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If we have the number one pick then it will probably be apparent that McCoy isn't the answer
Not necessarily true. Perhaps we have the #1 pick overall because Atlanta had a really crappy year (Ryan gets injured?).
So my question is this: If we have the #1 pick because of Atlanta's pick what does Colt have to do for us to not draft luck?
Follow-up question: Let's say we pull a Browns and win our last 2 games to drop us out of the #1 spot. What does Colt have to do for us to not draft Landry Jones Okla? or Matt Barkeley USC, Nick Foles Ari, Kirk Cousins MSU, Ryan Lindley SDSU or Robert Griffen Baylor? . I think all these guys will be taken by somebody in the 1st round and a half of whichever draft they are in (note some are underclassmen and may not be available in this year's draft).
So basically it's the same question: What does Colt need to do to keep us from drafting a Qb in the 1st round? I think it will be different if we have a shot for Luck rather than for Landry Jones and yet still different for the other guys.
I don't know that I have an answer. Certainly if we win the Super Bowl McCoy/Wallace has done we'll enough to keep the #1 QB job. If we earn the #1 overall pick then certainly they didn't. Other than that I just think we will know it when we see it.
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Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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So my question is this: If we have the #1 pick because of Atlanta's pick what does Colt have to do for us to not draft luck?
look like he's going to be the next Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Rivers, etc.
it's not going to happen. I think Colt is a good QB and he will very likely become a top15 guy in the NFL. That is good enough to be in the Josh Freeman area, which is not playoff competitive every year, but is pretty good.
Andrew Luck has the skill package to potentially become an elite QB. it doesn't mean he will get there, but he definitely has the package. you cannot risk missing out on a QB that will near-guarantee you playoffs every year for the next 10 years.
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caveat: let's say that Colt leads us to 9/10 wins and has a near-probowl year. he achieves top15 status instead of us thinking he can get there in future seasons (which moves his ceiling up to top10 status, which is near-elite). we are pretty confident that he is going to be a very good QB going forward.
in that case, we could shop Luck. we could see what people are willing to trade for him. or, we could shop Colt. if he is that proven after this season, he could easily fetch a 1st and 2nd rounder. Luck might fetch more than 2 1st rounders and 2 2nd rounders (because of the higher ceiling and longer contract at a reasonable price). if that team had high picks this year and were in the NFC, then it would at least be a strong consideration.
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To me what he has to do is at the very least show he has the ability to be able to rise to the challenge when the chips are down. Sundays game in the 4th quarter was the perfect opportunity to prove that, but when all was said and done he and the rest of the team folded.
I'm not putting all the blame on him and I know all of the circumstances of the off-season, new coaches and new schemes but it would have been nice to see him rise to the challenge and take this team on his back. To me that is what franchise QB is all about and if by seasons end he has shown he is un-able to do that then we gotta draft Luck if given the chance.
And to me with two first round picks if all the scenarios play out that way then it's Luck or bust imo.
It's a long season though, anything can happen but one thing is certain he will be given his fair shot to prove what he can do and by seasons end we will have a good idea of what Colt McCoy can and cannot do in this league.
I'm just in wait and see mode right now.
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So my question is this: If we have the #1 pick because of Atlanta's pick what does Colt have to do for us to not draft luck?
look like he's going to be the next Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Rivers, etc.
it's not going to happen.
This. I'd go a step further too. Colt wouldn't have to "look like" the next Manning or Rogers he'd literally have to put up Manning/Rogers/Brees type numbers this year. AKA not gonna happen.
You take Andrew Luck and never look back.
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So my question is this: If we have the #1 pick because of Atlanta's pick what does Colt have to do for us to not draft luck?
Win or at least not be the reason for the losses.
As for QB,, I'm confused by all this negative talk on colt.. Did he have a stellar game,, NO.. But damn, the way some folks are talking, he sucked.
I guess putting the ball in the hands of receivers and having them drop it is all on Colt? Maybe he was throwing it too hard.., wait, he doesn't have an arm, how could that be 
#GMSTRONG
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2nd String
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Cleveland fans are pathetic. Giving up on Colt after one game and already talking about Luck.
Jesus.
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Ok,, I now have new found respect for you... 
