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If a QB cannot create big plays, then he is just a placeholder. McCoy is a placeholder.
yt...the west coast offense is not a home run type offense...it is a move the chains offense, therefore your emphasis on "big plays", is not likely to be what Shurmur and Holmgren base their decisions on.
I'm sure some believe McCoy's performance this year was far worse than any QB in the NFL...
FACT IS, McCoy's performance ranks him 18th in the NFL...not the best...but definitely not the worst.
Both Cincinnati and Carolina believe they have their franchise QBs, yet here in Cleveland, some fans and folks in the media believe McCoy is junk.
But looking at McCoy's numbers vs the rookie QBs on this list clearly show that McCoy's production is just shy of Dalton's. Has McCoy had the same quality of supporting cast that Dalton had in Cinci?
Here is some more information we need to digest before you answering the question concerning McCoy's supporting cast...
receiving
receiving
Not a pretty picture, is it?
Again, I'm having a very hard time justifying the Browns using their #1 pick to draft a QB. Maybe a QB in the later rounds...but honestly, I don't believe the Browns even need a QB in the later rounds.
There are just too many other needs on this team, defensively and offensively, to draft another QB and start over.
Is there anyone who believes McCoy will not be better in his second year in Shurmur's offensive system?
They say, "Defense wins Championships"...I'm starting to lean toward drafting defense in the first round.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Dawg Talker
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heres whats gonna happen.... the season is gonna end, and the browns will state that they are evaluating all positions to make the browns better. They won't specifically state that colt is the guy starting next year...and for all i know he might not be....I'm a firm believer that all these young guys need time to shine, before they become competent starters...especially at the qb position...especially in the wco... everyone that don't like colt's production will use this to prove how we will be drafting or getting a new qb through free agency. The reality of it is we will hear nothing except the browns like this qb in the draft...or that qb...why? because either we take them, or make other teams think we will... If the browns still think colt is the guy we won't know it until we don't draft a qb....if we can get more picks we will. If they don't think colt is the guy, then we pick a qb if we like him. sometime before that i'll get sick of reading much of the drivel that is posted here anymore, and i'll be happy and stress free until the start of next season. 
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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LOL!  That about captures the entire process, IMO 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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To better compare McCoy's numbers, I place him just below Dalton.
Rk..Player..Team..Pos..Comp..Att..Pct...Att/G...Yds....Avg...Yds/G...TD...Int..1st...1st%...Lng..20+..40+..Sck..Rate..
1...Newton...CAR...QB...283...475...59.6...33.9...3,722...7.8...265.9...17...16...158...33.3...77T...62...8...32...82.3..
2...Dalton.....CIN...QB...260...441....59.0...31.5...3,012...6.8...215.1...18...13...137...31.1...84...44...10...21...81.0.. 18..McCoy...CLE....QB...265...463....57.2...35.6...2,733...5.9...210.2...14...11...144...31.1...56...26.....5...32...74.6..
3...Ponder....MIN...QB...146...268....54.5...29.8...1,757...6.6...195.2...13...12....86....32.1...72...23....4...28...72.3..
4...Gabbert..JAC...QB...178...352....50.6...27.1...1,924....5.5...148.0...11...10....93...26.4...74T...21...4...36...65.6..
GM strong...
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Fewer drops and even if our WR's would just fall forward for a yard after catching the thing, those numbers would look SO much better.
Of course, fewer drops and WR's falling forward for one extra yard per catch, and we'd have sustained a helluva lot more drives, giving more opportunities, and probably would have scored more points (at least more FG's) - which would give MUCH better numbers.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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BrownieE...that is most likely, very close to how the Browns will be playing this draft..
If the Browns lose two more games, they are going to be in a very good position to make a deal with a team that wants a QB.
If the front office could pull off another blockbuster trade like they did last season, it might bring the franchise much closer to achieving their goal of rebuilding the team via the draft...much more so than drafting the 2nd or 3rd ranked QB who will play like a rookie QB next season, if he gets to play.
GM strong...
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Legend
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LOL That about sums it up
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Yeah? So? Dalton gets almost 1 full yard more for each and every pass attempt.
That's the difference between keeping drives alive and watching them stall.
30 pass attempts in a game and he gets almost 30 more yards passing. That creates opportunities, and turns 3rd and 1's into 1st down, and puts you into better 2nd and 3rd down situations to start with.
