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Losing would be a lot easier to accept if we were competitive or showing signs of progressing.
We're showing signs of regressing and we're not at all competitive.
The buck stops with the head coach.
#GMSTRONG
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What exactly did Pat do to earn a head coaching job??
nothing! I was pissed when we picked him to be the head coach.
How can you hand the keys of the castle to a man who has never been a coach anywhere at any age?
I have more head coach experience than him.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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You know, it isn't the record so much that bothers me. It's the way we lose.
This right here is spot on. 
We are proud fans.
And for what we suffer through.
This is all we ask for.
Yeah we want a Superbowl.
Yeah we want to brag about giving out beat downs.
What we do not want to hear anymore is excuses about how the team "battled", after getting their arses handed to them in the first 15 minutes of the game.
Stop looking like quiters.
If you are going to lose, lose with a [profanity laced] chip on your teams shoulder.
And then I can respect "we battled".
I cannot respect what I have seen so far this year.
Is that too much for IMHO the most loyal fan base in all of sports to ask for?
Einstein could not even fathom the mathematical improbabilities of the Browns woes.
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Saying something like this used to a guy tossed from here but at the risk of being obvious......
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The Official Fire Holmgren Thread
This is the most idiotic thread and title ever posted on here.
I'm going to say something I never, ever say.....If you don't like it - leave - quit watching. Anything but post this moronic crap on here.
It's so irritating to read the same 3 or 4 guys whine and moan after every game and then all week long until the next game.
At the risk of alienating the remaining people on here that will talk to me I must say, again, that if anyone thought this team was winning more than 6 game this year they were either fooling themselves or they are morons.
This team is playing pretty much to their skill level.
Unfortunately, some of the posters on here can't make that claim...... 
It's still a free forum where we're able express ideas and opinions and if you don't like it, leave the board or don't read the thread. I've read nothing in your post except contrary venom. No reasoning, no explanation other than "thery're playing to their skill level." If that's the case, then they're playing at the wrong level, Shumur is coaching at the wrong level, and Holmgren hired the wrong people. Otto, frankly I don't care if you agree with my opinion or not, or if you like my post or not, but your insistence that I shouldn't post it here makes me think you're rather small minded, and I think that is moronic.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Losing would be a lot easier to accept if we were competitive or showing signs of progressing.
We're showing signs of regressing and we're not at all competitive.
The buck stops with the man who hired the head coach.
Fixed it.
This sums my thinking up precisely.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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What exactly did Pat do to earn a head coaching job??
Good ol' Uncle Fritz being buddy buddy with Holmgren, that's what.
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Legend
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I could not figure out what Shurmur's qualifications were .... but he's the head coach ... so we need to stick with him. However, we need a professional offensive coordinator/play caller next year. We cannot go through another season like this one. Shurmur can then be the head coach, and evaluate with a clear eye, instead of with his own biases that occur naturally when it's your own specific design and direct input being critiqued. Shurmur needs to step away from the coordinator level and become a head coach. I was worried about Jauron when we hired him, because his teams have always struggled to stop the run. I hoped that the fact that Heckert all but said that Jauron was going to run the team's defense, (and not the other way around) and that we would use bigger LB and DL than a "normal" Jauron defense gave me some hope. Playing pathetic teams early in the year gave a lot of people false hope as to the effectiveness of the defense .... but many of us saw that we played backup QBs and backup RBs ..... and still struggled on occasion .... Now we're past the real cupcake part of the schedule. We still have Jacksonville and St Louis ..... but we can't count either of those teams as gimmes. Jacksonville has a decent defense ... and could well shut us out. St Louis has Bradford back, and they look like they are starting to come together after struggling early. heck, their defense got 2 Safeties in their game today against the Cardinals.  Arizona might be a game we should win ...... but if they have Kolb back by then ..... who knows? That game is wedged in between 4 games against Baltimore and Pittsburgh ..... so we could be badly beat up at that point. Anyway ..... my point is that we played a much easier schedule this year ... yet we may wind up with the same record .... or worse ..... and a QB who has played worse than he did last year in many ways ...... with a lower scoring offense ...... our power running game blown up ...... and a whole lot of questions. I think that there will be changes ..... but I don't think that front office/head coach should be considered at this point. (unless he melts like Palmer did) I do, however, think that personnel, offensive coordinator and play caller are definite areas that will warrant close examination.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You're right we played our easiest schedule in 4 years. The Nfc West is notoriously bad, and we played an indy team that doesn't have manning. What are the excuses going to be next year when we play the nfc east ?? I expected us this year to win 6 on the low side, and 8 on the high. That's not asking much since we won 5 the past 2 seasons.
