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As irked as I am at the state of things currently, there is NO WAY that we should be scrapping things and starting over again.
For once, we MUST actually stick with something and give it enough time to actually be built. Regardless of how much I feel that last off-season's changes were a mistake, we have to stick with what we've changed to and give it a full and complete fair shot of doing its thing or we WILL be mired in this crapfest of losing for eternity.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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For once, we MUST actually stick with something and give it enough time to actually be built.
I'm not nessecarily disagreeing with you...
But how much time is enough?
Savage/Crennel got 4 years and beyond one fluke year, I don't know if they even improved the team...
The days of 5-7 year plans are over in the NFL, weather people in the FO and the HC or the fanbase wants to hear it or not, guys like Kubiak in Houston are the exception, not the rule, plus he's shown in his 6 years more than we have in our 13...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
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For once, we MUST actually stick with something and give it enough time to actually be built.
I'm not nessecarily disagreeing with you...
But how much time is enough?
Savage/Crennel got 4 years and beyond one fluke year, I don't know if they even improved the team...
The days of 5-7 year plans are over in the NFL, weather people in the FO and the HC or the fanbase wants to hear it or not, guys like Kubiak in Houston are the exception, not the rule, plus he's shown in his 6 years more than we have in our 13...
Here's the problem: When you change coaches every 2 1/2 years or so - most of the time you change o and d systems. Each time we change coaches we get the "well, these players aren't set up for the system the new coach runs - it'll take time to get them up to speed."
And BAM - we change again. Que the "starting over" threads. Que the "we need a re-build, and this time it will be different" threads. Then, 6 mths to a year and a half in - same thing again. It's groundhog day.
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The days of 5-7 year plans are over in the NFL
No, they are not. Not even close.
If you want to look at teams that went from sucking to having a good year or two, sure, you can make that argument.
If you, however, want to look at teams that went from consistently sucking to consistently winning... they took time. They were NOT an overnight success.
How much time? When you can look at 80% of your starters and say "yeah, that's NFL talent and it fits what we're trying to do", and you still fail consistently... then you need to be gone.
When we're constantly turning over half our roster because we're constantly changing philosophy's.. you're doomed until you stop the change.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Quote:
For once, we MUST actually stick with something and give it enough time to actually be built.
I'm not nessecarily disagreeing with you...
But how much time is enough?
Savage/Crennel got 4 years and beyond one fluke year, I don't know if they even improved the team...
The days of 5-7 year plans are over in the NFL, weather people in the FO and the HC or the fanbase wants to hear it or not, guys like Kubiak in Houston are the exception, not the rule, plus he's shown in his 6 years more than we have in our 13...
well, let's see, Chuck Noll got abouit 4 years... 2 of which were just horrible.
How many years did it take Don Shula to make the Dolphins respectable.
How many yeard did it take Bill Walsh to get the 49ers to be respectable
How many years did it take Mike Holmgren to get the Packers back on track or the seahawks
Please don't tell me that that was a different time and the game was different.. I know that. I also know that when you find a solid guy, there isn't a guarantee that he will remain with you while you fit the rest of the peices in place. Back in the days, there was every reasonable belief that once you sign a guy, he's yours until you don't want him anymore.
I think it's actually MUCH harder now then in the days of those coaches listed with the possible exception of Holmgren...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I banged out a typical mile-long post on this last night, then decided to scrap it. {no need to thank me...}
Basically, I said that much of our endless cycle of purge/reload was due to Randy Lerner not knowing what he wanted in his football team. For years, Pitt and Balto have been known for aggressive D/ pounding run-oriented O's... and they've stuck to that identity. For years, Indy has been known for explosive, high-powered O's. Both identities will work in the NFL, but the key to both success stories is establishing that identity, then sticking with it long enough to populate the team with the appropriate players.
By not forming a cohesive FO (which would develop an ongoing philosophy), he wasted a lot of time and capital (both human and monetary) in grabbing leaders without regard to team identity. That's why every change in coaching staff brought about wholesale changes in O and D philosophy- and by extension, players, as well.
Again, I use the Steelers as an example. When Mike Tomlin took the reins, many were predicting the fall of the Steelers as an NFL powerhouse. Cowher was The Man... and noone could fill his shoes.Here we are, how many years later (?), and Pitt looks like it always did. Why are they still a league leader? Because the philosophy behind the team never changed. LeBeau is still there, Arians is still there, the FO is still intact.... and the Stoolz just keep right on rolling. Heck- you could plug just about ANY competent coach into that system, and that wagon will still roll right on down the championship road.
