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"I'm done with the Indians." - Daryl Ruiter
I'm glad I'm not alone on this.
I'm not directing this entirely at you Ammo....but on the general consensus on this trade....
Anyone that wants to complain about the Tribe trading away guys....look at the attendance...we are a small market team, which means that attendance is the biggest driver of revenue. That and merchandise, which isn't exactly fly ing off the shelves.
MLB eocnomics dictated this....if you are not gonig to games you previously would have (like if you are in town and won't "give" them your money) or you jumpt ship to another team to root for just because they have the $$$ to not lose players like this, then you are part of the problem.
small to medium market teams HAVE to make trades like this when they feel the value is right......
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The only head scratcher is the catcher. Suppose Shoppach is only going to be around one more year or until Santana is ready. I would think this guy would be a great defensive catcher?
Francisco had to go to open up a spot for Laporta, so that wasn't all that surprising. No way Choo was going to be taken out of the lineup.
Carrasco is a very nice prospect. Mid 90's FB and a plus change. Many viewed him as the best the Phillies had.
Donald has struggled this year adjusting to AAA but I believe he was the SS or 2B for team USA? My guess is he slides to second with Drubes playing as well as he is.
Knapp is a power pitcher with a lot of upside, something we don't really have in our farm system.
All in all, not bad. Believe we got 4 of their top 10 prospects? Pretty good haul.
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I posted this earlier or on another thread....it warrantes a re-post.....and I noted that I was disappointed we didn't get Knapp, Happ or Drabek....well, we got Knapp....and got rid of Ben Francisco (opening up an OF spot for someone with a higher ceiling); I'm on board with both of those movements.
Knapp - #10 phillies prospect by Baseball America. 111/39 KO/BB ratio. 4.0 ERA and 3-7 record.....Shapiro is going after pitchers who strike guys out and don't walk guys...not a bad way to go though yes it would be nice to see better numbers. scouts seem to agree with him though.
Carrasco - #2 phillies prospect by Baseball America (#1 last year) hard throwing pitcher who doesn't walk many....ERA over 5 at AAA though and is only 6-9 because of it. Could very well end up a good middle rotation guy though if he keeps up the 112/38 K/BB ratio.
Jason Donald - #4 phillies prospect by Baseball America. extremely good arm, below average speed makes him a Jeter-like defender at SS. Very well could move to 3B. Had been tearing up every level of minor league ball offensively until he got to AAA this year where he has struggled. Good doubles-power.
Lou Marson - #3 Phillies prospect by Baseball America. played some with the Phillies this year and struggled at the plate...though that is where he will make his living. No real power, but good line drive hitter and hits for average. Defensively, he blocks the plate well and has an above average arm but apparently was switched to catcher his last year in college so has limited experience there that sometimes shows. D'Aunard in the system (lower level though) makes him expendable for Philly (many consider D'Aunard a better prospect).
Bonus note: Marson and Donald both started for Team USA.
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Quote:
Quote:
"I'm done with the Indians." - Daryl Ruiter
I'm glad I'm not alone on this.
I'm not directing this entirely at you Ammo....but on the general consensus on this trade....
Anyone that wants to complain about the Tribe trading away guys....look at the attendance...we are a small market team, which means that attendance is the biggest driver of revenue. That and merchandise, which isn't exactly fly ing off the shelves.
MLB eocnomics dictated this....if you are not gonig to games you previously would have (like if you are in town and won't "give" them your money) or you jumpt ship to another team to root for just because they have the $$$ to not lose players like this, then you are part of the problem.
small to medium market teams HAVE to make trades like this when they feel the value is right......
The Cavs are a small to medium market team. Their owner spends money hand over fist...we're WAY over the luxury tax.
But we come in DROVES to see the Cavs. Dan Gilbert is making TRUCKLOADS of money despite spending so much as well. He's getting a return on his investment!
Why? The belief that ownership will do everything to ensure we win.
The Indians? We DID come when we felt that way about ownership. We don't feel that way anymore. Why should we pay for a poor product?
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Forgive me for not being overwhelmed by this trade ..... or direction of the team.
I am really tired of watching guys develop just to move on to a richer team .....
