|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331 |
Matt Schuab?
- Either way, I don't want FA Matt Flynn.
I'd like to draft a QB (Luck/RG3) or try to continue to develop Colt McCoy. Either really fix the position or work with what we have and continue to improve the rest of our team.
I do think McCoy will be better next year. There's no reason that he won't get better. Another year of learning the west coast offense, and another off-season to work out, get bigger, improve his accuracy. More time with the QB coach, OTA's to improve timing. I think we'd see a better Colt. Would he be great? I dunno. But with better weapons, he'll be better.
Throwing money into someone like Flynn is just as big of a risk as a big draft pick. After watching Matt Cassel and Kevin Kolb fall on their faces, I have a tough time grabbing Matt Flynn. I watched him a lot in college and never was very impressed. Green Bay is a team that's running on all cylinders, they're in a rhythm, winning breeds winning. Come to Cleveland and let's see you throw 5 TD's in one game.....
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 01/01/12 09:06 PM.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
Quote:
Has any backup ever signed a big deal and it actually worked out for the team signing him?
Matt Schaub
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
Griffin averages more than 2 yards more per attempt over Smith that year. Not to mention he's a much more accurate QB. Not to mention, RGIII has played extremely well ever since he started at Baylor. Freshman year till now.
RGIII is a much better QB than Troy Smith ever was in College.
you had a good run Hank.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,802
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,802 |
Scott Mitchell, Matt Kassel, Byron Leftwhich, etc.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
Quote:
Ask Green Bay, Putzburgh, NE, etc, who are never drafting that high in the draft but still are playoff bound ever year picking in the 20s or later?
i think it has something to do with the QB's they have.. just maybe..
We all know Brady was a 6th round pick, but Rodgers fell to the 24 selection to Green Bay and even Roethlisberger fell out of the top 10 picks. Flacco, who led his team to the #2 seed and first round bye this year was a 2nd round pick.
Considering where McCoy was drafted and the talent on the offensive side of the ball that he's had, I think it's remarkable what he's been able to accomplish.
The team was better last year than it was this year. That ain't saying a lot, but under the new HC the team regressed with younger players and better talent.
A new scheme - a poor version of the WCO, a new head coach - with a football IQ of a Jr Varsity second stringer, a new defensive system - one that did remarkably well because the DC actually knows the system he's running, and yet we went 4-12, one win worse than Mangini's 5-11 of last year.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Ask Green Bay, Putzburgh, NE, etc, who are never drafting that high in the draft but still are playoff bound ever year picking in the 20s or later?
i think it has something to do with the QB's they have.. just maybe..
We all know Brady was a 6th round pick, but Rodgers fell to the 24 selection to Green Bay and even Roethlisberger fell out of the top 10 picks. Flacco, who led his team to the #2 seed and first round bye this year was a 2nd round pick.
Considering where McCoy was drafted and the talent on the offensive side of the ball that he's had, I think it's remarkable what he's been able to accomplish.
The team was better last year than it was this year. That ain't saying a lot, but under the new HC the team regressed with younger players and better talent.
A new scheme - a poor version of the WCO, a new head coach - with a football IQ of a Jr Varsity second stringer, a new defensive system - one that did remarkably well because the DC actually knows the system he's running, and yet we went 4-12, one win worse than Mangini's 5-11 of last year.
I one hundred percent disagree with this. I believe the WCO is fine, and is being run correctly. It's that balls are not being put in the right place and WR'ers are dropping passes because they suck.
Improvement and an upgrade is need at both QB and WR. And our draft picks should reflect this.
you had a good run Hank.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 816
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 816 |
Just FYI, Flacco was a 1st rounder, not 2nd.
He was selected #18 overall in 2008.
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
Totally disagree.
And look at New England, not picking high has hurt that team. Look at that defense. If it wasn't for Brady, they're worse than the Browns.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with trading out of a high pick, but you can't keep doing it.
New England is the AFC #1 seed. They're in the playoffs every year. Of course, it has something to do with the players, but it has more to do with the coaching of those players.
If you can get multiple 1st round picks and multiple 2nd round picks, think you can continue to do it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
Just FYI, Flacco was a 1st rounder, not 2nd.
He was selected #18 overall in 2008.