IMHO, it is incumbant upon MH to drfine what kind of team the Browns are going to be, then make sure that his coaching staff fits that team identity. Only then, can TH draft players who will make Holmy's vision come to life. I'm not sure if that's what we have with Shurmer just yet, but it's way too early to be thinking about a shake-up at the top. Waaaaay too early.
How much time is correct? I really don't know.... and that seems to be the elusive answer that haas plagued the Browns since The Return. The closest incarnation we had was Davis/Arians/Fazio... but without a strong pres and GM, Butch's shortcomings blew that up. All I know is that 3 years is enough time to decide if a coach is worth keeping.... IF the team is established. Ours has not been... so any attempt at forming a timeline is just guesswork.
I say 5 years for H2. Less for the coaches if they aren't working out... but we need to keep some continuity a the top, if we're ever to field a team that isn't perpetually "in transition."
Think of it this way: in the 13 years that we've been here, only 2 have been with an established, traditional pro-style FO/organizational structure. And if some say 5 years is too much, fine.... but one thing's for sure- 2 certainly ain't enough.
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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and that was the abridged version 
#gmstrong
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I think Lerner tried to form a FO that would get us there. he just didn't succeed yet. Will Holmgren and Heckert be the tandem? I think so. But who the heck really knows...
Right now, its a coin toss..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I think Lerner tried to form a FO that would get us there. he just didn't succeed yet. Will Holmgren and Heckert be the tandem? I think so. But who the heck really knows...
Right now, its a coin toss..
But don't toss the coin too quick. There HAS to be continuity - without it - well, look at the Browns since 1999........
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At least Jim Tressel can actually coach. Shurmur can't do that.
Tressel can coach in college. I am a huge fan of his, but I do not get the sense he would be as successful in the NFL.
Why not find out? He's smart enough and there have been successful jumps from the college level to the NFL. He certainly couldn't do worse.
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Just stepping in for one second.
Pat Shurmur
Starting Center for Michigan State, 3 years, 4.0 GPA, Co-Captain his Senior Year
23 years of coaching experience
12 years of NFL coaching experience
Offensive Coordinator for St. Louis Rams - Bradford threw for the second most yards in rookie history in 2010
QB Coach with Philadelphia Eagles from 1999-2008
His background and history portend well.
I think calls for his head right now are off base and while the product on the field has been almost unwatchable I'm prepared to hold off beginning to evaluate the HC position until there's more to evaluate.
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You use that as a reason to give him more time...
All I see is reasons never to give him the job to begin with...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
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I think Lerner tried to form a FO that would get us there. he just didn't succeed yet. Will Holmgren and Heckert be the tandem? I think so. But who the heck really knows...
Right now, its a coin toss..
But don't toss the coin too quick. There HAS to be continuity - without it - well, look at the Browns since 1999........
That's kinda the problem around here. One thing goes wrong and as far as some fans are concerned,, the coach/gm/pres/owner all have to go.
They NEVER, EVER seem to look at the entire picture to find out why. they jump to conclusions and to heck with the person that says,, WAIT.. it may not be that simple. 
Truth is, it rarely is simple.
For instance, I wonder,, I really wonder, what would the team be like had Hillis not gotten injured?
That's one thing that the team didn't have any control over. none. And we can't answer that. no way to really know for sure.
What about losing Stieny.. there was a lot of folks that said Stieny was over the hill, never very good, too light in the pants. etc etc.. yet, he's gone and the line, once considered a strength, is just not as good.
What if we'd not have lost him?
Would Pinkston, who isn't exactly all pro, but not bad for being thrown in the fray,,, had he gone in on the right side, would he be better than Lauvio?
Those things are pretty much beyond the control of the team managment and coaching staff..
All they can do is what they are doing,, deal with the cards they were dealt.
But hey, Let's fire them all and start over... Again 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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That's kinda the problem around here. One thing goes wrong and as far as some fans are concerned,, the coach/gm/pres/owner all have to go.
On the other hand, if you look back, damn near every player/coach that people complained about ended up getting canned eventually for the exact reasons the posters mentioned. Very, very few have improved their lot in football life after leaving here.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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He created this pathetic mess, he doesn't deserve to be rewarded for his ineptitude by making millions of our hard earned dollars. Send his over-rated ass back to Seattle now.
