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He came in here with that Michigan State state of mind... We never gave him a chance....
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I agree..this hire will make or break Holmgren....it had better work out...
I see it like this, if we obviously couldn't get a big name coach that some fans wanted IE: Billick, Cowher, etc then really the best candidate out there for this team was...wait for it...
Perry Fewell
I really felt Fewell was a much better candidate then Shumur in the lesser known candidates section..he filled in as a HC in Buffalo and did well. Also Fewell served under Tom Coughlin in Jacksonville and now in New York...he had the pedigree.
Does the hiring of Shurmur scream of nepotism? you better believe it does....comparing Shurmur and Fewell resumes is not even a contest...Fewell wins hands down there every time...and has much more experience and draws from a much deeper variety of styles... Fewell is a "hard-nosed" coach that Cleveland Fans could identify with...they would love the guy.
however we are stuck with what we have, so we just need to make the most of it.
There were alot of better candidates out there, guys with impeccable track records under their respective systems at multiple positions. This whole thing reeks of deja vu, a complete Lerner style hiring. Interview and lock onto one candidate, do another token interview or two then hire guy #1. I thought we brought Holmgren in to change that and here he is doing the same damn thing. It's been made pretty clear, he wants his system installed here. Normally that would be cool EXCEPT his system hasn't really been effective in over a decade. Teams caught onto it, learned it, implemented parts of it and rendered the pure WCO largely ineffective.
That's not to say it COULDN'T work, but again you need a certain type of coach for it to work. A defensive HC who knows defense and lets the OC run the offense. Why defense? Two reasons, 1: Because offensive coaches, especially offensive coaches off the WCO tree treat defense as unimportant. 2: Because you need defense to win in the NFL, especially in this modern era. The era of the 90's where offensive juggernauts walked all over the NFL is over, it was a trend that has ended. The NFL as a whole caught up to it.
I don't like this pick at all. I'll give him a chance and all but that wasn't the type of coach we needed. We needed either a defensive minded guy like Fewell or someone similar or a well proven offensive guy whose system came from a defense oriented team. Despite my harping on hiring DC's I actually wanted Brian Schottenheimer. That was my top choice. He comes from THE premier system when it comes to winning fast and turning a team around, he's innovative, he's young and his offense is predicated on having a top 3-4 defense.
Let's just hope our new HC realizes this isn't the NFCW, you're never going to get into shootouts with the Ravens and Steelers. Ask the Bengals, they briefly figured that out last year and swept the division.
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The era of the 90's where offensive juggernauts walked all over the NFL is over, it was a trend that has ended. The NFL as a whole caught up to it.
Yeah, about that...
2009 New Orleans Saints. #1 ranked offense, #20 ranked defense.
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1: Because offensive coaches, especially offensive coaches off the WCO tree treat defense as unimportant.
Andy Reid's defenses have finished in the top 10 seven out of his twelve years.
Mike Holmgren's defenses in Green Bay finished in the top 10 five out of seven years. (His defense in Seattle was not so great overally, but the year they made the Super Bowl it was top 10)
Bill Walsh's defenses finished in the top 10 seven out of ten years with the 49ers.
In 11 years as a head coach Jon Gruden's defenses finished in the top 10 seven times.
Steve Mariucci had two top 10 defenses in six years with the 49ers. (I'm not including the Lions time because Matt Millen was the GM)
Brad Childress had four top 10 defenses in five years with the Vikings.
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Quote:
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The era of the 90's where offensive juggernauts walked all over the NFL is over, it was a trend that has ended. The NFL as a whole caught up to it.
Yeah, about that...
2009 New Orleans Saints. #1 ranked offense, #20 ranked defense.
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1: Because offensive coaches, especially offensive coaches off the WCO tree treat defense as unimportant.
Andy Reid's defenses have finished in the top 10 seven out of his twelve years.
Mike Holmgren's defenses in Green Bay finished in the top 10 five out of seven years. (His defense in Seattle was not so great overally, but the year they made the Super Bowl it was top 10)
Bill Walsh's defenses finished in the top 10 seven out of ten years with the 49ers.
In 11 years as a head coach Jon Gruden's defenses finished in the top 10 seven times.
Steve Mariucci had two top 10 defenses in six years with the 49ers. (I'm not including the Lions time because Matt Millen was the GM)
Brad Childress had four top 10 defenses in five years with the Vikings.
king of kings, you were just pwned!!!!
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Let's just hope our new HC realizes this isn't the NFCW, you're never going to get into shootouts with the Ravens and Steelers.
