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Funny thing is, Harrison was the one that was avoiding contact and running out of bounds....
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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My question is this: do we finally know what we have in Quinn? Is that debate over?
I sure hope both Quinn and Anderson are not on the sideline next year. I'm not too concerned with a debate if Anderson plays lights out because he doesn't fit Holmgren's typical QB profile. Quinn is more MH's style, but he just doesn't have the talent or mental capacity to start at the pro level. I've heard people say they feel sorry for him. The only thing I feel sorry for is wasting 2 draft picks. Hopefully he can turn things around, I just hope it clicks on some other team.
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The debates are never over. To this day, even though he had 5 years under center, there are still debates about Couch. There are still debates about Frye, even though he's understood by most to be a complete stiff. There are those that still believe in Anderson.
So is the debate over about Quinn? Not even close. Some feel that he's just not any good and should have shown great improvement by this point in his career, while others feel that he should get a couple of more years of uncontested play as the #1 guy before we can even begin to form an opinion. So no matter how it plays out, the debate will rage on. All we really know is that Quinn has been a dissapointment. The only debate is whether it's because he isn't very good or if it's because the parts around him are questionable.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Quinn is more MH's style, but he just doesn't have the talent or mental capacity to start at the pro level.
I have to disagree with you there.. Quinn is very very smart, and has all whatever mental capacity a QB needs. His knock on him is his accuracy past 15+ yards.
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I think it's a combination of both. Quinn was shaken up early and hard the beginning of the season and the surrounding cast's performance was suspect. Quinn seams to play like a scared H.S. sophomore starting on the varsity squad.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quinn is more MH's style, but he just doesn't have the talent or mental capacity to start at the pro level.
I have to disagree with you there.. Quinn is very very smart, and has all whatever mental capacity a QB needs. His knock on him is his accuracy past 15+ yards.
So constantly throwing into double coverage and not recognizing coverage schemes doesn't fall into the mental part of the game? Whether or not he can explain Einsteins theory of relativity or have the right things to say in front of the camera doesn't define football intelligence. 
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And his ability to stand in the pocket and be brave under pressure. That was a knock coming out of college, and we saw it last week.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
The debates are never over. To this day, even though he had 5 years under center, there are still debates about Couch. There are still debates about Frye, even though he's understood by most to be a complete stiff. There are those that still believe in Anderson.
So is the debate over about Quinn? Not even close. Some feel that he's just not any good and should have shown great improvement by this point in his career, while others feel that he should get a couple of more years of uncontested play as the #1 guy before we can even begin to form an opinion. So no matter how it plays out, the debate will rage on. All we really know is that Quinn has been a dissapointment. The only debate is whether it's because he isn't very good or if it's because the parts around him are questionable.
And I don't think the debates will ever end until we have a team that a QB can succeed with, or at least leave out any doubt whether it's the QB or the surrounding talent. 
Hopefully MH fixes that first and puts us in position that we can plug in any QB and still be competitive, plug in a good QB and be playoff contenders, plug in a great QB and be SB contenders and/or champs.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Legend
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Quote:
The debates are never over. To this day, even though he had 5 years under center, there are still debates about Couch. There are still debates about Frye, even though he's understood by most to be a complete stiff. There are those that still believe in Anderson.
So is the debate over about Quinn? Not even close. Some feel that he's just not any good and should have shown great improvement by this point in his career, while others feel that he should get a couple of more years of uncontested play as the #1 guy before we can even begin to form an opinion. So no matter how it plays out, the debate will rage on. All we really know is that Quinn has been a dissapointment. The only debate is whether it's because he isn't very good or if it's because the parts around him are questionable.
I want Holcomb back.
It was Holcomb's pass that dropcutt dropped in the playoff game against Pittsburgh; that if caught would have given us a first down and the game was essentially over. He makes the catch, we move on and go on to win the Super Bowl!
Okay, a slight bit of revisionist history with some delusions of grandeur mixed in for flavor but as you say, the debate will never end; regardless. 