Cal...I've been busy for the past week or so and have not had time to read the board...
...I must give "myself" credit for predicting "you would be the one" leading the "Fire Holmgren movement" if the Browns had a tough season this year.
When Holmgren fired Mangini, no one on this board pitched more of a fit than you, Cal..
...Cal, you even said you wanted Holmgren to promote the Browns special teams coach, Brad Seely, to the HC position rather than hire Shurmur.
BUT, in a moment of reason and sanity, CAL said the following...
...."Introducing two entirely new systems and a (fairly) new team to the toughest division in the league makes it seem to me that we're somewhere near where we were, progress-wise, a year or two ago. No reason to reasonably expect rapid advancement in the W-L"....
Cal...which Browns fan are you today?
...the Browns fan with some common sense and reasonable expectations (as demonstrated above) ?
...OR, are you the unreasonable, ranting and raving, Mangini loving, "semi-Browns fan".... that I predicted would be the first board member to start a "fire Holmgren thread", if and when things got tough for the Browns during Shurmur's first season as HC of the Browns?
I happen to agree with the fan who wrote....
...."Introducing two entirely new systems and a (fairly) new team to the toughest division in the league makes it seem to me that we're somewhere near where we were, progress-wise, a year or two ago. No reason to reasonably expect rapid advancement in the W-L"....
A year or two ago, in 2009 and 2010, the Browns had some very tough seasons...Mangini as HC/GM (09) with a new coaching staff, new playbooks and a huge turnover in player personnel.
...and in both, 2009 and 2010 Mangini's teams finished with 5-11 records.
Cal..there was no call from you to fire Mangini after just one season...was there?
...and there was no call from Cal to fire Mangini after his second poor season, either.
Cal, so why the double standard?
Also, I would like to know which Browns fan, are you today?
...the fan with reasonable expectations and common sense ?
...OR, the unreasonable, agenda driven, hate filled Browns fan who is still upset that Holmgren fired Mangini?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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That's kinda the problem around here. One thing goes wrong and as far as some fans are concerned,, the coach/gm/pres/owner all have to go.
On the other hand, if you look back, damn near every player/coach that people complained about ended up getting canned eventually for the exact reasons the posters mentioned. Very, very few have improved their lot in football life after leaving here.
Yeah,, 7 coaches were hired and fired before the Steelers found Noll... and they hung in with him through tough years and boom, they gave him the talent and he had a winner.
The question becomes, who's our Noll. Who's our Shula?
If Noll and Shula were fired after 8 or 9 games,, how smart would that look today?
If the GM of the Steelers in the late 60's (one of Dan Rooneys kids) was fired after a couple of losing seasons (let along a couple of lost games), how would that look today?
So you can say that all those before this regime ended up being fired, but what you can't say with any degree of certainty, is if they'd have been successful had they remained.
I think that Butch could have been if he had a strong personnel guy.. he didn't.
I think that Mangini could have been, if he had a strong personnel guy.. he didn't.
I think that Heckert is a strong personnel guy. He's shown a keen eye for talent thus far, but like all teams, not all picks or pick ups have worked out perfectly. Rarely do they.
He was hired by Holmgren, a first time team President but who's been pretty successful as a HC.. (although, if he started this way, we'd still have folks wanting him fired.. what's that say about the fans that are supposed to be the most knowledgable)
This FO is trying to fix 10 years of mismanagment.. and people want it done in a day..
In time, it will work out.. sooner or later we'll find out Shula or Noll... I think we have the right front office to support him when we do., And I'm not saying that Shurmur isn't the guy.. But I am acknowledging that he may not be.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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D:
Pretty much we see things the same way.
The closest thing we had to a "strong personnel guy" was Phil Savage, who made 2 fatal mistakes:
1. He set his own agenda, undermining the proper working relationship between himself and Romeo
2. He sold the farm (just like Butch did) to put a "winner' on the field before finishing the foundation of the team.
In the Mangini years, we had the George Kokinis debacle, whiich amounted to exactly the opposite dynamic.
In both cases, the common denominator was Randy Lerner. Since he took over the team, he's stumbled and blundered his way through 3 regime changes (which could have been expected, given his unfamiliarity with the team/pro football [not futbol] game.)