Further, McCoy does not in any way at all create big plays. Dalton has fewer pass attempts, yet far more big plays. McCoy is so far behind other QBs as far as 20+ yard, big play passes that it is incredible ... and sad.
Oh ... and yes, the WCO does have big play reads/routes in its structure.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Yea I'm not entirely sure why people harp on the WCO==small plays? the whole point of the WCO is just to replace the running play as your method of getting the D to collapse the short stuff to 'take the lid off the defense' to quote Mr Randy Moss
#gmstrong
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A lot of people don't understand the WCO. While there are a lot of shorter routes involved in the WCO, most teams incorporate shorter routes as part of their overall offensive packages anymore. The main difference is that the WCO is supposed to force the defense to defend sideline to sideline, and especially the quick plays within 15 yards of the LOS. There is a lot of YAC involved in making the WCO successful, so if passes are not on time, or not precisely on target, plays get blown up or go for a minimal gain. Then, as you said, the defense cheats up, the receiver runs a nice little hitch and go ...... and it's big play city.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Yeah? So? Dalton gets almost 1 full yard more for each and every pass attempt.
That's the difference between keeping drives alive and watching them stall.
30 pass attempts in a game and he gets almost 30 more yards passing. That creates opportunities, and turns 3rd and 1's into 1st down, and puts you into better 2nd and 3rd down situations to start with.
And, the Browns have 15 more drops than the bengals. 15 drops at an average of 6 yds. per drop...........hmmmmmmmmm, do the math. It makes your belittling of Colt seem absurd really.
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Further, McCoy does not in any way at all create big plays. Dalton has fewer pass attempts, yet far more big plays. McCoy is so far behind other QBs as far as 20+ yard, big play passes that it is incredible ... and sad.
Drops do that to you, don't they? How many of those drops would have gone for 15, or 20, or 40 yds. I don't know, and neither do you. So, it's a moot point.
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Oh ... and yes, the WCO does have big play reads/routes in its structure.
Not many - if it's there, you throw it. If it's not there, you go to who's open.
You harp on the "one more full yard per pass attempt - that's what keeps drives alive, that's what creates first downs...."
I'll say this: Colt has had his share of bad passes. Our TEAM has also had more than it's share of dropped passes. 15 more drops than the bengals, since you want to compare Colt to Dalton.
Imagine what MIGHT have been had 15 more passes been caught? I don't know, and you don't either, but I would guess we'd have had quite a few more drives. I would guess those extended drives would've led to more passing yards, and more points. You don't agree?
No one is saying Colt is the answer. However, it IS quite interesting to look at the stats - and when doing so, we see that Colt isn't as bad as the Colt haters would lead us to believe..........In fact, when the stats are looked at, and drops taken into consideration, and if we were to prognosticate what COULD'VE happened had those extra 15 drops not happened, we might see that Colt can be a decent quarterback. Perhaps - probably - not great, but decent.
Imagine what 15 more first downs would have done for the Browns. (I only use 15 because that is how many more drops the Browns have had over the bengals).
Imagine if the receivers actually did their JOB! You know, CATCH the damn ball. Just imagine. Let's say the Browns were at only 10 drops this year. Holy cow - that would be 28 more receptions. Imagine THAT.
But, it's all Colt's fault. Let's trade the farm to get Barkley - oh, wait, he's not coming out. Let's trade the farm to get an undersized RG3........oh, wait, we don't even know if he's going to be in the draft??? (I don't know - that's what you alluded to in a different thread).
Shoot, let's go for broke and trade all our first round picks for the next 4 years to move up and get Luck. Luck is a 50/50 proposition, as are all first round qbs..................WHOEVER we get if we draft a qb is going to still be throwing behind a lackluster line, to receivers that lead the league in drops.
Then, after 2 more years, we can say "well, we ruined another quarterback - let's draft the next stud", and we'll ruin him.
But what do I know - I'm no guru. According to the "geniuses" here, all we need is a qb and the line will block, our running backs won't get hurt, and our receivers will catch the balls. (oh, those same geniuses that wanted us to take a guy not even IN the draft, and another guy that apparently hasn't even declared for the draft)
With "geniuses" like that, I'll just take Colt, add some O line, a real receiver, and we'll play next year.
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Arch .. I have a question for you.
