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Big difference between throwing far and throwing a good deep ball. The fact that he overthrew him by so much suggests that he can't throw deep.
Cribbs TD, McCoy threw on the run from the 39yd line, 5-6 yds deep in the endzone, and on target. That's about 45 yds in the air.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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j/c... I don't see the ragging on the throw to Cribbs. I thought it was terrific. Put it deep in a place only his guy could catch it. He caught it. Isn't that what QBs are supposed to do?
Right after the TD I said to my buddy: "..there'll be some board member telling me it was only put where the WR could catch it" lol
That's BS sorry, he put it up for grabs...anyone could have gotten that ball...Smith played it horribly (again, Im sure he just didn expect it) and Cribbs wanted it more and was the only of the 2 that jumped to get it...this wasn't a good play, it was old Colt..the same Colt that threw the INT...running outside the pocket and throwing on the run
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I unignored you, though I'm not sure why.
If the DB picked it off, it would have been an amazing play.
99% of the time, that ball is either a catch, or knocked down, worst case.
It wasn't a great throw, but to say he "just threw it up", is wrong.
Colt struggled yesterday, but when it came down to it, he did exactly what you've asked of him. Show he can put the team on his back and go down and get a score to win a game.
Are you going to give him any credit for that?
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Are you going to give him any credit for that?
I already did if you read my posts...Sparano, being his typical not-to lose loser, handed to him the underneath stuff and Colt took it...all of his throws outside the TD that drive were "short"...the most important pass was the 4th&4 to Hardesty...that completion was all brains by Colt recognizing the OLB would vacate the zone on a blitz...that, for me, was as good to see as any thing Colt has done yesterday, including the late TD...especially in that situation
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That's BS sorry, he put it up for grabs...anyone could have gotten that ball...Smith played it horribly (again, Im sure he just didn expect it) and Cribbs wanted it more and was the only of the 2 that jumped to get it...this wasn't a good play, it was old Colt..the same Colt that threw the INT...running outside the pocket and throwing on the run
Nonsense... good QBs do this all the time. They spot a matchup their guy should win and chuck it up there where he can make a play. Cribbs vs Smith is a no-brainer mismatch and Colt put the ball where Cribbs could take advantage of it (not where only he could get it, but were he SHOULD win the fight for the ball). If Cribbs had been doubled-up, I would be agreeing with you on this. However, he was 1-1 against a DB he could easily over-power and Colt made a good, aggressive play that "real" NFL QBs routinely make.
Comparing the TD to the pick he threw is also BS. The two plays were nothing alike. Colt threw into double (triple?) coverage and badly overthrew his intended target (who wasn't really open to begin with). That WAS a bad decision and a horrible play that was all on Colt. He should have thrown that ball away because there was nothing there. Completely different play from his TD pass to Cribbs.
Look, Colt had a BAD game. There is no other way to look at the full 60 minutes and come away with any other conclusion. There is plenty of fodder in that mess for your critique and only the worst kind of homer would attempt to argue with you over most of it. Colt even admitted the same afterwards. However, you seem hell-bent on minimizing even his successes. I just don't get that.
Like Shurmur said after the game, there is still a LOT to clean up (particularly on offense), but it's good to get the "W." 
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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I disagree with the receiver not being open in the INT.
He was open enough that a good throw would have been a first down.
It wasn't a bad decision, IMO. Just an awful throw.
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Don't feel like arguing, as I'm explicitly NOT trying to bash Colt...but you underestimate Sean Smith, who's a MUCH better CB than Cribbs is WR and he's 6'3 to Cribbs' 6'1...so talking of "mismatch" is way out there...if Smith looks for the ball Cribbs would have to play DB as he would have been mismatched...of course the decision wasn't as bad as the INT as it was a 1on1 at least..but he was the same style QB...running outside the pocket and throwing on the run...not sure a potential INT in the EZ is better than midfield....as often around here: the outcome of a particular play clouds the judgement of the assessment....imagine poker: when you lose AA to KK preflop it's not a bad play just like winning QQ/KK to AA isn't a good play and winning a coin flip AK vs JJ is nothing to write home about long term....coin flip is, for me, Colt's TD pass to Cribbs: 50% inc, 25% TD, 25% INT...something like this if I had to put odds to it
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DB had his back turned, Colt made him pay for it. End of story.
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Legend
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DB had his back turned, Colt made him pay for it. End of story.
thats one thing he is good at doing/recognizing.
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Sean Smith is an average back up who's playing because Will Allen is hurt. He's taller than Cribbs, but Josh is much stronger and is WAY more athletic. That's a mismatch that I'd take any day 1-1 in the end zone.