Baseball is committing suicide with its current financial setup. Once "mid to lower rung" teams die off .... there won't be enough of a nationwide interest in what's left to sustain those few teams.
Baseball is a dying game as it is .... with little youth interest and involvement in the game itself ..... and destroying fans of mid to smaller market teams isnt going to make the game any healthier.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Donald has struggled this year adjusting to AAA but I believe he was the SS or 2B for team USA? My guess is he slides to second with Drubes playing as well as he is.
Donald is also 25, so its a little dishearting to see him play so terrible this year in Triple A.
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Francisco had to go to open up a spot for Laporta, so that wasn't all that surprising. No way Choo was going to be taken out of the lineup.
I think the ideal situation for the future would be for LaPorta to be able to play 1st and have an outfield of Sizemore, Brantley and Choo.
Eat it Phil...
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Ammo, you're comparing apples to oranges.
One single player in basketball (LeBron) can make a team great. While you need a supporting cast around him, you need ALOT more pieces to win in baseball.
We have a TON of holes on our roster. The only way to fill them, as a small market team, is to shed payroll and collect prospects (see the Marlins). They've won 2 WS titles doing this.
If you don't understand that, then it's probably not even worth the time.
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are you really going to argue that NBA economics = MLB economics???
the NBA has WAAAYYYYY more revenue sharing for teams that struggle...which allow them to build teams and eventually compete or consistently put out a mediocre product and make $$$ anyway (see Clippers).
Also, there are strangleholds on marquee players that seriously limit the ease of those players jumping ship.
and the Cavs have LEBRON JAMES....he alone drives merchandise sales for the team where the ownership can spend more money. then bring in the extra revenue from TV contracts he brings in....and let's not forget the fans that come to see HIM.
sorry to go Diam on you in this post....but I just do not equote NBA to MLB when it comes to this type of thing.
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Ammo, you're comparing apples to oranges.
One single player in basketball (LeBron) can make a team great. While you need a supporting cast around him, you need ALOT more pieces to win in baseball.
We have a TON of holes on our roster. The only way to fill them, as a small market team, is to shed payroll and collect prospects (see the Marlins). They've won 2 WS titles doing this.
If you don't understand that, then it's probably not even worth the time.
No I understand it...
I just believe that if you want to blame poor attendance, that's a joke. We'd pack the place if we won. Are we supposed to sell out a stadium when a team is consistently weak?
Last edited by Ammo; 07/29/09 03:09 PM.
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we didn't even get their top prospect.
we traded a cy young winner and didn't get a team's top prospect.
that's pathetic.
wait, i thought we would have gotten a better deal now with lee having a team option, rather than next year when a team gets him for a few months?
so what would have happened had we dealt lee next year, we get a bag of used baseballs for him?
this is so incredibly lame.
and deep threat, i am embarassed, i am embarassed for the baseball we're going to see for the next 3 or 4 years.
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I don't think striking out 1 of every 2 at bats has helped Shoppach. I'm not sure the Indians still regard him as a Major League hitter. From the little I've read about Marson, he is a good contact hitter with doubles power. He has a good throwing arm but has some holes defensively because he was just switched to catcher as a senior in college. He'll probably end up as Santana's backup. Or else Wedge will switch Santana to 1B, because, you know, you just can't have enough first basemen. 
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Saying we didn't get their top prospect probably depends on who you talk to. Carrasco was rated #1 in 2008. #2 in 2009. Think you're splitting hairs if you're saying he's not worthy of carrying a trade, simply because he dropped one spot from last year.
Not saying I like trading away established players but it is what it is. Shapiro got 4 of the top 10 prospects in one team's farm system. I mean, what else could he have asked for?
With a small market team, you take your chances and hope that it works out.
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No I understand it...
I just believe that if you want to blame poor attendance, that's a joke. We'd pack the place if we won. Are we supposed to sell out a stadium when a team is consistently weak?