All I know is the holmgren era is 8-16. That's pretty much on line with the butch davis, and romeo crenell eras. Until the quarterback position is fixed, we will continue to flounder. I expect this front office to go all in to find the franchise quarterback that could lead this team to the playoffs on a yearly basis.
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The way we lose...exactly. we don't lose a close game on a last minute FG. We come out like bumbling idiots and it goes down hill from there.
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People can call this thread moronic all they want. It still remains that Mike Holmgren showed up, took a look around, saw what kind of pathetic shape this franchise has been in since 1999, saw how delected and depressed the fanbase was, and his answer to all of that? Pat Shurmur. Need anything more be said? How seriously did Holmgren take this situation? Seriously enough to hire his old friend's nephew, a relatively inexperience OC who did a poor job in that position- and hands him the reigns of HC *and* OC. What a crock.
And for the "You can't keep hiring a new staff every few years" folks, I can only say that "yes, you can" when every staff you hire is clearly incompetent right off the bat.
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Who was there to hire? I believe Shurmur was a last minute we need a body in a hurry hire.
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Legend
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I would love to meet the man that could win with these players.
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If we fire MH we won't have the moola to sign another Osama Young. If that happens we'll be bad like the Colts, Fins and Hawks,   Lets hire some real football players and forget about firing anybody for awhile.
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Quote:
The Official Fire Holmgren Thread
Jesus.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
GO ROCKETS
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2nd String
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How about instead of firing Holmgren we just "fire" CalDawg from this website? Quit wasting my time with stupid threads.
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Yes let's fire him and start this process all over again until we fire the next guy.
Your average Browns fan and his buddies could do a more capable job.
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I really want to know when the excuses stop.
Herman Edwards said it best " you play to win the game! When your no longer doing that get out! Retire! "
Holmgren, heckert, and shurmur can take their excuses and flush them with the rest of their personal garbage.
Excuses are for losers. The fact is there is not motivator in this organization....there is no one these guys can rally around.
I will not resort for settling for losing.....
Jamal Lewis had it right when he said: "I'm not cut from this cloth" he was meaning the cloth of a loser...the man expected to win....he didn't pray he would win, or hope he would win, he expected to win no excuses.
I can see the writing on the wall....6-10 next year at best and Lerner will then have no choice but to can this crew
These excuses for losing has got to stop....losers make excuses, winners expect to win.
And then when the next regime produces the same or worse results, then what? Fire them too? Makes perfect sense to me. 
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I could get on board with a fire Shurmur thread. Holmgren, not so much.
Why not? Shurmur was Holmgren's man for the job. I'd scrap them both, go ahead with no president or make Heckert assume that role for the remainder of the season and give Jauron the HC duties and ask Heckert to hire Jauron's choice for an OC.
It's incredible how poor this organization is being run from Holmgren in the front office to Shurmur on the sidelines.
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Quote:
How about instead of firing Holmgren we just "fire" CalDawg from this website? Quit wasting my time with stupid threads.
 What you do with your time is up to you, blaming me for wasting it is the stupid part of this thread. Right up there with having nothing to back up your blather.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I have yet to read one real reason or compelling argument for retaining his services. Not one post stating that he's the best qualified person out there, doing a great job leading the organization, has the team and staff on the right track, is putting all the right pieces in place, or has a workable plan. It's all about starting over, being a moronic notion, or too expensive a proposition. News flash folks, those aren't reason for keeping him, they're merely excuses for not firing him.
That's exactly right and firing Shurmur and Holmgren don't have an effect on the salary cap. It's expensive, but it's not like Lerner doesn't have the pockets for it. Frankly, I'd wish he'd sell the team to a group of owners that really enjoy the game. Anyone think that Rush Limbaugh would be willing to buy into a consortium to buy the Browns?
