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j/c,...I don't understand why he cannot make that decision today. Is ONE day of Tuesday practice the determining factor here ? I hope not,...
I believe that Mondays are a day off for the players, Tuesdays are like film study, treatment, coaches meetings and workouts - with Wednesday being the first actual practice day of the game week.... so it is more likely a case of there is just no reason to announce anything until then because nothing will be happening with that info until then anyway.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Derden, I'm not discussing this with you in a PM.
I don't care who the QB is, this team is awful. Peyton Manning would not be successful with this team.
Just watch the Baltimore game, BQ does nothing but check down. People kill him for it. DA comes in, does the same thing. Hmm... Perhaps no one is open downfield?
If that wasn't evidence enough, how about the 3 times DA did throw downfield, and it was in double/triple coverage?
Our receivers don't get open! A QB (whether it's Quinn or Anderson) can not be successful, with no one to throw the ball to!
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I'm telling you all Quinn does not trust his WR's... reason why he checks down to his RB's and TE all the time..
It's HIMSELF he doesn't trust. He checks-down because he's afraid, ergo his receivers pay the price.
Emotionally, Quinn is a midget right now. Teams have quickly learned he's got nothing going deep, so they can just sit on routes and take advantage not only of his lack of experience, but his lack of confidence.
Don't make excuses for Quinn. He wouldn't.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Well genius ..even though this like repeating history can you objectionably analize DA?
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 09/29/09 01:34 PM.
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if only we had a rookie who could do that (not being sarcastic). it shows you the talent always shines through. sure he threw 28 picks, which he learned from as a rookie but he also threw for over 3000 yards and also threw 26 tds, showing he belonged in the league.
I'll start with my typical disclaimer.. Peyton Manning is who he is and I'm not implying that EITHER of our QBs even belong in a conversation with him... but since we've injected our QBs into a conversation about him... Let me use him as a reason WHY the situations are totally different and WHY I keep rambling on about confidence and continuity...
Yes, those numbers prove that he could do certain things but what they tell me is that he had NO FEAR that he was going to lose his job.. none, nada, zilch. He knew that he was free to zing the ball around and try to make plays and that the staff was willing to put up with his failures to wait for his success...
Now, imagine Mr. Manning on this team... He's given the job shortly before the start of the season after a debacle of a competition (like every year here since about 2001) and whether it was spoken or not he realizes that he is on a very short leash and has only a couple games margin of error to "prove himself" or he could be yanked... and replaced with his back-up.... and over on the sidelines is either Mr. Untested Golden Boy or Mr. Exciting but Inconsistent... so one of those guys is on the bench with raucus very impatient fans in the stands all filled with inflated expectations... and onto the field tentatively walks Mr. Manning... and the crowd goes wild.... *roar* ....
His first game is at home and he puts up 21/37 for 302, 1 TD and 2 INTs... the crowd is not all that unhappy... we lost but not a bad showing by our new QB...
In his second game, on the road, he is 21/33 for 188, 1 TD and 3 INTs..... Ok, the crowd is still ok..
Third game is also on the road and he is 20/44 for 193, 0 TDs and 2 INTs..... Browns crowd is growing restless back at home... camera is showing the back-up with each INT... People are starting to call radio shows to question the decision to start Mr. Manning over Mr. Untested Golden Boy or Mr. Exciting but Inconsistent..
Fourth game, back at home, 19/32 for 309 yards, 1 TD and 3 INTs..... Fourth consecutive loss...
Fans are leaving the stadium, somebody does the math... Mr. Manning is 81/146 (55%)... YPA is under 7.... and he has 3 TDs and 10 INTs in 4 games..... Surely Mr. Untested Golden Boy or Mr. Exciting but Inconsistent could put up numbers like those if not better... One has the pedigree, the other did better than that 2 years ago... why are we continuing down this road? Who is going to start next week? Call the radio station on the way home... write a nasty article in the paper... see which QBs will be available in the draft next year.... 