Even if we go with your odds on the possible outcomes of that play, it's still worth a shot at a TD, don't you think? In this league, you don't get odds that good to score on plays outside of the red zone very often. ::shrug::
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Colt's TD pass to Cribbs: 50% inc, 25% TD, 25% INT...something like this if I had to put odds to it
I actually agree with much of your post but I think your INT odds are a bit high. If the DBs back is turned to the QB when the ball is released and he is purely playing the WR, it's very hard when the ball is in the air to turn, get your feet under you and make a timed leap for the INT... If the DB tries that, there is a very good chance he leans into the WR and gets the pass interference call.... So this is sort of nitpicky but I would say more like 60% incomplete, 25% touchdown, 10% interception and 5% pass interference call on the defense.... 
yebat' Putin
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j/c... I don't see the ragging on the throw to Cribbs. I thought it was terrific. Put it deep in a place only his guy could catch it. He caught it. Isn't that what QBs are supposed to do?
Also, how 'bout that Mohammed Massaquoi? Has he made progress this year or what?
Greg Little is a monster. I said after the draft I thought he was the best pick from the group, but Taylor and Sheard are making that a tough claim to back up.
I agree with you.. MoMass TD at the end was Monster, Little is starting to look very good.. He's rusty and the entire Offense is still in the learning phase,, but some folks aren't allowing for that..
I have no idea how it's all going to shake out in the end, but So far, I'm not really down on the O at all. Just think it's going to take some time to get it all together.
My understanding is that this is a rather complex Offense.. Can't imagine an entire team picking it up over night.. or even in 9 weeks...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I usually see your side of things...however, i dont see it here.
Plays like this are made ALL the time in the NFL. You have a 1 on 1 and the DB is in a disadvantageous position, you throw it every time...Unless the DB is a guy known to turn and INT quickly and your WR isnt a guy who goes up and battles for the ball.
You make that a jump ball every time because the DB not only has to react to the throw he may or may not be expecting (and Smith wasnt expecting it) but he also has to react to the WR...thats bad odds for the defense every time.
Going on what youre saying at the moment, every jump ball throw is a bad QB decision because it has a 25% chance of being picked. Colt and Josh made a play thats made several times a week in the NFL and we made it work. Smith wasnt ready and we made him pay for it...Cribbs is an athlete and furthermore hes willing to outwork everyone hes going up against to make something happen.
Was the Denarious Moore TD last week against Buffalo a bad decision? he threw into double coverage to a WR he felt would make a better play on the ball than the two guys around him and he was right.
1 on 1s are what youre supposed to exploit in the NFL and we did just that. DA used to do it when he was here and it worked out well...Not every deep ball TD needs to look like a deep ball to DeSean Jackson or Mike Wallace...those guys are unique. More likely youre going to get a TD like Calvin Johnson usually gets, or a guy sitting in a small spot in the zone like David Nelson got last week and Scott Chandler got this week.
had an advantage and took it. At worst...that ball gets knocked away.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Are you going to give him any credit for that?
I already did if you read my posts...Sparano, being his typical not-to lose loser, handed to him the underneath stuff and Colt took it...all of his throws outside the TD that drive were "short"...the most important pass was the 4th&4 to Hardesty...that completion was all brains by Colt recognizing the OLB would vacate the zone on a blitz...that, for me, was as good to see as any thing Colt has done yesterday, including the late TD...especially in that situation
Serious question, is blaming someone else for a loss, the way you give credit to someone?
It's a theme you have, You'll give "credit" to someone, only while you also downgrade their opponent, making the credit you gave worthless...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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J/K Stats are for losers, got that out of the way. I had ESPN NFL Primetime on a bit ago and read on the scroll that their Total QBR stats for Week 3 were out. Since I'm working from home today and I'm in a playful mood, I got onto ESPN.com despite my aversion to that site. IF you take this rating system seriously, Colt is ranked 21st in the league after 3 weeks. He's currently ahead of Cassell, Dalton, Cutler, Sanchez, Bradford, Ryan and Vick. he's just behind Kolb, Orton, Newton and A.Smith (with Rivers and Big Ben just above that group). ESPN Link Colt had a well above rating in week 2. Good enough for 11th best performance of the week (according to the rating that is). Week 1 was bad and week 3 wasn't much better, of course. Enjoy the link, it will probably be the last ESPN link I ever post. Again, this is not my attempt to prove anything with the rating system. I'm just adding so we can review and comment.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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King you see that a lot on here and I'm not talking just about django.... Manning completes that pass to Wayne its just because they are great, if we do it... well then it's luck or the DB was out of position.