I'm calling shenanigans.....the days of the Cavs being boring and the Browns not being around are gone.
while attendance was obviously a bit better....we had a good team 2 years ago...did we sellout those games?
and i'm not even saying to sellout....but I have friends that have gone from 20 games to 1 this year if any.....cut back a few games if you have to, but completely cutting the team out just adds to the problem.
it''s obviously not the whole problem (the poor scouting on relievers and poor drafting have contributed to not having a farm system capable of sending down struggling players to have a consistently decent team like the Twins)....but it is definitely part of why we have to ship guys out that get expensive and we dont' think we can resign.
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Why should we support a team that won't support themselves?
Please tell me that.
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Well then blame the Dolans. Telling your fanbase that you refuse to spend more money until the fans start showing up is the surest way to ensure that they won't show up. To blame the fanbase for the team having to ship out its players is 100% ridiculous.
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But we come in DROVES to see the Cavs. Dan Gilbert is making TRUCKLOADS of money despite spending so much as well. He's getting a return on his investment!
Why? The belief that ownership will do everything to ensure we win.
Fans show for the Cavs because they have Lebron and they're winning. It has NOTHING to do with Dan Gilbert's willingness to spend. YES, they don't win without his money.....but the hype Lebron brings sells that place out.
Indians didn't set that sellout streak because of Dick Jacobs....they did it with wins. Cleveland is a town of front-runners.....well, expect the Browns. When the Cavs and Indians are great......they show up and spend. Spending doesn't create wins, the Mets and Knicks are proof there.
Winning brings fans in. This trade may create more wins down the road in 2011-2015. Hey, we ALL bashed the Bartolo Colon trade and that brought in Stevens, Sizemore, Lee, and Phillips. That seemed to work out well.
If we are going to win this year and most of the guys we're trading won't resign after this or next year.......get something now and build for 2011-15. The Marlins and Rays did this year after year until they built a team. Then you make the best run possible and see what happens. There are no guarantees we can keep everyone. The Rays won't be able to keep Longoria....but they have to try to win now.
MLB sucks....but we can be stronger with this trade.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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There's a difference between actively supporting a team, and rooting for a team.
To say you are going back to the Yankees, just shows you were never an Indians fan to begin with.
I feel your pain, I really do. I didn't renew my Browns season tickets this year. I won't buy any merchandise, etc. But, I WILL NOT begin rooting for another team.
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i think the attendance is just an excuse that the dolans use.
"if you come, we'll spend"
are you serious? who says that?
who believes that?
what a load.
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Quote:
There's a difference between actively supporting a team, and rooting for a team.
To say you are going back to the Yankees, just shows you were never an Indians fan to begin with.
I feel your pain, I really do. I didn't renew my Browns season tickets this year. I won't buy any merchandise, etc. But, I WILL NOT begin rooting for another team.
i would love to play that card, yeah i'm gonna go root for the yankees or sox, or god forbid the freaking cubs.
but i just couldn't see myself rooting for another baseball team, just like when the browns left i didn't watch a lick of nfl football, couldn't see myself going all out for another team, pouring my heart for another team.
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To blame the fanbase for the team having to ship out its players is 100% ridiculous.
That's sugar-coating it. I'd get banned for describing their attitude as it is right now.
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The only way to fill them, as a small market team, is to shed payroll and collect prospects (see the Marlins). They've won 2 WS titles doing this.
The Marlins bought their first World Series.
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Why should we support a team that won't support themselves?
Please tell me that.
I don't think the Dolan's should use it as an excuse because they can't say it without it sounding lame....
but if you don't htink it's how MLB works, then you haven't been paying attention......
Santana doesn't pitch for the Twins anymore
Texeira isn't on the Rangers anymore
A-Rod isn't in Seattle anymore....and they couldn't keep Randy Johnson either
then we could get into the Marlins.....or just about any small market team (look at the A's doing the same thing every few years)
stars don't say forever on small market teams....even when they are winning. but completely turning your back on the team and not going to games sure isn't going to solve the problem
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Hey, we ALL bashed the Bartolo Colon trade and that brought in Stevens, Sizemore, Lee, and Phillips. That seemed to work out well.
I guess six seasons of .500 or worse baseball with one playoff appearance could be considered working out well. How many guys from that trade are still on the team?
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Quote:
Quote:
There's a difference between actively supporting a team, and rooting for a team.
To say you are going back to the Yankees, just shows you were never an Indians fan to begin with.