I'm telling you, until we turn the reigns over to somebody that can play with no fear.. we will continue to fail.
yebat' Putin
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the problem is i don't think quinn was really afraid of getting pulled. mangini went through all of the training camp saying whoever he picked, he'd stick with. he made his decision and kept quinn in. after two bad games, mangini is asked if he considered putting DA in and he replied with the same saying he's sticking with his choice. by all accounts, quinn seemed surprised/shocked that he wasn't playing in teh 2nd half of the ravens game, equally was anderson surprised that he was going in.
unless mangini said something to quinn internally like "if you can't complete some better passes to our receivers, you're sitting" which i doubt but can see, i don't see how quinn could feel his job is not secure, given how much the fanbase still likes him.
ultimately, i wouldn't care if we lost 4 in a row nor would i care too much about the ints and lack of yardage as long as the game was played the right way by the qb. that means, playing a complete game where you make the connections you should and make the reads you should. the ints we were all ready to deal with because that does play into the experience factor, even if he's supposed to be a smart qb. it's that the passing attack he ran was just so inept that his benching was justified.
while i may not have watched manning's first 4 games, i would be shocked if he played the game the way quinn played his first 2.5. that's the main difference. where the two schools of opinion come in now is why quinn is playing the way he is. some think he's scared and doesn't have the support and others, like myself, think that was his game all along from the day he stepped into berea. whether i'm right or wrong, that explains why i feel the way i do about quinn and why i'm ready to close that book. that's also why it's my opinion. i'll argue it to death but that's what i see what i saw him play from 07 till now. if i'm right, it's best to close the book now but if i'm not, and we stick with him (i'll support that decision) and he proves me wrong, i'll be more than happy to eat my words.
that said, let's put this in perspective. charlie frye's first rookie start, 266 yards 2 tds, browns rookie record setting 136.7 passer rating against a good jacksonville defense. this works both ways as it's clear that performance in the first season may not indicate where the qbs are going (otherwise frye is the mvp and manning a 3rd qb for the raiders) but my point is it's not asking too much to make the right completions and throw tds. hopefully one of our guys will do that soon.
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He wants to go the Romeo route but can't find a three sided coin!
Man, that made my day.
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I've heard several QB analysts (Marino, Simms, etc) say things like, "sometimes taking a struggling QB out mid-game, is nothing more than trying to inject a little life for that particular game."
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I don't care who the QB is, this team is awful. Peyton Manning would not be successful with this team.
Just watch the Baltimore game, BQ does nothing but check down. People kill him for it. DA comes in, does the same thing. Hmm... Perhaps no one is open downfield?
If that wasn't evidence enough, how about the 3 times DA did throw downfield, and it was in double/triple coverage?
Our receivers don't get open! A QB (whether it's Quinn or Anderson) can not be successful, with no one to throw the ball to!
Why do you continue to scream this at the top of your lungs? Can you provide some proof that this is true? WRs will not be open every single play, but they will not be fully covered every single play either. That's common sense.
I'm assuming you watched the game. What do you think is the most logical conclusion? a) that the WRs were fully covered every single play? or b) that Quinn was too quick to check down, playing too fast, and not letting plays develop?
Seriously, every WR was covered every single play? Give me a break.
Tell you what you should do ... take that money that you want to spend to take me on in an IQ challenge (what a joke - you don't know me from Adam) and invest in a monthly membership to the OBR ... some interesting little tidbits on Quinn.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Why did DA check down so often then? And when he did go downfield, why was it in double/triple coverage? I don't need an account at the OBR. I watch the games, and form my own opinions. I don't need someone else to form them for me 
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I've heard several QB analysts (Marino, Simms, etc) say things like, "sometimes taking a struggling QB out mid-game, is nothing more than trying to inject a little life for that particular game."
i have heard the same and have no problem with that. as i said from sunday till now, i noticed some new life in defense and st because of that move.
