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oh and one last thing:
These 3 Top WR..Johnson, Johnson, White, and Fitz..they are arguably the "worst" blocking WR in football
so what do you guys want another Winslow/Edwards...guys that won't block? We are running team it is what we are...
Yes those guys make good catches, etc..but they are awful blockers..just awful...Wayne is an "average" blocker...other then that..the others on the list stink at blocking and "if" you want a smash mouth running team you have to have receivers that are good blockers...
I really do believe WR can easily be addressed in the 2nd...with Heckert..yes he will pluck us our DeSean Jackson...but this D Front 7 needs a surge of energy...a true terror...a hammer..
if we have a Clay Matthews type of guy on the board or a Ngata type of DL sitting there and we pass on him in the 1st for a receiver..it will go down as another in the long list of the city of cleveland facepalms......
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Quote:
oh and one last thing:
These 3 Top WR..Johnson, Johnson, White, and Fitz..they are arguably the "worst" blocking WR in football
Umm, you think Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald are the 'worst' blocking WRs in football? Roddy isn't great at it and Calvin is hit or miss, but neither are the 'worst' either. Wayne dose what is needed as you mentioned.
However, Larry always gives full bore effort when he blocks and is pretty darn good at it (Boldin was always better when they played together, but mostly because he's stronger/tougher). Andre is a good blocker as well. He struggled some when coming back from his hamstring injury, but he was/is a good blocker when healthy.
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there have many many good late rd WR....we already tried this with Braylon...lets try something different and go D for a change
You mean like Courtney Brown, Gerard Warren, and Kam Wimbley?  (I won't include Haden because he's a rookie and he looks good so far)...
These are the NFL sack leaders to this point...
Clay Matthews - 1st
Osi Umenyiora - 2nd
Cameron Wake - UDFA
John Abraham - 1st
Tamba Hali - 1st
DeMarcus Ware - 1st
Chris Clemons - 5th
James Hall - UDFA
Robert Mathis - 4th
This is just sack total but WR is just yardage total and I don't see a whole lot of difference...
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
oh and one last thing:
These 3 Top WR..Johnson, Johnson, White, and Fitz..they are arguably the "worst" blocking WR in football
so what do you guys want another Winslow/Edwards...guys that won't block? We are running team it is what we are...
Yes those guys make good catches, etc..but they are awful blockers..just awful...Wayne is an "average" blocker...other then that..the others on the list stink at blocking and "if" you want a smash mouth running team you have to have receivers that are good blockers...
I really do believe WR can easily be addressed in the 2nd...with Heckert..yes he will pluck us our DeSean Jackson...but this D Front 7 needs a surge of energy...a true terror...a hammer..
if we have a Clay Matthews type of guy on the board or a Ngata type of DL sitting there and we pass on him in the 1st for a receiver..it will go down as another in the long list of the city of cleveland facepalms......
And DL can't be found in the second round? I'm all for building the trenches but the fact is that our offense will be limited without a blue chip WR. With a legit talent at WR, Colt can grow into a better QB and develop one of those QB-WR tandems. Look at every great QB and he had a great WR to throw to.
The first round is where you find your elite talent. Our defense was improved with last year's draft...THis year, its the offense's turn.
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I know he is hurt , but I would have to look at Greg Childs if comes out ! 
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j/c I'm not big on drafting WR's "top 10". As was mentioned it took Detroit FOREVER and a huge investment to get that right.  But I don't feel we'll be drafting in the top 10 this year. As per usual, we need more than one piece of the puzzle. Is WR a big need? Most certainly. But you must look at your needs verses who's left on the board when you pick. Need + talent = pick jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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so what do you guys want another Winslow/Edwards...guys that won't block? We are running team it is what we are...
Edwards is like New York's best blocking WR, he's been applauded numerous times by their coaching staff for his blocking efforts...
But hey let's just make things sound good for your argument.
No way would Colt like to have a guy like Fitz or Megatron on the team, and I'm sure MoMass being sloted at #2 and getting less coverage his way would totally hurt him...
If we went 3 wide with Fitz/Tron, MoMass and Stuckey? Adding Watson/Moore or Hillis/Vickers out of the back field?
It makes it easier to run the ball too...
