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no logo I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment of our draft picks but I think playing time is a bad measure.. sure we have some low round draft picks that get playing time but is that because they are better than expected or does that really just speak to the total lack of NFL quality players in front of them? If they are still contributing in a couple years then I will be inclined to agree that they must have been pretty decent picks.
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Mitchell also did a nice job on KO coverage. He redirected the returner more than a few times for the early tackle.
Yes he did and to his credit, he has been bidding his time and doing whatever was asked of him.
If I am a GM. I'm going with WR's who can help me in other areas too if he is at the bottom of the depth chart or not a starter.
Cribbs, Norwood and Mitchell give you that, Moe doesn't.
Let's not forget that Mitchell has some pretty good wheels too, even though we have not put him on the track or use him in that fashion.
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I would see Norwood as ahead of Cribbs, actually.
Furthmore, I'd love to see us get Blackmon and then still grab at least one more WR in the 4th or earlier.... and then bring in several UDFA WR's, too.
IMO, there is no excuse for our WR's or our OLine to be weaknesses on this team in 2012.
I honestly don't see us drafting a WR at 4. I could be wrong .... but here's why I don;t see it happening.
The team just invested a 2 last year. They also have Norwood, who has shown promise, and still have former 2nd round pick Massaquoi on the roster.
I fully expect that they will go look for a veteran WR to help the QB next year. I think that Little and Norwood will be the other receivers.
I do then think that they will look in the 2nd-4th round for another fast WR. I think that they would love to find a guy like Mike Wallace, who could provide a breakaway and down field threat.
I don't think that they want to go WR high again. People say that it takes a couple of years for receivers to blossom .... and I think that they want someone who can contribute right away next year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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no logo I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment of our draft picks but I think playing time is a bad measure.. sure we have some low round draft picks that get playing time but is that because they are better than expected or does that really just speak to the total lack of NFL quality players in front of them? If they are still contributing in a couple years then I will be inclined to agree that they must have been pretty decent picks.
other than Hagg (a 7th rounder), I didn't use playing time as a measure in my assessment (well, if they didn't have any playing time, then I factored that in)
i agree that it's all TBD as we need to see these guys hold onto spots and keep contributing.
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He has in my mind,
Ahh, theres the problem right there.... 
Statically, you aren't correct, but if you feel he looks better out there than MoMass, I get what you are saying.
But I do believe the drop off for MoMass is at least marginally attributable to the concussions he received this year.. Just a FWIW kinda thing I guess
#GMSTRONG
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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He has in my mind,
Ahh, theres the problem right there....
Statically, you aren't correct, but if you feel he looks better out there than MoMass, I get what you are saying.
But I do believe the drop off for MoMass is at least marginally attributable to the concussions he received this year.. Just a FWIW kinda thing I guess
The reasons that MoMass fell off this year is because he wasn't the #1, #2, or #3 option on offense.
At least we made progress there.
you had a good run Hank.
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He has in my mind,
Ahh, theres the problem right there....
Statically, you aren't correct, but if you feel he looks better out there than MoMass, I get what you are saying.
But I do believe the drop off for MoMass is at least marginally attributable to the concussions he received this year.. Just a FWIW kinda thing I guess
The reasons that MoMass fell off this year is because he wasn't the #1, #2, or #3 option on offense.
At least we made progress there.
He wasn't? How do you know that?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Could be, but Heckert did say that he'd like to get a "big, fast guy with good hands".... and that is kinda the description of a first round WR.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Could be any number of things he'd "like" to get too.  I don't trust a whole lot of anything i hear this time of year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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He has in my mind,
Ahh, theres the problem right there....
Statically, you aren't correct, but if you feel he looks better out there than MoMass, I get what you are saying.
But I do believe the drop off for MoMass is at least marginally attributable to the concussions he received this year.. Just a FWIW kinda thing I guess
The reasons that MoMass fell off this year is because he wasn't the #1, #2, or #3 option on offense.
At least we made progress there.
He wasn't? How do you know that?
Because he wasn't being targeted nearly as much as the TE/Little/Cribbs?
Unless you are saying that McCoy was reading the options wrong or that MoMass couldn't run himself open.
you had a good run Hank.
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I honestly don't see us drafting a WR at 4. I could be wrong .... but here's why I don;t see it happening.
The team just invested a 2 last year. They also have Norwood, who has shown promise, and still have former 2nd round pick Massaquoi on the roster.