I feel your pain, I really do. I didn't renew my Browns season tickets this year. I won't buy any merchandise, etc. But, I WILL NOT begin rooting for another team.
i would love to play that card, yeah i'm gonna go root for the yankees or sox, or god forbid the freaking cubs.
but i just couldn't see myself rooting for another baseball team, just like when the browns left i didn't watch a lick of nfl football, couldn't see myself going all out for another team, pouring my heart for another team.
I never said pour my heart out for another team. I'd rather follow a more fun to watch team though.
I just can't do that anymore, not in baseball. The Browns, there's an endless supply of blood to pour because they're, well, the Browns. In the NFL there's a chance to win every year.
The Indians? Under this ownership? Forget it.
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stars don't say forever on small market teams....even when they are winning. but completely turning your back on the team and not going to games sure isn't going to solve the problem
Unless it forces the Dolans to face the reality that they're in over their heads and they sell the team to somebody who has the cash it takes to compete. 
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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it's gonna be like the old days at the muni where it was "have your own section" night
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I guess six seasons of .500 or worse baseball with one playoff appearance could be considered working out well. How many guys from that trade are still on the team?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Quote:
Hey, we ALL bashed the Bartolo Colon trade and that brought in Stevens, Sizemore, Lee, and Phillips. That seemed to work out well.
I guess six seasons of .500 or worse baseball with one playoff appearance could be considered working out well. How many guys from that trade are still on the team?
You really think we lost out on that trade? We WON HUGE! Ask anyone with a brain.
And Sizemore is still on the team, since you asked. Phillips would be if he bothered to figure anything out the first 4-5 times we gave him a chance. So he figured it out in Cincy....so what, it's not our fault. Some guys need a slap in the face to "get it". And as of right now, Cincy isn't really like him all that much too (He was suspened for not playing 100%).
Where's Bartolo Colon now? Washed up loser. The fact we have Sizemore AND the 4 prospects coming in today's Lee deal STILL makes it smart.
Had CC and Carmona not laid eggs in 2007, we'd have a WS title. That team was Sizemore's team. That wouldn't have been possible had we kept Colon.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Quote:
Quote:
stars don't say forever on small market teams....even when they are winning. but completely turning your back on the team and not going to games sure isn't going to solve the problem
Unless it forces the Dolans to face the reality that they're in over their heads and they sell the team to somebody who has the cash it takes to compete.
Or move the team to a place that is pining for a team....San Antonio was in the market until the economy collapsed....Nashville is a good sports town....
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
stars don't say forever on small market teams....even when they are winning. but completely turning your back on the team and not going to games sure isn't going to solve the problem
Unless it forces the Dolans to face the reality that they're in over their heads and they sell the team to somebody who has the cash it takes to compete.
Or move the team to a place that is pining for a team....San Antonio was in the market until the economy collapsed....Nashville is a good sports town....
preds for indians, straight up?
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j/c
just another sad day in Cleveland Indians history....by now, we should all be numb to it. What could be more "Cleveland" than trading the reigning Cy Young Award winner for (Knapp) a guy who has throwing shoulder pain and hasn't pitched in over two weeks because of it.
Well, it looks like we'll start the usual 5 yr rebuilding plan, and with any luck the current ownership will go belly up and have to sell the team. Such is the life of a Tribe fan.
