Quote: One more thing.. Since 1970, (40 yrs) Steelers have the best Record in entire NFL with a 393 & 234 Record. Oh wait, that to can be attributed to looking better than we should. Luck in the NFL, what would we do without it?
Hitless- Football existed before 1970 to most NFL fans; only Stiller fans use 1970 as the starting point for discussions. Why is that do you think? Because its the "modern era" or because yinz sucked major ass in the 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s???
Then yinz discovered steroids in the 70s.....and as of late you beat a 9-7 team for the Lombardi. Gotta love parity eh?
First of all, I dont know who this Hitless is you refer to. I'll respod to you this time, but if you insist on calling me by someone elses handle, i will totally ignor you in the future, as i'm sure most of your family& relations does.
Now, regarding the Early days of football, when the steelers sucked, lets just say i would much rather we accumlated our NFL Records when the game became infinitely more complex with a 32 team league. Where the Players are Bigger, Faster, Stronger, where winning a World Champioinship, is quite a feat, compared to the good old days, where workouts consisted of players lifting beer barrels, WR's ran the 40 in 4.4. Thats 4 minutes 4 Sceonds. ROTFLMFAO.
Oh ya, how about those nifty leather helmets, high Protein dinners consisting of 10 Low grade Hamburgers & a Gallon of Rot Gut beer, LB's that weighed in at a Hefty 180 Lbs. Lets not forget those Grueling 12 game schedules, then a ONE GAME PO in order to get to the Championship game. LOL
You see Shep, i have something you lack -- Its called, Common Sense mixed with Logic. Course, there should be no concern on our your part that i have just Humiliated you for ALL to see. After all, your on your Own board where none will dare tell you, you've just been ripped a new one. Thats right, they will refrain from telling you, but trust me little one, They know!
PS: In a Vein attempt to refute the Undeniable points i just laid out, all you'll achieve is showing your Supreme lack of Intellect, but by all means, be my guest. After all, Embarrassment and Humiliation is thy name. LMFAO at you!
Quote: One more thing.. Since 1970, (40 yrs) Steelers have the best Record in entire NFL with a 393 & 234 Record. Oh wait, that to can be attributed to looking better than we should. Luck in the NFL, what would we do without it?
Hitless- Football existed before 1970 to most NFL fans; only Stiller fans use 1970 as the starting point for discussions. Why is that do you think? Because its the "modern era" or because yinz sucked major ass in the 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s???
Then yinz discovered steroids in the 70s.....and as of late you beat a 9-7 team for the Lombardi. Gotta love parity eh?
As for the Steroid comment, looks like you missed it again. In a 2008 Article by Sports Illustrated, pages, 78 & 79, they PROVED that Half of All NFL players were using the Low grade Pharmaceutical stuff, including 7 Browns Players. Huh? What? LOL
Your comments regarding this borders the Pathetic, not to speak of sheer Desperation. Moreover, the NFL channel backed up SI's findings.
Now for the rest of the Accurate Story that is sure to depress you even more>
WHO STARTED TO ROIDS CRAZE IN THE NFL? Read and weep Slep
If the Steelers didn't glamorize steroid usage, or introduce it as Haslett indicated, who did?
Pumped-up pioneers: the '63 Chargers Comment Email Print Share By T.J. Quinn...ESPN
Page 2 Steroid usage was actually introduced by a gentleman by the name of Alvin Roy, strength coach of the then AFL's San Diego Chargers in 1963, seven years prior to the Steelers decade of domination. Alvin went on to introduce the use of steroids to the Chiefs, Cowboys, and the Raiders, spreading the use of performance enhancing drugs (PEDs) throughout the NFL.
Alvin Roy was a veteran of the United States Army, having fought in the Battle of the Bulge, winning four battle stars and a bronze star. While serving in the Army, Roy was assigned to be an aide for the US Weightlifting Team in Paris for the World Championships in 1946. This is where he became associated with Bob Hoffman, coach of the team. Bob was also the owner of the York Barbell Company and published a weight training magazine back in the United States and is renowned in the history of US weightlifting.