You're right. I had a brain fart. It doesn't hurt the case that you can't draft a QB further back than the Top 5 for a playoff quality QB.
The problem isn't that there isn't talent further down in the first, second, third and even fourth rounds of the draft. It's being able to acquire these talented players and using them properly. That's due to coaching.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
I would love to know what Holmgren, Heckert, Shurmur and the rest of the bigwigs with the Browns think of RG3, behind closed doors, no posturing, no BS'ing. Just an honest assessment of whether or not he can run this system.
Dying to know.
I can answer that for you. RG3 can't run the system that they want to implement here. Furthermore, I don't think it matters what Shurmur thinks.
The draft choices will be made by Heckert or with Holmgren overruling him. Shurmur might be asked, but it won't make any impact on how either Heckert or Holmgren drafts.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
So the coaches input on a player doesn't impact whether or not a player will be drafted? That doesn't seem very healthy. It sounds like the opposite of the Mangini/Kokinis relationship.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,459 Likes: 32
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,459 Likes: 32 |
Quote:
Draft order, top 10, since Seattle is still playing at this time, but they would be 11 or later, not top 10.
1 - Indy
2 - Stl
3 - Min
4 - CLEVELAND
5 - TB
6 - Washington
7 - Jax
8 - Miami
9 - Carolina
10 - Buffalo
These are locked in, all teams with 6 wins or less, seattle has 7 already so no bearing on top 10.
Flip flop Miami and Carolina.
They're both 6-10 and have equal SoS at .5039. The next tie-breaker is Division winning% where Carolina is .3333 and Miami is .5000.
Refer to my spreadsheet in the Atlanta and Draft Order thread  .
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
RG3 = Troy Smith. Except he doesn't even take snaps from under center.
Smith was mobile but preferred to stay in the pocket. He had a strong arm. He was accurate. He was dominant in college. He won the Heisman.
We all know how well that translated to the NFL.
No thanks.
Couldn't agree more. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
I don't think he's Troy Smith. I think he is a better Dan LeFevour.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,594 Likes: 238
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,594 Likes: 238 |
Quote:
I don't think he's Troy Smith. I think he is a better Dan LeFevour.
who is Dan LeFevour? a 6th round pick?
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
I don't remember where he was picked. I do know his college numbers and games remind me of RGIII, only RGIII played better competition.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Right. I don't want RGIII either. Not at where we'll be picking anyway. But I do think he is better than LeFevour, who also put up ridiculous numbers in college.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,025 Likes: 1
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,025 Likes: 1 |
by the way, graff, thanks for putting that together all year.
I really hope you don't have to do this in the future.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,462 Likes: 12
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,462 Likes: 12 |
Quote:
The Browns should trade down with the Seahawks. This team has too many holes to be filled. The Browns have very little impact on the field from Savage and Mangini's drafts...Mack,Thomas,Rubin and Jackson..thats it.
None of those are what I would consider difference makers.
This upcoming draft will probally be the most important since the 99 return
unlike the impact players the H&H drafts have brought us,which are....hmmm,wow,uh,gee,ahh,maybe Sheard?
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,962 Likes: 352
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,962 Likes: 352 |
Just in general .....
I've said it before and I'll say it again ...... I would definitely take a gamble on a guy potentially being great ..... or busting ... at the single most important position on the football field. I think that RG3 brings a LOT to the table, and I think that he'll be a great pro QB. He has absolutely everything except 2 inches in height and experience in a pro style offense. He can,however, make every throw necessary, and can do so on time, and with accuracy. (Not just hitting a spot, but hitting a receiver so he can make yards after the catch) He has leadership and super intelligence. I would definitely take a chance on him being a great QB. If I'm wrong, then I would live with it ..... but he has a chance to be a real game changer .... and there aren't going to be many of those available in this draft ..... even at 4. There will be good players ..... but players with flaws compared to similar players in past drafts. Put the whole picture together and it makes no sense not to take a chance on a QB in this draft ... especially one with proven ability to turn around a bad team, and to carry a bad team.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Haden? Taylor? Ward? Lauvao? Pinkston? Little? All are at least average NFL starters.
(Little ended his rookie season with 709 receiving yards, pretty good for a rookie who hadn't played football for a year, I'm excited to see what he can do in the future.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,462 Likes: 12
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,462 Likes: 12 |
we are talking impact players,not avg.starters.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Haden? Taylor? Ward? Lauvao? Pinkston? Little? All are at least average NFL starters.
