. If and when he does play 70% of the snaps, he will count against the cap for $11 million. Until then, he is on the books for his base salary, his pro-rated signing bonus, and any bonuses he is due.
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Would U care to respond to Dong? Cuze I don't want to right now..I might get banned 
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Sure, why not? Matt Ryan signed for 6-years $72 million. He got $34.7 million guaranteed. Sure he only had a base salary of around $3 million, but he had bonuses that brought it up to about $13 and with incentives he made a lot more than that, but I don't know quite how much.
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matt ryan, the 3rd overall last year, has salaries in the 3.5-4.5 range, not 11. 11 million is peyton manning money.
Signing bonuses count immediately don't they?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Not that part..the part about paying 11mill to an average starter..those escalaters..
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signing bonuses are prorated across (up to) 5 years (1/5 each year).
NLTBE bonuses which are earned count against the next year's cap.
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Are you thinking that Quinn isn't an average starter or that lots of guys get $11 million? Regardless, DA counts against the cap for about $9 million this year, I believe.
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i am by no means a capologist. here is my general understanding. when you look at a contract, you only look at the guaranteed money and within that, it's spread out between bonuses (most are pro-rated) and salaries that have been assured. ryan is on a 6 year with 34.75 million guaranteed. if he hits all the incentives and everything in the contract, it could go as high as 72 millio, the upper bound of the contract. that said, it's not evenly spread out from the years of the contract and typically increase slightly year to year. just taking the average, though, ryan is pulling in a little under $6 million a year, not counting the escalators that he may or may not have hit recently. at $6 million a year for the 3rd overall pick, i doubt sanchez would reach that number as the #5 even with an increase.
anyone thinking 11 million isn't something mangini is thinking about is kidding themselves. further, if quinn hits the escalator, that means the salary for the for the season after will be in that range as well, which is why it would be harder for us to trade him.
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I'm not thinking anything..Dong said why pay 11mill to a average starter...but look at the jack DA got and he's well below average.. I just didn't feel like responding to that without saying something really ...sarcastic or mean...or rude..like my old self
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here is exactly what i said: Quote:
imo, unless mangini, through his own diligence, KNOWS that quinn will be above-average, quinn is gone. once he hits that escalator, his salary stays high and will be even tougher to move.
there is NOTHING unreasonable about that statement. the simple fact is, unless mangini is comfortable with quinn's prospects, he will not risk 11 million against the cap to find an average or worse starter. new coaches always want their guy at qb. that's just how it is. mangini will not tie himself to a previous regime's qb at 11 million a year.
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Nice try..this is what U also said..we know U don't like Quinn..
" it doesn't appear to me that mangini would want to pay $11 million this year to an average starter."
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Quote:
forgetting the quinn vs da crap, quinn gets $11 million this season in escalators if he plays 70% of the snaps this year. i have heard no efforts in restructuring but i doubt mangini is going to risk that much money on a qb he may not be sold on. imo, unless mangini, through his own diligence, KNOWS that quinn will be above-average, quinn is gone. once he hits that escalator, his salary stays high and will be even tougher to move.
even if we were to move quinn for sanchez, salary cap-wise, it would still be a wiser move. further, considering how penny-pinching the new regime has been, i just don't thing they accept their first full-season starting qbmaking $11 million. then again, you could make the argument that they cleared up all that cash so they could fit his salary. just don't know, but i know we're getting our answers soon.
you're taking the context of my quote wrong. i am simply saying that, if quinn turned out to just be average, mangini would not want to commit $11 million to him. that is why, as i said in my quoted text, unless mangini really believes quinn will be above average, he won't commit to quinn because of the escalator.
the sooner you get it through your head that i don't dislike any browns player, the better off you'll be. it's pathetic that, should anyone have an opinion other than quinn is the second coming, we are interpretted as hating him. oh i'm sorry, i should say "Him."
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You're right. You just really like DA, and blame Quinn for him not being the starter, and second coming. You say you can't see Mangni keeping Quinn around if he's making $11 million and starting, yet you think he'll keep DA around for $9 million as a backup.
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i simply think DA can be a better qb. that's my opinion.
I don't blame anyone for anything. i think DA got the raw deal because his players and coaches put him in a bad situation but i also think he made some bad plays as well. it's a team sport. when you only have one legit receiver and that receiver has the case of the dropsies, i don't think you can do much as a qb.
that said, DA's $5 million was guaranteed. there was nothing we can do about that. coming from this point on, DA will cost $1.5 million, quinn will cost $11.
and you misunderstand me. i can't see mangini risking quinn costing $11 million unless he thinks quinn will be a good to great qb. since reports say he's not enamored with quinn, putting my speculation and this rumor together, tells me quinn will be shipped.