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It's just another source of information to use when formulating your opinion. They see more and they hear more. They are closer to the team than you or anyone else on this board. They study the team because that is their job. Doesn't mean they are right, but it's a source of information nonetheless and can shed some light on things that are not always easy to tell just by watching games.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I agree somewhat...
I hated the "competition" from day one and the longer it went on - hated it even more. You got a new offense, new players The HEAD of the offense is the QB. There should be no "competition" either you know or you don't know. The team has to rally around the QB and get clicking...we waited for several days before our opener... didn't like that at all.
Ok, he brought in DA for a spark to possibly ignite the stagnant offense. For a series or two - I thought it was a good move and possibly the BQ era would be over but that changed quick enough. One good drive for 3 points 
OK, either you go and stick with DA from hence forth.. or you claim looking for that spark and it was a little pfft - like a dud M-80.
You climb back on the BQ horse and say we ride him all the way.
Instead we get Wednesday...which means INDECISION. Which is anti-leadership.
But sadly the dillema simply might be we just do not have a QB. Still that falls on their heads as well cause we had the shot at Sanchez and I know they knew he was the real deal but for some reason they thought they had the real deal on the team.
Again got to stick with BQ in hope that he progresses and finally gets comfortable in our offense which he definitely is not. He has to get Cocky and just play the game. Like DA does but as we can see with DA we don't get much.
The handling of the entire QB is a MESS.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Still that falls on their heads as well cause we had the shot at Sanchez and I know they knew he was the real deal but for some reason they thought they had the real deal on the team.
U know I always come and have my say about draft day..I said the only QB I would have taken was Sanchez..but how could they not look at Brady and see if he's it?
Can you imagine the uproar if they had taken MS and either kept BQ/DAor traded one without looking at them?
Plus that trade was too hard to bypass..getting extra picks plus some vets..now I throw my disclaimer in it by saying I would have drafted differently but I know I would have made that trade also..so I will not rip KoMan for that..can't do it.
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I agree...and have said almost the same thing.
They had to see what Quinn had....and why he started the season.
he had to start the season. Had DA started and played well, we may not have seen BQ again..
These guys had to find out what they had..and drafting a top QB last draft would have sent the wrong message on many different levels. The BQ crowd would have gone nuts, and anybody who says differently is just talking.
Shoot...I am not a BQ guy and would have had a problem with that as I always agreed we needed to know what we have.
Just a added thought...part of the reason DA probably starts this week is so Quinn isn't announced to a chorus of boo's. His already fragile state of mind wouldn't be helped by that.
Bring him in if DA stinks up the joint, and maybe get him back in while on the road....if he doesn't turn it around there, he's done.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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First, what makes anyone so sure that starting Anderson won't lead to a chorus of boos (I bet it does, or at least we won't be able to tell the boos for Anderson from the boos for the rest of the team).
If we really value putting our best chance to win (now) on the field, then the logical solution (based on current roster talent) would be to just start Cribbs at QB and run a modified wildcat remembering that Cribbs was actually a college QB (something Romeo and Mangini seem to forget). Sure, we'd still likely lose 10+ games, but at least they'd be fun to watch.
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Neither QB should be boo'd when announced....I'm not going there ..they still need to see what Quinn has..and if they have to go in a different direction next season..
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the problem is i don't think quinn was really afraid of getting pulled. mangini went through all of the training camp saying whoever he picked, he'd stick with. he made his decision and kept quinn in. after two bad games, mangini is asked if he considered putting DA in and he replied with the same saying he's sticking with his choice.
I know what Mangini said.. I also know what he did.. which was drag out the QB competition to the final week and then let the decision leak out instead of making an announcement.. and stating all along that it was just too close to make a call... What would that tell you? That would tell me that this wasn't a decisive victory and that if DA is only a fraction of a point worse in the decision making process that I am on a short leash... human nature tells you that... then there is the fan/media input, which nobody can control... I have a hard time feeling like Quinn ever felt secure in the job.