When you evaluate Colt McCoy's play and his skills, what do you see as his above average skills and abilities, what do you see as his NFL average skills and abilities, and what do you see as his deficiencies?
As far as drops .... if a QB has receivers drop 15 passes of 6 yards each ..... and he's averaging less than 6 yards/pass attempt .... that's going to have a really negligible impact on the bigger picture.
Give McCoy another 90 yards passing for the year. That's 15 drops at 6 yards per. What does that do to his yards/attempt? That would out him at 2823 yards instead of 2733. That would still have him below 6.1 yards/attempt ..... and still doesn't address the lack of big plays. Hell, make his receivers perfect ....and he's still not going to get over 6.2 yards/attempt.
No one gets perfect receivers though.
Anyway ... I really hope that you'll answer my earlier questions, because I am really curious what people see when they evaluate McCoy's play that I don't see.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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if a QB has receivers drop 15 passes of 6 yards each ..... and he's averaging less than 6 yards/pass attempt .
I'm not sure if that's a fair assessment... Your assuming because his avg is 5.9 that those dropped passes were at 6yds..
If those dropped passes were at 9 yds then his avg would be higher...correct ?
In all fairness the receivers dropped passes at 10 + yds...which shows on his avg..
I'm going to see what Wallace does this week...and maybe next...If Little excels..then it will be easier for me to form an opinion on Colt...
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Arch .. I have a question for you.
When you evaluate Colt McCoy's play and his skills, what do you see as his above average skills and abilities
First of all, I am NOT an NFL talent evaluator. Okay? (and neither is anyone on this board, just for the record).
Above average? Very little, if anything. That's ABOVE average, okay?
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, what do you see as his NFL average skills and abilities,
Average skills? Accuracy. And, call me crazy, but his velocity on short passes is just fine. Ability to read defenses? Heck, I have no idea, nor does anyone else on this board. First of all, NONE of us know the play calls, who's the first read, the second read, etc. For any one to insinuate they do is ludicrous.
He scrambles average to above average. His timing is about average, and I think with a bit more "comfort" In the offense, he'll improve that. I might be wrong. But, without a decent line, and even semi decent receivers, we'll never know for sure. And, I'm sorry - we have little in the way of receivers, and contrary to popular belief, our line isn't average. Yes, we have a great player in Thomas.......but he's one of 5. The rest of our line is at best average, mostly below average. I am just one that feels things like that need to be factored in to the Colt "evaluation". Call me crazy. I'm also one that thinks a Manning in his prime doesn't make this team much better.
But, I'm just like you. NOT an nfl coach, executive, or scout.
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and what do you see as his deficiencies?
He's a split second off on many of his throws. That can be corrected. He's too quick to leave what passes as a "pocket" in Cleveland. That can be corrected when the line does it's job. He doesn't have a rifle arm.
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As far as drops .... if a QB has receivers drop 15 passes of 6 yards each ..... and he's averaging less than 6 yards/pass attempt .... that's going to have a really negligible impact on the bigger picture.
Come on, you're better than that. First of all, the 15 drops was in reference to the comparison to Dalton. The Browns have 15 more drops than the bengals.
Secondly, what did those 15 "extra" drops, and 38 drops total, cost the Browns? How many drive killing drops were there? Neither of us can answer that - but I have an idea that if passes were caught, we'd extend more drives - and you disagree with that?
I have an idea that Colt would have more 20+ yards IF receivers caught the ball at even an average rate. Would you disagree?
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Give McCoy another 90 yards passing for the year. That's 15 drops at 6 yards per. What does that do to his yards/attempt?
Who cares? What matters is, what does that do for the Browns.
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That would out him at 2823 yards instead of 2733. That would still have him below 6.1 yards/attempt ..... and still doesn't address the lack of big plays. Hell, make his receivers perfect ....and he's still not going to get over 6.2 yards/attempt.
According to...........? There will never be perfect receivers. I would guess even Jerry Rice had a drop or 2. What matters is receivers dropping balls that would've been first downs, or would've been big gainers, drops that would've kept drives alive.
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No one gets perfect receivers though.
Anyway ... I really hope that you'll answer my earlier questions, because I am really curious what people see when they evaluate McCoy's play that I don't see.
Again - I am not an nfl talent evaluator. And neither are you, or anyone else on here, regardless of how highly some think of themselves.
I'm stating my opinion.