H&H have pretty much cemented the fact that they know we need offensive playmakers.. that's 1 of 3 things... a QB, a WR, a RB.. We will know by draft day what's going to happen, if we have picked up Flynn (or some other FA, not sure who) or if they have secretly committed another year to Colt, we will take Blackmon if available.. if we have picked up a WR, we will probably be looking at a QB... and as I've said before, Richardson at 4 is the one pick I would be really disappointed with.... the only other option at #4 is defense and given what we lived through this year, if they go defense at #4 (even if it's the best long term pick) people will mutiny... (unless by some miracle we get a QB and a WR in FA but I don't see that happening)
yebat' Putin
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H&H have pretty much cemented the fact that they know we need offensive playmakers.. that's 1 of 3 things... a QB, a WR, a RB..
...and OL. Holmgren said that he feels we needs improvement in "every offensive position group". To me, that means he's looking at RT, too (my interpretation).
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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They also said that they weren't looking for a QB in free agency .... for whatever that's worth. Tis the season to tell lies and spread misinformation ... fa la la la la, la la la la ........
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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They also said that they weren't looking for a QB in free agency
Mike Holmgren specifically said that they were looking for a QB in free agency or the draft.
you had a good run Hank.
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H&H have pretty much cemented the fact that they know we need offensive playmakers.. that's 1 of 3 things... a QB, a WR, a RB..
Yes they did. Glad they're not trying to trick anyone because I don't think anyone would believe otherwise. glad we got our playmaking TE and FB in the 4th last year.
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![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif)
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If you get a playmaker in the 4th its a bonus... nobody expects to get a playmaker there... you are looking for contributors and potential playmakers by then... first and second you are looking for playmakers.
yebat' Putin
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yes, I know... i was just poking fun at last year's "huh?" round with the other positions that touch the ball. 
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Could be, but Heckert did say that he'd like to get a "big, fast guy with good hands".... and that is kinda the description of a first round WR.
I agree.
If we don't draft a WR with the 4th selection ... Well it will be the case that Blackmon has already been drafted.
We could still draft another later on, but no other WR should go that high in this years player pool.
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What if it is determined that Blackmon is the ninth best player in the draft? Should we still take him fourth overall? I say no.
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What if it is determined that Blackmon is the ninth best player in the draft? Should we still take him fourth overall? I say no.
If you think he's the best WR and is truly a game changing WR... then yes, you still take him.
Plus, without knowing who is ahead of him in that 9 and still on the board.. what if it's a couple left tackles, a nose tackle and a center? Taking BPA is a very good philosophy but I always modify it based on need.. I'm not going to pass on a potential game changing WR because he rates out .84 points behind some players in positions that aren't as important... on a relatively arbitrary scale.
Look, most guys on this board pick as many or more "winners" in the draft as the experts and they do it because they see guys who just look like they know how to play football as opposed to having a formal rating scale... and Blackmon is one of those players, I don't care what his rating is..
yebat' Putin
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What if it is determined that Blackmon is the ninth best player in the draft? Should we still take him fourth overall? I say no.
No!
But I'm waiting to hear who the 8 prospects above him are and I'll give you 2 ... So who would be your other 6 BPA?
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Or let me put it another way.. in 2004 we traded up to take Winslow, who was a top 5 pick, then we took Luke McCown later and that was supposed to be part of our nucleus.. what if we had reached just a little and taken... oh I don't know... Ben Roethlisberger and a later round TE... which would you rather have?
yebat' Putin
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guys I could see some teams rating above Blackmon
Luck
Kalil
Claiborne
RGIII - because of position
Richardson - despite position and I woudn't but can see it
That's it. I guess maybe Reiff. I don't see anyone rating Kuechly or Floyd/Jeffrey or Still or Kirkpatrick that high.
#gmstrong
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What if it is determined that Blackmon is the ninth best player in the draft? Should we still take him fourth overall? I say no.
Determined by whom??
It doesn't matter even the slightest bit how Mel Kiper, Mike Mayock, Great Blue North or any other internet wanna-be scout ranks him.
It only matters how our front office rates him... and if we rank him as the 9th best player, it's a VERY safe bet that we will NOT take him at #4.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
guys I could see some teams rating above Blackmon
Luck
Kalil
Claiborne
RGIII - because of position
Richardson - despite position and I woudn't but can see it
That's it. I guess maybe Reiff. I don't see anyone rating Kuechly or Floyd/Jeffrey or Still or Kirkpatrick that high.
