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[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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I have yet to read one real reason or compelling argument for retaining his services. Not one post stating that he's the best qualified person out there, doing a great job leading the organization, has the team and staff on the right track, is putting all the right pieces in place, or has a workable plan. It's all about starting over, being a moronic notion, or too expensive a proposition. News flash folks, those aren't reason for keeping him, they're merely excuses for not firing him.
U guys are hilarious...I don't read a word on this board after a game...I watch games all day and night...I then refresh the gameday forum Monday morning to see who Wins the "Emotionally Driven Ignorant" thread of the week award...
Congrats...YOU WIN!!!!!!!!!!
I can't believe I read what I read...U guys KNOW what's going on here...U KNOW we're YOUNG all over the place (And they're PLAYING ALOT)...U KNOW we've got a new HC...U KNOW who we have at QB...U KNOW we switched to a 4-3 with having a roster full of 3-4 guys...U KNOW we are trying to install one of the most difficult offenses ever run...
Yet when we get spanked by a SOLID ASS team u wanna run for the hills and fire anyone and everyone...LMAO...
OPEN THY EYES PEOPLE...It's obvious to SOME of us what we're doing here...This regime is doing this the way it should be done...And we finally have a GM who can actually GET IT RIGHT...
One player...ONE...Who was a first round pick higher than Top 10 is still on this team from the previous 10 years...That's PATHETIC...And it's PREVIOUS regime's fault...That player is Thomas...And we just so happened to recently sign him to a long-term extension...AMAZING how that works...U re-ink someone who is actually WORTH IT...
Priority #1 for this team is to get the QB spot solidified...Because right now we DO NOT have one that is capable of making anyone or anything around him better...He is physically challenged...And he WILL NOT be this teams QB going forward...
Heckert sees this people...And it is exactly why he WILL not and SHOULD not go FA crazy spending Cap money irresponsibly...It won't happen until the youth on this team matures and more pieces are added...AT THAT TIME we will begin bringing in upper tier FA's...NOT BEFORE...In the meantime we suffer through it...
TOAD...The Browns ARE NOT on a budget...That's BS...NONE of what u keep saying about previous FO people still being paid has a damn thing to do with the 53 on the field and the Cap that accompanies them...It's got everything to do with Heckert & Holmgren not wanting to turn this team into a Snyder run Redskin organization...Cap hell and releasing high paid players is where that will get u in this league...Ain't gonna happen here...It's the PLAN...And it ain't gonna happen in TWO lousy years...
In 2 or 3 years when this team is ROCK SOLID...Half of u guys don't DESERVE to partake in the craziness simply due to your overwhelmingly Emotionally driven Ignorance during the period of time it takes to get to that point...
Go Browns!!!
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TOAD...The Browns ARE NOT on a budget...That's BS...NONE of what u keep saying about previous FO people still being paid has a damn thing to do with the 53 on the field and the Cap that accompanies them...
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Adam Schefter, NFL
ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter says the Browns are being careful in free agency because of dead money their spending. He doesn't expect the Giants to be flexible with Osi Umenyiora and says there were offers for Randy Moss, just not from contenders.
I cannot confirm that Lerner is still paying Mangini, Savage, and Crennel through 2012, but that's the talk. I believe it. Sometimes where there's smoke, there's fire. I believe Lerner is operating on a budget right now because this team isn't going anywhere. And nobody is talking about the salary cap. This is about the PURE bottom line.
We are going to disagree about this. I believe Lerner would be an idiot NOT to run things on a budget, considering how much he's paying Holmgren, Mangini, Savage, and Crennel....
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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In 2 or 3 years when this team is ROCK SOLID
LMAO!!!!!! 
You think this team will be good in 2 to 3 years??? They may continue to draft really well, but unless they don't know how to maintain talented players (like Vickers, Roth, and now Hillis) then it will take a heck of a lot longer to be a really good team.
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My logic is that Browns fans are too impatient for their own good and they'll throw someone under the bus in a heartbeat. It's funny, every single team in your division has continuity, except your team, and every team in your division has had some form of success except the Browns.
Just interjecting that continuity for the sake of continuity is inherently flawed and will ultimately lead to failure more often than not.
In the case of the Browns, the evidence telling whether or not we're failing because we're too quick to fire people lies in the paths of those we fired. Mangini's name wasn't being bandied about for any head coaching or GM positions.  Did Crennel get even a sniff at a HC gig? Nope. Phil Savage is doing radio for which team? Where is Derek Anderson? Couch? Frye? Quinn?