Put Luck (as some want to mortgage the freaking farm for him) on this team, I don't see much improvement. Put Peyton at qb, I don't see much of an improvement. Sorry - when it's 3rd and 8 and your receivers run a 6 yd pattern, it's tough to get a first down.
Add in no running game - there isn't a qb around that does much more than win 1 more game than the Browns have. (and don't forget the 2 wins left on the table due to bad special teams snaps, and don't forget the loss due to terrible special teams kick coverage)
To sell out the future, with all the holes we have, in the HOPE (and that's all a draft pick is - a hope) is stupid. Build the TEAM, and watch the results. This, contrary to the microwave society, the video game society, the sit com society - is not something that is fixed overnight, no matter WHO you draft.
It's called life. It's called "can we finally give a team 5 years before we blow it up and start again?"
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I just don't know. I'm sitting here watching the Thursday night game with the Colts and Texans fighting it out, Neither offense can really get much going. Stack the box and stop the run. No one is scared of the other QB. I still see Collie,Garcon and Wayne running the same routes, Adai is still pounding the ball up the middle ( trying) but it doesn't look the same without Manning back there. And the MORE I think about it, Colt or Wallace or most other QB's wouldn't do the Colts any better than the stiffs they have now.
The DIFFERENCE maker is the QB. I think a great QB would make all our receivers look good and the running game would be lots better no matter who we stuck back there. Some say build the team first, some say start with a great QB. I know it takes a balance all around but If I have a shot a someone who is suppose to end up being a franchise type QB with all the skill sets coming out of college, I take him no matter what. And another and another, until I get him. Barring that, I'll take a dominate defense and good FG kicker cause without a great QB thats the only way you have a shot at winning.
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Legend
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Quote:
Put Luck (as some want to mortgage the freaking farm for him) on this team, I don't see much improvement. Put Peyton at qb, I don't see much of an improvement. Sorry - when it's 3rd and 8 and your receivers run a 6 yd pattern, it's tough to get a first down.
Add in no running game - there isn't a qb around that does much more than win 1 more game than the Browns have. (and don't forget the 2 wins left on the table due to bad special teams snaps, and don't forget the loss due to terrible special teams kick coverage)
To sell out the future, with all the holes we have, in the HOPE (and that's all a draft pick is - a hope) is stupid. Build the TEAM, and watch the results. This, contrary to the microwave society, the video game society, the sit com society - is not something that is fixed overnight, no matter WHO you draft.
If Luck is 3/4 the QB Manning is/was ... hell, 1/2 ... then I pull that trigger, no question. What do I have to give for it?
Yes, that guy, if he is that guy, or even close to it, is a guy you move up for.
With that said ... I'm with you in the sense that we have a ton of holes that need filled. If we swing a deal for Luck ... I'll be happy ... but I'll be scared.
It would be an all-in bet for us, at this point.
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And the Colts just got a early Xmas present ! Give me a a young Reggie Wayne and a Stud QB and I'll give you excitment, hope and POINTS.
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Colts win...does that change anything?? If all 3 teams finish 2-14...what's the order?
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First of all, I am NOT an NFL talent evaluator. Okay? (and neither is anyone on this board, just for the record).
Of course not. We are fans. In some cases, fans who have watched football for decades, and who have some idea of what works, and what does not work, on the football field. We can use what we have seen to project what we see as successful and not successful regarding plays, and players. This message board would be a very quiet place if we didn't have opinions regarding such things.
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Average skills? Accuracy. And, call me crazy, but his velocity on short passes is just fine. Ability to read defenses? Heck, I have no idea, nor does anyone else on this board. First of all, NONE of us know the play calls, who's the first read, the second read, etc. For any one to insinuate they do is ludicrous.
He scrambles average to above average. His timing is about average, and I think with a bit more "comfort" In the offense, he'll improve that. I might be wrong. But, without a decent line, and even semi decent receivers, we'll never know for sure. And, I'm sorry - we have little in the way of receivers, and contrary to popular belief, our line isn't average. Yes, we have a great player in Thomas.......but he's one of 5. The rest of our line is at best average, mostly below average. I am just one that feels things like that need to be factored in to the Colt "evaluation". Call me crazy. I'm also one that thinks a Manning in his prime doesn't make this team much better.
But, I'm just like you. NOT an nfl coach, executive, or scout.