After serving in the Army Roy returned to his native Baton Rouge, Louisiana in 1947 and opened a weight training studio, one of the first in the country. While running the studio, he continued to be involved with the US Weightlifting team, serving as their trainer for the 1952 Olympics.
In 1954 in Baton Rouge, Billy Cannon (a 168 lb sophomore high school football star) began his strength conditioning at Roy's studio. "By the time Billy entered LSU two years later, he was up to 193. By his sophomore year when he began varsity play, he weighed 200 and pressed 270, which was only 12 pounds off the Olympic record at the time. Coach Paul Dietzel (LSU) was so impressed that he sent his players to Alvin's studio since LSU had no weight room of its own. Roy never asked for compensation from the university. What he created is considered the first weight training program at any university and contributed greatly to the Tigers' 1958 National Championship success. Roy eventually opened 27 gyms around the country." (LSU Tigers Hall of Fame). Cannon won the 1959 Heisman Trophy.
Coincidentally, the 1950s is essentially when steroids began to make their impact on sports. According to ESPN's article, "Pumped-up pioneers: the '63 Chargers" (Pumped-up pioneers: the '63 Chargers), scientists had begun experimentation with steroids in the early part of the 20th century. In the 1950s, Soviet weightlifters were using steroids. In 1954, "John Ziegler, who worked with the U.S. national weightlifting team, was at the world championships in Vienna and had drinks with a Soviet doctor at the hotel bar. That doctor told him the Soviet lifters were using testosterone. Ziegler, according to historian John D. Fair, tried injecting Western athletes with it for years, but was discouraged by the results. In 1958, the Ciba pharmaceutical company in Geneva developed an artificial form of testosterone called methandrostenolone. Ciba called it "Dianabol" and sold it in pill form. Ziegler started experimenting with it and, before the 1960 Olympics in Rome, he told his friend Bob Hoffman, the coach of the U.S. weightlifting team, that American lifters should start taking it if they wanted to catch up to the Soviets. Hoffman had his doubts, and the lifters themselves weren't sure there was any point to taking a pill, either. So they competed clean, and were crushed. The Soviets took five of seven possible gold medals; the United States took one. From that point on, the U.S. team used Dianabol as part of its training. The trainer on that team was Roy."
While there appears to be no proof that Roy was using Dianabol with the LSU Tigers and Billy Cannon, the timing is very close. Roy was the US weightlifting team trainer and had been associated with the program since 1946. John Ziegler had been trying to introduce the use of Dianabol to American weightlifters since the drug was released in 1958. LSU won the National Championship that very season, and the following year Cannon won the Heisman Trophy. However, the earliest documented proof that Roy was using Dianabol as a part of his strength training regimen at his studio in Baton Rouge was in 1962.
It was also in 1962 that the San Diego Chargers of the AFL suffered a dismal 4-10 season. Legendary coach Sid Gillman, the Chargers coach, was frustrated and looking for a way to change the fortunes of his team. Gillman took his team to Rough Acres for training camp, a ranch east of San Diego and introduced the league's first strength and training program and coach, Alvin Roy.
Per ESPN's article, Hall of Fame offensive tackle Ron Mix states, "I still remember his speech, almost verbatim....He said, 'Because you're going to be lifting weights in addition to working out twice a day, you're going to need more protein.' And he said, 'When I was a trainer for the U.S. team in the Olympics, I learned a secret from those Rooskies.' And he held up a bottle of pink pills, and he says, 'This stuff is called Dianabol and it's going to help assimilate protein and you'll be taking it every day.' And, sure enough, it showed up on our training tables in cereal bowls." Per Ron Mix, the team that year made it "mandatory" that the players took Roy's pills with each meal.