As Toad has hinted, it wasn't for lack of care or trying that we've been on this path. Each time a decision was to be made, Randy first consulted successful old-timers (Robert Kraft, among others) about how to proceed. Two swings-and-misses later, he finally did the one thing that could turn around the team's fortunes: he hired a Prez to oversee the daily workings and infrastucture of the franchise.
Now folks can gripe about Holmy being a 'first-timer' in this role all they want, but one fact that hasn't been considered: after coming up through the ranks for 30+ years, he most probably has a very good idea of what the job entails. After years of working with GM's, other coaches, and Presidents in successful organizations, there's no way he couldn't see the differences between strong franchises and weak ones. The NFL is a pretty small, tight community... and word travels regarding who's doing things right and who's not.
For the first time- the very first time since the Clark/Policy (ugh!) days, this franchise has the proper structure at the top... with all hands pulling the oars in the same direction. From my pov, as bad as this season has looked, the long-term future just seems better than in any past regimes. As a poster on another board wrote in his sig: "the adults are now in charge."
IMHO, it would be the stupidest thing imaginable to purge this current FO at this time. The Browns' house has a basement, foundation and frame erected. It still needs plumbing, electric, walls and a roof. I say let these contractors do their jobs,,, and quit whining about the fact that the house isn't "pretty" yet.
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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p.s.
2 open questions to any fan who wants H3 gone....
1. "who would YOU get to replace them?"
2. "how long would you give THEM before calling for fresh blood to be spilled?"
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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p.s.
2 open questions to any fan who wants H3 gone....
1. "who would YOU get to replace them?"
2. "how long would you give THEM before calling for fresh blood to be spilled?"
1. Someone better
2. About 4 days
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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. He sold the farm (just like Butch did) to put a "winner' on the field before finishing the foundation of the team.
Exactly.. and oddly enough, it's exactly what some fans wanted Heckert to do this time..
If any team chooses to take the method of getting players at any cost as FA's to make a winner today,,,,what they get is headaches all over the place and maybe,, if they are lucky, a winner for a year..maybe two if they are REALLY Lucky.,
But most of them end up like Washington.. Spent like a drunken sailor and spun thier wheels.. Shanahan is still trying to dig his way out of the hole Snyder put them in.
Look at Philly,, man, all those trades, FA signings.. and what's thier record?
Oh yeah,,, 3-5
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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And do you really want to give people extensions without results?
Do you really expect results, when not getting time to produce them?
IMO anyone thinking that firing Holmgren would help this organization, is a fool. Stability has to be built, it is not instant. This team was severely hampered by not having an offseason, thinking it didn't matter is not realistic.
I am not happy with this season by any means. I have been critical of McCoy probably a little unfairly just as others have. But over the past couple days, I have realized that there are so many factors as to why the team is struggling. Injuries, youth, new schemes, and trying to implement new schemes while trying to gameplan in season are the most glaring ones.
We HAVE seen similar things over the past decade, and it is reasonable to expect many fans to believe that this is just more of the same. But deep down we all hope it isn't, and there is the reason why we are all still here. The "there is always next year..." thing is getting old, but it still holds some truth. We have survived many many years of bad football, giving this regime their chance is going to hurt us how?
Some of the same people claiming for years that you have to build thru the draft. Many who have claimed you have to build a strong defense first. Many who complained about signing others cast-offs (FAs). Are now condemning the new regime for trying to do just those things.
I don't plan on dying anytime soon, and I don't think many of you are either, so if it does take a few more years so what? If you really can't wait anymore, especially after waiting this long, then it is time to move on. There are 31 other teams to cheer for, feel free to pick one. I myself couldn't even think of how to cheer for any other team. But like myself, I am willing to bet most of you couldn't either. So how about we do what we do best, and look forward to the future and BELIEVE good times are coming. Sounds corny right? Well if you think it is foolish thinking, then why are we all here on this board year after year? Face it we are what makes a losing franchise one of the most loved teams in the league..........and we will always be.
Hey, even the Saints finally won a Super Bowl.
#gmstrong
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OS: first off... props on the "someone better/4days post." It was rich... and gave a a smile in a week that Brownies have had little to smile about. As to your post: Quote:
Starting when? 09? 10?
And do you really want to give people extensions without results?
:
Starting with the current regime's date of hire. As has been mentioned by others, Holmy's first year with Mangini MUST be factored in in his assessment. His choice- his legacy to own.
As to gactor #2: It all depends upon Lerner's definition of "results."
Is it +.500 for the season?
Is it team unity/dynamics?