See I do not see accuracy as a plus for McCoy, and here is why. Any NFL QB can hit the really short stuff. I look back to Brady Quinn as an example. He completed passes, especially the short passes, mush as McCoy does. They play very similar games. However, neither Quinn nor McCoy throws passes that allow the receiver to do much after the catch. They throw receivers into coverage. They both seem to lack that anticipation of when a receiver is about to break open. They both can throw the ball, and complete short passes ..... but damn near every QB in the NFL can do that. This is an expected NFL QB skill, not something special.
Scrambling is a plus and minus. If a QB does not know and understand what is going on around him , then he can roll into pressure. To me "scrambling" is such an overrated skill. I would rather have a QB who can see, understand, and dissect what is happening around him. I do not see that with McCoy.
People talk about the line, and the receivers, and everything else ......however the QB and receivers have a symbiotic relationship. Same with the QB and the Line. Do receivers make a QB, or do QBs make receivers? I happen to think that a QB improves a receiver far more than the opposite. I look at guys like Derek Anderson, who left the Browns and went to Arizona. he got one of the finest WR in the entire NFL. He had Fitzgerald, yet it did not improve him.
Look at those very Cardinals when Kurt Warner retired. They went down the tubes. Look at the Colts without Manning. Very much the same team ...... but they have gone to hell without Manning.
I will definitely call you crazy if you think that Manning in his prime would not help this team immensely. Wow .... I really cannot believe that you truly think that. Look at how Cam Newton improved the Panthers. Look at how Dalton improved the Bengals. Look at how Brees improved the Saints. Look at how Tom Brady took a "very average" team to their 1st Super Bowl all those years ago.
QBs have a HUGE impact on the rest of their team ...... especially on the receivers, and on the line as well.
Oh, and of course we're not NFL Scouts. I don't think that you have to be to have an opinion any more than you have to be President in order to vote in an election.
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He's a split second off on many of his throws. That can be corrected. He's too quick to leave what passes as a "pocket" in Cleveland. That can be corrected when the line does it's job. He doesn't have a rifle arm.
He is more than a split second off. He is off in both timing and placement. He waits, and waits, and waits ..... then throws to a covered guy in a spot where the receiver cannot make a play afterwards. He lacks basic anticipation. I do not think this can be corrected. He definitely does not have an NFL arm. He has a pocket far more often than you would give the line credit for.
As far as the yardage .... you brought up the drops as a reason for his deficiency in certain areas. My point is that, even if you give him every one of those drops, and make the receivers perfect, he still would be one of the worst in the NFL as far as yards/pass attempt. People can blame a whole lot of other parts of the team, but in the end, the QB's play .... just like every other player on the team's play ... must stand on its own.I do not believe that McCoy's play is winning.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Too much math for me figuring out SOS but I think it mucks it up a bit.Still two games to go for the other teams so it's still guessing,
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Well they just said if the Colts lose next week against the JAGs they still get the No 1.
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Legend
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Quote:
Yeah? So? Dalton gets almost 1 full yard more for each and every pass attempt.
That's the difference between keeping drives alive and watching them stall.
30 pass attempts in a game and he gets almost 30 more yards passing. That creates opportunities, and turns 3rd and 1's into 1st down, and puts you into better 2nd and 3rd down situations to start with.
Further, McCoy does not in any way at all create big plays. Dalton has fewer pass attempts, yet far more big plays. McCoy is so far behind other QBs as far as 20+ yard, big play passes that it is incredible ... and sad.
Oh ... and yes, the WCO does have big play reads/routes in its structure.
YT...have you compared the supporting cast Dalton has VS. the supporting cast McCoy has?....
You just ignore the "facts" and toss out some drivel about 1 full yd per pass attempt...completely ignoring the supporting cast each QB has.
Browns receivers have had 15 more drops than Bengal receivers...YT, dropped passes, do they make a difference?
The Browns pass protection has given up 13 more sacks (35) than the Bengals pass protection (22)...
The Browns pass protection has allowed their QB to be "hit" 77 times...ranking the Oline 28th in the NFL. web page
....while the Bengals pass protection has allowed only 52 hits on Dalton...ranking the Bengals Oline 4th.
The Browns RUSH OFFENSE ranks 31st in the NFL, averaging 3.6 yds per carry.
YT, you tell me, has McCoy's "supporting cast" done a very good job?