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i simply think DA can be a better qb. that's my opinion.
In the end,,,, you may be right. No way to know right now, so much of this whole debate is without much value..,
As for 11 million, if Quinn turns out to be the starter and he wins,, I doubt they'll have much trouble with that number.. If he doesn't start, he won't hit the incentives,, thus no 11 million to pay out.
And if he doesn't beat out DA and DA Succeeds,, then I have to believe Quinns value will plummet so if it's the decision of the brain trust that Quinn isn't the answer, I'd just as soon have them trade him now... We'd get more for him then.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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I am tired of it....I am now a Falcons fan.
lol....I can't even type that with a straight face.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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As for 11 million, if Quinn turns out to be the starter and he wins,, I doubt they'll have much trouble with that number.. If he doesn't start, he won't hit the incentives,, thus no 11 million to pay out.
the only thing i ever intended, by bringing up the 11 million, is simply a different angle as to what's hurting his chances. obviously, if quinn starts, that means mangini is comfortable enough with him to accept paying that much. aside from a simple qb battle, the economics do hurt quinn's chances. that's all. i did everything i could to avoid bringing DA into this because he had nothing to do with this angle yet they still drew it out of me.
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the only thing i ever intended, by bringing up the 11 million, is simply a different angle as to what's hurting his chances.
I fear I've been roped into this....LOL
I don't feel as if 11 million will hinder his chances to remain a Brown....IF HE PRODUCES.. the money won't matter. They'll restructure it in a fashion that may be a little more cap friendly and extend it for many years to come.
If he doesn't produce,,, no incentives, thus no 11 million to pay out,, thus no problem..
I don't see where you are coming from on this Dong.. that 11 million is meaningless....
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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the problem is he doesn't need to "produce" to reach the 11 million. this isn't some sort of performance milestone where he goes to the playoffs, the pro bowl, and throws for 50 tds. all he needs to do is be on the field for 70% of the time a qb is on the field. 70% of the snaps = $11 million in escalators. that's the risk involved. if you don't know what you have in him as a starter, you need to make an $11 million leap of faith that he's at least average to justify the cap casualty for the year after.
if you're mangini, and you're just eh on both qbs (according to the rumors) and assuming EVERYTHING is in your mind is equal between the two players. if one player is going to cost you $1.5 million (knowing that you had to pay a $5 million bonus either way, so at this point, it's "only" 1.5 million) and one player was going to cost you $11 million. who do you start?
there is one, THIRD, angle that I didn't look into, mainly because i had to explain so much. one thing that can happen is start quinn and if he sucks, bench him after half of the season. then he doesn't hit the 70% snaps and misses the escalator. that's possible too.
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I want conclusion - if Sanchez is there and we pass on him...all know that M/K have complete confidence in BQ
I just want closure one way or another JMHO
hmmmm-- i hadn't thought of it that way. it is a way to end this controversy.
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You're right. You just really like DA, and blame Quinn for him not being the starter, and second coming. You say you can't see Mangni keeping Quinn around if he's making $11 million and starting, yet you think he'll keep DA around for $9 million as a backup.
Really great counter-point there, you.  If this WAS the issue, obviously then, money would NOT be a consideration.
Sure would be nice to know what the deal is,...we'll find out Saturday, 'eh ??
I really think we're going with Quinn. Anderson doesn't have IT, Quinn hasn't been given a chance to show IT, and Sanchez is three years out from IT.
Super Bowl in 2-3, or I am checking out.
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I love how you know what Mangini would do or not do. If Quinn plays 70 percent of the snaps, I guess he would probably have earned the 11 million.
You're whole angle still reflects your opinion of Quinn and you keep using the Mangini is not enamored with Quinn quote, when it is not really been proven he ever even said that. IMO that rumor has grown from a statement someone concocted using him passing him in the draft. It was obvious that the Jets were not in the market for a QB that year, so IMO that statement has no legs.
Drafting Sanchez is going to be very expensive, and he is a lesser known commodity than Quinn. How he handles the pro game is pure speculation. The guy only play something like 16 games in coolege. Then there's the hold-out. They all do it, and I'm sure he will too.
I can't wait until saturday night so this crap gets put to sleep.
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the problem is he doesn't need to "produce" to reach the 11 million. this isn't some sort of performance milestone where he goes to the playoffs, the pro bowl, and throws for 50 tds. all he needs to do is be on the field for 70% of the time a qb is on the field.
OMG,, if he doesn't produce, how likely is it that he'll be on the field for 70% of the time?
#GMSTRONG
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But if Sanchez is on the board and they don't select him..we all know they have no intention of trading Quinn
I am Truly hoping that Sanchez is there at #5 because it is a win-win scenario. (1) If we want BQ, we will have numeous trade partners for the spot, and Still keep BQ. (2) If Sanchez is the one, we can get the extra picks for the BQ trade. I hope we keep BQ and sell the pick to the highest bidder!!!! JMHO Go Brownies!!!!