Is it overall improvement across att 3 teams?
Or is it some other intangible factor?
That's where the gray area exists in pro football with "transitional teams."
How soon is it time to pull the plug?
How soon is too soon?
If there was a fool-proof formula to answer those questions, teams like the Browns and Lions wouldn't ecists for more than 2-3 years.
Hence.... here we are.
Truth be told, it's always just before the 'breakthrough' that things are at their diciest. Shouyld the owner continue fishing or cut bait? It's been MHO that at least twice now, the line has been cut JUST before the fish jumped on the hook.... and all we have to show for it is 13 years of cellar-dwelling.
IMHO, Randy shoul leave these guys alone for 5 solid years. Why? Because in the tortured history of the modern Cleveland Browns, it's the only tactic that HASN'T been tried.
Time to try something new, dammit.
4 years is the crossover point, as best I can tell. 4 years is the longest this knee-jerk, quick-fix mentality hs ever allowed.
Strive for five.
just sayin'
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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I think the best thing Lerner could do after this season is while not "put faith" in H&H, but at least say "They're not getting fired any time soon"
At least that would (not really) stop the pirana to a point.
I like Heckert, people overstate his past two drafts a little bit, but he's the best personell guy we've had since 99.
Shurmur, I don't even know. I was a "Keep Mangini and bring in an OC" kind of guy but we're here now, I think it all revolves around the QB position.
Shanahan never won without Elway, Noll had Bradshaw, etc.
A coach can't really win nowadays without a good-great QB... So to me, a QB is almost more important than who's running the place... Is that weird?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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So to me, a QB is almost more important than who's running the place... Is that weird?
Not at all. The QB runs the show on the field. Even with good people at the top, you still need a good QB. Whether we have one or not is the big question. But circumstances have skewed the evaluation period for our QB, so we have no choice but to wait and see.
#gmstrong
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I have not been around much, but this thread is the silliest one yet.
I gage a team by how the draft choices are doing...
I think Heckert is solid as a personnel person, we all cringed when he took TJ ward, but it was a good move. Hardesty has not been the player that we envisioned, but for the most part the picks have been solid, and will contribute to the team for many years to come.
The Browns could be better if they participated more in free agency, but they have chose not to pursue that route. That is my only quibble.
I think they are where they are, and will continue to improve. The offense will need some love in the off season, and I expect that will be reflected in the draft.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Personally, I don't think it's a matter of "We can't build on anything because there's never a coaching staff here long enough to turn things around" so much as it's a case of "Lerner keeps hiring and/or settling for the wrong people over and over again." Doesn't matter if you give a bad coach 10 years if he's a bad coach!
Can you build a winner by scrapping the staff every 2-4 years? No. But it's also pretty obvious when you have new regime that is so incredibly clueless and inept in the fundamentals that 5 years of this milktoast, vanilla, timid "plan" isn't going to amount to a hill of beans.
I would rather see them re-hire someone like a Butch Davis and give him another 4 or 5 years that sit through another few years of Pat "Factory of Sadness" Shumur. At least it was obvious that Davis *tried.* Shurmur is more the type to punt when it's 4th and 2, we're down by 2 TDs, and there's 4 minutes left on the clock. Utter wuss. You can tell just from his demeanor that he doesn't have the passion, guts, or wisdom to turn this team into a winner. And Mike Holmgren is the one who thought this guy was the answer to our long suffering team. What a joke.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
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I'm not sure its quite that simple.
If you look at the wya Holmgren's career went, he was never a high strung guy who goes over the top in emotion. He always had an even demeanor with the occasional outburst. Thats the way he's been and thats the way Shurmur goes about things.
If you dont trust your offense to gain the couple yards, and really who can blame him, you punt.
He's in his 3rd year running an offense, and his first year also being a head coach. While he hasnt shown the acumen of a guy like Sean Payton to this point, you never know, Payton had Brees and company to make things happen, where we have Greg Little as our best offensive player.
the whole fire Holmgren is overblown.
While we havent made strides on the football field yet...our organization is sound for the first time ever. Our defense is improving although since we have Jauron we dont stop the run well. Our offense will get there, it just takes time. Unfortunately patience is key. Since we arent an organization in chaos people will come here, and we'll get it done the right way.