Never is a really strong word.
Now I didn't really know what a "shootout" was so I looked it up. Shootout - a. A high-scoring period or game.
I picked games that the Baltimore Ravens and Pittsburgh Steelers were in that I thought were shootouts. Within the division. Since 2005.
Week 12, 2005. Bengals - 42 / Ravens - 20
Week 4, 2007. Browns - 27 / Ravens - 13 (I don't know if this qualifies, but we did score 24 points in the 1st two quarters)
Week 9, 2008. Ravens - 37 / Browns - 27
Week 10, 2005. Steelers - 34 / Browns - 21
Week 13, 2005. Bengals - 38 / Steelers - 31
Week 3, 2006. Bengals - 28 / Steelers - 20
Week 10, 2007. Steelers - 31 / Browns - 28
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Let's just hope our new HC realizes this isn't the NFCW, you sometimes might get into shootouts with the Ravens and Steelers.
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Really... You're ganna talk about shootouts and not talk about Browns/Bengals week 2 2007? 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Well he said against the Ravens and Steelers. Of course there were other divisional games that would have qualified. I just wanted to stay with the parameters.
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Oh, my mistake... So who won Week 13, 2005. Bengals - 38 / Bengals - 31? Was it the Bengals? 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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YIKES!
Doesn't make me look so good when I am trying to make a point and then screw up my own self.
It has been fixed.
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I could totally see that... Bring in the offensive guy... offense ends up ranked 28th, defense ends up ranked 12th. 
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Yeah, about that...
2009 New Orleans Saints. #1 ranked offense, #20 ranked defense..
They were 3rd in INT's and 1st in creating points off of turnovers, or are we just going off of overall defense? If so congrats, you've found one of exactly two offensive juggernauts in the last decade to win a Superbowl.
I'll tell you what, you can have the Saints and we'll use overall defense as the measuring stick. Fair?
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Andy Reid's defenses have finished in the top 10 seven out of his twelve years.
Fair enough.
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Mike Holmgren's defenses in Green Bay finished in the top 10 five out of seven years. (His defense in Seattle was not so great overally, but the year they made the Super Bowl it was top 10)
I thought we were doing overall defense(the Saints example)? The overall defense in Seattle that year was 16th. As a matter of fact overall Walrus's defenses in Seattle without Ron Wolf running the show? Sucked ass.
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Bill Walsh's defenses finished in the top 10 seven out of ten years with the 49ers.
I hate to nitpick here but I did say OFF of the tree, I didn't say the tree trunk.
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In 11 years as a head coach Jon Gruden's defenses finished in the top 10 seven times.
Don't you mean... Monte Kiffins defenses? I mean in the interest of fairness and all that defense you're talking about was already built and a top 10 defense under Kiffein for 5 years BEFORE Gruden even arrived. So he didn't exactly put a premium ON that defense and, you know, build it up.
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Steve Mariucci had two top 10 defenses in six years with the 49ers. (I'm not including the Lions time because Matt Millen was the GM)
You mean the same Matt Millen who spent a decade under both the Sid Gillman AND Walsh WCO trees? Hey just saying, he's a WCO guy who moved up to management in Detroit and spent every waking moment worrying about the offense.
Oh yeah, we're talking about Mooch. Well actually he had ONE top 10 defense with the 49ers. A defense that was in the top 10 for THREE years before he even got there(notice a trend forming?). Notice how on that stat sheet they went from top 10 under Seifert to bottom of the barrel rather quickly under Mooch? Yeah....
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Brad Childress had four top 10 defenses in five years with the Vikings.
True enough. Although again, it was a top 10 D when he got there.
That's not really the point, these select few guys who walked into a team that already had an established defense. The whole point is still valid. THEY didn't put in the work and treat defense as important, someone else did before they got there.
Btw, in the interest of being fair? You left off Mike McCarthy. To Mikes credit he did bring in Dom Capers and they have had an elite defense the last few years.
Also Mike Shanahan. He had a top 10 D 8 out of 17 years. Hey, i'm generous.
You did leave off Dennis Green, though. Why is that? He too inherited a pretty good defense in MN and for a few years had it running smoothly until it needed to be rebuilt and he was preoccupied with the offense.
Not sure why you left off Billick, either. I mean you're trying to include guys who inherited defenses and defense minded franchises to "get me" and all, he's kind of the posterboy for offensive coordinator who inherits defense.
There's Jimmy Fassel, too. He had a top 10 defense, twice in 7 years. Nevermind that it was in the bottom half of the NFL most of the rest of the time.