Now add that to what he saw his first 2 years.. yes it wasn't under Mangini.. but Frye getting yanked and traded in week 1.. Anderson playing relatively well in '07 and still getting booed and people still clamoring for him to be yanked... Hearing constantly how Anderson wasn't the guy because he made too many mistakes... If your boss fired the guy that held your position and promoted you... and you knew he got fired because there were too many math errors in his reports, what would you? You'd check your math multiple times and probably still feel uneasy when you turned it in because you might have missed something.... right? If the QB ahead of you gets booed and yanked for making mistakes, what are you going to do? Throw underneath, hold the ball too long, take no chances... it's human nature.
This goes for both BQ and DA.. this is not a pro-BQ argument.. this is a pro-Cleveland Browns argument.. until we turn the reigns over to somebody and prepare ourselves for the mistakes and support that person through those mistakes, we are going to remain on this carousel.
Look, if it's DA, fine it's DA.. I can live with that. Trade BQ for a loaf of bread... but if it's BQ, then trade DA and let's move on. Neither one of them is ever going to achieve their full potential, whatever that is, while looking over their shoulder... Ain't going to happen.
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while i may not have watched manning's first 4 games, i would be shocked if he played the game the way quinn played his first 2.5.
That was never my point... my point was that the Cleveland Browns fan base looks for reasons to fail people like I've never seen.... I don't care who the QB was, who the back-up was, or what the situation was.. any QB, ANY QB, that started his first 4 games in Cleveland 0-4 with 3 TDs and 10 INTs would get booed and there would be calls for him to be replaced... You know it as well as I do.
yebat' Putin
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Jeff Garcia was just release...maybe we should get him?
you had a good run Hank.
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you're absolutely right. it gets to me too but i thought you meant people on this board. that said, the fanbase will always look to the next guy even if the original guy could be good. hell, this is the same fanbase that called for luke mccown and ken dorsey.
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... Can you imagine the uproar if they had taken MS and either kept BQ/DAor traded one without looking at them?
Plus that trade was too hard to bypass..getting extra picks plus some vets..now I throw my disclaimer in it by saying I would have drafted differently but I know I would have made that trade also..so I will not rip KoMan for that..can't do it.
FINALLY, you offer something I can agree with 100 %, instead of the usual 54 %.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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you're absolutely right. it gets to me too but i thought you meant people on this board. that said, the fanbase will always look to the next guy even if the original guy could be good. hell, this is the same fanbase that called for luke mccown and ken dorsey.
Which makes it even more important that the coaches and the team rally around that guy... as I said, you can't control the media and you can't control the fans.. granted the media will play to the fans, if the fans show support, the media will realize that a real negative article isn't going to go over well.. but I digress... The coaches and the players and the organization as a whole need to know, "THIS IS THE GUY"... then it won't matter as much what the know-it-all fans are saying.
And EM has already undercut that this year... he yanked his QB in week 3... now we know that in his eyes, neither is THE GUY.. because one beat the other in a competition but then the winner got yanked in week 3... ergo, he doesn't have confidence in either one of them.. so then why should the players?
yebat' Putin
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Which tempts me to think it would almost be "better" if we just plain got rid of one of the QBs right now (either via trade or waive). Say to the QB we keep "you're the guy, plain and simple, and now there's no one for you to worry about taking your spot."
Would it be effective? I have no idea. But, like I've said in other threads, I'm taking this season as a "evaluate talent for 2010" season.
I'd start one QB, release the other, and start putting in our rookies and young guys. Essentially treat this season as one long preseason.