We've tried continuity. We've given some guys plenty of time. They've been fired from here and have gone on to do.....squat.
In an unrelated note, the Bengals only kept Lewis, not because they loved him, but because he's cheap. He stayed because he knew most likely wasn't going to get another HC gig. It was a marriage where each party said "Meh, I don't love'em, but it's the best I can get."
Disagree; I don't necessarily mean continuity in terms of the coaching, I mean continuity in regards to what type of team you're going to be, an identity if you will. Every single coaching staff you've hired, has a different identity/vision for your team, and that's part of the reason IMO that you guys always have setbacks. If you're going to be a WCO team, be one; if Shurmur isn't working out, so be it. But the next coach you hire better be a WCO/4-3 coach, otherwise you're going to end up starting all over again.
And in regards to the Bengals: they have much more of an identity than the Browns do at this point. (and this is despite the fact that we're all aware Mike Brown is a moran).
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Disagree; I don't necessarily mean continuity in terms of the coaching, I mean continuity in regards to what type of team you're going to be, an identity if you will.
I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that we tried to maintain continuity in "what kind of team we were going to be."
Savage had four seasons here. That's more than enough time to put his identity on the team. Romeo Crennel got four seasons as well. During that time he tried to install the same defense and a power running game.
Lerner was very patient with Savage and Crennel. Giving two guys four seasons is more than fair.
It's not that we've failed to give people chances, it's that Lerner has failed to put the right people in place. They had plenty of time to instill an identity. They simply couldn't. If the were the right people, they'd have been given comparable jobs somewhere else in the NFL. And THAT, my good sir, is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. They were kept because of continuity and tried to establish an identity. They failed. Wrong guys.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Disagree; I don't necessarily mean continuity in terms of the coaching, I mean continuity in regards to what type of team you're going to be, an identity if you will.
I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that we tried to maintain continuity in "what kind of team we were going to be."
Savage had four seasons here. That's more than enough time to put his identity on the team. Romeo Crennel got four seasons as well. During that time he tried to install the same defense and a power running game.
Lerner was very patient with Savage and Crennel. Giving two guys four seasons is more than fair.
It's not that we've failed to give people chances, it's that Lerner has failed to put the right people in place. They had plenty of time to instill an identity. They simply couldn't. If the were the right people, they'd have been given comparable jobs somewhere else in the NFL. And THAT, my good sir, is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. They were kept because of continuity and tried to establish an identity. They failed. Wrong guys.
I see. So Lerner is partly to blame as well?
And just out of curiosity: if your team can't draft the QB that it wants/needs, do you go OL with at least one of the first round picks?
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Please DELETE this thread,
Shows just how spoiled many Browns fans are and how sociaty is these days,
Win NOW or YOUR FIRED...Turn off the TV, you've been watching to much Donald Trump.
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Fire Holmgren because they decided to build SLOWLY through the draft?!? They knew they could win more games this year if they spent in free agency, but they knew they needed to build the team first and then plug a few holes when the time was right. He is building the team the right way without catering to the win-now philosophy that the fans and media want. I can only hope that he accepts an extension on his contract so this whole thing doesn't get blown up again. Blame Lerner for all the other regime changes and mistakes but please give Holmgren and Heckert some time to build this right.
The voice of reason 
I agree 100%.
we are young, and these young guys are showing promise. But guess what, these young guys are going to hit a wall soon, about the time the schedule really cranks up. So expect the losses to come. It was dilusional to think this was a playoff contending team, even with the nfc west on the schedule.
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Legend
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I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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J/c
I think it's painfully obvious shurmur is in over his head.....he doesn't belong any higher than a qb coach in this league.
At seasons end, I don't think holmgren has much of a choice but to assume the headset. Pat shurmur looks totally incompetent out there. Gill Haskell will come out of the fo as well to be the walrus oc and shurmur will be dropped back to qb coach where he belongs. If we only win one more game this year...I don't think holmgren will have much of a choice...we can't just keep going on this path.
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J/c
I think it's painfully obvious shurmur is in over his head.....he doesn't belong any higher than a qb coach in this league.
At seasons end, I don't think holmgren has much of a choice but to assume the headset. Pat shurmur looks totally incompetent out there. Gill Haskell will come out of the fo as well to be the walrus oc and shurmur will be dropped back to qb coach where he belongs. If we only win one more game this year...I don't think holmgren will have much of a choice...we can't just keep going on this path.