AVG is used too lax around here....AVG means that half the other starters in the league are worse and Im not sure that's the case with most
Here's how I see it to date (pretty much their floor if they cant get better) + upside/ceiling....grade scale goes from crap to bad to below AVG to AVG to above AVG to good to great...and elite
Haden: above AVG to good starter with great to elite upside left
Taylor: below AVG to AVG starter with good to great uspide left
Ward: above AVG starter with good to great upside left (as a SS, not FS)
Lauvao: bad to below AVG starter with AVG to above AVG upside left (and that's ok for a RG)
Pinkston: below AVG to AVG starter with above AVG to good upside left
Little: below AVG starter with good upside left
for comparisons sake and just for fun:
McCoy: bad to below AVG starter with AVG to above AVG upside left (and that's not ok for a QB)
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
I'd say that's pretty successful. Especially considering we traded down last year and picked up more picks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,692
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,692 |
Quote:
Haden? Taylor? Ward? Lauvao? Pinkston? Little? All are at least average NFL starters.
(Little ended his rookie season with 709 receiving yards, pretty good for a rookie who hadn't played football for a year, I'm excited to see what he can do in the future.)
I would not call Joe Haden an average NFL CB. Sure, he gave up a big play today, however, there is a big reason we see Sheldon Brown's number called all the time. Haden is a shut down corner and plays go away from him. He is young and has given up a few big plays, sure. Ward is pretty good too. We noticed a huge difference when he went down. Next year will be huge for Joe Haden, calling it now!
I agree with the rest being average with the exception of Lauvao being below average. He simply stinks.
My sentiment is that our draft goals should be to fix the offense around McCoy. Bring in a stud RT, WR, and OG with the first 3 picks and see what happens with better protection and skill. I think we could do well by waiting a year for a QB.
Look at what Baltimore done once they drafted Flacco. I remember this biggest problem with the Ravens for years was Kyle Boller's horrible play. They built an excellent offensive line and brought in Ray Rice with him. If I recall, anytime we've tried to fix our QB situation we tended to jump the gun before the elements around him were set. This ruins QBs. For once, I'd to see us fix the line and bring in an elite WR before pulling the trigger on a new QB.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Read again please... Quote:
Haden? Taylor? Ward? Lauvao? Pinkston? Little? All are at least average NFL starters.
I disagree with you about Lauvao. I think as the season progressed he played much better.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,692
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,692 |
Quote:
Read again please...
Quote:
Haden? Taylor? Ward? Lauvao? Pinkston? Little? All are at least average NFL starters.
I disagree with you about Lauvao. I think as the season progressed he played much better.
I will say that today he looked pretty aweful.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,462 Likes: 12
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,462 Likes: 12 |
It's not successful,and it surely isn't pretty successful,It's average,not pretty average,just average.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
So getting six NFL starters in two drafts, along with some others who have the potential to start (Cameron, Skrine, Marecic) isn't successful?
What would be successful to you? A Pro Bowler every pick?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,462 Likes: 12
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,462 Likes: 12 |
Actually,only drafting 6 starters on a talent-starved rebuilding team is crappy,no it's pretty crappy.
I'm hoping the number isn't that low.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
Quote:
Actually,only drafting 6 starters on a talent-starved rebuilding team is crappy,no it's pretty crappy.
I'm hoping the number isn't that low.
In 2 drafts where they had maybe 15 picks?
I hate to tell you this, but 6 starters out of that bunch is pretty darn good.
Haden
Ward
Sheard
Taylor
Pinkston
Lavauo
Little
And if you include nickle, Skrine.
If we include guys who made the field and can sometimes contribute, you can add Cameron and Hagg.
The only guy that Heckert missed on was Hardesty, and that was a risky pick.
Long story short, there is no reason to believe Heckert cannot do this job.
you had a good run Hank.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 816
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 816 |
Quote:
Quote:
Draft order, top 10, since Seattle is still playing at this time, but they would be 11 or later, not top 10.
1 - Indy
2 - Stl
3 - Min
4 - CLEVELAND
5 - TB
6 - Washington
7 - Jax
8 - Miami
9 - Carolina
10 - Buffalo
These are locked in, all teams with 6 wins or less, seattle has 7 already so no bearing on top 10.