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And then when the next regime produces the same or worse results, then what? Fire them too? Makes perfect sense to me.
Lol, this is your logic for keeping the current regime? Seems to be a lot of this "logic" going around.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Who was there to hire? I believe Shurmur was a last minute we need a body in a hurry hire.
On the contrary, there were several candidates out there, a couple were even interviewed, but Chumley isisted on hiring his buddy's nephew because of his keen offensive mind.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Who were they? I don't actually recall the process, I just remember almost nobody was interested.
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I have yet to read one real reason or compelling argument for retaining his services.
he hired tom heckert.
Is Heckert really that great?
The Quinn trade was highway robbery. The Haden pick was a home run. After that?
Traded Wimbley for what ended up being Colt McCoy.
Let Vickers walk to draft Marecic.
I don't understand his faith in Gocong and Mitchell.
Usama Young is a stiff.
I think Ward is one dimensional and was a reach in the second, as was the injury-plagued and mediocre Hardesty. McCoy is a back up at best, Lauvao's horrible, and Mitchell has had zero impact
It's too early to tell from this last draft, but I'd say Jordan Cameron and Marecic were wasted picks burned on two of the few positions we didn't really need to address. I did like the Falcons trade, and hope that we make it count.
I'm not trying to bash the guy, as I think he's the least of our problems right now, but I don't really think he's done anything special here.
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I would keep Holmgren. Get some line and even A receiver. No need to fire Holmgren (he brought in Heckert). My gripe is Shurmer and his product. You expect wins with this group , just as I want to win. Lame thread IMO.  
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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looking at the walrus resume, he was relieved of his duties as GM/VP in 2002 after 4 miserable seasons. the guy is a top flight coach, but seemingly has little clue about what it actually takes to run a franchise. his first try ended in his firing, his second try has been mired by bad decisions.
the shurmur hire was simply nepotism....as previously stated. 8 years in college as TE and OL coaches, 9 years under andy reid as a QB coach. 2 years as OC in STL driving them to a wonderful 8-24 combined record. and now a HC....
for those of you that claim holmgren knows what he's doing, why not provide some actual evidence that this guy knows what he's doing. cause looking back thru his history, it only shows that he is a competent coach. 2 superbowls sure....one with ron wolf bringing in talent, the other was 3 years after he was fired as GM and another was bringing in talent.
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Quote:
It's still a free forum where we're able express ideas and opinions
First thing you've gotten correct since you started ranting against the coaching staff and FO however many weeks ago that you started this crap. Of course, it also means I'm entitled to my opinion as well. Which pretty much negates most of the rest of the drivel you posted in your response to me.
Quote:
I've read nothing in your post except contrary venom.
With title as moronic as the one for this thread did you really expect anything other than one of two responses? Either someone is breaking their ankles jumping on your bandwagon or they're calling your suggestion the idiotic ranting that it is.
Frankly, the idea that anyone with half a brain would consider firing Mike Holmgren at this point in any season much less one in which the entire coaching staff and half the team is new and had no off season to speak of is mind boggling. Perhaps you are unaware of how well respected MH is as both a football man as as a person. Do you have any idea how big a laughingstock the Browns would be if they do what you suggest? Especially mid-season?
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Otto, frankly I don't care if you agree with my opinion or not, or if you like my post or not, but your insistence that I shouldn't post it here makes me think you're rather small minded, and I think that is moronic
Small-minded? Nope. I dare say just by my insistence that we give the coaching staff and FO a chance to do what they were hired to do and are trying their best to do while you want to dump the whole lot of them at the first sign of trouble makes me the one with the open mind, not you.
Do I care what you think of me or the Browns? No, not really. I just want the whining to stop. That's the only reason I posted on a game day. Otherwise, I normally think it's a waste of time because too many people are too riled up to make sense or even think about what they're posting. I believe you proved that point to a T.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Fire Holmgren because they decided to build SLOWLY through the draft?!? They knew they could win more games this year if they spent in free agency, but they knew they needed to build the team first and then plug a few holes when the time was right. He is building the team the right way without catering to the win-now philosophy that the fans and media want. I can only hope that he accepts an extension on his contract so this whole thing doesn't get blown up again. Blame Lerner for all the other regime changes and mistakes but please give Holmgren and Heckert some time to build this right.