#GMSTRONG
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Several people on the board (myself included) said that they wanted to see what Quinn would bring after he was renamed the starter in midseason. I said you could excuse choppy play before this season (due to changing offensive systems, surrounding cast, and his role as "spot-starter"). I gave him a pass on those first three games because of his surrounding cast and the defenses he was up against (Denver was rolling back then). Since regaining the starting job, he's had some bright spots, and overall he's been better, but I think he's shown us enough to say he's not the guy. That being said, I kind of hope he's starting at the beginning of next year. If nothing else, I see BQ as a perfect "transition" QB. He'll hold down the fort until we've built a legitimate football team around him, and then we can plug in a QB. To be honest, I'm also hoping that he can still turn it on. Probably won't happen, but I can 
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Practice Squad
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And his ability to stand in the pocket and be brave under pressure. That was a knock coming out of college, and we saw it last week.
Quinn gets rid of the ball too quickly. I have yet to see him do more than check on his first option and chuck it. Unless the play is designed to go deep, defenses know he's not looking for it otherwise and cover short.
Let it also be said this is his second season ending injury in 2 years. Horrible QB or not, now you have to question his durability.
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Regarding his comments about that "three years worth of starts" BS,
Toad...just to remind you what Holmgren said when asked about QBs...
Q: Mentioned quarterbacks there. When you watch Brady Quinn what do you see?
A: I haven't watched him very much. He's a local guy, a great college player at Notre Dame, lot of success. Derek Anderson had a really fine season, I remember him having a great game against us. You have these two guys. This I know, juggling two guys, becomes hard for both of them and team. Not optimum situation that way. In Brady's case, he was a high draft pick. You can count the number of games he played, by third year if guy has played and played in one system, you know what you have. He isn't close approaching three years playing even though he's in his third year. I'd have to study and learn so much more about both young men make good answer.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Legend
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That's two strikes on BQ; hope he is OK. Hope DA isn't DOA. I found out that I kinda like this winning thing. Expecting the Mystery Man Ratliff anyone? Spelling is phonetic. Cribbs might be interesting. . . . . 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Ugh, if something happen DA goes down now, this would be two years in a row that we finish the year with our 3rd or worse string QB...
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Can you not be quiet? Shaddap already, The football gods might hear you.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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All Pro
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As I mentioned before, I was really hoping for something to click in Quinn's head over the last part of this season. People are going to say that you won't be able to judge due to the injury, but I stand by what I said when he took over the starting job again. You evaluate him for the rest of the season to see where he is. His season is over, and he really didn't wow anyone. I give him props for finishing the game on what turned out to be a pretty nasty injury, but his throws were generally poor all game (before the injury). I'm bummed, I was really hoping he would show something. I'm bummed because, once again, we drafted nothing more than a superb backup QB. I'm bummed that another of our high picks doesn't seem to be panning out. More than anything, I'm bummed to see Anderson under center again, but that's a whole 'nother debate.
Looking forward to next season, I'm really hoping we don't draft another quarterback. Maybe bring in a free agent and have a QB shootout with Quinn (I don't want it to even sound like the "competition" disaster from this year). We have too many other needs to ruin another drafted QB.
The guy can't throw a deep ball....at all. He HAS to lead the league in most passes over 20 yards going out of bounds.
Unless somehow he learns or acquires the touch to throw a deep ball every once in a while, he has no career in the NFL at all.
I was pulling for the guy, I really was. But everytime he threw a deep ball out of bounds, I lost more an more hope for this guy.
Holmgren knows our franchise qb isn't on this roster.
![[Linked Image from thumb0.webshots.net]](http://thumb0.webshots.net/t/34/34/0/73/58/2594073580091396520Miskbz_th.jpg)
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All Pro
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Quote:
Quote:
Quinn is more MH's style, but he just doesn't have the talent or mental capacity to start at the pro level.
I have to disagree with you there.. Quinn is very very smart, and has all whatever mental capacity a QB needs. His knock on him is his accuracy past 5 + yards.
FTFY
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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I agree. Besides getting a coach, prriorty number 2 will be to aquire the quarterback. I would love to have Kevin Kolb over a rookie. Been in the offense for a few years, but I don't see philly giving him up with Mcnabb's age.
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BEST CASE SCENERIO...
DA comes in this week and lights it up with the vertical passing game. Al Davis falls in love with his arm and trades us his first round pick.
I can dream can't I?
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I believe that the only question that remains about who are QB next year will be is, what the draft pick order will be.
I'm not so sure that on this team you draft a QB and immediately make him your starter. It really gets me how quickly some expect players to become impact. Some players do. Some take a little time. Most take a little time. The situation and circumstances in which they enter into the NFL has one hell of a lot to do with how well they do and how quickly.