Flip flop Miami and Carolina.
They're both 6-10 and have equal SoS at .5039. The next tie-breaker is Division winning% where Carolina is .3333 and Miami is .5000.
Refer to my spreadsheet in the Atlanta and Draft Order thread .
The chair monster got a hold of me (i.e. napped) right as the dal/nyg game ended so just catching up cause I can't sleep now. 
Anyway... Mia and Car will go to coin-flip because they are in separate conferences. It's weird I know, but it ONLY goes to the division or conference tie-breakers IF the two teams are either in the same division or same conference, but not opposite conferences. This happened to us a few years ago with Tampa and we got Joe Thomas, thank whatever you believe in (iirc)  , when we did the coin flip with them at the combine. KC and Sea face the same issue for pick(s) 11 and 12.
Unless the rules have changed since then, which is entirely possible.
I was simply listing Miami first cause they had been that way on my spreadsheet longer.
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,526 Likes: 809
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,526 Likes: 809 |
I see lots of discussion about teams trading for Luck, and the discussion is all over the board with numerous teams being mentioned.
From my view, Luck is ours if Indy decides to trade and we decide to make the move. Bank it.
First, Indy has to decide to trade, and that's a big IF. They are either going to draft Luck, or trade the pick. No way they simply draft another player and allow St. Louis to gain the bounty of trading away the pick, so we don't even need to consider that as a possibility.
If Indy decides they are going to draft Luck, I hope they do the rest of the league a favor and simply say so. It serves no real purpose to field offers if in your heart you know you aren't trading for any amount. It's just wasting time, both yours and their's.
As I see it, we hold the best package for Indy.
Unless St. Louis or Minnesota become players for Luck, which at this point hasn't been considered a realistic possibility, a trade with us drops the Colts 3 positions in the draft. Better than any other team can offer.
We also hold 2 first round picks THIS YEAR....and that is big. While the thought of future picks sound good, there is nothing better than having immediate payout.
If this does get down to future picks, we can offer just as much as anybody else. Future picks are future picks. They are all the same. You can't bank the value until that future season plays out. It's like a stock option. You know when you will be able to cash it, you just don't know exactly what it will be worth.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,962 Likes: 352
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,962 Likes: 352 |
Considering that there are already "Luck" jerseys showing up in Indy in huge numbers (and they're not even officially on sale) ... there is as close to zero percent chance of them not taking him as is humanly possible. Indy would have a revolt if they do anything but draft Luck ..... unless they get some absolutely ridiculous offer like 10 1st round picks. As much as I like Luck, I don't think I would do that. In fact, I know I wouldn't.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,526 Likes: 809
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,526 Likes: 809 |
It just depends on what they do with Manning.
But in the end, I agree, Luck goes to Indy. It's a closed door hoping for otherwise.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 183
1st String
|
|
1st String
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 183 |
1) I think Luck goes to Indy. Future picks don't do them much good with Manning at the end of his career AND they know a) Manning may not be healthy for much longer and b) Luck may give them another "Manning" to plug right in.
2) I don't think we take RGIII. He is another spread QB on a small frame AND a failure to turn that into a pro-bowl caliber QB really tarnishes Holmgren's legacy as a QB guru (ie too much risk). Plus, I think someone trades ahead of us to get him anyways.
3) Which means that we should see either Blackmon OR Khalil left for us at 4 and i would take either of those guys in a heartbeat. In the end, not a bad situation to be in. I would only consider a trade back if Blackmon was gone and someone else in the top 10 offered us a decent package to move up for Khalil.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,962 Likes: 352
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,962 Likes: 352 |
Great ..... mid first round talent at #4. That would make sense. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 183
1st String
|
|
1st String
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 183 |
What mid first round talent. Most boards have both Khalil and Blackmon in the top 3. And with the new slotting, we can afford Khalil at 4.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,839 Likes: 11
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,839 Likes: 11 |
Quote:
What mid first round talent. Most boards have both Khalil and Blackmon in the top 3. And with the new slotting, we can afford Khalil at 4.
If not RG3.. then Claiborne is next on deck.. Kalil doesn't make sense @ 4.. no way we get him and put him at RT.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) 2012 Draft Continued Again
|
|
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)