#GMSTRONG
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I STILL wouldn't draft Luck if I had to trade up and get him.. if he fell to us.. then maybe.. but trading up for him.. NO WAY!!
we need to build the pieces around the QB so when the time does come drafting a QB, we can just plug him in and put him around talented players.
I'd focus on RT and adding another WR in the mix, and in the later rounds possibly look at bringing in another guard to sit behind Lavaou and Pinkston.
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who is giving up on Luck?
ok, there are a few, but a majority of the posts in here actually have been to the extent of hypotheticals with some praise for what is expected from Colt the rest of the way.
when I saw this thread title, I expected a bunch of "I give up on Colt" posts, but really, there are very few.
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Jesus.
I have to say, if he's available, I'd probably trade up to get him.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Jesus.
I have to say, if he's available, I'd probably trade up to get him.
I don't know. I want to see some scouting reports on his arm strength.
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Jesus.
I have to say, if he's available, I'd probably trade up to get him.
I don't know. I want to see some scouting reports on his arm strength.
Nah we need a RT, a backup RB, a better defense and a new punter first. Maybe then Jesus would have the pieces around him to succeed.
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Jesus.
I have to say, if he's available, I'd probably trade up to get him.
I don't know. I want to see some scouting reports on his arm strength.
Why? He breaks the huddle, hits the ground with a stick and the defense parts. 
yebat' Putin
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Jesus.
I have to say, if he's available, I'd probably trade up to get him.
I don't know. I want to see some scouting reports on his arm strength.
Nah we need a RT, a backup RB, a better defense and a new punter first. Maybe then Jesus would have the pieces around him to succeed.
Well, we can pickup Moses for that backup RB spot. I hear he's really good at finding a way through the sea of a defense.
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Cleveland fans are pathetic. Giving up on Colt after one game and already talking about Luck.
Jesus.
Colt has played 9 games, and I'm not giving up on him.
But the odds are very, very high that we will be drafting in the top 5.
We were on track to win 3-6 games this year, and right out of the gate we dropped one of the most winnable ones.
The odds of us drafting in the top 5, which were already high, have been increased.
To all those saying this thread was knee-jerk or premature -- would you feel confident wagering that we won't be in the thick of the running for a top 5 pick? Anyone? P.M. if you want some action. 
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P.M. if you want some action.
That's kind of gross.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Cleveland fans are pathetic. Giving up on Colt after one game and already talking about Luck.
I know all of the cliches, athletes need to have thick skin and blahblahblah.. bit I agree with you here. Imagine you are a second year guy who has just completed your first official start as "the guy" and the whole team played poorly and you go check out what your fans are saying, knowing it probably isn't going to be good but there is a thread talking about drafting your replacement... I know we aren't the only fan base to do stuff like this but.... no wonder people don't want to play here.
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Jesus.
I have to say, if he's available, I'd probably trade up to get him.
He's already the third-stringer in Denver.
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Cleveland fans are pathetic. Giving up on Colt after one game and already talking about Luck.
Jesus.
This.
Sad thing is that I have pimped Andrew Luck from the beginning.
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I just reread the whole thread. There is only ONE poster suggesting they have given up on Colt.
I think there is a level-headed way to discuss what would happen if Luck is there when we pick . . .
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I just reread the whole thread. There is only ONE poster suggesting they have given up on Colt.
I think there is a level-headed way to discuss what would happen if Luck is there when we pick . . .
Not after one game.
yebat' Putin
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All Pro
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If we have the number 1 overall, you take him. If we have 2 first rounders, you address team needs with Tackle and WR in the first round. WR being 1a and tackle being 1b. Then with our 2 number 2's we take Safety and another OL.
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I wouldn't trade Aaron Rodgers for five first round picks.
You say projections aren't sure things; yet you are counting on those other guys. Luck is a much surer thing than any of those players you mentioned, and plays a much more important position. If I don't have Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, Tom Brady or Phillip Rivers, I draft Andrew Luck.
I definitely respect that. I'm not out to really say that Luck is or isn't a sure thing ... BUT ... if you give me 5 picks even in the 16 to 25 range ... I would trade Aaron Rodgers for that (who himself was taken 24th don't forget).