If we continue to flounder, we're still in better shape than we were before because we have a sound structure. Now we can get to the point where we just replace the guys if they dont work out, the structure has been created, if things dont work, we'll get it
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Quote:
He's in his 3rd year running an offense, and his first year also being a head coach. While he hasnt shown the acumen of a guy like Sean Payton to this point, you never know, Payton had Brees and company to make things happen, where we have Greg Little as our best offensive player.
You can also take into account that this is the first year he's running HIS offense.
We don't know what kind of input, if any, Spag had in STL... I know he was a defensive guy, but he still had to have SOME input on the offensive style right?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
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I have yet to read one real reason or compelling argument for retaining his services. Not one post stating that he's the best qualified person out there, doing a great job leading the organization, has the team and staff on the right track, is putting all the right pieces in place, or has a workable plan. It's all about starting over, being a moronic notion, or too expensive a proposition. News flash folks, those aren't reason for keeping him, they're merely excuses for not firing him.
Here's a reason. If this organization fired Holmgren this quickly without giving him time to build anything, who the heck do you think would be willing to put their career in the hands of the Cleveland Browns?
You really expected 2 years in, and first year with new HC, new OFF and Def systems to really show progress? Well then you were dillusional and should consider your ability to review anyone's performance and recommend a firing.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,821
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,821 |
just clicking...
As I have tried to point out, the subject of this thread was very predictable, if and when things got tough for the Browns this season. Also it's not a surprise to me to see "who" started it this thread.
Cal loved Mangini and never believed he should have been replaced even when Mangini's team went 5-11 in back to back years. So Holmgren keeps Mangini on for the 2010 season, but then after the season, Holmgren decides that Mangini is not his kind of head coach.
Suddenly, enemy #1 for some Browns fans, Mike Holmgren...which was very predictable when one considers the nature of some of today's "new type" of Browns fan, at the first sign of adversity.
Many of these "new type" of fan wants to complain that the Browns franchise has made too many changes since their return in 99, then when a season does not go as well as they would like, these fans call for the very change they just condemned as the downfall of the franchise since their return in 99....GO FIGURE.
It just seems some have never done anything tough in life and simply can't cope with their personal disappointment over the state of Browns football.
If everyone was looking for Holmgren to be the "perfect GM", that image should have been shattered when he made his first mistake, allowing Mangini a second season.
But Holmgren, being a man of his word stated he never thought a HC should be fired after just one season and he wasted a year of rebuilding the coaching staff by allowing Mangini and his entire coaching staff to stay on for the 2010 season....IT WAS A MISTAKE !
But Holmgren is not going to be the "perfect GM" some viewed him as when he was hired by Randy Lerner...he is going to make mistakes.
This season is just half over with the toughest part of the schedule ahead. Holmgren and Heckert will be watching and evaluating players and coaches to see how they perform in the face of adversity and there will be more changes to come as they weed out those individuals who are not capable of dealing with the adversity ahead.
Holmgren can't do anything about the fans and media...those who are weak, unrealistic and incapable of dealing with anything tough in life. Those looking for the easy quick fix to turn the Browns franchise into winners should feel free to get off the "Holmgren Bus" at any time they wish..obviously some have already.
...me, I'm riding "this Bus" until it finishes what it started, no matter how tough the road ahead is...but hey, that is just the way I'm wired...you got to be tough...even the fans!
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 814
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 814 |
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This is moronic.
IS this moronic.
A) Holmgren Rep is as a COACH not a GM. he did POORLY at that is Seattle and left them a MESS.
B) Holmgren reached for mediocrities Seneca Wallace and Jake "the Mistake" Delhomme and foisted them on his Coach( Mangini) Who has been said did NOT want them.
C) Herock had a decent draft after the nightmare Mangini Kokinis wrecked on this team.
D) the Front office decided to go a "new Direction" for head Coach.
Ryan and Mangini had this team playing TOUGH, they Blocked and tackled and beat some top teams. This year with a softer schedule we(the Browns) play like cream cheese, we are soft and sloppy. a new offense has done little to mask our sorry set of wrs whom the front office"liked" and decided we needed no help.
E) In free agency the Browns did NOT address lack of depth and poor starters on the Oline, DBs, OLB, RB, WR adequately and all are ulcers. and we dump a solid Blocking FB and gamble a rookie can do as well. How has that worked out.
F) the Coach calls a poor game, seems to make no adjustments. I never see him talk with his young QB to help him with his struggles.
Grades so far.1) Oline D- having no options and making believe we were set I give the front office a D-( we got one lineman).