Summary...
...the Browns receivers drop the most passes in the NFL (38)
...the Browns offensive line ranks 20th in sacks allowed (35)
...the Browns offensive line ranks 28th in qb hits allowed (77)
...the Browns rushing game ranks 31st in yds per attempt (3.6)
"Anyone" comparing McCoy's performance at QB, while ignoring the performance of McCoy's supporting cast are being blatantly unfair to him.
If anything, these numbers should give Browns fans an good indication of just how many positions, need to be upgraded in the 2012 draft...and that is just on the offensive side.
GM strong...
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mac, did you realize that the Bengals sucked last year, even with much of the same supporting cast that Dalton has?
They replaced 2 great WRs with 1 great rookie. Chad Ochocinco and Terelle Owens had really great years last year. OchoCinco had 831 yards and 4 TDs, and Owens had 983 yards with 9 TDs.
Both of those guys left. They added Green who had 1007 yards and 7 TDs. Other than that they have Gresham, Simpson, and Caldwell ... who are all decent receivers .... but hardly "set the world on fire, OMG we MUST prepare to stop them!" type receivers. They are decent receivers ..... but nothing special. They are much like our receivers.
I am really curious to see how our receivers look for the next 2 games. I would say that the receivers, as a group, had their best game of the season last week against the Cardinals. That's saying something considering that the Cardinals have Peterson at CB.
Anyway, we'll have a good comparison point coming up with tests against the Rats and Steelers.
Against the Rats, in Cleveland, McCoy went 17-35 for 192 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, and we scored 10 points. (7 on the final drive of the game) McCoy was sacked 3 times in this game.
Against the Steelers, in Pittsburgh, McCoy went 18-35 for 209, 0 TD, 2 INT, and we scored 3 points. McCoy was sacked 3 times in this game.
You know that the Steelers are going to be big time mad because of how tough the Browns played them last time. It will be interesting to see how the defense plays them this time around.
Then, when the year is over ... we'll wait .......
And we'll have Free agency and the draft ....... and that will tell the story of what the front office and coaches think.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Why is McCoy being compared to rookies?
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Because people feel that somehow last year doesn't count .... and it wouldn't be "fair" to compare him to anyone except a rookie.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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OP
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Quote:
mac, did you realize that the Bengals sucked last year, even with much of the same supporting cast that Dalton has?
YT...having a hard time digesting the truth...the facts?
I didn't read past your first line above...we are not talking about "last year"...
I made it very clear, I was making a "fair comparison"...comparing the play of Dalton's supporting cast to McCoy's supporting cast, IN 2011.
If you want to make a fair comparison based on the performance of the supporting cast for Dalton and McCoy...fine...
...BUT, I have a feeling you want to run away from the facts.
Dalton plays behind one of the very best Olines in the NFL
McCoy played behind one of the worst Olines
Dalton's receivers do not suffer the droppsies
McCoy's receivers have dropped 15 more passes than Daltons...
From this list of receivers who have dropped the most passes in the NFL this season, the Browns have 3 or the top 15 positions.
#1 ranked...Greg Little=12 drops
#9 ranked...Ben Watson=7 drops
#15 ranked...Hardesty=6 drops
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GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Legend
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Oh boo hoo ...... so receivers drop balls.
Torrey Smith in Baltimore dropped a lot too. I remember the announcers bringing it up during our first game against them.
I don't hear anyone blaming him for Flacco not having as good a year as he could.
Every QB has stuff he could use as excuses. Hell, Roethlisberger could sue his line for complete and total non-support. Guys like that just keep playing, and making plays. We have a guy that people make excuses for.
Here's a hint .... excuses never won a single ballgame.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Quote:
Because people feel that somehow last year doesn't count .... and it wouldn't be "fair" to compare him to anyone except a rookie.
 This coming from the guy who constantly compares him to Rodgers and Manning and Brees...
yebat' Putin
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I compare him to everyone.
I also compared him to guys like Tavaris Jackson, Matt Moore, and others.
I only "compared" him to guys like Rodgers when someone else brought up their names.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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1st String
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I have been a defender of Colt and still am (at least to the extent that I haven't wanted to take a QB in the first round this year and definitely not trade up to do so), however, with Colt still having concussion symptoms, we do have to face the possibility that he got Crosby'd and thus at least consider taking a QB in the 2-3rd round as a backup in case Colt may not be able to go (or gets quickly re-injured) next year. I really hope he can and does play against Pitt just to see how he holds up.