But, that could be just me being pessimistic about the season as a whole.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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And EM has already undercut that this year... he yanked his QB in week 3... now we know that in his eyes, neither is THE GUY.. because one beat the other in a competition but then the winner got yanked in week 3... ergo, he doesn't have confidence in either one of them.. so then why should the players?
well i think it's the other way around. i think mangini sensed the other players didn't believe in quinn so he put DA in.
that said, you're right, this sheds plenty of light as to how mangini felt about both guys. who plays this week could be very telling.
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Which tempts me to think it would almost be "better" if we just plain got rid of one of the QBs right now (either via trade or waive). Say to the QB we keep "you're the guy, plain and simple, and now there's no one for you to worry about taking your spot."
Would it be effective?
It would have been more effective if we had done it in July... but yea, I think it could be effective. The risk obviously is that you trade away the wrong one.. but that's always been the risk... The risk now is that both of them are either ruined or set back years in their development...
Worst case, the one you keep just never seems to get it.. then at least at the end of the year you know where you stand.
yebat' Putin
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I guess it could be considered a win/win (from a morbid point of view). You keep the guy and he turns out ok, then you have your QB. You keep the guy and he continues to suck, you know you have to get another QB and destroys any question in the future.
Not an ideal thing, not in the least. Just throwing it out there.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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The handling of the entire QB is a MESS.
Yup....pulling Quinn sunday was not a rational football move. We were beyond out of that game, and you were playing an extremely good defense.
It was a desperate act, by a desperate coach. His act has utterly failed, just about everything he's touched this offseason has ended badly.
The smart thing is ride Quinn out, while he may not be any better, you get the whole season to see if it clicks. Brady Quinn has to know this, know the fact that the rest of the season is his, that may help stablize him a bit, so hes not so afraid to make a mistake.
If it were me, I would make it clear that this is BQ's team for this season, he doesnt need to look over his back, and that he gives us the best chance to win. Get behind, let the team know who the guy is, and most importantly make sure Quinn knows that he doesnt need to play scared.
I have my reservations that Quinn will ever be anything, but we have to find out, and pulling the guy after 3 games, with this offense, wasnt a good move. Find out about Quinn, as we found out about DA, you just can't go off 3 games, its insane.
Mangini just continues to make incredible dumb decisions, and it just keeps snowballing. My money is on that he'll name DA the starter, for this week, and then more "wait and see".
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My money is on that he'll name DA the starter, for this week, and then more "wait and see".
I agree, unfortunately. I had a feeling when we had this whole QB competition that we wouldn't have a clear cut winner at the end of it. So, we'd run into this cluster that we have now.
I have a feeling we're going to see DA this weekend. Then BQ will come in when DA is struggling. Then next week, we'll have to wait until Wednesday to find out who is going to start against Buffalo.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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well unfortunately, one of two things was supposed to happen in the preseason
1) quinn show he's what he was ready to be the guy
2) DA plays head and shoulders above quinn to justify mangini going with him
neither of those things happened and this is what we have now.
i've also said to not forget the two escalators in quinn's contract. one is at 40% of the snaps for 1-2 million and the other is at 70% of the snaps for another 5 million or so. you can bet mangini does not want to pay those for what quinn has done. i don't know the nature of the escalator but i believe, if it's hit, it raises quinn's salaries for the future seasons too and that helps kill trade value (naturally the team trading for him would probably resign him but it's still another hurdle). you can also bet that, since we had to pay DA anyways and don't want to incur more cost, DA has a higher likeliness of staying in now.
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Your nuts, escalators in Quinns contract has nothing to do with this....EM is now in desperation mode, showing alittle promise is all hes after, or he wont be here next year to pay Quinns escalators.
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they all care about cost. that's why he tried to get players like tucker to take a pay cut. some did, some didn't, but they were still cut. if quinn were a good player, yes they don't care about the paycut but like any organization/company/business, especialling when the financial times aren't as good, they will care about minimizing cost.
anytime a player cost more, they take up space that could go to paying someone else. it's always a balance game so you can bet anything that mangini and kok are fully aware. it DOES play into their decisions. i'm not arguing it as a determining factor, as much as another layer of consideration in the overall evaluation of the situation. if quinn continues to suck and they see they need to pay him another 5 million with another game start, it's more justification for not playing him.