"I think less than 5 percent of the guys never took them," says Paul Maguire, a former linebacker and punter and longtime announcer who now works for ESPN. "No one really understood what it was supposed to do for you. They just told you if you use this and lift weights, it will all come together. But if you weren't going to lift weights, you weren't going to take the pills."
Translation: 95% of the Chargers were taking the roids.
In 2005 at a Dole Institute speaker series discussion on steroids, former Chargers quarterback John Hadl was a panel member. "Our strength coach (with the Chargers) was a guy named Alvin Roy. We called him the medicine man. He gave guys little cups with these pills in them. None of us knew what they were, but I later found out they were steroids. About 10 of us didn't take them...They weren't illegal back then, but I know a lot of guys who did take them...But two months after taking them, they were huge. The guys who didn't take them, well, they weren't huge. And that's the problem. Do you risk your health to succeed in your sport?" (Bill Althaus, The Examiner).
The results of "The Medicine Man's" impact were immediate. In 1963, his first season with the team, San Diego finished 11-3 and won the AFL Championship destroying the Boston Patriots 51-10. Roy served as the strength coach in San Diego for another five years. The team played in three AFL Conference Championships during this time, and won the city's only professional sports championship with the 1963 title.
In 1968, Roy became the strength coach for Hank Stram and the Kansas City Chiefs, a team that had gone 9-5 in the 1967 season. In Roy's first season as coach, the team improved to 12-2, losing in the divisional round of the playoffs. In 1969, the team fell a game to 11-3. In 1970, the Chiefs won Super Bowl IV.
In 1972, Roy was lured to Dallas by Tom Landry to become the Cowboys' strength coach. He remained through 1975. The Cowboys won the Super Bowl that season, giving Roy his 3rd Championship ring.
In the late 1970s, Roy became the strength coach of the Oakland Raiders. He died of a heart attack in April 1979, while still in tenure with the Oakland Raiders. That upcoming season, the Raiders won the Super Bowl, which would have been Roy's fourth ring. He undoubtedly had left his mark on that franchise as well. Page 3 of 4) The question then becomes, just how pervasive were the use of steroids in the 1970s? The resounding success of steroids had made an impact on players throughout the league. The use of steroids by the 1970s was widespread. By 1964, players on other teams were aware of the Chargers quick turn around and championship success. Adoption began on other teams that season.
The late Steve Courson, former Pittsburgh Steeler offensive lineman (who wrote a book about his days with the Steelers and steroid usage), presented his case in front of Congress in 2005. Courson admits to having begun the use of steroids in his college days at the University of South Carolina, before he was a Steeler. His use of them continued and was at its highest at the end of his career in Tampa Bay in 1985. "By 1963, Courson wrote, steroids reached the San Diego Chargers through strength coach Alvin Roy, who worked before with the U.S. Olympic weightlifting team. When Roy later joined the Chiefs, Cowboys and Raiders, steroid use followed in his wake, eventually reaching the Steelers dynasty and every other NFL team, according to Courson." "By the time of our dynasty, it was pretty widespread throughout the league," he stated.
The evidence supports his claim. Steroid usage was rampant in the 1970s. In September of 2008, the San Diego Tribune did their own "Mitchell Report" on steroid usage in the NFL dating back to 1962 (A Detailed History). The list of names is large, encompassing 18 teams and countless players. It's important to note that these are based only on players who have confessed or documented cases (limited) where players were fined for usage. Without any formal testing, evidence of usage was and has been difficult to come by. I've included the list (players from the 60s, 70s, and a 80s) as an appendix to this article.
It's important to remember that steroid usage was during this time period both legal in the United States and not banned in any form by the NFL. It was not until 1983 (20 years after the Chargers began using them) that Pete Rozelle and the NFL wrote specific language banning the usage of steroids. It wasn't until 1987 that the NFL began testing for steroid usage. And it was only after the Ben Johnson Olympic controversy that the U.S. began debating adding steroids to the Controlled substances act. Two years later, anabolic steroids were added to Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act in the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990 (27 years after Roy introduce them to the NFL).