But just looking at THIS year's class (way too early to evaluate I know) ... we could already have had a Solder who played well *(so far) for New England to sure up our RT spot .. Came back with Brooks Reed as another rotational DEnd .. in the second. Thrown in Kendrick Ellis or Vincent Brown as one more weapon ... and that's just assuming we only got a 1,2 and 3 for luck ... most likely it would take another 1st and 2nd (especially if we traded down to the 15 to 25 range).
We would STILL have another couple picks the next year, and while Luck might end up being more polished and more of a sure thing than any of those guys, what is the rate of success that makes the deal work? 2 firsts, 2 seconds, a 3rd and a 4th? Maybe another 5th? If even 4 or 5 of those 7ths pan out, 2 are impact players, another 2 are starters and 2 to 3 more are solid backups and special teamers, then you have to think 7 players for 1 any day. The bust rate of 7 players will ALWAYS be lower than that for 1.
That's my only point in all of this. PLUS, you could still use the extra picks and take a QB in a year or two anyways.... I just always go back to the idea that neither Heckert nor Holmgren have drafted a QB higher than Kolb (37 overall), so if you can win with lower drafted guys, why not keep that formula and add an extra Tackle, D-End, Wideout in the process?
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But show me a SINGLE player in the last decade that was a sure thing.
Off the top of my head, Joe Thomas and Julius Peppers.
I don't remember the Peppers situation pre draft (didn't pay as much attention to the draft then). But as much as Thomas was "safe" ... he wasn't sure. There has never been a guarantee on any player that they are 100% destined for canton or even the pro bowl. Just because you say a guy is a sure thing and he turns out to be one ... it doesn't mean he is. Because for every time you (or someone) gets one right, there is the Ryan Leafs, Jamarcus Russels, and other big monnie players who look great but never develop.
I'm not doubting your specific ability to evaluate or anyone's I guess ... but you just honestly never know. Even if a guy like Manning or Luck is a 99.9% chance of being the best ever... there is still that .01% that he tears an ACL on the first play of the first practice, gets staff infection, and never plays another down ...
As Browns fans I expect all to at least recognize the possibility 
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If we have the number 1 overall, you take him. If we have 2 first rounders, you address team needs with Tackle and WR in the first round. WR being 1a and tackle being 1b. Then with our 2 number 2's we take Safety and another OL.
+1
Can we just close this thread after this post? It's all that really needs to be said.
Ugh...we're already talking draft strategy for 2012.
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But as much as Thomas was "safe" ... he wasn't sure.
The overwhelming consensus was that if you drafted Joe Thomas, you were getting a perennial Pro Bowler and a solidified left tackle for a decade.
Could he have blown both knees on the first play of training camp? Sure, but barring that, the guy was a consensus sure thing.
Yes, of course, there is no such thing as a 'sure thing'.
But there are some guys who come close, and a very large percentage of those work out.
Everyone throws out names like Leaf or Russell, but those guys were never even close to being consensus 'sure things'. There are very few of those guys.
It's a subjective argument, I guess, so there's room for debate, but these are the guys that I would say were considered consensus sure things in past drafts --
Ndamukong Suh
Joe Thomas
Julius Peppers
Courtney Brown
Peyton Manning
Orlando Pace
Tony Mandarich
Brian Bosworth
Bo Jackson
John Elway
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I would add Charles Woodson and Adrian Peterson to that list (though Adrian had injury concerns when he came out), but yeah, that looks about right.
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I just reread the whole thread. There is only ONE poster suggesting they have given up on Colt.
I think there is a level-headed way to discuss what would happen if Luck is there when we pick . . .
Not after one game.
everything we discuss as fans on these boards are based on hypotheticals. this is just one more hypothetical. it's silly to say noone is allowed to discuss it (there's this saying about if you don't like the thread title, you don't have to click on it )
and the biggest hypothetical on here was started saying what if Matt Ryan gets hurt and Atlanta gives us the #1 overall pick. what would Colt have to do for us to make us not think about Andrew Luck? that's an interesting question to me and apparently others (that has nothing to do with bashing Colt, but everything to do with balancing potentials)
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I'll agree with you. When I think about the entire argument though ... I can't help but feel as though it's about portfolio risk (haha can you tell I'm a numbers guy?)...
Without knowing the PURE numbers I just assume that the net risk of a "basket" of players ... some combination of a few first, second and third round picks is lower than the risk that any given player has in them.