But that doesn't matter..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Maybe, Maybe not...Good teams know games are won "in the trenches" that why guys like Joe Thomas, Ngata, Peppers, etc go so high..LT, Pass Rush DE, etc..those positions are the hardest to fill even moreso then WR and teams won't pass on guys like that...even if they don't need them....
However, we really do not know what we have at WR....we don't throw to our WR very much....Daboll O system is centered more around throwing to the TE and backs and occasionally to the slot receiver...just like the Patriots do....its takes receivers 3 years to do anything anyways.
Robo had a nice diving reception two weeks ago against NE, MoMass made some nice plays the last two weeks...we have to give these guys a chance to grow...and 1 and half years isn't enough for any WR
I am all for drafting another receiver in the 2nd on to add to the fire...i just can't justify WR in the 1st when our D Front 7 needs help badly...more then any other position on this team...
Also, we are a "running team" its what we are...MoMass and Robo are both very good blockers...you watch the film with Hillis...these two WR blocking and sealing off the corners was a big reason for Hillis running success...these twe guys are great blockers....our O system doesn't throw to the WR very much...neither does NE...NE never really has either except when they had Moss...
We need to throw to our WR a bit more, but we need to have Wr that can block...good blocking Wr is a must for Mangini's system....its not optional...they must be good blockers...
I just think we need to give these two guys a chance...we hardly throw them the ball...however when we do(the few times we have) they have both made some decent catches....i think they could grow into average WR which is good enough to get the job done as long as they keep up the great blocking so we can pound it.
however DL is way more of a need and "luckily" now that Colt is playing well i figure we will win 7 or 8 games anyways so none of those WR will be there for us anyways which "forces us" in a nice way to go D Front 7 which is a good thing!
you want to compete and beat Pitt and Balt in this division you have got to be able to win the battle Defensively on the Front 7...and we can't do that with what we have...we have the OL to win that battle, but D Front 7 is a joke...we fix that...we can start taking it to the Ravens and Steelers on a regular basis....we do that...we can win the division...
Defense wins championships, Defense wins this division....we want to compete in this division on a reg basis we will do it running the ball and playing good hard-nosed D...we need a top 5 ranked Run D and a top 10 Pass D...we get that....were in good shape...then we can run the ball and grind out games in Browns fashion.
WR don't help our Run D
WR don't help our pass rush
our D Front 7 blows chunks...i think the answer is pretty clear...those guys are veterans and they stink...Rubin and Fujita are our only legitimate guys with the 3rd Jackson being hurt...Coleman, Rogers, the others..depth/too old...those guys are just finished...we need youth there....
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OSGuy? do you want to make the playoffs next year? or the year after?
you look at the D rankings of the teams that get it....thats all im going to say...you want to win regularly and have a chance in the postseason...you will get there with Defense...you gotta have a good Defense...
The Rams had Tory Holt, Marshall Faulk, etc...the Pats had no big names...just a very good Defense...who won that game? (Tom Brady did his part, but that D put the clamps on the Rams)
The Cardinals had Fitzgerald and Boldin and Breaston...the Steelers had a really good Defense...who won that game?
rest my case...
Last edited by Knight_Of_Brown; 11/15/10 04:34 PM.
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A less mobile QB gets sacked 6 times yesterday, we got pressure on Sanchez, he just had his "It" game and got away...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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The Cardinals had Fitzgerald and Boldin and Breaston...the Steelers had a really good Defense...who won that game?
rest my case...
Santonio Holmes? A First round WR...
Pitts D couldnt stop Fitz at times that game...
Hey I'm not saying go WR all the way Round 1, or D, Depends on what's their, if were in the middle of the pack and theres a nice RT there, I'm all for that too...
I'm just replying to yuor rediculous undervaluement of having a top WR...
Last edited by OSGuy; 11/15/10 04:38 PM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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we made Sanchez look like Big Ben and he was on "one leg" for petes sake....
if we had a Ray Lewis, Bruschi, Vrabel, Seymour, Harrision, Woodley, those are sacks......its lack of talent on Defense is what it is..
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True but they stopped him most of the game minus 1 long catch and run...they shut him down the entire first half and most of the second half outside that 1 big play...D won that game...as much as i hate to say it...Harrisions INT return Defense was the difference...the Steelers D stopped them when it mattered...thats what good Defenses do...
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The problem is, even Roth got shaken off on that play that went to Cotchery that Wright is getting crucified for.