2) WR F, thr front office sat on their hands in Free agency and played pretend we were set. now rely on a WR who did not even play his senior season as the go to guy as No One else stepped forward. Like a three stooges comedy stunt, everyone else stepped back a step leaving Little alone as the go to guy.
3)RB, the front office relied on oft injured hardesty, counted on Hillis to be Iron man and picked up a marginal talent free agent leaving the Browns thin and gambling Hillis could be the Total answer again...how has that worked out F.....
)QB it is a JOKE to evaluate McCoy when his receivers cannot get open. lead the NFL in drops, the line throws look out blocks , there is NO running game, no FB left in to block, poor play calling where we are so predictable..no "hot" receivers when McCoy is blitzed( Hall of Fame Dan Fouts observation last week). A coach who does not even consult with his struggling rookie who now seems to be the selected scapegoat of everyone. What a pathetic Joke the front office played on this kid setting him up to FAIL. F for the front office here as well.
Defense:
last year Ryan had this overmatched team playing tough. more talent infusion and this defense is SOFT. Poor tackling and angles. Only DQ and Joe Haden seem fired up. firing Ryan, whom players would have run through a wall for I think was instrumental in players wanting OUT. Losing some solid Talent hurt but this unit is so sloppy and not ONE defensive coach called timeout when the bengals ran a FREE play for the go ahead TD. SLOPPY.
LBers, our outside LBERs are so slow anyone can get the edge. there is little pass rush generated and our DBs are slow as well. we did almost nothing in free agency to buttress a solid draft. F
WE will finish 4-12. after 5-11 the genius decided a "new direction was needed". he hand picked a rookie head coach and then left him dangling by sitting on his hands in free agency. next year should bring a bumper crop yet I fear McCoy will be judged inferior. From where I sit the front office whiffed on getting him reliable targets at wr( lead NFL in Drops). left him hanging with no upgrades at oline, dumped a reliable FB blocker, and a rookie head coach that never huddles with his young QB.
I had more confidence in mangini, whom I did not like than this Coach. I see no game day adjustments, no leaving a FB in to block or a TE to help the horrid oline. I see directionless sloppy play while i see the QB take a pounding and giving it his all.
The front office gets an F. a B+ on the Draft but and F hiring this coach, doing nothing in key areas in free agency and leaving our young QB with No help. I am certain McCoy will play scapegoat to save the ass of the genius in year 3. You see what a real coach in SF does in ONE year.
While we had total buffoons running this team Holmgren lost my confidence bit by bit. step one was getting Jake washed up delhomme. step 2 was adding nothing to the oline and wrs this year. the pushing Rob Ryan out the door. and adding yet another rookie coach in over his head. This "team" is totally on the front office.
Directionless, sloppy, out muscled, out blocked out tackled...and did I say SLOPPY.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363 |
For the life of me I can't understand everybody praising Ryan's defense. We sucked last year against the run just like this year. IMO he was an overrated big mouth.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,077
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,077 |
Quote:
For the life of me I can't understand everybody praising Ryan's defense. We sucked last year against the run just like this year. IMO he was an overrated big mouth.
Some folks cried when Todd Grantham got canned, too. They loved his "fire" on the sidelines....
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,478
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,478 |
Ryan had positives and negatives, just like anyone. Ryan was also the reason we won those New Orleans and Patriots games.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 327
1st String
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1st String
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 327 |
Quote:
I could get on board with a fire Shurmur thread. Holmgren, not so much.
this.
Ruining QB's since 1999.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 |
Quote:
Quote:
I could get on board with a fire Shurmur thread. Holmgren, not so much.
this.
I second this.. but he's a first year head coach.. never had any head coaching experience.. hopefully time will make him better.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I could get on board with a fire Shurmur thread. Holmgren, not so much.
this.
I second this.. but he's a first year head coach.. never had any head coaching experience.. hopefully time will make him better.
Well hope springs eternal but I have lost all hope and I feel that Hol/Shurm are now tied at the hip like Savage/Crennel.
Keep the GM those other 2 fools can go.
Last edited by NickBrownsFan; 11/13/11 05:52 PM.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
j/c
There needs to be a meeting tonight. Holmgren and Shermur.
Tonight.
Do not pass go - sit down and have at it.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 |
the players need a meeting with the coach.. as a matter of fact.. just the offensive players..
If I'm a player, and I bust my butt to try and execute and run your plays.. you better give my QB a chance to win the damn game.
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