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I'm sure he wasn't supposed to block air in front of him..and that's what he did a handful of times in every game I reviewd early in the season..and yes I was very vocal about it in the post game threads...he cut it down to a minimum the 2nd half of the season and was more active overall....he actually looked like he knew what he was supposed to do...early on he seemed to just freeze when he didn't have a body to push around in front of him....he was a big reason we looked lost against even the most basic form of stunts and blitzes...he really looked slow processing what was going on....far from being able to help anyone around him....as I said I saw a liability considering his responsibilities
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Quote:
Let's not get carried away. He's good. He's not great.
OK,, I can live with that... But the folks that want to make him sound bad or awful or not good enough.. they are wrong...
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3 new parts early on and it showed with really poor communication. Everyone improved as the season went on. The line went from 99 bad to pretty damn good by the end of the year but they should be much better next year if we can get a pretty good RT in here.
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Agreed.
Although I wouldn't mind if Mack lived in the weight room in the offseason and focused on squats and deadlifts. No one is going to accuse that guy of having a bubble butt. He could stand to have additional lower body strength.
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"Abou the scheme...I was confused what kind of scheme we're running but I saw Mack and sometimes the Gs block space an awful lot when passing..."
In pass pro,when guys are blocking air it's usually a result of incorrect protections being called.That's a direct correlation to trying to learn the new WCO on the fly.
"but I clearly saw a difference to the Mangini approach"
You can bet your butt you did.I disliked Mangini asdid you,but,the run game was classic,and the original NCO.Power right followed by trap and counter left,or vice versa.But without apassing game,none of that matters in the NFL.
Last edited by BCbrownie; 01/12/12 10:34 PM.
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I brought this into this thread because it belongs here. Quote:
I listened on the web to the latest GM interview and he danced around Hillis. Point blank asked he danced again how they were interested in other free agents on the team as well.
This must be your first off-season as a fan of the NFL. What do you expect? Unless a player is a franchise QB or something similar GM's won't comment on the status of their contract. So you expect Heckert to come out and say, "We're keeping him, there is no doubt about it." That creates an expectation that he will be coming back. What if Hillis is lying and is done with Cleveland? Then Heckert looks like the bad guy. Also, I listened to the same interview and not only was Heckert not asked "point blank" about Hillis, but he said, "We'll see what happens with Peyton." And said, "We want all our good playesr back."
Quote:
In the same interview the truly mediocre Hardesty was spoken of in "glowing" terms. Glad to see delusion is still rife in berea.
Glowing terms? He said something along these lines, "We knew he wouldn't be at full strength this year because of injury."
Here is the link to the interview if you'd like to clean out your ears and listen again.
You make up things to keep your tired agenda going. It's old.
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Quote:
I brought this into this thread because it belongs here.
Quote:
I listened on the web to the latest GM interview and he danced around Hillis. Point blank asked he danced again how they were interested in other free agents on the team as well.
This must be your first off-season as a fan of the NFL. What do you expect? Unless a player is a franchise QB or something similar GM's won't comment on the status of their contract. So you expect Heckert to come out and say, "We're keeping him, there is no doubt about it." That creates an expectation that he will be coming back. What if Hillis is lying and is done with Cleveland? Then Heckert looks like the bad guy. Also, I listened to the same interview and not only was Heckert not asked "point blank" about Hillis, but he said, "We'll see what happens with Peyton." And said, "We want all our good playesr back."
Quote:
In the same interview the truly mediocre Hardesty was spoken of in "glowing" terms. Glad to see delusion is still rife in berea.
Glowing terms? He said something along these lines, "We knew he wouldn't be at full strength this year because of injury."
Here is the link to the interview if you'd like to clean out your ears and listen again.
You make up things to keep your tired agenda going. It's old.
we agree we heard different things. I stand by he danced around the Hillis issue "we would not be adverse to having Hillis back".
sounds like we are not against having Hillis back and we are looking at other opportunities..should he somehow fall back into our laps....
Hillis is not coming back. sometimes when you hear dancing you hear enough, one would have to be the first season of ever being a fan to expect heckert to EXPLICITLY state 100% Hillis is gone. wanna bet whose ears are more clear on this?
