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felt the need to point out how much more righteous they are
No, just pointing out unnecessary comments that don't add anything to the conversation.
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EM was hired to be a football coach, so I can somewhat excuse his drafting.
Of course you can.
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Your owner screwed this up
Wouldn't that also make him your owner? We are both fans of the Browns, right?
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EM was hired to be a football coach, so I can somewhat excuse his drafting.
His drafting is precisely why he had no talent on the team.
Coming into his first year, he was without a third (used for Martin Rucker) and a fifth (used for Paul Hubbard) and a seventh (Travis Daniels).
He started with the #5 pick, and parlayed it into Alex Mack, David Veikune, Coye Francies, James Davis, Kenyon Coleman, Abe Elam and Brett Ratliff.
When all was said and done, he gave away the #5 for peanuts, and by the time had was done swapping firsts for sixths, we were looking at 4 picks in the first two rounds. That draft was a complete disaster, and a large part of why Mangini lacked talent, and we still do today.
It makes no sense to say that Mangini was burdened with no talent because of Savage, and then excuse his contributions to the problem. That would be akin to letting Heckert and Holmgren off the hook because Mangini left them with garbage. Not that there isn't some truth to that, but once you take over, it's your team from that point forward. What you do from that point, not what the last guy did in the past, will dictate how you perform.
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I had no idea one little comment that was more of a local talk radio and local fan comment about Walrus' appearance would be offensive on a football message board. Again, my apologies to those that were offended--or felt the need to point out how much more righteous they are
I'm not offended, nor do I think I'm more righteous than you. I was just pointing out that making fun of someone for being fat is kind of poor form. I'm not going to cry if it happens, but if you're looking to come in and make some solid football arguments and discussions, using lowest common denominator barbs about someone isn't going to come across all that well. Neither is questioning someone's manhood when they point out the juvenile nature of the comments.
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Your owner screwed this up and put us behind the 8 ball again by hiring his coach and whatever Kokinis was before he hired Walrus to be Gawd.
I'm not a fan of Lerner, but those moves were made precisely due to the actions you 'excuse' Mangini for.
The guy completely whiffed an entire draft, and the team started out 1-11. He also handpicked his buddy to be a puppet GM. Something had to be done with that trainwreck.
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BTW, Cribbs was the best receiver the team had last season---just an FYI.
That's less of an endorsement for Cribbs at the WR position and more of a sad fact regarding the state of our WR's.
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When the Browns are dealing with blackouts, then one can argue of the things you speak.
No blackouts at my house!
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Oh yea , DJ. has become the board appointed apologist for Heckert and Co. 
For the record: I'll defend Heckert as long as he keeps drafting 2 above AVG starters every draft + 1-2 below AVG to AVG starters every year...
Hail Caesar! Thank you for signing our permission slips to sleep again.
I'm looking forward to hearing more from you about why our next Right Tackle needs manners and uses words like "please" and "thanks" on game day. That really went over well with Courtney Brown in the AFC North the first time we gagged on it. Who needs a mean streak for gridiron trenches when we can steal audition candidates from "Glee" or nice kids that outgrew alter boy gigs? After all, every kid that made a bad decision between 18-21 years of age didn't deserve a career thereafter. Let's just keep drafting nice guys so we can understand why we keep finishing where we finish.
Robiskie is a GREAT kid and so is MoMass. Meanwhile, Lawrence Taylor is still a jerk. I'm so thankful I never had to worry about Robiskie getting suspended for bad behavior. Who else was going to thank an opposing corner for covering him like a blanket on a cold Sunday afternoon? It gives me enormous pride that I can tell every football fan in black and gold that I root for sportsmanship while they focus on paying James Harrison's fines for giving MoMass, Cribbs and McCoy concussions. I mean we'd hate to ever consider what Turkey Jones once needed to do after Jack Lambert was pardoned for hitting Sipe 10 yards out of bounds where Sipe stayed the rest of the day. It's so much more rewarding today to helplessly watch 1 more episode of Jame Harrison doing whatever he wants to Cleveland. Django, please tell me Wacky Wyche isn't your version of Uncle Sam. If so, he's sleeping so much better knowing Cleveland fans like you root for manners on Sunday afternoons.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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Just clickkng Man I'm really glad I stayed out of this thread 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Nice rant, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree, lol Take a look in the Frosteeeee thread
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Wow, your off to a running start making lasting impressions.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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EM was hired to be a football coach, so I can somewhat excuse his drafting.
His drafting is precisely why he had no talent on the team.
True but was he hired to be a Head Coach or that same GM and Head Coach position that Mike Holmgren was once fired as a GM under?