As long as a person had a prescription, using steroids was both legal in the United States and not against league rules. Similarly, cocaine was legal prior to the 20th century, and found in Coca-Cola and health tonics, and could be used "as a matter of choice" by the individual. Steroids were similarly a matter of choice for the individual.
With competition pushing players and teams to win, steroid adoption was logical and its use was rampant. Alvin Roy had clearly demonstrated with his multitude of successes the impact steroids could have.
By the 1970s, steroids had already been glamorized and were in wide consumption. Not by the Pittsburgh Steelers. But instead by Alvin Roy, a man who helped four different NFL teams win titles, helped one college team capture an NCAA Championship, and help build a Heisman winner.
Steroids aside, Roy was admittedly a great man and an innovator. He was a decorated war veteran. He was a pioneer in desegregation. And he had the right intent and philosophy regarding health and conditioning. He unfortunately lived during a time of steroid ignorance and adoption.
As the late, great Paul Harvey so famously coined - and now you have "the rest of the story." (Page 4 of 4) Appendix
From "A Detailed History", Brent Shrotenboer, San Diego Union Tribune, September 2008
This is not an all inclusive list, but does speak to the wide-spread usage of steroids and amphetamines during the 60s, 70s, and 80s.
Note: Players with an asterik were at least one time Pro Bowlers
CHARGERS 1963 - Alvin Roy gave players Dianabol steroids in cereal bowls, according to players, as part of mandatory regimen, introducing them to the league 1974 – Eight Chargers and General Manager Harland Svare fined by NFL in drug crackdown related to amphetamines investigation. 1960s - *OT Ron Mix took Roy's steroid pills for about five weeks. 1960s - DL Houston Ridge sued team in 1970 for injuries he attributed to drug use, including steroids. He settled for $265,000. 1960s - *TE Dave Kocourek also was among players taking the pills until finding out their side effects. 1960s - *OG Walt Sweeney said regular use of drugs and steroids led him to addiction. In legal case, a judge awarded him $1.8 million in benefits and attorney's fees from NFL pension fund. 1974 - RB Bob Thomas - fined for amphetamine and drug use 1974 - *DE Deacon Jones - fined for amphetamine and drug use 1974 - Coy Bacon - fined for amphetamine and drug use 1974 - *DT Dave Costa - fined for amphetamine and drug use 1974 - *WR Jerry LeVias - fined for amphetamine and drug use 1974 - *LB Rick Redman - fined for amphetamine and drug use 1974 - *LB Tim Rossovich - fined for amphetamine and drug use
ATLANTA 1980s - DL Tony Casillas said he used steroids in college at Oklahoma. 1980s - *OL Bill Fralic said he used steroids in college at Pitt. He later told U.S. Senate committee that as much as 75 percent of NFL linebackers, linemen and tight ends have used steroids.
BALTIMORE/INDIANAPOLIS COLTS 1970s - DB Nelson Munsey sued NFL retirement plan in 2000 seeking improved benefits. Complaint said he used steroids and amphetamines "consistent with the common usage of such drugs in professional football at that time."
BUFFALO 1980s - LB Jim Haslett told reporters he used steroids and said the Pittsburgh Steelers were known for steroid use in the 1970s. He later apologized about his Steelers comments.
CHICAGO 1985 - *DT Steve McMichael (1985) told Sports Illustrated he took steroids briefly in the past. 1980s - *OT Jimbo Covert (early 1980s) said he experimented with steroids in college at Pitt.
DALLAS 1970s/80s - *DL John Dutton (1970s/80s) said he liked to take them during preseason, according to World Herald, before they were banned. 1980s - DL Tony Casillas said he used steroids in college at Oklahoma.
DENVER 1970s - DL Jim White (1970s) died of liver cancer in 1982, which was attributed to steroid use. He is possibly the first NFL player to die thanks largely to steroid use.
GREEN BAY 1965 - *OL Bill Curry (1965) used Dianabol to increase to 240 pounds from 220, according to New York Times.