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Quote:
sounds like we are not against having Hillis back and we are looking at other opportunities
you are correct. that is exactly right. but, wouldn't our FO be dumb for not looking at this situation this way?
we are likely trying to re-sign Hillis to the same extension that we offered back in July. at the same time, we'll be kicking the tires on guys like Michael Bush and Tim Hightower to see how much they will cost. And, if we don't like any of those options (or even if we do), then we'll see what kind of RB we can get in the draft (perhaps Lamar Miller or Chris Polk in the first couple of rounds)
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we agree we heard different things.
No. You heard what you wanted.
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Quote:
Quote:
we agree we heard different things.
No. You heard what you wanted.
as did you.  
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Quote:
Quote:
sounds like we are not against having Hillis back and we are looking at other opportunities
you are correct. that is exactly right. but, wouldn't our FO be dumb for not looking at this situation this way?
we are likely trying to re-sign Hillis to the same extension that we offered back in July. at the same time, we'll be kicking the tires on guys like Michael Bush and Tim Hightower to see how much they will cost. And, if we don't like any of those options (or even if we do), then we'll see what kind of RB we can get in the draft (perhaps Lamar Miller or Chris Polk in the first couple of rounds)
Hillis will not be back. period. we would rather be last in line in free agency for a lesser back than resign the solid back we have. Face it, if you are a decent RB we would have to overpay to attract you since this broke down coach and last place team is the last place you would want to go. it would be about money only, which is the kind of broke down free agents we get. Also how you treat your own is a calling card to other players.
you think this revolving door team will attract anyone? Tippy toe hardesty, and wasting a top pick on a RB to fill a hole we created are par for the course for this organization.
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What makes you think Hillis is going to play a full season Joe? This past season he didn't come on until the very end.
I love Peyton Hillis, but my fear is the injuries that will come with him.
Do we really want to pay top dollar to a guy that won't be seen on the field? He seems to have hamstring issues. Last year it was an issue, this year it was an issue, I think it was an issue on the Broncos too.
I'd like to get Peyton Hillis back, but at what cost? He's an injury liability no matter what way you see it, so it all depends on what he's asking
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Quote:
What makes you think Hillis is going to play a full season Joe?
Nothing.. most backs don't... not even the ones that get top dollar.
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This past season he didn't come on until the very end.
Our whole offense looked like a train wreck this season. Hillis ran hard when he was on the field.
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Do we really want to pay top dollar to a guy that won't be seen on the field?
We could pay top dollar for Forte or Gore or.. oh wait, they all missed time due to injuries too... that's why you need two backs and Hardesty is the real injury problem in the backfield.
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I'd like to get Peyton Hillis back, but at what cost?
Can't really say.. he's not a top back in the league but he is in the next tier.. he's not as explosive as a Forte or Ray Rice but he's better than an Ahmad Bradshaw or a Brandon Jacobs.. Back in 2008 Turner got 6 years and $35 million from the Falcons... and I think Hillis is as good as Turner, maybe even a better receiver... so adjust that for inflation. 
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I saw your post about this in the other forum. It's a good point. Only the best RBs play every game. I guess I just have a perception that many RBs can. I always talk about how I've grown up watching Curtis Martin (as I watch the Jets locally), he generally played every game most seasons.
May be it's just a new NFL.
So yeah, I'm sold I guess. You've changed my mind DC
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and he didn't even have to mention Adrian Peterson's ACL injury 
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You do realize Hillis quit on the team during the season because he didn't get paid?
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What about that guy we picked up last year that didn't get to play due to injury... Brandon Jackson..
You have to wonder, what if he'd not gone down.
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he's a 3rd down back. that's important (he's great at blitz pickup and has nice hands out of the backfield), but he's not going to be a lead back for anybody.
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Quote:
You do realize Hillis quit on the team during the season because he didn't get paid?
Really? I don't recall anything other than blogger speculation to support that.