No Mike Sherman? He had a top 10 defense... Once.
What about Bill Callahan? Marty Morningwood? Sam Wyche? Bruce Coslet? Mike Mularky(Hey, he had a top 5 defense once)? Gary Kubiak? Mike Tice? Scott Linehan?
So basically your entire argument is Andy Reid, Mike Holmgren, Mike McCarthy and Mike Shanahan. Four guys out of 15. Obviously i'm excluding one year wonders and guys that walked ONTO a team that already had a prebuilt top 10 defense they played zero part in. You can't very well argue they treated something important that was assembled and working before their names crossed the GM's lips.
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king of kings, you were just pwned!!!!
Yeah not quite.
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Never is a really strong word.
Let me paraphrase, this isn't the NFC West. You're not going to SUCCESSFULY get into shootouts with the Ravens and Steelers. Btw, just for clarity sake i've never heard the term shootout applied when both teams stay under 30 points. I honestly don't know if a 28-27 game qualifies. I've never heard anyone in the NFL call a game like that a shootout. Usually when the term is applied and how I meant it is 50+ point games(overall between both teams obviously). That basically disqualifies the Browns/Ravens example. Not a big deal though.
That said you illustrated my point. The last time it was successfully done against Pitt, Pig Ben hadn't fully reached his peak. The Bengals also had a probowl LT and a probowl caliber RT on their OL, a probowl QB, two #1 caliber probowl WR's and a probowl RB. Against Baltimore same thing except Baltimore didn't have a franchise QB at the time. So successfully twice, six years ago.
Surely you would agree the odds of that plan working out is slim to none, no?
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Yeah, about that...
2009 New Orleans Saints. #1 ranked offense, #20 ranked defense..
They were 3rd in INT's and 1st in creating points off of turnovers, or are we just going off of overall defense? If so congrats, you've found one of exactly two offensive juggernauts in the last decade to win a Superbowl. Honestly not very good odds wouldn't you say? Btw, the other juggernaut? The Colts. Sorry, McCoy isn't and never will be Peyton Manning and it took Manning how long to get it done?
I'll tell you what, you can have the Saints and we'll use overall defense as the measuring stick. Fair?
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Andy Reid's defenses have finished in the top 10 seven out of his twelve years.
Fair enough.
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Mike Holmgren's defenses in Green Bay finished in the top 10 five out of seven years. (His defense in Seattle was not so great overally, but the year they made the Super Bowl it was top 10)
I thought we were doing overall defense(the Saints example)? The overall defense in Seattle that year was 16th. As a matter of fact overall Walrus's defenses in Seattle without Ron Wolf running the show? Sucked ass.
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Bill Walsh's defenses finished in the top 10 seven out of ten years with the 49ers.
I hate to nitpick here but I did say OFF of the tree, I didn't say the tree trunk.
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In 11 years as a head coach Jon Gruden's defenses finished in the top 10 seven times.
Don't you mean... Monte Kiffins defenses? I mean in the interest of fairness and all that defense you're talking about was already built and a top 10 defense under Kiffein for 5 years BEFORE Gruden even arrived. So he didn't exactly put a premium ON that defense and, you know, build it up.
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Steve Mariucci had two top 10 defenses in six years with the 49ers. (I'm not including the Lions time because Matt Millen was the GM)
You mean the same Matt Millen who spent a decade under both the Sid Gillman AND Walsh WCO trees? Hey just saying, he's a WCO guy who moved up to management in Detroit and spent every waking moment worrying about the offense.
Oh yeah, we're talking about Mooch. Well actually he had ONE top 10 defense with the 49ers. A defense that was in the top 10 for THREE years before he even got there(notice a trend forming?). Notice how on that stat sheet they went from top 10 under Seifert to bottom of the barrel rather quickly under Mooch? Yeah....
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Brad Childress had four top 10 defenses in five years with the Vikings.
True enough. Although again, it was a top 10 D when he got there.
That's not really the point, these select few guys who walked into a team that already had an established defense. The whole point is still valid. THEY didn't put in the work and treat defense as important, someone else did before they got there.
Btw, in the interest of being fair? You left off Mike McCarthy. To Mikes credit he did bring in Dom Capers and they have had an elite defense the last few years.
Also Mike Shanahan. He had a top 10 D 8 out of 17 years. Hey, i'm generous.
You did leave off Dennis Green, though. Why is that? He too inherited a pretty good defense in MN and for a few years had it running smoothly until it needed to be rebuilt and he was preoccupied with the offense.