HOUSTON OILERS 1980 - *OG Bob Young used steroids, according to teammate Dave Casper in 2002 interview. Young died in 1995 at age 52. 1970s - *QB Dan Pastorini (1970s) said in suit he was injected with "drugs and/or steroids and/or other substances" during career.
MINNESOTA 1964 - WR Lance Rentzel (1964) used performance-enhancing drugs before joining the NFL, according to biography.
NEW YORK JETS 1988 - OL Dave Cadigan tested positive at combine before draft. 1980s - *DE Mark Gastineau in 2000 admitted having used steroids. 1978-81 - *DL Joe Klecko said he took steroids in offseason for strong-man contests, according to book by Charles Yesalis. 1970s - DB Chris Farasopoulos said he took amphetamines before games.
NEW YORK GIANTS 1965 - *DE Fred Dryer used steroids to get bigger in junior college. "I was told if I wanted to get better and gain weight I'd better (use steroids)," he told Parade Magazine. 1963 RB Joe Don Looney took steroids before joining league in effort to bulk up, according to biographer. 1970s - OL Jim Clack (1970s) spoke about taking steroids in book about Steelers by Roy Blount.
OAKLAND/LOS ANGELES RAIDERS 1980s - OL Curt Marsh told the Seattle Post-Intelligencer he experimented with steroids. 1972-85 - *DL Lyle Alzado became poster boy for steroid and HGH use in the NFL. He blamed his brain tumor on his use of those drugs. He died at 43 in 1992. He said he starting taking steroids in 1969. 1970s - DL John Matuszak died at 38 in 1989 after life of partying, including drug use and suspected steroid use.
PITTSBURGH 1982 - OL Rick Donnalley told Cincinnati Post he used steroids. 1970s/80s - *OL Mike Webster. In suit against NFL pension fund, statements from doctors said Webster experimented with steroids. Died in 2002 at age 50. 1970s/80s - OL Steve Courson admitted steroid use, developed heart problem and testified before Congress about steroid abuse in NFL. 1970s - OL Jim Clack (1970s) spoke about taking steroids in book about Steelers by Roy Blount. 1970s - FB Rocky Bleier told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette he was prescribed small amounts of Dianabol. Bleier, a Vietnam vet, had shrapnel in his foot from grenade. 1970s - DL Steve Furness (1970s) used steroids, as suspected by his brother Peter. Died in 2000 at age 49. 1970s - Strength coach Lou Riecke (1970s) had experience with Dianabol as a weight lifter. He was hired by coach Chuck Noll, who was an assistant with Chargers in 1963, when strength coach Alvin Roy introduced steroids to Chargers. Riecke said he quit using in 1964 and did not know about any steroid use on Steelers. 1960s - *LB Andy Russell (1960s) talked about taking "pep pills" (amphetamines) for energy rush on field. "We were led to believe they helped you play better," Russell said. "Truth is they help you play much worse because you overreacted." He said Noll discouraged such drug use.
SAN FRANCISCO 1980s - OG Bruce Collie said he used steroids but lessened use after league started suspending players for it in 1989. 1980s - TE Eason Ramson told reporters he used steroids as a player. 1960s/70s - *DL Charlie Krueger said in a disability lawsuit he was "regularly anesthetized between and during games, and endured repeated, questionable steroid treatments administered by the team physician." Settled case for around $1 million. 1960s - QB Bobby Waters said he used Dianabol steroids to bulk up and used it as early as 1962. Team doctor Lloyd Millburn offered Waters Dianabol, according to author Matt Chaney.
ST. LOUIS/ARIZONA CARDINALS 1980s - DE Kirby Criswell (early '80s) arrested in 1982 on charges of conspiracy to produce and distribute methamphetamines, sentenced to five years in prison. 1960s - *OG Ken Gray (1960s) sued team in 1971 for $3.5 million, claiming the team made him take "potent, illegal and dangerous drugs" so that he would perform "more violently." He settled for a smaller amount.