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He would be used in the Obi role...that's all....Jackson isn't a good runner....he would be out of a job if he wasn't an outstanding pass catcher and blocker which makes him a good 3rd down RB...he's useless to establish a running game though
Reality people forget about Hillis is that he had ONE good season and that's it....if he wants to get paid like a top 5 RB because of that good season? See ya...he had a 3.6yds AVG this last season....and 2011 is closer to 2012 than 2010
I like Hillis a lot, esp because he's a good receiver too and can play all 3 downs when healthy but he's WAY overrated around here...and my guess is he and his agent overrate his value too....for top 5 RB money I'd let someone else find out if he ever can have another healthy and productive season like 2010....we can sign Tolbert for much cheaper and he's as good and been more durable, he's also a good GL and 3rd down RB....I'd have no problem going into TC with Tolbert, Hardesty, Obi and Jackson and some late round/UDFA RBs fighting for 3 or max 4 spots
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Quote:
for top 5 RB money I'd let someone else find out
I don't know of anybody on here advocating that he is worth top 5 money.
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we can sign Tolbert for much cheaper and he's as good and been more durable, he's also a good GL and 3rd down RB....
Even with the games missed, Hillis still averages 40 more carries a year than Tolbert, I'd hope he's more durable. And he is good on the goal line, primarily because he's a FB, not a RB.. and Tolbert had one decent year in 2010, then took a step backwards this year in terms of production..
Hillis is worth more than Tolbert.. considerably more.
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Having not spent any time looking at Jacksons past,, I wouldn't know and won't argue the point with you.
Obi wasn't bad for what it was he was supposed to do..,
I don't advocate paying Hillis top 5 RB money... Different reason than you I think.. for me, it's that he can't stay healthy.. I realize, it's not his fault.. nobody chooses to get injured.. and when you play like Hillis (meaning all out) that kinda stuff is bound to happen.
And yeah, he's really only had 1 good year. But watch him run, I think if he stays healthier, he'll have more.
Like I said, I'd love for us to retain Hillis, but if what he's looking for is AP type money... I gotta say move on.
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Quote:
Quote:
You do realize Hillis quit on the team during the season because he didn't get paid?
Really? I don't recall anything other than blogger speculation to support that.
I agree 100%. I don't think that Hillis quit at all. When he came back from injury, he ran as hard and with as much violence as he did last year.
I do think that something(s) was said between the front office and the player and his agent(s) that resulted in bad feelings between them. Given that it has been reported by most of the Browns beat writers that they do not expect Hillis back, it was probably something rather substantial, and I would be surprised if he returns next year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
for top 5 RB money I'd let someone else find out
I don't know of anybody on here advocating that he is worth top 5 money.
I think I made it clear in my post that Hillis and his agent think he's worth that...
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Hillis is worth more than Tolbert.. considerably more.
...and that's the part where I think posters overvalue Hillis...esp. comparing him to other RBs around the league...oh and Hillis was a FB/HB tweener himself before so save me the semantics on this please...he has similar strengths and weaknesses as Tolbert
and Tolbert's production didn't "drop off" it just changed because the Chargers were behind a lot, so he got less carries but more receptions and receiving yds...from scrimmage his 2010 yds were 951, in 2011 = 923yds
If anything Hillis was the one who saw his production "drop off" considerably, otoh Tolbert was/is more consistent....he had a 4yd AVG in 2010 AND 2011...Hillis went from 4.4 to 3.6...Tolbert had 19 rushing TDs in those 2 years with 303 carries, Hillis 14 with 431 carries
Stats aside...having watched a lot of Tolbert (he's on my FF keeper +rec points dynasty team) and of course Hillis...I see 2 VERY similar RB/FB tweeners....both are at their best near the GL and on 3rd downs, hard to bring down but both won't run away from anyone...both are FAs but I'm sure the one with more mileage and the bigger head because of media hype will ask for a much bigger contract than the other who actually knows his role
It's really not hard to figure out what the smart money move is here...if Tolbert only demands 50-75% of Hillis, I'd go after him
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Quote:
Quote:
You do realize Hillis quit on the team during the season because he didn't get paid?
Really? I don't recall anything other than blogger speculation to support that.
I agree with this. I think Hillis gave his all every week that he could. Injuries got him this year and not playing because of his strep throat was a PR nightmare.