We have to bigger picture this into remembering Savage brought a bunch of out of scheme and overpaid stiffs to the dline. Meanwhile, he surrendered say 1 in 2008 where our first pick didn't launch until round 4. We only landed 1 keeper from the 2008 draft. Then whoever inherited this operation in 2009, had only 4 draft picks scheduled following 1 keeper from 2008.
Why do we suppose Mangini won 10 games as a rookie Head Coach in NY and then 9 games in his 3rd year while he couldn't walk on Lake Erie for us? Could it be life gets easier for Head Coaches when they have a decent GM doing what he is supposed to do? Mangini's replacement didn't win 10 regular season games as a rookie head Coach. He won 9 while needing his last 2 opponents to take a knee while resting starters for the playoffs. As we learned, Jim Sorgi was not Peyton Manning; but to the NY Jets he was willing to be Kris Kringle.
Does a Jimmy Calwell or Marv Levy make a Bill Polian or vice versa? Did Brian Billick make Ozzie Newsome? And does Pittsburgh need Mike Tomlin more than the guy finding the Mike Wallaces?
This franchise didn't begin disappointing its fanbase the day Mangini signed his contract as was introduced as a Head Coach, not to be confused with GM. It started in the 1999 draft and continued to do so successively every year thereafter.
Frustration + human nature always has us wanting it to be as simple as 1 bad Coach or 1 bad QB because then it's a 1 person solution. Unfortunately, every time we replace the QB and Head Coach - the problem hasn't gone away. Maybe history is telling us something we don't want to hear. I've been just as guilty of wanting it to be a 1 person problem solve as well earlier on. Jimmy Johnson could have caved to Steve Walsh but he saw the bigger picture and welcomed the Herschel Walker trade paybacks to refrain from a premature knee jerk on the Troy Aikman that wasn't making everyone around him better in the first 32 starts. We want it done right until we learn a better deserves a 3rd strike in the batter's box. The gig inherited here has never been easy or fast to fix.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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This feels like old times again, lol
Fact no1: Mangini inherited more talent than Crennel and managed a worse record (.313 to .375)
Fact no2: Mangini had a worse overall record (and postseason appearance) as Jets HC than the one BEFORE and AFTER him
Did you really "complain" that we had "only 1 keeper" from the 2008 draft? Really? Our 1st pick was in the 4th and Savage got Rubin....Mangini managed to draft 1 keeper with 4 picks in the top2 rounds...I'd also like to hear which DL you would have drafted in 2008 (from pick 22 on, that was our slot) that was better than Rogers at the time....good luck
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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holy moly.....riff and the flugel?
hope wisconsin treats ya well riff.....at least you'll get to watch a real football team, i find football is still enjoyable when the emotional investment is kept in check. best of luck man!!
welcome to the home of hyperbole and strawman arguments. not sure as to the roaming, but everyplace is about the same. divided, argumentative, and absurd.
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Fact no1: Mangini inherited more talent than Crennel
tell us jango...how exactly do you quantify this to make it a fact? subjective opinion is not a source for proving facts.
Last edited by choco; 03/19/12 02:20 PM.
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http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/cleveland-browns/roster/2005http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Cleveland_Browns_seasonRomeo Crennel had very little in talent, save for Braylon Edwards (Winslow was out this year) By the time Mangini stepped in we had Jamal Lewis coming off a good year, Braylon, Steinbach, Joe Thomas and Shaun Rogers. Mangini had bigger name players and players that have proven they can play at a high level. Regardless of how that year ultimately turned out, we had better reason to feel good going in than in 2005.
#gmstrong
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I find it kinda odd how we can quite easily look at our continual failure on the field and point to over a decade of terrible drafting and free agency decisions as a core reason behind things.... and in almost the same sentence then argue which coach had more to work with.
We haven't had anything more than different flavors of crap for almost 12 years. When we DID get good players, we routinely misused them or miscast them in the wrong type of system (see us going to a 3-4 defense - and then drafting a 4-3 MLB in DQ.. or the 346 different 1st round Centers that we've drafted since 1999 - each one taken when we already had a perfectly good Center on the team).
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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save for BE and K2?
what?
so, except for the 2 most talented (or highest drafted) players on that team, RAC had less talent?
got it.
so i guess that means RAC was a great coach, right? he took a "talentless" team to 10-6.....what happened the year after that again?
uh huh....revisionist histories ftw!
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My afternoon wasn't all that bad until I read your thoughts for the day ! 
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Glad to be of help, lol
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Fact no1: Mangini inherited more talent than Crennel
tell us jango...how exactly do you quantify this to make it a fact? subjective opinion is not a source for proving facts.