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Boston doesn't buy their championships? Boston isn't as bad as the Yankees? Here, click on this: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1778397- When you guys bought your title in 2004, you started the season with the second highest payroll in baseball. 24 million dollars higher than the next team. - When you bought your title in 2007, again you had the second highest payroll in baseball. - Only this time it was 30 million dollars higher than the next team. Homegrown talent? Here's your 2004 lineup: 1. Jhonny Damon - Not a homegrown player, rather a superstar from a small market team. 2. Bill Mueller - Not a homegrown player 3. Manny Ramirez. - Yeah, he was yours, it's not like he played for you because the lack of a salary cap allowed you take him from the Indians. 4. David Ortiz - Not a homegrown player 5. Kevin Millar - Not a homegrown player - stolen from the Marlins 6. Gabe Kapler - Not a homegrown player, rather, purchased from the Rockies. 7. Jason Varitek - Oh my God! For once, Boston had to play by the same rules as everybody else! WOW! 8. Mark Bellhorn - Not a homegrown player 9.Pokey Reese - Stolen from the Reds. Again, not a homegrown player. Hmmmm. . . . maybe when you noted that Boston utilizes homegrown talent, you were talking about pitching. Let's take a look at your 2004 pitching staff. 1. Pedro Martinez - Taken from the Expos. - Not a homegrown player. 2. Curt Schilling - Another All Star from another team that is not a homegrown player. 3. Bronson Arroyo - Played professionally with another team before coming to Boston. 4. Derek Lowe - Played professionally with another team before coming to Boston. 5. Tim Wakefield - Played professionally with another team before coming to Boston. 2007 was more of the same thing. Players you bought( JD Drew, Dice K) or players that were traded to you by mid market teams that figured they'd get something for their All Stars before you bought them in free agency ( Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell) Homegrown talent.  Not like the Yankees Don't buy championships Don't take away from the integrity of the sport Dude, go buy another title.
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You really think we lost out on that trade? We WON HUGE! Ask anyone with a brain.
And Sizemore is still on the team, since you asked. Phillips would be if he bothered to figure anything out the first 4-5 times we gave him a chance. So he figured it out in Cincy....so what, it's not our fault. Some guys need a slap in the face to "get it". And as of right now, Cincy isn't really like him all that much too (He was suspened for not playing 100%).
Where's Bartolo Colon now? Washed up loser. The fact we have Sizemore AND the 4 prospects coming in today's Lee deal STILL makes it smart.
Had CC and Carmona not laid eggs in 2007, we'd have a WS title. That team was Sizemore's team. That wouldn't have been possible had we kept Colon.
Lost out? Not at all. But it certainly hasn't had the positive impact that it could have and should have. We got a couple great players in Lee and Sizemore. Lee is now gone, and Sizemore will be in 2012, and neither of them will have won anything in their time here in Cleveland.
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I'd rather follow a more fun to watch team though.
the good times feel even better when you are a fan through the bad times. older tribe fans know this to be true.
browns fans sorta know this to be true (at least we have a team to complain about...and hopefully an improving one)
i know i'm not going to change your mind though..
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trading players for more prospects who will turn into players who will be traded for more prospects who will turn into players who will be traded for more prospects who will turn into players who will be traded for more prospects who will turn into players who will be traded for more prospects who will turn into players who will be traded for more prospects who will turn into players who will be traded for more prospects who will turn into players who will be traded for more prospects who will turn into players who will be traded for more prospects.
which begs the question, which came first, the prospect, or the trade for the prospect?
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,936 |
Sure looks like this dry spell is going to continue for awhile. Gawd.  If the Dolans didn't understand that Cleveland is a football town and that, if you want people to come to baseball games, you have to do what it takes to field a team that is worth watching, they really shouldn't have bought the team. You have to spend money to make money. It doesn't work the other way. As for this particular debacle, you can't just give away two Cy Young winners and NOT get ANY MLB-ready pitching in return. We didn't get pitching with the Sabbathia deal. This deal should have been Drabek/Happ or bust. Period. I really don't understand Carrasco's rating because he's struggled at every minor league level except A ball. He's currently something like 6-9 with an ERA of 5-something in AAA. That's not MLB-ready. That's not even MLB-probable at this point. 
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
it's gonna be like the old days at the muni where it was "have your own section" night
Those were my favorite times with the Tribe.
The 90's were fun...after they re-tooled I was living in NYC and didn't really keep up...they stopped feeling like my team and haven't ever since.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
it's gonna be like the old days at the muni where it was "have your own section" night
you're right...what am i doing here.....we can go to games with grocery bags full of picnic supplies and just lounge them out across rows of seats.....get every foul ball and home run even if it's 2 sections over.....
#gmstrong
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,936
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,936 |
Quote:
preds for indians, straight up?
Now you're talking! Screw MLB... Let's get a REAL sport in here. 
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950 |
I lived through the late 60's & 70's I'll be a Indians fan long time.
Time to call up the young'ens see what they got.
i'm glad we traded Ben, he wasnt anything but a back-up outfielder.
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