Obviously we don't do it as often as some of the better players do.. not yet... and that's why we are where we are.... but if you read some posters, we have never made a good play, other teams have just screwed up against us.
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Quote:
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Are you going to give him any credit for that?
I already did if you read my posts...Sparano, being his typical not-to lose loser, handed to him the underneath stuff and Colt took it...all of his throws outside the TD that drive were "short"...the most important pass was the 4th&4 to Hardesty...that completion was all brains by Colt recognizing the OLB would vacate the zone on a blitz...that, for me, was as good to see as any thing Colt has done yesterday, including the late TD...especially in that situation
Serious question, is blaming someone else for a loss, the way you give credit to someone?
It's a theme you have, You'll give "credit" to someone, only while you also downgrade their opponent, making the credit you gave worthless...
I'm just saying what I see...I also said Colt made an NFL throw to win the game as I don't think his dink'n'dunk-ONLY would have led to a TD, you must have missed that...he took what Sparano gave him and that was absolutely the right thing to do but outside of 2 good plays on that drive his "throws" weren't all that impressive. Sparano played it safe, Colt saw it and said: "Ty for the underneath Tony"...I consider it pretty stupid if you have watched Colt struggle for 55min on the sideline and then all of a sudden play him like that...again, I have watched this game with a Phins buddy, and he couldn't believe it and actually started to pull for us to score a TD so that they fire Sparano, lol
It's not a backhanded compiment if that's what you mean...I'm actually 1 of the few that saw some slight improvements in Colt's play from what I wanted to see (pocket awareness, playing in pocket, arm)...it was ugly often but he tried and at the end got rewarded and that's a start
Oh, and yes that pass to Moore and the NYG TD to Cruz were pretty horrible gambles to take...but it's always dependend from the situation your team is in...1?2+? score game, lead? etc etc you can higher the risk and gamble % when your down a lot or up a lot going for the kill..I'm not sure down 0-7, 1st half, 1st&10 from FG distance qualifies but it was gutsy at least and it wasn't the worst thing he did, but how the play unfolded was simply old circus Colt and that's something I don't want to see again...also, I'm not so sure he actually "saw" how Cribbs and Smith were positioned the moment he threw it up...that's giving him credit too easily imho...don't think it's that nuanced...he was on the run, not much time and saw only 1 blue jersey against a white jersey and chucked it
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the more I think about QBR, the more I think it needs to suffer a fast death.
the statistical community should be up-in-arms that it gives so much credence to late game stats compared to early game stats. basically, you will get above average if you lead a 4th quarter comeback, which is what Colt did.
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Trent Dilfer created it... I'm surprised it's lasted this long.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Trent Dilfer created it... I'm surprised it's lasted this long.
It will last a decent amount of time.
It will just be below average, and never get any respect.
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I LIKE the idea of it being out of 100, because the 158.3 or whatever number for a "perfect" QB rating always seemed odd to me...
There's just way to many variables, and to say someone had a better day because of WHEN they through a TD is kind of ridiculous...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Trent Dilfer created it... I'm surprised it's lasted this long.
I'm surprised the QB doesn't get credit for the defense shutting out other teams and scoring defensive touchdowns..... 
yebat' Putin
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Just wanted to post this. Here is my biggest beef with a spread offense.
Vince Young, Jamarcus Russell, Quincy Carter, Tim Tebow, Akili Smith, Pat White, Joey Harrington, David Carr, Alex Smith, etc. Teams keep looking at these zone read option and spead option QBs and think they can develop them as pro players and they just can't do it. They never developed the foundation of understanding a defense BEFORE learning how to run the offense they're playing in.
Josh Freeman is the only guy to break the example. Spread offenses are ruining potential QBs.
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you need to distinguish more. most teams in college run some variation of the spread offense now. some are more passing styles, while others are more spread-option running styles. and there are more examples of QBs breaking the mold. Oklahoma runs a spread offense with incredibly simple reads from a shotgun formation. that did not seem to slow down Bradford's progression. Cam Newton has had a pretty good NFL start (though I expect a normal rookie slowdown) coming out of a spread system with no offseason. also, Joey Harrington and Akili Smith ran the same offense in college as Aaron Rodgers. if you include 2, then you need to include all 3 plus the other Tedford guys (from wiki) Quote:
Tedford coached each of the following first round NFL draft picks at the quarterback position:
Fresno State
Trent Dilfer 6th overall 1994, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
David Carr 1st overall 2002, Houston Texans
Oregon
Akili Smith 3rd overall 1999, Cincinnati Bengals
Joey Harrington 3rd overall 2002, Detroit Lions
California
Kyle Boller 19th overall 2003, Baltimore Ravens
Aaron Rodgers 24th overall 2005, Green Bay Packers
Tedford also coached Billy Volek, a backup quarterback for the San Diego Chargers, and A.J. Feeley, a backup quarterback for the St. Louis Rams.