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I'd like to see him play against Pittsburgh and drill a throw into Harrison's facemask or cup from about 2 yards away.
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Hall of Famer
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Im stunned at the AJ Green, Jerome Simpson, Andre Caldwell and Jermaine Gresham being compared to our wideouts as on the same level.
Seriously?! AJ Green has 1000 as a rookie, and Simpson was coming on bigtime until his drug arrest, and Caldwell outperformed Ochocinco late last year in fact overtaking him...They replaced two great wideouts? Look at the past year...you even listed their stats...those are not great stats by any stretch. Furthermore...the headcases that they were made the team much worse. This year its a TEAM not guys out there for stats. that says so much.
Comparing Greg Little, Josh Cribbs (the oft injured Josh Cribbs), Jordan Norwood, Brian Robiskie, and Ben Watson to the Bengals wideouts is like comparing good to bad and saying you choose which you would prefer.
As for Colt...I want to see him play another year, with a standard leash. Give him the keys with a full offseason. If he blows it...then by week 8 you turn the keys over to Seneca and salvage what you can (make a late season turnaround and enter the playoffs if you can get there with momentum). If after that, Seneca doesnt look like a starter, then we go get Matt Barkley or someone else.
This team has too many holes to replace both Colt and Seneca Wallace...between the two we have good enough quarterback play to win games.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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I see our fans being just like the Jets fans were with Pennington.
Yea he was good, and year the team won playoff games...but that wasnt good enough because he didnt laser the ball...You would think that a franchise like Cleveland that had a QB like Kosar who had almost no attributes of an NFL QB would be more forgiving to a guy who doesnt have all the "tools" of an Aaron Rodgers. I understand that we havent won a lot of games...and the 0-8 v. the division is concerning...but that isnt a product of Colt...look at our division record in the past 8 years...garbage. Colt isnt the reason we stink v. the division.
Drawing from the Bradford comparison thread. Anyone that says that Bradford passes the eye test and Colt doesnt is looking for velocity and nothing more. Thats the curse of the Browns fan right now...Velocity is the only thing that seems to matter because Colt doesnt use it on every throw (which is a product of his footwork more than anything right now)...which i find to be incredibly weird because DA had all the velocity in the world but sucked. maybe we should get him back...no he didnt have touch, now we have a guy with touch but no good.
Im really scattered in this...but, we have a QB that has 20 starts...and were ready to call him dead. we have people call him a hobbit, although he is bigger than his backup who is receiving praise for moving the offense...we have people call him dolt even though his decision making is much improved over the last 10 QBs weve had starting here (barring his 1 bad throw he seems to make a game).
I really think that we would be down on guys like Matt Stafford, Matt Ryan, Mark Sanchez (i dont care for him though), Tim Tebow, Mike Vick, Jay Cutler (oh god wed kill Jay Cutler)...cuz they make mistakes. If we've learned anything...its that no QB can succeed unless they have a DA first half and then get better. He cant go from mediocre to good...doesnt happen in the NFL right? Especially when they have 1 half offseason (15 practices) in the system before the season starts...Once the season starts...improvements arent really noticeable, because all of the teams improve about the same. Well the good teams get better faster, and the bad teams stagnate and dont improve.
this team, even under Colt has improved. They move the ball better. They dont go 3 and out very often (which is a sign of good things to come in my opinion).
Pat Shurmur hasnt coached a QB 2 years in a row in his system yet. Lets give him a shot at it before we throw someone else into it and call it over. We actually have a VERY VERY solid stable of QBs...Between Colt, Seneca, and Thaddeus. We have a starter who works his tail off to improve, a backup with experience and talent, and a 3rd who is young and with time in the system could come in and not be horrible. A guy with all the measurables that we want in a QB...just not the college success or whatever to drive him to the top of draft boards.
Would we want Ryan Fitzpatrick here? or would we run him out of town with what hes done in Buffalo?