Sure, some are more talented than others. Some had a head start in college coming from a big program. Some struggle for a while and for some the light never does come on. But this is the ultimate team sport and it's mightily tough to judge any player coming into a train wreck like the Browns. But still there are fans who expect a young player to light it up in spite of the talent surrounding them.
Quinn has started less than a season. He has struggled a lot. Not so much with his head but with his throws. That is on him pretty much. But whatever it is it is correctable because he has never thrown a ball as bad as he's sometimes done this season. Pathetic is a good description yet he's never been pathetic in his career until now. Suspiciously inaccurate at times, yes, but not pathetic. He's had a few good games and has shown that he can make the throws. But it's been inconsistent. As inconsistent as the rest of the team. I'm in the corner that says he still needs some time and believe, given the state of the team, the current roster and the time it will take to rebuild this roster, the time is there to continue to evaluate him.
We'll see.
No one knows what Holmgren will do. I doubt he's studied the team or any of the players so much as some think. I believe his study has been of the organization to get a grip on wether or not he stands a chance to rebuild this team or if there are too many obstacles in his way before he agreed to take the job. He needed to know Randy Lerner and gauge if Lerner was going to allow him to operate his way or if he were going to dictate to him. Big difference.
Those things are far more important than who's on the roster before the job is his. It would make no sense for him to have studied the roster, even the QB's, before getting the organizatonal stuff straight. Because it really doesn't matter who is on the roster before the job is his. He'll be rebuilding that regardless of where it stands now.
In other words, the quality of the roster or of the QB's specifically were not the deciding factor in his agreeing to be President of the Cleveland Browns. The organization and the owner was the most important thing up until now. Now that that is out of the way and he's taken the job he can focus on the roster because now that is the important thing.
Now it's his job. For a guy like Holmgren it doesn't matter where he starts, with his experience he should finish well. The worse the roster is the longer it will take but that wasn't his concern in the beginning.
#gmstrong
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Just my $0.02 worth ......
We have 2 flawed QBs ... and a lot of offensive questions.
Would 2 more games have decided anything regarding Quinn? Probably not. Will 2 games decide anything regarding Anderson? Probably not.
I suspect that we'll probably keep one and trade/release the other next year. No big deal which is which ... because that guy probably won't be "the guy" for long.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Ya can't actually flip a coin this time but there's truth enough in what you say that I wouldn't argue one way or the other.
#gmstrong
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Second year in row to end up on IR....the beginning of a trend.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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The same was said about Jeff Faine. He has not been hurt since he left Cleveland.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Quinn seams to play like a scared H.S. sophomore starting on the varsity squad.
Yeah, that's exactly how he plays. 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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It's nice to be back in Ohio for Christmas
Only thing I don't like is the rampant Homerism on the talk-shows. I've heard about Sam R's quotes via this board, but I've never heard them in person. My God............His nose is so far up Quinn's butt I bet he can tell me what Brady had for breakfast  I haven't heard so much excuse-making since LeslieDawg and his fawning over Tim Couch! Grossi is only a touch less transparent, but not by much.
I get some of the reasons used to explain Quinn's struggles. They make sense. Campbell has had some of the exact same ones. However, each guy has to carry his own cross for mistakes, whether that's pathetically thrown balls beyond the 15-yard range or screen passes thrown too hard for INT's, each QB can be judged based on their own play.
I gotta say......I like being a Browns fan, but not being subjected to all the local Homerism. I find such crap comical when down in Texas because I hate the Cowboys  but I find it less entertaining when it's my own team these boneheads are talking about.
Another example: Talk that Mangini is making it tougher on Holmgren to fire him.  What........We beat an iffy Steelers team when the weather was the great equalizer, where Ariens inexplicably chose to throw the ball 40 times in terrible wind conditions, then beat a pathetic Chiefs team because of Josh Cribbs' 2 return TD's and some 694 yards from Harrison, nevermind the pathetic QB play as well as a horrid defensive effort.
Yeah, Mangini has made it really tough to fire him. Horsepoop!
Buncha Homers
As for Quinn, I do feel sorry for him. He BADLY needed these last two games in order to try and secure a job next year but he won't get it. In fact, if Derek Anderson does the unlikely, which is to come in and light things up, it'll make Quinn's struggles look that much more appalling. He's still early enough in his career where he would have likely improved some more, even if I don't believe it would be enough. Granted, Quinn made his own bed with his holdout, but that doesn't mean I can't feel bad for a busted foot on a scramble.