I'd bet u my 38 Foot Baja with Twin 454 Magnums that don't happen...
There is NO WAY we're giving up on Shurmer...
In over his head???...I'd bout guarantee that the ones in the KNOW don't think so...Because they UNDERSTAND what we're doing...The WIN NOW crew is the one that's gonna be callin' for anyones head...Short sighted... 
Go Browns!!!
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To each his own, but I feel absolutely 100% confident that Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur will all be in the exact same coaching/FO positions next year as they are this year.
Right or wrong, that's what I feel.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Disagree; I don't necessarily mean continuity in terms of the coaching, I mean continuity in regards to what type of team you're going to be, an identity if you will.
I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that we tried to maintain continuity in "what kind of team we were going to be."
Savage had four seasons here. That's more than enough time to put his identity on the team. Romeo Crennel got four seasons as well. During that time he tried to install the same defense and a power running game.
Lerner was very patient with Savage and Crennel. Giving two guys four seasons is more than fair.
It's not that we've failed to give people chances, it's that Lerner has failed to put the right people in place. They had plenty of time to instill an identity. They simply couldn't. If the were the right people, they'd have been given comparable jobs somewhere else in the NFL. And THAT, my good sir, is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. They were kept because of continuity and tried to establish an identity. They failed. Wrong guys.
I see. So Lerner is partly to blame as well?
And just out of curiosity: if your team can't draft the QB that it wants/needs, do you go OL with at least one of the first round picks?
It really depends on how you ask the question, and in which context you're discussing, but at face value the answer to "is Lerner partially to blame as well?" is as follows:
Absolutely. In fact, Lerner must shoulder the ultimate responsibility for the product on the field. He's more than partially responsible.
I've praised his desire to win. Unlike some (which is their absolute right) I don't have to have a Browns owner who lives and dies with Cleveland Browns football. I don't need him to be Jerry Jones, stalking the sidelines and criticizing and questioning his own head coach in the media. I don't need him to be Bob Kraft, who kisses Vince Wilfork before the games. I just need the guy to do two things. The first is to be willing to spend his money, which means I don't want him to be Mike Brown. Second, he has to make smart decisions.
Lerner is only one for two here.
Lerner is throwing as much money as he can at the leadership in the organization. From Butch Davis to Savage to Kokonis to Crennel to Mangini to Holmgren and Heckert......he's more than shown he's willing to do whatever it takes to win. Where he's fallen flat on his face are his decisions in people. He can't make a smart decision right now if his life depends on it. Every decision has been a failure.
So yes, Lerner is responsible. He's ultimately responsible because the buck stops with him.
In response to your question of whether or not we go OL in the 1st round if we cannot get the QB we may want, I would answer as follows....
If there's a guy with value who isn't a big reach when we're picking, abso-freakin-lutely we can take an OL in the 1st.
I'm of the rather mixed opinion that if we find McCoy isn't the guy, and that's looking more probable than not, and we cannot get one of the pro-style QB's or a guy like Jones, I'm perfectly content getting one of these mid-level NFL guys like Jason Campbell or Orton while fixing other holes. This team is more than one or two seasons away from being an elite team, so if we can plug the QB position via free agency or even trade with a competent starter, I'd be quite happy to fix major holes with both of our 1st round picks.
I'm going to apologize for this question, as it may seem inhospitable, hehe, but which team is it that you pull for? Obviously I've seen you say "your team" on a couple of occasions. I'm just curious. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I'm pretty sure he's a Seahawks fan.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Clem, I dont support Caldawg at all. It's obvious he needs therapy or some type of medication.
But I would like u to address why u thought the Browns had any chance of winning like u predicted they would. Remember you said they were good for one or two of these wins a year agalnst squads they had no business beating.
Hi Rish
The only answer I can give you is still the same reasoning that prompted me to say it in the "Can We Compete" thread. "Any given Sunday" is about all I (or anyone else) have to go on, you know?
For the record, I said this:
"Since we haven't seen a game like that this year, we're due for one. Could be v. Texans.
Then, I said this:
"Speaking realisitcally, I've seen sparks from this team in games all season long. What I haven't seen is any consistency. At some point, the pieces have to fall into place.... and when they do, the Browns will put together a truly repectable 60 minutes of football. I expect that game to happen sometime this season. I just don't know which game that will be."
and:
"Can we compete? YES.