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Your nuts, escalators in Quinns contract has nothing to do with this....EM is now in desperation mode, showing alittle promise is all hes after, or he wont be here next year to pay Quinns escalators.
I agree. I think EM would be a lot happier to pay Quinn his escalators, because it might mean he'd come around from out of the funk.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,275
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,275 |
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anytime a player cost more, they take up space that could go to paying someone else. it's always a balance game so you can bet anything that mangini and kok are fully aware. it DOES play into their decisions. i'm not arguing it as a determining factor, as much as another layer of consideration in the overall evaluation of the situation. if quinn continues to suck and they see they need to pay him another 5 million with another game start, it's more justification for not playing him.
+1
The Browns would love for BQ to produce and "earn" those escalators...they do not want him to get more money because he was the lesser of two evils.
The impact of those escalators is significant if BQ is not going to be a bonafide NFL starter.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 478
1st String
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1st String
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 478 |
I am sorry, but the escalators mean nothing to the discussion. All the escalators do is change Quinss base salary for next year. If Quinn continues to play this badly, you simply cut him and they go away. Problem solved.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 560
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: May 2007
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,550
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,550 |
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First, what makes anyone so sure that starting Anderson won't lead to a chorus of boos (I bet it does, or at least we won't be able to tell the boos for Anderson from the boos for the rest of the team).
It will.....did I say it wouldn't?? The BQ crowd has already set that precedent.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 765
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 765 |
The scary thing about the whole QB fiasco is that we have been down this road before. As fans, as an organization and RL (because the buck stops with him) still let EM think that he was smarter than everybody by saying it was going to be an open competition and that it was best for the team. I doubt EM thought it would proceed like it has but when the word first came out about an open competition my brothers and I were already predicting a debacle.
The fact that Lerner didn't telll EM that the only thing he couldnt do was perpetuate more of a QB debacle than was already here is just baffling to me.
I dont think Lerner is a bad person by any stretch of the imagination but to say he even remotely understands what it takes to be an NFL owner is unfortunately a joke.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Oh, oh, that is so clever.
btw, you'll need to either credit the source or provide a link to that now that you've said it came from a website or that amusing little quip will likely be deleted. Just for future reference, it's in the rules.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
He quoted hte PD although I don't think it came from there. I read it last night and laughed.
It is amusing.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 172
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 172 |
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I don't care who the QB is, this team is awful. Peyton Manning would not be successful with this team.
Just watch the Baltimore game, BQ does nothing but check down. People kill him for it. DA comes in, does the same thing. Hmm... Perhaps no one is open downfield?
If that wasn't evidence enough, how about the 3 times DA did throw downfield, and it was in double/triple coverage?
Our receivers don't get open! A QB (whether it's Quinn or Anderson) can not be successful, with no one to throw the ball to!
Why do you continue to scream this at the top of your lungs? Can you provide some proof that this is true? WRs will not be open every single play, but they will not be fully covered every single play either. That's common sense.
I'm assuming you watched the game. What do you think is the most logical conclusion? a) that the WRs were fully covered every single play? or b) that Quinn was too quick to check down, playing too fast, and not letting plays develop?
Seriously, every WR was covered every single play? Give me a break.
Tell you what you should do ... take that money that you want to spend to take me on in an IQ challenge (what a joke - you don't know me from Adam) and invest in a monthly membership to the OBR ... some interesting little tidbits on Quinn.
Seriously. Do you think any defense would have trouble covering our WR's? Especially when we played against 2 top 5 defenses so far. Besides. I don't know what kind of TV you have. But you can't see on TV whether the WR's are open down field or not. Your just speculating like the rest of us.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mangini: QB decision on Wednesday
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