#gmstrong
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Sam Bradford didn't play in a spread option offense. He played in a spread set based on a timing passing offense. Huge difference. It wasn't a one-read, then tuck and run offense. Bradford routinely went through progressions and broke down coverages. He just did it (albeit way too often) out of the shotgun, but he certainly learned how to read a defense. There is no question about that.
I'll give you A-Rod but not Newton, to small of a sample size.
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Captain Checkdown 2.0
captain no one on our team ever gets open
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but players on the other team do...
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It's time for people to come to grips with reality: Colt McCoy sucks.
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I'm not ready to say he sucks yet ...... but he is trending .......
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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It's time for people to come to grips with reality: Colt McCoy sucks.
Yes, he does.
No starting QB in the league throws more ducks and non-spirals than McCoy. Nobody. He doesn't have any anticipation when throwing to receivers, which means he doesn't know to throw the ball before a receiver is open, but waits until the receiver has made his break and is looking back towards him. The horrid number of double-clutches is an expression of that problem.
There's quite a bit more, but it's kinda pointless.
I think the real question is now whether or not he's going to be able to develop into a QB greater than the inferior player he is today. I had put those odds at 50/50 a couple of weeks ago. I feel they are decidedly less than that today.
This is year two for him after gaining a HUGE amount of experience in college. He needs to be showing some positive strides. Some of the mistakes he's making now are bad for college level players, and certainly not attributable to a "new system."
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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He'll make a better rancher than a QB at this rate...and soon!
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j/c
I have been watching Colt closely now for the past 3 weeks. A few things jump out at me and the most glaring is his indecisiveness once he hits his gather step during his drop. Once he hits that foot he should have already decided on if his #1 is where he is going with the ball. The next split second should be to the 2nd option and then finally the check down. He just does not appear to be able to handle this offense comfortably yet, which is understandable. However, I worry he is developing some really bad habits.
By week 9 of this season, if he is still unsure of where to deliver the ball, then I have to think we will be looking for a better talent via the draft. I'd be interested to see what Holmgrem has done in his drafts regarding the draft position of QB's. If he tends to wait until the 2nd or 3rd round, then I believe he has a 5 year plan for Colt, and we will be asked to be patient with more mediocre to dismal performances at the QB position.
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Devil's advocate here  Quote:
He doesn't have any anticipation when throwing to receivers, which means he doesn't know to throw the ball before a receiver is open, but waits until the receiver has made his break and is looking back towards him.
Sure he knows. We know. He knows.
So is it lack of anticipation, not knowing, or not trusting WR's to make the right break at the right time. This is a timing offense. He practices with these guys all week. Is the timing down or is it less than trustworthy? You anticipate the break 8 yards out and throw to a spot but dude doesn't break.
I believe you when you say you've watched film and the receivers are getting open. But are they getting open when and where they were supposed to get open? Once the timing has broke down there's an issue. "It's alright to have a hitch in your swing, but when you have a flaw in your hitch, you're in trouble." - Leon Wagner.
This offense is all about timing and throwing to a spot. Does everyone know where that spot is and have the ability to get there at the right time? Because once they don't, there's a hitch. It could make things look real bad.
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I think the real question is now whether or not he's going to be able to develop into a QB greater than the inferior player he is today. I had put those odds at 50/50 a couple of weeks ago. I feel they are decidedly less than that today.
Them there odds drop pretty dang fast eh. One week, by all evaluations, I got a chance. The next week, after playing pretty much the same as I did last week, my chances are decidedly less? I realize I have to improve game to game. But I just went from playing a a handful of chump teams to playing a very solid team with the #1 defense whose offense put up TD's on back-to-back plays putting me way behind which pretty much changed any game plan I came in with. Why you be a hard boss? 
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Some of the mistakes he's making now are bad for college level players, and certainly not attributable to a "new system."
He's making mistakes he didn't make in college which would seem precisely attributable to a new system. Especially if the system is dependent on other team members to be on the same page in reads, routes and timing and they could be struggling also. Throw in drive-killing drops, penalties and inaccurate throws and it's a team effort to look bad and lose just as it is to determinedly pull out a win in the last seconds.
Look Toad, I can't be on here every day to constantly correct you. You're going to have to get some of this on your own.