Who are we going to get that's tougher than Roth?
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WOW lets get back to the whole point of this thread....are there any FREE AGENT WR's out there right now that can help us this year? Is Javon Walker still a FA? What about Coles?
#brownsgoodkarma
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The same can be said about drafting for ANY position.
You can find good players throught the middle rounds, you may catch a break and find someone in the later rounds...
But if you want the best chance at finding a sure fire good/great player, it's all about round 1...
Some have said we went Defense last year, so we have to go Offense this year.
I think it'll depend on whos there also of course...
Throw in FA and who knows what we'll have going into the draft.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
WOW lets get back to the whole point of this thread....are there any FREE AGENT WR's out there right now that can help us this year? Is Javon Walker still a FA? What about Coles?
Halfway through the eyar noone is going to come in right now and be able to "help" in any large way... IMO.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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All Pro
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But I don't feel we'll be drafting in the top 10 this year. As per usual, we need more than one piece of the puzzle. Is WR a big need? Most certainly.
But you must look at your needs verses who's left on the board when you pick. Need + talent = pick
This is Pit's quote, but don't you guys think we are getting a little ahead of ourselves here?
We have NO IDEA where we are drafting right now, we have NO IDEA what juniors are going to come out at any position.
We have NO IDEA who we will pick up as a free agent.
and last but definately not least......we have NO IDEA who will be on the board when we pick.
WR is a great need, but as others have said, so is S, CB, DL, LB, RT (maybe).......and that is in no particular order.
Don't we need to wait and see who is on the board?
Don't we need to see if we pull off any magic and pick up some extra picks or pull in some stud free agent?
Let's just wait till we get a little closer to the draft and see what is available WHEN WE PICK..........but wait.....maybe that just makes to much sense.......let's just go ahead and make our pick now and to hell with everything else........   
Born and breed with OSU, App. State alumni, but bleed orange and brown.
Go ARMY......Beat Navy!!!!!!
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I don't care about your stats: stats are now, and always have been, FOR LOSERS.
I love that line. Its completely true too.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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The Rams had Tory Holt, Marshall Faulk, etc...the Pats had no big names...just a very good Defense...who won that game? (Tom Brady did his part, but that D put the clamps on the Rams)
Who won the Super Bowl the year before that?
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These 3 Top WR..Johnson, Johnson, White, and Fitz..they are arguably the "worst" blocking WR in football
so what do you guys want another Winslow/Edwards...guys that won't block? We are running team it is what we are...
Yes those guys make good catches, etc..but they are awful blockers..just awful...Wayne is an "average" blocker...other then that..the others on the list stink at blocking and "if" you want a smash mouth running team you have to have receivers that are good blockers...
I really do believe WR can easily be addressed in the 2nd...with Heckert..yes he will pluck us our DeSean Jackson...
DeSean Jackson is a marginal blocking WR at best... It's like you are making the argument that we need a great possession type WR with great hands who can block for our run game then you throw out a speedy guy with decent hands who doesn't block all that well as your example.. I don't get it. Colston would have been a much better example of a late round guy that fits why we need, by your definition.
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We can debate this all we want, but most would agree our two biggest positions of need and the two positions where someone could step in and have an impact are WR and DE/OLB (pass rusher). Unless there is a player at another position the FO obviously can't pass up, the Browns will likely draft a WR and a OLB/DB in the first two rounds this year. That could change as well if they can fill one of those spots in FA.
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I sort of agree with KoB here ... we don't HAVE to go WR in the draft. Just look at some of the top teams in the league: Steelers, Pats, Indy, Atlanta Baltimore ... I think the highest drafted receivers from those teams is Michael Jenkis who was the 25th pick and Reggie Wayne, who was the 30th pick. Then you got a team like San Diego who has one of the top rated offenses, and they've been playing bums at WR all year. (Having Gates helps though) If one of the top WR's drops in the draft, then by all means, scoop him up ... but in no-way is it a necessity. Especially since this team seems to be forging an identity as a hard-nosed running team.
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I also agree that we don't have to go WR in the 1st round.
His argument against it just stinks.
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I also agree that we don't have to go WR in the 1st round.
His argument against it just stinks.