Not sure why you left off Billick, either. I mean you're trying to include guys who inherited defenses and defense minded franchises to "get me" and all, he's kind of the posterboy for offensive coordinator who inherits defense.
There's Jimmy Fassel, too. He had a top 10 defense, twice in 7 years. Nevermind that it was in the bottom half of the NFL most of the rest of the time.
No Mike Sherman? He had a top 10 defense... Once.
What about Bill Callahan? Marty Morningwood? Sam Wyche? Bruce Coslet? Mike Mularky(Hey, he had a top 5 defense once)? Gary Kubiak? Mike Tice? Scott Linehan?
So basically your entire argument is Andy Reid, Mike Holmgren, Mike McCarthy and Mike Shanahan. Four guys out of 15. Obviously i'm excluding one year wonders and guys that walked ONTO a team that already had a prebuilt top 10 defense they played zero part in. You can't very well argue they treated something important that was assembled and working before their names crossed the GM's lips.
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Man, I just read this whole thread and now I realize why many of the "original" posters are no longer here. Talk about knee jerk responses.
That's because they are over on the Browns board slamming MH and these moves and calling him every name in the book. They are over the top ticked off, knee jerk doesn't even begin to describe it.
Personally, I don't know what to think of this. I'm pretty underwhelmed by the whole thing and the prospect of starting over again makes me weary. I hope I can hold off the apathy that has been chasing me for a while with this team.
I just hope this group knows what in the hell they are doing.
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Man, I just read this whole thread and now I realize why many of the "original" posters are no longer here. Talk about knee jerk responses.
That's because they are over on the Browns board slamming MH and these moves and calling him every name in the book. They are over the top ticked off, knee jerk doesn't even begin to describe it.
Personally, I don't know what to think of this. I'm pretty underwhelmed by the whole thing and the prospect of starting over again makes me weary. I hope I can hold off the apathy that has been chasing me for a while with this team.
I just hope this group knows what in the hell they are doing.
1/15/11,, write that day down in your book,,,,, This is the day I agree 100% with Jules.... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I just hope this group knows what in the hell they are doing.
I have`nt said anything yet about this hire... As I read the board and Media ... It appears that not landing a DC or OC as of this day has me a bit concerned...
It may have been smarter for Shurmur to not mention that he wants to call the O plays...
Not going to dwell on his abilities yet.... MH was a 2 year qb`s coach then 2 year OC... before moving on to Green Bay to be their Second winningest HC as of now...
With the help of a few beers here and there...I can hold onto the trust in Mike thing... I would like to see something soon thou... Past years are starting to haunt me....
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Starts to make me think we could be targeting a guy currently with one of the four remaining teams?
We also have Wannstache and Jauron in for interviews
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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yes I was wondering that also....And I do understand it`s still early.... But as in the past we waited for the play-offs to end... some expectations were exciting.... Then we ended up with RAC and MO Carthon....
as always...I`am keeping a positive outlook....Till I have reasons not to.
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Clements from the packers is someone I could see us going after hard. Hell of a job he did with Rogers and Flynn. Heck even Bret I thought was better with this guy.
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It may have been smarter for Shurmur to not mention that he wants to call the O plays...
So you're saying that Shurmur should have lied to his potential O-Coordinator in interviews and then pulled out the "Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you, I call the plays"?
If Shurmur can handle play calling, then fine. Someone mentioned before that Sean Payton called his plays when he became head coach. And Andy Reid probably did it when he became head coach.
But I think lying or hiding something from someone about their job is a terrible idea. Especially when cohesion and working as a team is so essential in the profession (coaching)
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Jauron in for interviews
The thinking on Jauron has changed a bit due to the fact Jim Mora Jr withdrew himself from consideration for the Eagles job, it is very likely that Andy Reid will offer their DC job to Jauron.
It is a very competitive market for the NFL's best coaches as we have already witnessed in our search for an OC.
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Right ... that's going to be interesting. I also saw that the eagles have asked to interview Baltimores linebacker coach for the position .. http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/Bloghead/but then it was just updated minutes ago that the rumor is untrue even though it was reported EVEN on their own website ... ? How weird is that ... words are announced that the Eagles are asking to interview a guy ... and it's even written on their website ... and then they have to say "nope, not true."
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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but then it was just updated minutes ago that the rumor is untrue even though it was reported EVEN on their own website ... ?
How weird is that ... words are announced that the Eagles are asking to interview a guy ... and it's even written on their website ... and then they have to say "nope, not true."
I see that...