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j/k
Colt McCoy = Tim Couch
I was a Tim Couch fan but this isn't an expansion franchise anymore and our o-line is much better.
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 830
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Posts: 830 |
Tim Couch would rock with this team.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,577 Likes: 8
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,577 Likes: 8 |
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I was a Tim Couch fan but this isn't an expansion franchise anymore and our o-line is much better.
40% of our line is better, 60% is very much expansion quality.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
GO ROCKETS
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Devil's advocate here
Dub, who you think you're foolin'? You can drop the "advocate" part. We all know you're the devil!
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I believe you when you say you've watched film and the receivers are getting open. But are they getting open when and where they were supposed to get open?
Great question!
It's your lucky day, because I do have a logical answer.
You said it yourself, and are correct when saying that the NCO (as my good man Clemmy wishes me to use ) is a timing-based offense. To that end, how would we know good timing from bad? Well, for starters the most simplistic way to start diagnosing that is to know the entire basis of the offense is to get the ball off in rhythm. Rhythm means hitting your drop and throwing in a clean motion. Too many times Colt has hit his last step in his drop, cocked the ball....and cocked it again. On many throws this year I've seen Colt not throw the ball on his drop even though the receiver was just at that very moment making his move and turning his head.
So yeah, if you're gonna get me on pure technical semantics (which you effectively have  ) of course he knows he's not throwing on time. What's going on is that he's simply afraid to throw the ball. It's a confidence issue, and he's questioning far too many throws right now. It's entirely possible he's not confident because he doesn't believe, but I don't believe that myself. Really, truly, and simply, he's afraid sometimes. In college he never had to anticipate throws and routes like he does now. Some never can adapt to the small windows of the NFL. Quinn is the perfect example of that. With Colt, he has such limited tools that the rest of his game has to be perfect in order for him to be the man. Learning to anticipate the throw and getting the ball off on time is a basic fundamental he must get and quickly. It's his second year. Now is the time when he should be making solid strides.
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Them there odds drop pretty dang fast eh. One week, by all evaluations, I got a chance. The next week, after playing pretty much the same as I did last week, my chances are decidedly less? I realize I have to improve game to game.
I can only speak for myself here when I say I have a built-in timeline for how quickly a qb must develop to be a good player. It's my opinion that in the last month Colt has not improved an inch, which is in essence a big step backwards. The throws he's made the last two weeks, outside of a gift-wrapped game-winning drive where the Fish went into prevent, have been just simply horrid decisions. They are the kinds of braincramp screwups you just can't have out of a 2nd year QB who comes to the NFL playing such a huge number of college snaps. Remember, there's a graph out there that shows the success rate of QB's who played more games in college is markedly higher than those who don't play many games. Colt isn't some 1st year rookie who only played one year in college. The tools that were supposed to overcome his undersized and underpowered frame are his leadership, mobility, and football smarts. The first two are there. The last one is the big problem, and I'm actually shocked by it.
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He's making mistakes he didn't make in college which would seem precisely attributable to a new system. Especially if the system is dependent on other team members to be on the same page in reads, routes and timing and they could be struggling also.
If his mistakes were system related, I'd agree. But that isn't what i'm referring to. The Titans dropped two int's today. Neither pass wes system-related. They were simply dumb and inaccurate throws. The last one they did catch was just some rollout. He threw the ball to God only knows who.
I can see a point that says he looks out of sync with his receivers causing him to clutch the ball and lead defenders to his receivers. However, it's my opinion that his guys have been open, but that Colt has just flat been afraid to let the ball go before the receivers make their breaks. Those are mistakes acceptable to a guy who doesn't have any experience. Colt has two training camps and 12 starts under his belt with a wealth of college experience to draw upon. With his reported intelligence, he's clearly behind the curve here. Quote:
Look Toad, I can't be on here every day to constantly correct you. You're going to have to get some of this on your own.
That's it...you're now officially off my Christmas card list!
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
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actually on the pick someone posted from nfl the replay of that and Colt is under pressure immediatly. The center and LG both have 1 blocking asignment and blow it big time. Guy goes right buy them and is in colts face. Both Hillis and (I think it was Hardesty) are just up field making their turns and open.
Sadly Colt had no choice but to move and I mean now. After that he gets away from the defender and as you said throws the ball to... I still cant see anyone.
He had to move, the play was sound and if the line had held would have been yet another 4-7 yd gain. Once out of the pocket he should have thrown the ball away with no one open and he was smashed as throwing it so pressure was coming again. Just a poor choice at the end of the play on Colts part.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Colt McCoy is here to prove you
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