Now I can't suggest that Luck is or isn't the next Elway or Manning in terms of his projected ability and his overall projected levels of being a franchise QB ... but if we get a handful of picks and even 1 or two turn into game-changers in the likes of Clay Matthews and DeSean Jackson (late first and early second) ... then the extra picks could be contributors and possibly starters ... then we DO come out ahead in my book.
Even if one of the picks busts, we could and should still have another 4 or 5 picks in the deal who could make up for that. Best case scenario we get 5 starters and 1 rotational player ... but I guess the odds have it that MORE picks (which would be quality picks as well) could help the team better than the risk of one unproven yet promising player...
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The overwhelming consensus was that if you drafted Joe Thomas, you were getting a perennial Pro Bowler and a solidified left tackle for a decade.
Is that why one draft scout said this:
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Positives:
By far the best true left tackle in the draft. He has a big frame with long arms and is very athletic for his size. He possesses good quickness, agility, and speed. He's a great pass blocker, but he also a very effective run blocker. He has great footwork and uses his hands well... delivers a very effective punch. He works very hard on every play and finishes well. Very competitive... attacks the defender.
Negatives:
There are no major weaknesses in his game.
Projection:
Should step in and start wherever he ends up and should be a very good pass blocker in a pro-style offense. There is a very good chance he will be the first offensive tackle off the board, possibly even a top-five pick.
Oh wait, they said that about Robert Gallery. How is his perennial pro-bowl left tackle career going? From what I understand he became a decent guard.
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I still think if we are in position to Draft Luck....you take him...you don't evne think about it...you just turn in the card...
This is no different then when the Chargers took Philip Rivers(well swapped QB with NY)....even though they had Drew Brees on the roster...
Yes Colt McCoy just may be another Drew Brees....but he also may not be....I would like to have an insurance policy like the Chargers had with Brees and Rivers....if McCoy turns into Brady...you cna move Luck, If McCoy ends up sucking, you move forward with Luck...
its a win-win situation to take Luck....Luck sits the bench year 1 learns the playbook and you let Colts have a full second year....no giving into fans chanting for Luck...if Colt is healthy he plays.....and if colt can't hack it in his 2nd full season....going into year 3...you move forward with Luck...
If Colt pans out, you may look into packaging luck to move up in the draft and take someone else at a position of need.
QB is way too important...and this team has not had solid QB play in a long time....we can't afford to pass on Luck if we are in a position to take him...unless Colt is lights out this year....a good QB can be the difference between a 6-10 seasons and a 10-6 season....we can't risk passing on Luck if he is available at our draft slot....no matter what...if Luck is on the board when we pick, there should be no hesitation to turn in the card.....and i don't think there will be...Holmgren was interested in Bradford, but the price was too high to move up...if holmgren could have got the trade at the price he wanted...Bradford would bee a Brown today....no way we pass on Luck if were in position to have him...no way,,.,,,
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I still think if we are in position to Draft Luck....you take him...you don't evne think about it...you just turn in the card...
Well, i don't believe we'll be in the position to pick him since I think he'll go first..
But that aside, if by some chance we are that bad and the blame can legitimately be place at the feet of Colt McCoy, then really you almost gotta go with him
But the other thought is that if we are in a position to get Luck, someone will offer us a boat load of picks to get our choice. especially since the money risk has been lessened with the new CBA..
So, do you take luck if Colt isn't the clear culprit.. I'd say no.. then you take the picks you can get and go nuts getting some tall talent.. with what we already have and the picks we could acquire, we'd be able to fix a lot of issues in one season.
And still get another QB later.
But hell, that's JMO
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That makes tons of sense... if he falls to us.
I'm not sure anybody would disagree with you that you draft Luck if he is on the board when we pick. The worst thing that happens is you end up in a Philly-esque sort of situation (people beating down the doors for one or more of your QBs).
I think what the conversation is morphed into is if you have to package together some serious picks to go after him. Would you want to give up so many picks to go get him?