Might as well look to next year with Quinn, where it's unlikely he'll be handed the starters job. At best, Quinn will have to compete with a high draft pick or veteran QB, and that's a bad sign for a guy hoping to establish his place on the team. It means he will only likely get one more chance to take the job, and if he doesn't grasp it by the cajones, he'll be on his way out of town, unless he lucks back into the gig the way Anderson has this past season.
Side note: I can see where people would think Quinn is better suited to the WCO, specifically because his accuracy is fine on shorter stuff, but to think it will turn his career around is flawed, wishful thinking. Holmgren won't be patient with a guy entering his 4th year in the league. He'll have to crap or get off the pot.
Goodluck Quinn. Go prove me wrong. We need you to be more than what you've shown.......
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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one theory i've thrown around and wanted to see if you thought there was any merit to it.....
that Quinn is looking worse this year from last year and college mechanically....and that like a mechanics broken pitcher, he might just need a coach to re-work his entire throwing motion this offseason to stop his bad tendencies (like arching back and throwing off his heels).
I know you generally think QBs are accurate or they are not....but I think there might be some merit in it (or perhaps it's just misguided hope)
#gmstrong
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The same was said about Jeff Faine. He has not been hurt since he left Cleveland.
September 14, 2009
Buccaneers will fill Jeff Faine's void by re-signing Mahan
The Bucs have already contacted recently-released Sean Mahan and have informed him of their intentions to re-sign him in the wake of center Jeff Faine's triceps injury.
Faine could miss as much as six weeks, leaving the Bucs thin on the interior of their offensive line.
Link
Sep 18, 2009: Triceps injury, out.
Feb 29, 2008: Signed as an unrestricted free agent by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
Oct 26, 2007: Pectoral muscle injury, out.
Apr 29, 2006: Acquired from the Cleveland Browns.
Apr 29, 2006: Cleveland Browns traded Jeff Faine and 2nd round selection in 2006 (Roman Harper) to the New Orleans Saints for a 2nd round selection in 2006 (D'Qwell Jackson).
#GMSTRONG
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The problem is that Quinn hasn't played enough to "screw up his mechanics". The guy has less than a season's worth of starts under his belt.
I think that Toad did hit one thing exactly on the head, and that it appears that Quinn does not handle pressure well at all. Even the thought of pressure is enough to throw him off.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Buncha Homers
You caught them in a moment like the rest of us, a little giddy over the back-to-back wins, especially one over the Steelers. Really, they are not always such homers. You should have heard them earlier during the blackest period of the season. There wasn't much holding back or sugar coating back then.
Sam has been one of Quinn's biggest supporters since Training Camp '07. DA's big season quieted him for awhile. He was also a big Braylon fan. He just couldn't see getting rid of your only receiver if you really want to win. His take was to man-up and coach the player instead of tossing him because you lack the confidence or ability to do so.
They've been extremely harsh on Mangini in the past. But you can't beat a dead horse, or a lame duck for that matter, too awful much. I think what we're seeing with the, "tougher on Holmgren to fire him", comments is the laying off of the guy because they know he's gone and there's no sense in rubbing salt in the wound.
Doug Deiken now, does have a bit of homerism in him. In their predictions his record is the same as the team's record. Of course, since he's a former Browns LT he picks them to win every time. Sam is actually ahead in that with a good record though I forget what it is; about the oppposite of Deiken's.
I wouldn't normally just stand up for these guys and their takes regardless, but I've seen the expressed disgust aplenty as this season wore on. Hell, I thought Doug and Sam were about to come to blows at one point when everything was at it's worst.
I don't know how long you plan on sticking around but on the same STO channel, a day or two after the game, there's a show called, "The Browns Red Zone". It's about a 3 hour, call-in format. Sometimes the same three host that show as well. Because of the length of that show they get to express themselves more in depth and it's a bit more interesting. Sometimes though that show is hosted by Andre Knott. He usually has Mary Kay as his guest.
Screw Texas. Stick around. There's a couple of games and a lot of snow left to come. You know you miss it. 
#gmstrong
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I guess it's back to old scatter-armed Moose from Scapoose. Should be interesting, in a train-wreck sort of way. If only DA had even a decent set of receivers to throw to. 
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Mangini would have to win out to make it tough on Holmgren...hard to overlook a 4 game win streak to finish the season and the first against our RIVALS in 7 years.
With a more than average banged up team. Entire middle of the D out. Now the starting QB out.