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my only complaint is that we are not mailing it in like the Colts
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Heckart is pretty overated..you hit everything spot on.
He hasn't addressed the o-line. He didn't pick up a legit 3rd down RB to replace Jackson.
Added no playmakers at LB that can go sideline to sideline.
Holmgren had a man crush on the WR's.....so a guy like Steve Breaston was out of the question.
didn't bring in a establish DE that could consistantly rush the passer...
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I have no idea why all the love for Heckert ???
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Quote:
Quote:
And then when the next regime produces the same or worse results, then what? Fire them too? Makes perfect sense to me.
Lol, this is your logic for keeping the current regime? Seems to be a lot of this "logic" going around.
No. My logic is that Browns fans are too impatient for their own good and they'll throw someone under the bus in a heartbeat. It's funny, every single team in your division has continuity, except your team, and every team in your division has had some form of success except the Browns. That's a mighty strange coincidence, wouldn't you say?
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My logic is that Browns fans are too impatient for their own good and they'll throw someone under the bus in a heartbeat. It's funny, every single team in your division has continuity, except your team, and every team in your division has had some form of success except the Browns.
Just interjecting that continuity for the sake of continuity is inherently flawed and will ultimately lead to failure more often than not.
In the case of the Browns, the evidence telling whether or not we're failing because we're too quick to fire people lies in the paths of those we fired. Mangini's name wasn't being bandied about for any head coaching or GM positions.  Did Crennel get even a sniff at a HC gig? Nope. Phil Savage is doing radio for which team? Where is Derek Anderson? Couch? Frye? Quinn?
We've tried continuity. We've given some guys plenty of time. They've been fired from here and have gone on to do.....squat.
In an unrelated note, the Bengals only kept Lewis, not because they loved him, but because he's cheap. He stayed because he knew most likely wasn't going to get another HC gig. It was a marriage where each party said "Meh, I don't love'em, but it's the best I can get."
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I'm firmly entrenched in the "this thread is retarded" camp.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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I'm not even going to read the other posts before I respond to this. I don't need to.
Here's all I need to say is this:
Let's all vote for CalDawg as President of The Cleveland Browns National Football League franchise!!!!
In CalDawg we trust!!! Woof, woof!!!
Super bowl, here we come!!!!
[sounds of crickets chirping]
Yeah... that's what I thought.
[shakes head slowly]
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Clem, I dont support Caldawg at all. It's obvious he needs therapy or some type of medication.
But I would like u to address why u thought the Browns had any chance of winning like u predicted they would. Remember you said they were good for one or two of these wins a year agalnst squads they had no business beating.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
Fire Holmgren because they decided to build SLOWLY through the draft?!? They knew they could win more games this year if they spent in free agency, but they knew they needed to build the team first and then plug a few holes when the time was right. He is building the team the right way without catering to the win-now philosophy that the fans and media want. I can only hope that he accepts an extension on his contract so this whole thing doesn't get blown up again. Blame Lerner for all the other regime changes and mistakes but please give Holmgren and Heckert some time to build this right.
It's all fine and dandy to say that they are "building it right" by going through the draft and such, but the problem isn't their method. It's their results. The product that they are placing on the field is utter crapola. Call it the players if you will, but then you'd have to concede that they are not building a winner with what is going on with the field. Even with holes, the product on the field should still be more competitive than what they are placing on the field each week. How much longer of this do we need to watch? We are seriously better off just forfeiting the rest of the season. At least then, we'd only lose 0-2.
We just don't have a coach capable of leading this team anywhere. He's not motivating the team, he's demotivating it. His playcalling is horrendous. Do you really think running up the middle on first down everytime is fooling anyone? I seriously think he does, because that IS all he calls and wonders why it doesn't go anywhere and why we have trouble not going 3 and out. Our defense is giving up because our offense is not holding up their end of the deal. Blame the easy schedule to start off with all you want, but our defense has lost its moxy that it had when they were actually pressuring teams. So what that we are playing good teams now, even good teams let the rush in once in awhile. This rush has been non-existent these last few games.
But i'd stick with Holmgren, though Shurmur needs to go onto different and farther away pastures.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Official Fire Holmgren Thread
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