UPDATE: Despite reports to the contrary, the Eagles have neither asked nor received permission to talk with Ravens linebackers coach Dean Pees about their opening at defensive coordinator.
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So you're saying that Shurmur should have lied to his potential O-Coordinator in interviews and then pulled out the "Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you, I call the plays"?
Not saying that at all.....That all can be talked about during interviews... I see nothing wrong with having someone come in to at least hear what they have to say...Then to discuss what you have in mind....I dont see that as lying...
IMO.... his stating that he wants to call the plays may deter coaches from even wanting to come here for discussion...as it seems it has already..
If I was out looking for a job...and I had visions of doing a job and having the chance to do it at the highest potential for me to advance or make a difference...Then the last thing I would look for is a boss standing outside of his buisness saying " hey you want to work for me..come on in..just stand there and look like you r doing something..you still get paid.. and im still the Boss."
I would walk right on by.....
Last edited by DeisleDawg; 01/20/11 04:58 PM.
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SI Best and Worst New Coach Hires ...... Guess where we placed? http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/video/n...ated/index.html
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Looks like you found some hack that supports your point of view.
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Looks like you found some hack that supports your point of view.
Why is this guy a hack? is it because he is dissing Cleveland or does he have some rep?
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
Looks like you found some hack that supports your point of view.
Why is this guy a hack? is it because he is dissing Cleveland or does he have some rep?
His last name is "Hack". 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
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Looks like you found some hack that supports your point of view.
Why is this guy a hack? is it because he is dissing Cleveland or does he have some rep?
His last name is "Hack".
Had to go there, it was calling to me!
#GMSTRONG
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You know what's funny to me is the same negative things I'm seeing people say about Shurmer I heard people here in WI say when they hired Mike McCarthy and even back when they hired Homgren and Ron Wolf.
I'm not asking anyone to have blind faith but maybe take a rational approach. None of us can even begin to know how this will turn out. I also remember the ridicule when the Falcons hired Smith. Everyone in the national media criticized the pick. The only way to know if this is a good hire or not is to let it play out and see what happens. All of the complaining and even the praise are far too premature.
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Josh McDaniels was considered the next big thing even a year ago ...
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,339 Likes: 254 |
My bad. I even hit the link to see who wrote the article. 
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,605 Likes: 819
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,605 Likes: 819 |
Quote:
My bad. I even hit the link to see who wrote the article.
Get accustomed to it....things like that happen more and more as the years pass.
A few days ago i spent 20 minutes looking all over the house for my glasses.
Turns out I had hung them from my shirt collar I was wearing and not placed them in my shirt pocket.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,165 Likes: 135
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,165 Likes: 135 |
Ha,, a little blind faith is all I got at the moment. I won't knock this hire, not now anyway. But I question it.
But really, lots of folks questioned Tomlin and Harbaugh. Raheem Morris wasn't exactly a household name either. So I suppose there is just as good a chance for success with Shumur as there was with any of those other guys
The big difference being that the Browns aren't as talented as the team those aforementioned individuals had taken control of.
That's why I'm pretty sure that it will take a few years to assemble the staff and player personnel to really get the job done.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
SI Best and Worst New Coach Hires ......
Guess where we placed?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/video/n...ated/index.html
So he's not questioning the selection as much as he is questioning the coaching change in general.. everybody is entitled to an opinion...
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,258 Likes: 597
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,258 Likes: 597 |
Quote:
Quote:
SI Best and Worst New Coach Hires ......
Guess where we placed?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/video/n...ated/index.html
So he's not questioning the selection as much as he is questioning the coaching change in general.. everybody is entitled to an opinion...
Bingo!
I watched this late last night when things were getting fuzzy, but I don't remember him actually talking about Shurmer at all during his little piece. I don't disagree with his comments about Mangini getting canned, but if Shurmer can improve on Mangini's gametime coaching (shouldn't be too hard, and that's the real reason Mangini was fired, imo), he'll be considered a good hire.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Shurmur was interviewed on Pro Football Talk today. Pro Football Talk Shurmur interview starts around the 1 hour 10 minute mark.
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,044
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,044 |
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...or-next-season/ talks about preparation for the afc north. florio asks him about whether it makes finding an OC harder given shurmur will initally call plays. also asked if childress is on the radar, structure/relationship of the top 3 guys, etc. it's worth a listen.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,528 Likes: 6
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,528 Likes: 6 |
Hiring Chilly would make sense as to why Shurmur wants to call plays lol Infact I would be the complaining about not allowing the OC to call plays would end if Chilly becomes OC 
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns hire Pat Shurmur
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