And I don't see us drafting an OT or a RB top 5.. so Blackmon just became the pick. 
yebat' Putin
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i've talked to a few people and they have me questioning that about the RT at #4. while, I would take Blackmon there, no doubt. if the top3 goes:
Luck
Blackmon
Claiborne
then, I don't mind Kalil. he's definitely the best player on the board, and we could still get Sanu in the 2nd round (likely).
Kalil/Lamar Miller/Sanu
vs.
Blackmon/Lamar Miller/Z.Sanders or Adcock
-------------------------------
yes, I would entertain trade offers as well, but the next level of prospects are pretty underwhelming for top10 guys, so why not just take the elite guy and let the rest sort itself out?
#gmstrong
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He has in my mind,
Ahh, theres the problem right there....
Statically, you aren't correct, but if you feel he looks better out there than MoMass, I get what zou are saying.
But I do believe the drop off for MoMass is at least marginally attributable to the concussions he received this year.. Just a FWIW kinda thing I guess
The reasons that MoMass fell off this year is because he wasn't the #1, #2, or #3 option on offense.
At least we made progress there.
He wasn't? How do you know that?
Because he wasn't being targeted nearly as much as the TE/Little/Cribbs?
Unless you are saying that McCoy was reading the options wrong or that MoMass couldn't run himself open.
Or he wasn't open when he was supposed to be because of good coverage..
We can't really tell anyway.
Point is, MoMass caught 31 balls for over 300 yards.. Mitcheall caught 3 balls for 31 yards...
If you just look at stats, Mitchell was an afterthought...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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What if it is determined that Blackmon is the ninth best player in the draft? Should we still take him fourth overall? I say no.
Determined by whom??
It doesn't matter even the slightest bit how Mel Kiper, Mike Mayock, Great Blue North or any other internet wanna-be scout ranks him.
It only matters how our front office rates him... and if we rank him as the 9th best player, it's a VERY safe bet that we will NOT take him at #4.
And I don't think even they have him rated the 9th best prospect, so I guess I should have used the sarcasm smiley
If Blackmon is on the board at 4.
I wouldn't blink an eye before I hand my card to the table.
We need offensive play makers.
The whole world see's that much.
Will I be happy with another corner or other need. Yes, but only if Blackmon is gone.
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Determined by our front office.
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They also said that they weren't looking for a QB in free agency
Mike Holmgren specifically said that they were looking for a QB in free agency or the draft.
THis is the part I heard firsthand, and why I posted what I did:
Mike Holmgren and Tom Heckert season-ending press conference transcript | cleveland.com
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/01/mike_holmgren_and_tom_heckert_1.html
(On signing a veteran quarterback in free agency)- "That's probably not the way we are going to go but you never know. It's still early and we have two months before that happens. We'll look at everybody. There are a few guys that have played in the league that have started who will be free agents. We are looking at them and we'll have to wait and see how that goes."
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Then that's all that matters. If they feel that there are 8 better players and all of them are on the board (which at least 4 should be)... then they should either be taking one of them or questioning their own evaluation skills.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I agree. And I don't think it's too far fetched to think that Blackmon ends up 9th on Heckert's board. Luck, RGIII, Richardson, Kalil, Caliborne, and DeCastro. That's six guys right there that can easily be ranked ahead of Blackmon.
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Perhaps... it all depends upon the criteria used to rank them.
Some of those players may be ranked as "better" players, but if "Need" comes into the equation, then things get shuffled quite a bit.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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No_ logo,
After looking at this response and the one you made about the draft picks, you still did not list any FA that was signed that filled our most pressing needs. Heckert was around at the end of last year so even with a shortened FA period, he COULD have made some moves but did not. So we go through the season with youth, yes, and glaring holes in our so-called west coast offense that lacks WRs and a right side of the offensive line...Hey didn't he see that need at the end of last year???
At the point we are at as a franchise, Heckert has to absolutely nail this draft and FA signings. No excuses!!! With 2 picks in the first round, Heckert has to draft studs that are ready to contribute day 1 of the opener, PERIOD!! The rest of the draft has to have over a 60% success rate. The Browns cannot afford another draft where the players are out of the league in 3 years, let alone the team.