Tampa Bay Buccaneers 1970s/80s - OL Steve Courson admitted steroid use, developed heart problem and testified before Congress about steroid abuse in NFL.
WASHINGTON 1974 - Coach George Allen (1974). Former player Walt Sweeney testified in suit that Allen told players, "If it takes amphetamines to win, I will bring it in by the truckload." 1974/75 - *OG Walt Sweeney said regular use of drugs and steroids led him to addiction. In legal case, a judge awarded him $1.8 million in benefits and attorney's fees from NFL pension fund.
These are the FACTS! Not the LIES some idiots love to spread around to downplay the steelers accomplishments. Jealousy reigns Supreme in Brown Town. Last 37 games Steelers Vs Browns -- Steelers 33 & 4. Talk about Total Humiliation. See what happens Slep when you actually have working brain cells?
Quote: Asking a question like that on a message board indicates Sheer Desperation, in light of no retort. Obvious is thy name
O Romeo, Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo? Deny thy father and refuse thy name; Or if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love And I'll no longer be a Capulet.
"The Browns are a club contenders probably don't want to face right now. Their physicality cannot be questioned."
First of all, I dont know who this Hitless is you refer to.
Funny, that's the same thing you said last year about this time.
Quote: Now, regarding the Early days of football, when the steelers sucked, lets just say i would much rather we accumlated our NFL Records when the game became infinitely more complex with a 32 team league. Where the Players are Bigger, Faster, Stronger, where winning a World Champioinship, is quite a feat, compared to the good old days, where workouts consisted of players lifting beer barrels, WR's ran the 40 in 4.4. Thats 4 minutes 4 Sceonds. ROTFLMFAO.
We've had this argument before. And, as has been asked here, and I've asked before......if it was so easy, why didn't yinz win?
In actuality, it was more difficult in the past (pre 70's) to win it all, because the talent wasn't as diluted.
Quote:
You see Shep, i have something you lack -- Its called, Common Sense mixed with Logic.
Oh, I have that too.......along with the ability to spell and form coherent sentences, Something that you lack......just as Hitless always lacked. Easy to spot from a mile away, you see!
Quote: Tin, his point blew right over your head.. his point wasn't that you aren't that good and you've been lucky for 40 years, his point was that even when the Steelers look like they should be down, they generally exceed expectations.. see, in fact what he was saying was a complement.... but don't let a little thing like reading comprehension get in the way of a good rant...
It seems Remedial reading is not your forte. I know exactly what he meant, exactly where where he was going.
KEY WORDS: Pittsburgh has always been that football team that has somehow beaten the odds and looked better than they shouldthan they shouldthan they should I rest my case. Next*
Nice try, but Major FAIL!
In the event you still read this board, DC was right, and that was a major fail on your part...
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
That's too bad, it was a 13 page dissertation on how much you suck and you're an idiot...yadda, yadda, yadda. And, of course, the old standbys...Steelers rule, Browns drool. Browns Championships don't count because they happened before the Steelers were any good and we all know that nothing counted in the NFL before then.
Being the Browns are worthless as are the Indians and now with Labron bailing out of town the Cavs will suck also. Do you think they should just toss it all in and abolish all sports in Cleveland?
Quote: Being the Browns are worthless as are the Indians and now with Labron bailing out of town the Cavs will suck also. Do you think they should just toss it all in and abolish all sports in Cleveland?
oh, things aren't going well, things might be hard. toss in the towel.
maybe where you come from, but Northern Ohioans are still good Americans who believe in things and are willing to work and sacrifice for them. not because they are easy, but because they are hard.
Quote: Being the Browns are worthless as are the Indians and now with Labron bailing out of town the Cavs will suck also. Do you think they should just toss it all in and abolish all sports in Cleveland?
Kinda reminds you of Dawgpound Drunk. He would capitalize the first letter of all his words in a sentence. This one reminds me of him.....always spouting off nonsense and making himself look lame.
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