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I understand what you are saying dong. Does Mangini think he is worth 11 million, or he can have Anderson who's been there for 1.5M. I don't think you would be hearing about all the talking going on, if Mangini was totally comfortable with him. What is the 9.8 million that is unlikely to be earned?? Pro-Bowl or Super Bowl appearances probably, any way you look at it, why would a player put unattainable bonus money in the contract. I just wonder what happens if we trade Quinn and take Crabtree or take Sanchez to trade Down and get extra picks close to a player they are looking at around say pick #17 or so. Then what with some of you? EO already stated that Mangini would be a bonehead, others have stated they will no longer root for the Browns. This is a real possibility, and your 2009/2010 starter would be Anderson. Have you thought about that yet. The lineman we have signed are not exactly athletic guys that can protect a QB that moves in the pocket. How do you know that he isn't enamored with him and during talks takes him out of the equation. Will you root for him and support him, or jump off the bandwagon. I know if Quinn is the starter I will support him....that is until his first bad game when I will boo him.... which is protocol. , right? Just kidding, I don't boo our own players or cheer when they get hurt. These are not the same fans as when I grew up...that's for sure. http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=NFL&id=41498/7/2007: Signed a five-year, $9.25 million contract. The deal contains $7.75 million guaranteed, including a $4.255 million option bonus in the second year. Another $11 million is available though escalators in 2010 and 2011 based on Quinn taking at least 55% of the snaps in each of the first two years or at least 70% in his third season. Another $9.8 million is available, but is unlikely to be earned. 2009: $655,000, 2010-2011: $700,000, 2011: Free Agent
Last edited by LOYALDAWG; 04/20/09 08:40 PM.
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Quote:
Quote:
the problem is he doesn't need to "produce" to reach the 11 million. this isn't some sort of performance milestone where he goes to the playoffs, the pro bowl, and throws for 50 tds. all he needs to do is be on the field for 70% of the time a qb is on the field.
OMG,, if he doesn't produce, how likely is it that he'll be on the field for 70% of the time?
We have 2 QBs at present. If we move one ... the other better produce because he'll be on the field for the year whether he does or not. (Unless we take a QB at 5)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If they take a QB at 5, I'm checking out for sure. Sorry, I am an old man and have been around a long time,...that will not work.
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all he needs to do is be on the field for 70% of the time a qb is on the field
Here's a thought to just stir the pot...What does Mangini do if DA wins the competition in TC and gets hurt in the first couple of games (out for the season) and BQ comes in and stinks it up? That would means $11mil for a QB that sucks! LOL  Sorry, I couldn't help myself!!!  Go Brownies!!!!
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that's why i said Quote:
there is one, THIRD, angle that I didn't look into, mainly because i had to explain so much. one thing that can happen is start quinn and if he sucks, bench him after half of the season. then he doesn't hit the 70% snaps and misses the escalator. that's possible too.
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What is the 9.8 million that is unlikely to be earned?? Pro-Bowl or Super Bowl appearances probably, any way you look at it, why would a player put unattainable bonus money in the contract. I just wonder what happens if we trade Quinn and take Crabtree or take Sanchez to trade Down and get extra picks close to a player they are looking at around say pick #17 or so. Then what with some of you? EO already stated that Mangini would be a bonehead, others have stated they will no longer root for the Browns. This is a real possibility, and your 2009/2010 starter would be Anderson. Have you thought about that yet. The lineman we have signed are not exactly athletic guys that can protect a QB that moves in the pocket. How do you know that he isn't enamored with him and during talks takes him out of the equation.
i think you get my point loyal but again
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Any team interested in Quinn would have to consider his contract situation. If he plays 70% of the snaps in 2009, he will reach $11 million in escalators, which the new team would either have to pay or renegotiate.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/04/will_cleveland_browns_part_wit.html
these are not "unlikely to be earned" escalators if he's the starter. but i give up.
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Will you root for him and support him, or jump off the bandwagon. I know if Quinn is the starter I will support him....that is until his first bad game when I will boo him.... which is protocol. , right? Just kidding, I don't boo our own players or cheer when they get hurt. These are not the same fans as when I grew up...that's for sure.
of course i would. i never liked the quinn pick but, and i wasn't on this board at the time so i don't expect others to know this, the silver lining that i saw was that we could have the qb set for at least a few years, potentially for 10 years. i want nothing more than to just stick with ONE qb. just because i don't think he's the guy doesn't mean i'd root against him or anything. doesn't mean i think i'm wrong, though.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Quinn & Edwards Part II...
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