Mangini inherited J.Lewis, Winslow, BE, Thomas, Steiny, Rubin, Dqwell, Vickers...he turned former 1st rounders and ProBowlers (at the time their trade vakue was high) Winslow and BE into Royal, Stuckey and a bunch of 2nd round busts and talentless players who worshipped him (mostly because noobody else would give them a job)...they day he took over the Browns didn't have a passing game anymore because of it...and we're still, to this day, missing the production of a combined 4 high picks in this Offense (KW, BE, Robo, Massa)...if it wasn't for Heckert who got in Haden, Ward, Fujita, Watson, Gocong, Brown and the 2011 draft class, he would have left an even worse roster to Shurmur
Crennel had Jason freaking Fisk playing NT and Ross Verba at LT
We can post the entire rosters the moment they signed the contract to be the HC but this won't end good for you...I'm trying to be nice here
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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I totally agree. I've wondered where some of these guys would be if they had been drafted by decent teams.
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Rubin was a backup in 2008. He played more in 2009, and started in 2010.
DQ was hurt in both 2009 and 2010.
Vickers was so loved by this regime that they booted him last year.
Edwards tumbled from 1389 yards in 2007 to 873 in 2008. He was arrested twice in 2009, and was finally shipped out. (which is why he was traded) Every other team he has played for has seen him as addition by subtraction, and he is so highly sought after at 29 that he is currently sitting at home without a team.
Winslow was definitely a talent. However, he also said that he was going to hold out unless he was made the highest paid TE in football. Tampa did that for him. We weren't going to do that given his injuries and such. Do you think that we should have made Winslow the highest paid TE at the time?
Lewis was still a force at RB. Given the very RB friendly system that Mangini/Daboll ran, Lewis put up a whopping 500 yards and 3.5 yards/attempt in 9 games in 2009. That's a force ..... right? he was also injured in 2009.
Thomas and Steinbach were definitely exceptional talents at LT and LG. They might have been the best left side in football.
Of your list, I would accept Winslow, Vickers, Thomas, and Steinbach as legitimate starters, who were contributor before he took over, and who did well in 2009 as well. Edwards self destructed, and I had no problem with trading a guy who was not playing hard, and who hgad been arrested twice in one year. He hasn't done much since leaving. DQ and Lewis were hurt.
Now, I didn't like the way that Mangini handled the QB position, switching back and forth and back again. That was probably one of the worst on field things he did. he had crap, but bouncing back and forth between crap A and crap B did no one any good.
He made mistakes, and he inherited a few established quality players ..... but he also had a ton of crap on that team. Let's not pretend that he had a bunch of Hall of Fame players on the roster he saw when he was hired.
One could legitimately argue that last year's team had far, far more talent than Mangini's or Romeo's 1st team. He also got DQ back from injury, which was like having another high draft pick.. We still went 4-12.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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We still went 4-12.
..and we did it against the weakest schedule that we've played since Crennel's 10-6 season.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Under Mangini in 2009, his 1st season...and you can only compare HIS 1st to Shurmur's 1st imho, we had a terrible Offense and a bad Defense...we scored 245p and allowed 375p...that's -130
Under Shurmur last season, and even though going 0-6 in our Division, I was happier with those games than under him...we actually were in all but 1 of those games til the end...we had, again, a terrible Offense but a decent D...we scored 218p and allowed 307p...that's -89p
Now, both season's were bad...and I don't think you're trying to tell me that a couple of late season wins against dead teams makes any difference comparing their respective debuts as Browns HC....but for a change we had 1 side of the ball palying at respectable NFL level....many are quick to trash Shurmur for the Offense...but I see nobody giving him props for the D side of the ball...and again....at least this time around we're letting some young hopefuls play.. A LOT of them....we're not playing with never have beens this time around
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Well there was that too ...... but I figured that someone would accuse me of being a Mangini apologist if I mentioned strength of schedule at all ........  
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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We still went 4-12.
..and we did it against the weakest schedule that we've played since Crennel's 10-6 season.
I can't believe this crap still gets spewed around here..... 
Preseason SOS was at .492...middle of the road...see here: http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/35095/2011-strength-of-schedule
After this season it was .531...
I posted those numbers multiple times but I guess the nonsense won't stop...but hey, it's not a lie when you believe it, right?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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save for BE and K2?
what?
so, except for the 2 most talented (or highest drafted) players on that team, RAC had less talent?
got it.
so i guess that means RAC was a great coach, right? he took a "talentless" team to 10-6.....what happened the year after that again?
uh huh....revisionist histories ftw!
You're reading far too much into it. I'm not making any comparisons against RAC and Mangini except to say that I think many people would agree that Mangini had better players than Romeo did.
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I was thinking the same thing. A pre-season strength of schedule is good to predict how tough your schedule going into a season. But now that the season is over we know how good teams were and we don't have to predict anything.
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...and still, our preseason SOS still was 19th...playing in the AFC North there will never be an easy SOS...we were 4-6 against the rest of our schedule..