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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I did not compare Green to our wideouts.  Look at Simpson, Caldwell, and Gresham. Gresham: TE. 46 catches for 468 yards and 5 TD. Decent year, but not really spectacular. Watson had 37 catches for 410 yards and 2 TD before his injuries. He has also had 3 concussions this year, and had missed time. Last year Watson caught 68 for 763 yards.I don't see a clear advantage for the Bengals there. Simpson has 40 catches for 629 yards. Last year he had 20 for 277. Big whoop. Caldwell has 37 catches for 317 yards. Last year he had 35 for 345. Pardon me if I am not fitting them for Hall of Fame rings. Massaquoi has 27 catches for 351 yards. Cribbs has 32 for 399. Little has 57 for 669. Norwood has 23 for 268. Our guys are comparable. The difference is that their guy throws TD passes ... to all of them.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Quote:
Because people feel that somehow last year doesn't count .... and it wouldn't be "fair" to compare him to anyone except a rookie.
it really doesn't count for much.. I mean, this is a new year, new coach, new system, new everything.. and virtually no time to install anything.
What about that makes you or anyone else think that he shouldn't be considered a rook.. that plus any time he got last season was based solely on every QB in front of him going down with injury and him being mostly an afterthought prior to when the team ABSOLUTLY needed him.
Look, I don't know if he's the guy,, But these unrelenting attacks based in incomplete view of facts is just flat out ridiculous.
It shows how little common sense so many actually have.
And for those that think we got a shot at Luck,, Gimmeabreak.. it's not going to happen..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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All Pro
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I just finished watching every play of RG3 from those two games. I was very impressed with his accuracy. I thought I would see a lot more productive exciting runs but there just wasn't many at all. He looked fast but he didn't make my jaw drop when he ran. One play he did hurdle a player which is his thing, but it didn't look amazing to me. He also took a lot more sacks than I was expecting and didn't seem to have a nose for the end zone when he was running. He also looked very small out there. Some of his best throws were as a pocket passer from the shotgun. I'm trying to imagine him in a Browns uniform trying to take most snaps from under center and running for his life while throwing to the receivers that Colt threw to this year. I don't see our record being that much better if he were to have started this year without any training camp.
I know I am being overly critical, but I really did expect to see him be more impressive as a runner. I won't be mad if we get him, but I will understand if we pass. He isn't Cam Newton or Michael Vick.
If we get Colt a true #1 WR, get a solid RT and get Steiny back and give Colt a whole training camp to prepare, I think we can sniff playoffs. Colt will improve if we are patient.
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He shouldn't be considered a rookie because he has gone through a training camp the previous year. He has seen NFL game speed. He knows how to prepare for an NFL defense or should because of last year and he had some time to work with most of the players on offense during last season. He has gone against some of the better defenses in the league before this season as well unlike the rookies anyone would like to compare him to. Even though it's a new offense he still had 8 pro games under his belt. It doesn't matter how he got to play last year, he played.
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Legend
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Quote:
He shouldn't be considered a rookie because he has gone through a training camp the previous year. He has seen NFL game speed. He knows how to prepare for an NFL defense or should because of last year and he had some time to work with most of the players on offense during last season. He has gone against some of the better defenses in the league before this season as well unlike the rookies anyone would like to compare him to. Even though it's a new offense he still had 8 pro games under his belt. It doesn't matter how he got to play last year, he played.
Exactly.
Well said.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Hall of Famer
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If we are really set on getting another Qb it should NOT be through the draft...not this time...
We should use a draft pick and make the trade to Green Bay for Matt Flynn
Flynn is as good or better then any Qb coming out of this draft. He has sat behind Rogers and Farve for 3 + years, and he already knows our WCO system. The kid has a CANNON for an arm and is nearly pinpoint accurate...if Rogers got hurt, Flynn could start and win games for them...infact..I think if Flynn would get extended playing time he could take rogers job...Flynn has just not gotten the chance...he is a very good QB...and i do believe he will be availabel this offseason....
You folks may think im talking up Flynn..but im telling you...if Rogers got hurt and couldn't play for an extended period..Flynn would take his job...he would play well enough that the Packers could unload rogers and his salary..im tellin ya Flynn is the leagues best kept secret...
Flynn will most likely be able to be had in 2012...he can make all throws, knows the system, and we can actually compete right way from day one with a young Qb instead of waiting 2-3 years for a guy to learn the system..na dwe can focus on WR, OL, LB, and DL is the draft and FA....if we doin't want to go with McCoy then we should look at Flynn....he will be a good Qb in this league...we couldn't go wrong taking a flier on him..
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