I didn't want him anywhere near the team if he had strep throat anyway......... What's the point of bringing in a guy who's sick, and can get the rest of the freakin team sick? How does that help us?
But, paying Hillis like a top 5 RB is not right. He isn't a top 5 RB and he's only had one good season. I'd like him on the team, but not with a deal Adrian Peterson or Stephen Jackson.
To me about 4 million a year sounds about right. May be 5.
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He ended the season playing hard, but in the middle he quit. Quote:
The comment, and a slew of similarly sarcastic jeers from other Cleveland players, drew laughs from aisle to aisle. However, as Hillis counted his bag of petty cash and the Browns took off for San Francisco, where two days later they would lose to the 49ers to drop to 3-4, strains of distrust and dysfunction were swirling through the pressurized air.
By Wednesday, a group of about eight Browns veterans had summoned Hillis into a meeting room for an intervention-style, air-clearing session designed to restore his focus. After a breakout season in 2010 that vaulted him to national prominence, including a spot on the “Madden NFL ’12” cover, the 25-year-old back’s consuming desire for a new contract has become a locker room distraction that numerous teammates regard as an impediment to cohesion and collective success.
“I’ve never seen anything like it,” says one Browns veteran. “Last year, Peyton was such a positive, inspirational force on our team – but now he’s like a different guy. It’s like he’s in a funk that he can’t get out of, and it’s killing us, because we really need him. And we’ve told him that. But we’re at the point where we just don’t know what to do.”
During an interview session with reporters in the locker room of the Browns’ training facility Thursday, Hillis conceded that his dissatisfaction with his contract and the accompanying controversies – including his decision to miss a late-September game against the Miami Dolphins while suffering from strep throat – have made it difficult to get his “mind right.”
Quote:
Most conspicuously, Hillis sat out the Sept. 25 victory over the Dolphins after a week-long bout with strep throat, reporting to Cleveland Stadium hours before the game, informing team officials he felt too sick to play and heading home prior to the arrival of most of his teammates. He later said he decided not to play on the advice of his agent, Kennard McGuire, adding to the suspicions of teammates, Browns officials and fans that his contract situation affected his availability.
More recently, Hillis annoyed teammates after joining third-string quarterback Thaddeus Lewis(notes) in a conspicuous competition to throw footballs off the crossbar of the Candlestick Park goalposts about 90 minutes before Sunday’s 20-10 defeat to the Niners. Hillis, who had aggravated the hamstring strain in a practice a few days earlier, supposedly was a game-time decision; the spectacle occurred while other Browns players were stretching and engaging in warm-ups; it was captured by CBS TV cameras and discussed on the broadcast.
“It was a bad look,” one veteran said, “and it did not sit well with any of us.”
Quote:
On the other hand, as one veteran player said, “The organization is not going to reward a guy they think is moping or acting out or going about it the wrong way, just out of principle, and because of the message it sends to younger guys. And I totally understand that.”
Link
Sure sounds like he quit.
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He ended the season playing hard, but in the middle he quit.
You my friend are incorrect.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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What makes you think Hillis is going to play a full season Joe? This past season he didn't come on until the very end.
I love Peyton Hillis, but my fear is the injuries that will come with him.
Do we really want to pay top dollar to a guy that won't be seen on the field? He seems to have hamstring issues. Last year it was an issue, this year it was an issue, I think it was an issue on the Broncos too.
I'd like to get Peyton Hillis back, but at what cost? He's an injury liability no matter what way you see it, so it all depends on what he's asking
crappy blocking and the dumping of his FB I would say had a lot to do with him being hit hard and often. many times BEFORE he was even to the LOS. Hillis may of may not get injured but he is sure a far safer bet than hardesty. Not to mention his blocking his great hands as well. heckert talking up hardesty immediately after questioned about Hillis says he is GONE. Great way to build. like the short sighted choice to dump our FB. Gee that did not affect the running game at all.
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Quote:
Quote:
You do realize Hillis quit on the team during the season because he didn't get paid?
Really? I don't recall anything other than blogger speculation to support that.