Can we win? yes.
Will we win? Who knows?
...not exactly a "bold prediction of victory," do you think? Still, I'd love to see them put at least one of those "improbable victories" together this season. It would certainly help the weekly mood around here some Sunday evening....
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Insanity rains supreme I guess,,
Dumbest thing to do would be to fire holmgren, heckert or shurmur after 9 freaking games..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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j/c
Just clicking....didn't read every post...to upset....
My $0.02 is that until you have the guys to play one's idea of the west coast offense, why not utilize what little strengths you have and evolve into the west coast and not keep playing Worst Coast offense.
I'm not at Holmgren's throat yet. I'm at Pat's throat. Beginning of the season we go pass happy on 1st down like crazy. Now we are at level 4 of the depth chart at RB and NOW we run 11 of the first 13 first downs? Say what one wants about Man-genius' offense, but at least it had enough sense and some well timed creativity in it to play above the talent level. Instead of fitting a square peg in a round hole, how about filing down the edges and adjust the peg until you get a real round peg?
"My signature line goes here."
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To use your example...
I think we are filing down the peg, but that takes a couple drafts and offseasons to accomplish.
We can debate about how good or bad those Mangini drafts were, but there's no debating that none of the players he picked have been able to fit into our new systems. The FO will either get the time to redo the roster to fit what they're trying to run, or they'll get booted out the door onto their butts.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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I am very relieved to discover that most everyone agrees that this thread is nonsense.
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While i agree it is premature to call for Holmgren on a platter, I do understand.
It doesn't look like Pat is head coaching material.
I just don't see it.
Maybe he can grow in to the position, but somehow my pride holds hope we can get a guy who isn't a OJT.
I see other teams change things but with us, the beat goes on, the beat goes on.
Even if we win a few more, this team isn't as good as last years.....and Otto, i am not pimping Mangini.
Right now we have nothing.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think Holmgren should get one more off-season with Heckert before we can say for sure he's a stooge.
Good God in heaven, not YOU too?!
#gmstrong
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Savage had four seasons here. That's more than enough time to put his identity on the team. Romeo Crennel got four seasons as well. During that time he tried to install the same defense and a power running game.
Lerner was very patient with Savage and Crennel. Giving two guys four seasons is more than fair.
You managed to get Lerner, Savage and Crennel into the same sentence and that's important because...
Savage and Crennel were never on the same page contrary to what I thought going in. Besides publicly throwing him under the bus Savage undermined Crennel many times. Doing his staff hiring for him is one glaring example. Beyond that, Savage was not GM material as evidenced also by his cussing out a Bill's fan and his handling of Winslow when that went to hell.
I don't feel Lerner "gave" those two guys four seasons through any sense of "fairness" or "patience". Lerner, (filling in the presidential position Holmgren now occupies), was in so far over his head he didn't know what to do so he spun his wheels. In the end, it got so bad with both guys that he could do little else but let them go.
Then he went on and further tried to be a football man, (big mistake), by continuing as team president and hired Mangini based upon, well, nothing other than Lerner's own vast football knowledge, coaching experience and personnel judgment.
Savage was bad. Crennel was a better man but not a head coach and Lerner was the worst of all mading a huge mistake thinking he could accomplish anything football related as the team's president.
Those three were destined to fail in spades. Throw in Mangini and Kokinis to make five and you'd have the worst hand in the history of football poker. 
#gmstrong
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I'm pretty sure he's a Seahawks fan.
Correct sir.
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J/C
I see a lot of rancor, quite a few disparaging remarks, and a whole lot of self-righteous indignation, but still no reasons. I guess if that's what makes most of you feel better about yourselves, I can live with it, but it still ignores the issue that is so blatantly aparent: he is the "dolt" who hired Shurmur and insisted we draft Colt. Patience might be called for if there were any signs at all that there is improvement week to week, or even competence at the HC position, but this here, this incredible ineptitude, this fantastic farce is negligent incompetance starting at the top.
I believe it was Otto who mentioned something about us being a laughing stock if we we're to fire Holmgren now. That's actually pretty funny, because now we're simply pathetic and no one is laughing, they just feel pity that such a storied franchise has fallen so far and hasn't been able to even sniff respectability since the rerturn. But that's not the sad part, the really sad part is, most fans feel we have some kind of football genius in charge of operations and they are so blinded by that notion that they can't even recognize the fact that we're heading in the wrong direction. That is what truly makes us a laughing stock.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I see a lot of rancor, quite a few disparaging remarks, and a whole lot of self-righteous indignation, but still no reasons.