My biggest fear. Holmgren's memory of DA against the Seahawks in 07 one of his best and accurate games.
DA just might light it up these last two games.
And we know how well he will look in practice - gosh this guy is like a Svengali and get coaches in a Stupor trance...enough to ruin yet another season!!
LOOK AT THE TAPE!!!
At this point now that we have Holmgren and we know his background has HC n QB as the two biggest investments into a program. I sure hope we get Sam Bradford.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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eo, if we do go QB in the first round, and I still am not in favor of it, but if we do... I like Bradford as well.
yebat' Putin
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I don't want to either...if we had a Franchise QB here.
Can anyone make a case for either QB being such a franchise QB...only thing possible is for dawgs to come up with reasons/excuses why they are struggling not why they ARE THE FRANCHISE GUY! In lieu of that, not out of my wish...but just following the old adage. You cannot pass on a franchise QB prospect in the draft if you do not have one!
I sure as heck wish we had one! I'd love to make a top investment into the D for 2010 impact. I doubt we get one signed on time and one who can WIN the starting position with knowledge and poise over the 2 QBs that we do have so that it would be a pick that will sit on the bench and learn.
I hope if DA does light it up...that only means we get a good draft pick for him Or we take Bradford and trade BQ to Denver. Let DA start for a season and when Dr. Jekyll takes hold bring in the kid mid-season to be our starter for like FOREVER!
JMHWish
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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one theory i've thrown around and wanted to see if you thought there was any merit to it.....
that Quinn is looking worse this year from last year and college mechanically....and that like a mechanics broken pitcher, he might just need a coach to re-work his entire throwing motion this offseason to stop his bad tendencies (like arching back and throwing off his heels).
I know you generally think QBs are accurate or they are not....but I think there might be some merit in it (or perhaps it's just misguided hope)
Yeah, I should clarify something for you, Logo.
I think QB's are naturally accurate or not, but that opinion is based on a fundamental that says all things are equal so that comparisions can be fairly made. So my feelings with Quinn are that even when things are right, he's always going to struggle with NFL throws.
Now, regarding mechanics, yeah, his are bad. VERY bad. The thing is that he wasn't this magically sound QB in college. He did all this stuff back then too. The only difference is that in college you can get away with it. You can't at this level.
Keep in mind one of the knocks on him coming out: He wilted when pressured. Part of that "wilting" is poor mechanics when he's pressured, which is why you see so many off-balance throws. Some guys like Favre can do that but most can't. Quinn's mechanics have ALWAYS been flawed. This isn't something new. It's hard to imagine that the coaches haven't worked HARD with him on this. Brady just has to figure out a way to overcome that flaw himself. If he does, yes, his accuracy will improve, but do I believe it'll be enough? No. We've seen him make terrible throws too many times as a pro when he's had excellent protection or time to throw.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Hehehe.........Just my dumb luck to catch them in a Homeristic moment.
I DID see Sam's thoughts on not trading away Edwards. I don't put much stock into what that man says very much because his NFL.......the one he remembers and functioned in........is gone. This is a player-driven league governed by the salary cap. It's a different world and he simply doesn't get it.
It's interesting what you said about Dieken because he seemed to be the less Homeristic of the three. Of course I know that I've seen these guys a grand total of maybe 15 times over the last several years because of the infrequency of my visits.
Something else you noted which I privately laughed about...........All the shows have the same people on them What........Is Cleveland so small that we have to recycle the talking heads from one show to the next? Kinda reminds me of a communist state because all the same opinions are simply parrotted from show to the next, ultimately pushing the state agenda 
(Sorry, I know I've gone down a different path than the threads intention)
I do want to say a few good things about Bruce Drennan. I may not agree with some of the things he says, but I would loudly applaud him for being very thoughtful with his comments when people call into his show. He's brave enough to literally sit still and be quiet for a full 5-7 seconds while he considers an answer to a question. That's a far-cry from guys like Sam and Grossi who fire off with pre-determined opinions. That tells me Drennan has an open mind. I dig it. However, even he isn't immune from a little Homerism, hehehe. He made a comment last night that made me chuckle......