Exactly.. we have OTHER needs to fill in the 1st if we choose to.. we could go DE/OLB in the first and then WR in the second.. wouldn't bother me at all... or we could do it the other way around...... the thing is that we have to get the right guys...
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I also agree that we don't have to go WR in the 1st round.
His argument against it just stinks.
Why does the argument stink? it has sound reasoning and logic behind it.
Look how many "leads" have we blown this year...how many games were we leading at half time or leading in the 4th and lost?
We need a Defense that can "hang on" to lead....again Defense is what wins games..a better D and we hang on to those leads and we are talking playoffs right now,......
The margins of victory in terms of points in the NFL is not very big...games are very close most of the time...you need a Defense that can hang on to a lead to win games...you need a Defense that can get itself off the field quickly to give your offense more opportunities to score...
Defense makes sense and is a much more logical pick.....Defense has cost us games this year...meaningful games because our Defense can't hang on to a lead...with better talent on Defense...we are tied for 2nd place in this division and have a huge heads up in the Wildcard race at the least..
this teams problems are more about blowing leads and not being able to hang on to leads...this goes back as far as 2007...see Steelers game, I think Romeo blew 3 straight games with leads because of Defense...Mangini Defense has blown quite a few games this year too
thats where my argument comes from...we are good enough to win "now" with better talent on Defense and we need to shore that up pronto....now if we add a big name D guy in FA then ok draft the Wr and then go back to D rd two..however if we sign a WR...then go D in the 1st rd...we need D Front 7 worse then ANY other position on this roster...those guys are old and just not very good...if we can add 2-3 new guys on that Front 7 it will go a long way in fixing what ails us and put more W in the column...
we need talent to be able to hang on to leads we have built and that talent must be infused on the Defensive side of the ball, the Front 7...so we can close games and seal the deal  thats where my argument comes from....
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Quote:
The margins of victory in terms of points in the NFL is not very big...games are very close most of the time...you need a Defense that can hang on to a lead to win games...you need a Defense that can get itself off the field quickly to give your offense more opportunities to score...
I have to agree completely.
The value of a defense that can force Field Goals where the opponent may normally get a Touchdown is immense.
Every single one is a 4-point swing... that's HUGE.
Had we done that on just ONE of their TD drives in regulation yesterday, it's Game Over for them. Instead, they converted about 400 3rd downs chewing up 716 minutes of clock and we couldn't get off the field. Holding them to one more FG, or even forcing a Punt... would have been insanely awesome.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Speaking of 4 points being huge, wouldn't you like to have a receiver that can go up over a DB on a fade route to turn some of our 3's into 7's?
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Definitely... and I don't doubt that it will be addressed. In fact, I would expect it to be a near top priority, but I'd *really* like a defense that can get itself off the field against good offenses.
I expect that we will win at least 4 more games this season... perhaps 5 or 6 (it's unlikely we win all 7). That record should put us drafting in the 12-15 range.... I truly doubt that one of the top WR's will be there, but that range is the ideal spot to draft a stud DE/OLB/Tweener, or even a RT.
I expect us to bring in at least one free agent WR, then I expect us to target at least two more in the draft. Perhaps one in the 2nd round, then a much later rounder.... either way, I think that we'll see as many WR's in camp next summer as we had DB's & LB's this summer. Holmgren is on record that he'd like us to develop our own talent there, so that is what I expect us to do. Sign one guy to bridge us, then develop our own.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Why does the argument stink? it has sound reasoning and logic behind it.
Talent trumps everything.
I don't like taking WR's in the 1st round. But if our front office determines that a WR is the best player available at our pick, then that's the player we should take.
Yes, lately there have been talented WR's selected in the 2nd round or later. Yes, there has also been front 7 players selected in the 2nd round or later. From 2005 to 2009 Calais Campbell, Barry Cofield, Justin Tuck, Trent Cole, James Laurinaitis, Curtis Lofton, Paul Posluszny, LaMarr Woodley, David Harris, Stewart Bradley, DeMeco Ryans, Barrett Ruud, Lofa Tatupu, and Channing Crowder have all been selected in the 2nd round or later. All are front 7 players.
Talented players can be found anywhere in the draft. Just because good players can be had later in the draft doesn't mean you shouldn't take the most talented player available.
And like I've said before. I agree with you, we don't have to take a WR in the 1st round. But I wouldn't be upset if we did.