Try climbing off of your soap box and actually reading all of the posts.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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I think Holmgren should get one more off-season with Heckert before we can say for sure he's a stooge.
Good God in heaven, not YOU too?!
Not me too, what? Eh?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I see a lot of rancor, quite a few disparaging remarks, and a whole lot of self-righteous indignation, but still no reasons.
What more reasoning do u need???...It's been spelled out for ya'...
We're a YOUNG team still in the midst of acquiring YOUNG talent...That's the bottom line and is a reason many think we ARE headed in the right direction...
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most fans feel we have some kind of football genius in charge of operations and they are so blinded by that notion that they can't even recognize the fact that we're heading in the wrong direction.
Your turn...
What reasoning do YOU have for thinking we're headed in the WRONG direction???
And don't just use the so far failure of giving a 3rd round QB a shot at what SHOULD be an offense he could excel in...
Go Browns!!!
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Even if we win a few more, this team isn't as good as last years.....and Otto, i am not pimping Mangini.
You're right. This team isn't last year's team. I actually think we'll win 6 games.
And what's with the Mangini reference? I don't believe I have ever equated you with a Mangini lover, certainly not in this thread. What's the matter, feeling guilty?
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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I see a lot of rancor, quite a few disparaging remarks, and a whole lot of self-righteous indignation, but still no reasons.
I see your reading comprehension is still at a low ebb. There are plenty of reasons that firing anyone right now would be a bad idea. Most, if not all, have been stated here. It's not our fault you cannot or will not read or understand them.
I understand that everyone is frustrated. No one likes to watch a losing team. But, honestly, if it bothers you as much as it seems to then I'd say you're better off not watching the Browns for a while.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Legend
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Legend
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I agree. It's why I left after the half of the last game and early in the 4th qtr the game before.
I'll be up for this weeks game, but to be honest, it is mostly for the big tailgate planned with lots of friends from all parts of the world in attendance.
I figure if people from England and Scotland can make the trip, I can muster up one more round, but after that, I'll save myself the aggravation.
There is always next year, right??
Well, except for the fact we will still suck and as I get older there aren't any guarantees there is a next month let alone year.
At Sundays game, if you hear booing, you can bet I'll be one of them.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I wouldn't ..... but I would go QB, WR, RT, RB, and OLB with my first 5 picks. (and maybe throw in a Guard as well)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Legend
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j/c Well if trends continue in Philly... Maybe we could reunite Holmgren with Andy Reid? 
Last edited by OSGuy; 11/08/11 09:21 PM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Legend
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Quote:
j/c
Will if trends continue in Philly...
Maybe we could reunite Holmgren with Andy Reid?
I have actually been thinking about this. What happens if Reid gets fired? I don't think Holmgren would fire Shurmur to hire Reid (I wish he would if the situation came up), but you know he would want to have his friend on board in some capacity.
It's an interesting dilemma.
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Legend
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Posts: 15,979 |
Quote:
J/C
the really sad part is, most fans feel we have some kind of football genius in charge of operations and they are so blinded by that notion that they can't even recognize the fact that we're heading in the wrong direction.
jbr />
Can you consider the notion, that the sad part might be that you feel we have some kind of football moron in charge of operations and you are so blinded by that notion that you can't even recognize the fact the we're heading in the right direction?
Can you look at it from both sides?
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Hall of Famer
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How about a 'Hire Jim Tressel' thread?
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Quote:
How about a 'Hire Jim Tressel' thread?
Firing Holmgren makes more sense and it makes no sense at all.
#GMSTRONG
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Hall of Famer
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At least Jim Tressel can actually coach. Shurmur can't do that.
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Quote:
At least Jim Tressel can actually coach. Shurmur can't do that.
Tressel can coach in college. I am a huge fan of his, but I do not get the sense he would be as successful in the NFL.
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Dawg Talker
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J/C
We have to give the man his due time,3/4 years.It is the way we do things.
The buzzards have left,the leaves are falling,there's a hint of snow in the air,the Browns are dead last with no hope.
Another year has gone by,time to look ahead and start talking draft.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Official Fire Holmgren Thread
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