Look at last years draft, Sheard, Little were rookies that made good strides. I would would have put Taylor in that group but I want to see what he does next year due to him kinda tailing off at the end of the year( but again, he was a rookie). Cameron/Merecic = BUST!!.. Skrine was a good value pick and Pinkston is a question mark. What ever we get from Hagg is a bonus. That draft look like a 50 percent draft at best and Heckert has to do better than that!! BTW - we need 1 or 2 good FA pickups minimum!
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The word busts should never be used in the same sentence as a fourth or fifth around pic. Especially when one of those picks is Jordan Cameron, a player who when we took him needed a ton of work. Quote:
you still did not list any FA that was signed that filled our most pressing needs.
Fujita was signed when we were very short at the linebacker position. Dimitri Patterson was signed and played pretty well as a nickel corner. We needed a safety and signed Usama Young (he was horrible but it was an attempt to get better). Tony Pashos was signed to play right tackle when we had no one. Ben Watson was signed and has been a very successful player for us.
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Heckert has to absolutely nail this draft and FA signings.
His job is to nail every draft and free agent signing.
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The rest of the draft has to have over a 60% success rate.
It's always good to place unrealistic expectations on people and then complain when they don't reach them.
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cfrs15, Yes you can label a 4th and 5th rounders busts when they are not make any or little contribution to your team or is out of the league already. Quote:
Fujita was signed when we were very short at the linebacker position. Dimitri Patterson was signed and played pretty well as a nickel corner. We needed a safety and signed Usama Young (he was horrible but it was an attempt to get better). Tony Pashos was signed to play right tackle when we had no one. Ben Watson was signed and has been a very successful player for us.
Fujita has been average at best and really more of a vocal leader vs producer on the field. The only other person on that list that has really been productive is Watson. Young and Pashos just are not that good. There was a reason Young was not playing in philly and we found out why this year. Patterson was decent but if that is one of your better pick ups, then we are truly in trouble.
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It's always good to place unrealistic expectations on people and then complain when they don't reach them.
Please, again, this draft is that important!! He has to get somewhere around that mark to put is on a upward trajectory as far as talent. Our draft and FA moves have to be A grade moves, Bs and Cs will not get us moving forward.
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You did not ask if the players signed were any good. You asked what free agents were signed to fill "our most pressing needs". Quote:
Yes you can label a 4th and 5th rounders busts when they are not make any or little contribution to your team or is out of the league already.
Not in their first year. As I said before, we knew going into the season that Cameron was very raw and needed time. Marecic played in almost every game.
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lol, after the presser, Holmgren said "off the record, would you guys be mad if we used our 4th pick on a defensive player? You guys talk about it."
I can just read tomorrow's headlines:
"Holmgren considering defense with first pick in draft..."
"Browns taking possible defensive player..."
"Holmgren continues to ignore offense, mentions taking defensive player with first pick in upcoming draft."
"Akron Joe's predictions of a 4-12 record for next season reaches one thousand."
Yeah, got you ready for the Bum Shurmur calling his own plays again. how'd that work out this year? "if we can't find the right guy do it again yourself". did you miss that?
That is really reassuring. I saw the schedule. 4-12 unless we catch lightning in a bottle. did you also catch mention about hardesty and then you need more than one back? Hillis is GONE. tap Dancing hardesty returns as #1. reassuring.
starts the year with maybe Shurmy calls the plays again and Moterrio mentioned as you need more than one back, Too bacd Hero sandwich went spolled in a year. our brilliant Front Office. also reassuring Turd Shurmur is safe no matter what stool sample he drops next season.
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I kind of bashed someone for saying we should get Kalil w/ our 4th pick.. I want to say I apologize and now think that if Blackmon is not there, then go for it!! Fix that right side of the o-line cuz I think we would really benefit from it.
I really want Griffin.. but I think he will not be there @ 4... and Blackmon probably won't either. I'm not 100% sold on Claiborne. Need to see some more highlights of him.
You get a stud Ot and your RG improves. your QB improves, your receivers have more time to get open. the running game is improved. First downs get converted.
I will put in a plug for the best punter in the country from Georgia, Butler, the Bears k son.
Boomers with long hang time. gives the defense and extra 15-20 yards in every exchange of punts. over an entire game maybe an extra 140 yards in field position.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren & Heckert Presser
01/05/2012 at 11:00
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