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nc....good post and good point. Every year people get all excited and "know" what position we need to draft. Then.....the FA signing period opens up. Just look at this year. We needed LB'ers. Insert Fujita and Gokong. We needed a bruising RB. Insert Hillis. We have no idea what we will need come draft day. Not yet. Not even close. The FA signing period is what will tell us "which holes are left to fill". But everybody can have fun guessing I suppose.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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These 3 Top WR..Johnson, Johnson, White, and Fitz..they are arguably the "worst" blocking WR in football
so what do you guys want another Winslow/Edwards...guys that won't block? We are running team it is what we are...
I'm actually inclined to agree with your argument on the whole ... but where are you getting this?
First of all, Braylon is a great blocking WR. I know it's heresy around here to credit him for anything ... but blocking has never been an issue for him.
Andre Johnson is also a great blocking WR. One of the better in the NFL.
Calvin Johnson is also a very solid blocking WR.
Some of the guys you mentioned as the worst could actually be argued as some of the best. 
(I actually haven't watched enough of Fitz to comment on his blocking.)
White is the only name mentioned that doesn't have solid-to-great blocking skills.
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Speaking of 4 points being huge, wouldn't you like to have a receiver that can go up over a DB on a fade route to turn some of our 3's into 7's?
You mean like Evan Moore? 
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it depends on what our FO thinks of the WRs in this class (if they all come out...hinging on CBA and such):
1/2. AJ Green / Julio Jones - doubt they leave the top10. Hopefully we continue to win and they are not an option.
3. Baldwin - I think he'll be a mid-1st round pick. If our FO sees him close to AJ and Julio, we might pick him. If not, then we'll likely go DE/Tweener.
4. Michael Floyd - He is talented enough to go in 1st round but injury concerns push him to the end of it or to high 2nd round. If our FO likes him as much as Baldwin, then we might take a chance he'll be there in round2.
5. Justin Blackmon - Many have him equal to Baldwin, some have him lower. He is definitely a good WR in this deep class.
6. Ryan Broyles - is he a product of OU's offense or does he make OU's offense. That will be the key determination scouts will have to make because he has seemed like the catalyst in the games I have watched. I'd imagine he's there in the 2nd round.
7. Greg Childs - injury concern might push him back to school and I've seen people on both sides about him.
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Now, I don't think we HAVE to draft a WR in the 1st round. I think we take the best talent at a position of need with our pick. However, what I and others were arguing against was the assertion that WRs are just as good in later rounds. It happens, but the odds are better to land the pick in the 1st round.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
yeah, yeah, yeah.... there will be a WR there.... I'm pretty sure that I never said that there wouldn't be. I have no illusion that every WR in the draft will be picked before us. However, now you're into the gray area of do you take the 3rd best WR or the Top DE/OLB/Whatever? It will come down to how each player graded out. I think everybody on the planet knows this. What I am speaking of is what is typical as that is all anyone can go on at this point - and typically you have a couple of top WR's that go very high, then there is a signnificant drop off in talent to the others that end up going perhaps in the bottom of the 1st or into the 2nd. The 12-15 range is where the premier OLB's, RT's, etc.. .are typically coming off the board because all of the premier "skill" players are gone, leaving these position groups as the next highest value. Quote:
However, what I and others were arguing against was the assertion that WRs are just as good in later rounds.
There are tons of WR's with outstanding careers that have come from outside the first round, but as with any position the probability of success is significantly lower.
In the 1st round, perhaps 1 in 5 has a All Pro career. In the 6th round, perhaps 1 in 30 will have that same career.
That All-World level of Talent/Quality can come from anywhere and everywhere... it is just the odds of it happening that change.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
didn't mean that post to come out as crass as it did. sorry about that.
we agree, I just wanted to show the depth of the WR class that could be coming out this year by naming the names.
#gmstrong
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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j/c
If we pick a tweener in the first three rounds I will vomit.
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Justin Houston already plays in a 3-4. How about him?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
Who is that monster from Alabama? He's like 6' 13" and 270 lbs and quick as hell... I want HIM here
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,482 |
You mean Marcell Dareus? I'd be completely on board with grabbing him in the 12-15 range I'd also be completely on board with signing a vet WR via FA before the draft and then grabbing another WR with one of our 2nd/3rd/4th round picks. We certainly need some help there.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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