Amen, but it does support his views on Hillis. the hero sandwich suddenly gone stale. yeah right. All I remember is Hillis with a gritted look with his helmet under his arms while the "prolific, talented , hands of stone Hardesty was on the field BEFORE there were any problems. Just an observation but my guess Hillis was being "put in his place" early on and did not react well considering how he busted his tail the year before.
Just another perk of rookie never were HC's..the petty games often played to show who is boss. a belicik specialty he has outgrown, a mangini after practice grinder.
I grant you Hillis REACTED poorly yet like a ref in a fight we only saw Hillis's REACTION and what spurred him . I am speculating as well. yet since the tool HC did it with Cribbs after his "I'm tired of losing" tirade my guess is Shurmy fired the initial salvo since people are consistant and hillis busted his tail the year before. There is always a PATTERN.
Last edited by akronjoe; 01/18/12 10:06 AM.
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Prove it. I posted proof that he did quit.
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Quote:
Prove it. I posted proof that he did quit.
Not to pile on, but did you watch any of the games in which Hillis played and was healthy? Cause if you did, you'd see there is NO quit in the kid.. NONE.
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I won't say that Ham Sandwich quit.
However ... he (and his agents) certainly gave ammo to those who choose to believe it.
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Quote:
I won't say that Ham Sandwich quit.
However ... he (and his agents) certainly gave ammo to those who choose to believe it.
LOL they sure did, But I was referring to his play on the field, and I didn't see any quit in him.
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So the games he didn't play because he quit don't count?
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Quote:
So the games he didn't play because he quit don't count?
which games didn't he play because he quit?
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not if he had legitimate injuries.
if you recall, right after this Silver article came out, Hillis tried to rush back to practice and re-injured himself.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Quote:
Quote:
So the games he didn't play because he quit don't count?
which games didn't he play because he quit?
I don't know, but it has been said that he was milking the strep throat and the first hamstring injury.
So if he didn't quit why did he have an intervention type meeting some of his most respected teammates? At the very least he wasn't trying his hardest at certain points in the season.
Also, let me be clear. I would like to have Hillis back at the right price, but I also won't be mad if we don't even make him an offer after he acted the way he did this season.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,176 Likes: 136
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,176 Likes: 136 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So the games he didn't play because he quit don't count?
which games didn't he play because he quit?
I don't know, but it has been said that he was milking the strep throat and the first hamstring injury.
So if he didn't quit why did he have an intervention type meeting some of his most respected teammates? At the very least he wasn't trying his hardest at certain points in the season.
Also, let me be clear. I would like to have Hillis back at the right price, but I also won't be mad if we don't even make him an offer after he acted the way he did this season.
Couple of things here,, Strep throat sucks.. wears you right down.
And a hammy will knock you out of a game and there really isn't anything you can do about it., it takes time and it just has to heal up on its own from my understanding.. also, if you try to come back too soon from a hammy, it only aggravates it more..
we've had this discussion about hamstring injuries,, I may have been the one that asked this question (someone sure did). Can they tell if a hammy is real or faked? the answer came back that it can be determined via xray or scan or something. again, don't remember.
As for an intervention with his teammates, I don't think that had anything to do with his physical ailments, but it could have had something to do with his comments and those of his agent.
I know there have been media reports of such an intervention, and maybe it did indeed take place. But I don't know that it's anything more than media having some fun with the fans.. you know, they've been known to stretch the truth around here... Like maybe
"Hey, I spoke with Payton about his comments,, everything is cool.".
that gets blown up into a full fledged intervention..
I do not know if that's what happened.. just saying..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
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“A few guys tried to talk to him, to make him understand the best way to go about things is to put your head down and do the best you possibly can,” said All-Pro tackle Joe Thomas, the team’s best and highest-paid player. “Because if the Browns aren’t going to pay you, some team will break the bank – and either way you need to play hard.”
Link
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
date on that link is November 4, 2011. it prompted Hillis to try to return to practice to save face and we ended up with this on November 5, 2011 because he WAS injured still: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/718955...tring-ruled-out
#gmstrong
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren & Heckert Presser
01/05/2012 at 11:00
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