I'm hearing the arguments that you don't pass on a franchise QB, but I think I would pass. We have too many other needs to go chasing after the sexy QB pick along with half the league. It would hurt to see another team grab a talent like Luck, but I focus on building up talent at several other positions on this roster, vs just one.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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I completely agree with that line of thinking ... or at least I am inclined to do so ... with the 1st round pick from Atlanta, the 1st and 2nd we own... we (hopefully at least) turn our 1st rounder (or atlanta's if they go 1-15) into another first later in the draft and a second as well as another 1st the next year in 2013? I would assume the trade would vary depending on how far down we drop .. but if we got a 1st and 2nd plus a 5th to trade from 5th to 17th in the Mangini deal for Sanchez ... I assume to drop that far for luck would be a pair of 1's and a 2 ... and then a 3, with maybe a 4 as well? Maybe a 1,2,4 and then a 1,2,3 the next year? ... Trying not to be biased here, but if you drop to 15 to 20 and it is Luck ... you gotta get something big in return ...
The point is ... we walk away from the deal with 2 picks in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round ... plus the late rounders we have anyway. We then also have 2 picks in the 1st and maybe second of 2013 ... more than enough ammunition to move up for a top QB in that draft if McCoy couldn't blossom in his third season with the newly acquired talent.
But man ... to pass up on Luck might be hard ... but with the picks I just mentioned we could take a playmaking WR and the best LB/DE in the first. Best RT prospect and a top FS in the second. The opposite of the LB/DE (the one we didn;t get in the first). in the third with another top flight CB to develop. Add in another LB, DE, DT, or RB in the fourth (or package some of the 4ths, 5ths, and 6ths to move back up for playmakers in the 3rd and 2nd).
And when you effectively complete (within reason) the youth and talent movement on our team ... you will see that all of our major weaknesses we see right now ... RT, WR, LB's, FS ... they are all completed. PLUS if Colt can't win with that ... you still have a pair of 1's and maybe a pair of 2's to move up and take whatever QB you want in 2013 ... but at least by then a lot of your players are bonafide starters with experience ... and the QB comes in like Flacco or Sanchez and is only asked to manage the game for a year while the talent around him wins ...
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Joined: Sep 2011
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2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 293 |
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Cleveland fans are pathetic. Giving up on Colt after one game and already talking about Luck.
Jesus.
Colt has played 9 games, and I'm not giving up on him.
But the odds are very, very high that we will be drafting in the top 5.
We were on track to win 3-6 games this year, and right out of the gate we dropped one of the most winnable ones.
The odds of us drafting in the top 5, which were already high, have been increased.
To all those saying this thread was knee-jerk or premature -- would you feel confident wagering that we won't be in the thick of the running for a top 5 pick? Anyone? P.M. if you want some action.
So your argument for picking a new QB is because we will be picking high.
This team would probably be picking high with Tom Brady at the helm, we lack tons of talent as well as depth, not to mention we play the Steelers and Ravens twice a year so playoffs are almost out of the question until we have a solid core.
If the Browns are POSITIVE that Colt isn't anything more than a Kyle Orton and they're POSITIVE that Luck is the next Peyton Manning then go for it, but if Colt shows progress and proves he can be a franchise QB then stick with him and actually get some receivers.
The dude hasn't even played a full 16 games, give him a break.
Last edited by LittleGregBig; 09/13/11 09:51 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,225 Likes: 212
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,225 Likes: 212 |
I don't think there is much of a question on do we draft Luck if we have the #1 pick. Clearly it is yes. It would take a heck of a lot to pry that pick out of my hands, starting with 2 first rounders this year and a 1st and 2nd next year. For starters to even get my attention and start a conversation about how much more it would take.
I think the tougher question is what do we do when we win our last 2 games and end up with the 2nd or 3rd pick in the draft. Luck is taken #1 by Seattle or Indy. Do we take Landry Jones? Or if Landry goes 2nd do we take the #3 guy?
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
So your argument for picking a new QB is because we will be picking high.
Where did I make an argument for picking a new QB?
I merely stated that we currently have very high odds of landing or being close to the #1 pick, where Andrew Luck is expected to be taken, and opened the floor for discussion.
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The dude hasn't even played a full 16 games, give him a break.
A break from what?
You're acting like I'm labeling him a bum and calling for his head.
Personally, from what I've seen, I like him, and hope he's with the team for awhile either as a starter or a backup.
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Joined: Sep 2011
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2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 293 |
Wasn't really meant to be all directed at you more towards the people who are blaming Colt for that disaster on Sunday. I got the impression you were saying you wanted a qb if we were in the top 5 just because, my bad.
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