He told several callers that it's just too soon to say which positions need the most attention, but when the subject of Quinn came up, he was way in his corner. When yet another caller talked about which positions needed the most help, he was VERY quick to say we didn't need a QB. OK He then said something that made it all crystal clear why so many people are behind Quinn..........He said.......and I'm paraphrasing here........That he's sick and tired of going through all these QB's, and that he just wants to stick with one and go from there. I find that interesting because so many on this board said the same thing last year and this year. It's essentially sticking with a guy for all the wrong reasons, so I think the fact Quinn is a local boy who is charismatic has swayed opinion in his favor when combined with the aforementioned thought. I think it's more wishful thinking than anything else when they say Holmgren is going to fix him. We'll see. I don't believe it, but I sure hope he can. I'd like to be done with this QB thing as well.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Another example: Talk that Mangini is making it tougher on Holmgren to fire him. What........We beat an iffy Steelers team when the weather was the great equalizer, where Ariens inexplicably chose to throw the ball 40 times in terrible wind conditions, then beat a pathetic Chiefs team because of Josh Cribbs' 2 return TD's and some 694 yards from Harrison, nevermind the pathetic QB play as well as a horrid defensive effort.
I hope Holmgren keeps Mangini and gives him a chance to prove himself next year. Give him the help he needs in personnel ... get Mangini on board with his vision, keep an open mind about Mangini's feedback (every boss has a vision; the great ones are also receptive to flexibility in the vision based on feedback from their reports), and let Mangini coach the team.
I believe the guy has made mistakes this year. But I'm wondering why we can't give the guy a second chance to redeem himself. Why can't he be afforded the chance to see if he can improve? We seem willing to do this with our favorite players. Why can't we do this with our coaches?
RAC got four years. That was plenty. We are talking about firing another coach after just one year ... a coach that has improved some areas that needed improvement. Mangini will have no choice but to follow the direction laid out for him by someone else. Let's see what type of coach he can be with this structure.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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There's two aspects to Mangini, though. I can accept the argument that says he should get a 2nd year. BUT, Holmgren is going to install all his own kinds of people. That means if Mangini is kept, he'd have to suffer through a defensive AND offensive philosophy switch. It would be Holmgren's OC and Holmgren's DC and schemes. In many ways, Mangini would be a puppet head coach, and I don't see how any coach could succeed with that.
Just ask Jim Zorn.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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He told several callers that it's just too soon to say which positions need the most attention, but when the subject of Quinn came up, he was way in his corner. When yet another caller talked about which positions needed the most help, he was VERY quick to say we didn't need a QB. OK He then said something that made it all crystal clear why so many people are behind Quinn..........He said.......and I'm paraphrasing here........That he's sick and tired of going through all these QB's, and that he just wants to stick with one and go from there. I find that interesting because so many on this board said the same thing last year and this year. It's essentially sticking with a guy for all the wrong reasons, so I think the fact Quinn is a local boy who is charismatic has swayed opinion in his favor when combined with the aforementioned thought. I think it's more wishful thinking than anything else when they say Holmgren is going to fix him. We'll see. I don't believe it, but I sure hope he can. I'd like to be done with this QB thing as well.
Toad I can tell you that I fall partially into that group. I am tired of going round and round with the QB debate and I do like a lot of things about Quinn that make me want him to succeed...
On the other hand, I'm also extremely tired of having the "Who sucks more, the QB or the talent around him" debate... so my more immediate thought is, spend the money and the picks and get the other 10 players around him to at least an average to above average NFL level.. so whether it's Quinn or Bradford or Campbell or somebody else that when they take the field in the next couple years, we can KNOW what the problem is (if there is a problem)... In short, we have a ton of variables as to what MIGHT be the biggest problem, we need to start fixing those problems one at a time, which will give us a better vantage point from which to judge everything else... I happen to think that judging the QB is about the most difficult position to judge, therefore, should be judged last with as many other variables as possible fixed.
Look at Sanchez, he started hot.. I guess the NFL then got film on him and he has struggled ever since. The Jets have about the best rushing game in the NFL, the Jets have one of the best defenses in the NFL... the variables as to why they are not winning are very few and can be more easily identified... We need to get to that position.
yebat' Putin
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Sam has been one of Quinn's biggest supporters since Training Camp '07. DA's big season quieted him for awhile. He was also a big Braylon fan. He just couldn't see getting rid of your only receiver if you really want to win. His take was to man-up and coach the player instead of tossing him because you lack the confidence or ability to do so.
I believe Sam has also said that you don't trade a talent like that without seriously replacing him and not with Jet backups..
Now that is something I totally agree with and have said many times.
I watch the STO programs whenever I have a chance..they're interesting..
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