#gmstrong
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Under Mangini in 2009, his 1st season...and you can only compare HIS 1st to Shurmur's 1st imho, we had a terrible Offense and a bad Defense...we scored 245p and allowed 375p...that's -130
God bless ya! You like facts all of a sudden?
We won 4 games in a row in 2009 for the first time since Vinny Testaverde started at QB here in the early/mid 90s. I feel your pain! That was such a depressing finish going undefeated the last 4 weeks.
We beat Pittsburgh and kept them from making the playoffs in 2009. Let's not pretend we were getting spoiled by how often we were beating Pittsburgh before Mangini.
Our running game finished ranked 5th out of 32 teams when we faced 11 defenders playing run exclusively on every play. They knew we couldn't throw the ball. KC was sticking its glass chin out just daring Quinn to throw at single coverage outside on a day they couldn't stop a journey man RB like Jerome Harrison. Quinn threw 2 INTs despite of the wonderful opportunity. Our running game finished that KC game with about 250 yards rushing. Best part? They knew Cleveland was going to run the ball and they couldn't stop it even with numbers.
Ready for this? We finished as the 5th best team at sacking the QB which is pretty impressive when you factor how many teams needed to throw on us for much of 2009.
If you're so sure Mangini sucked why did he win 10 games as a rookie Head Coach in NY when the alleged upgrade there needed Jim Sorgi and the Bengals to give them the kneel downs to go from 7-7 to 9-7. Now it's their 3rd year and Ryan (with the same GM) only won 8 games right? 1st round QB, Plex Burress, Santonio Holmes and Dustin Keller - all first round talents right? Uh oh, sounds like Mangini won more with less in NY than Rex Ryan.
Here's my version of facts. It's not about the Xs and Os. It's about the Jimmies and Joes. Don't believe me? Tell you what. Go challenge someone to a game of chess and let them use every chess piece and you only use pawns. When your finished, you'll get a better understanding.
Fact: We had no day 1 in the 2008 draft, which meant our very first pick didn't take place until round 4. This netted us 1 keeper unless you spotted Beau Bell, Martin Rucker and Paul Mother Hubbard starting for other NFL teams.
Fact: Mangini inherited a hollow front office with 4 draft picks scheduled for 2009. I have no problem with anyone telling me he's not a good GM. Having said that, he was a part of drafts that added D'Brick Ferguson, Dustin Keller, Nick Mangold, David Harris, and Darrelle Revis.
Fact: Mangini was introduced as a Head Coach not a GM.
You went on record that our 2009 team was talented. If that's the case why did the GM and Head Coach from the year before if we were celebrating happily ever after?
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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We won 4 games in a row in 2009 for the first time since Vinny Testaverde started at QB here in the early/mid 90s. I feel your pain! That was such a depressing finish going undefeated the last 4 weeks.
And Mangini was rewarded for that. Holmgren kept him on for another year. If it weren't for that four game stretch at the end, he probably would've been canned a lot sooner.
That stretch earned him a second chance ... and he shot himself in the foot. Again.
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Ready for this? We finished as the 5th best team at sacking the QB which is pretty impressive when you factor how many teams needed to throw on us for much of 2009.
Did you mean how little teams needed to throw on us?
We gave up the 5th most rushing yards and the 4th highest YPC allowed. Teams didn't need to throw on us very much. Not that they couldn't ...
We gave up the 4th most passing yards, the 5th most yards per attempt, were 29th in INT's, and 21st in points allowed per game.
Oh, and we were only ranked 8th in sacks, and it was mainly because Ryan loved to blitz constantly.
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Our running game finished ranked 5th out of 32 teams when we faced 11 defenders playing run exclusively on every play
Fifth in what?
8th in total yards, 15th in YPC, 20th in rushing TD's.
If you're going to be condescending and tout yourself as dealing in fact, you may want to make sure your stats are correct and not cherrypicked.
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Uh oh, sounds like Mangini won more with less in NY than Rex Ryan.
Both men coached the Jets for 3 years.
Ryan: 28-20, 4-2 in the playoffs.
Mangini: 23-25, 0-1 in the playoffs.
Are you really hinging your argument on the fact that Mangini had one more regular season win than Ryan in their first seasons?
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Fact: you're gonna PO that cat so bad he'll not be back.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Both men coached the Jets for 3 years.
Ryan: 28-20, 4-2 in the playoffs.
Mangini: 23-25, 0-1 in the playoffs.
Mangini was 10-6 as a rookie Head Coach without needing the 2 final regular season opponents to take a knee. Rex Ryan was 7-7 with Indy and Cincy resting starters the final 2 weeks to make that 9-7.
Season #3 Mangini was 9-7 while Rex Ryan was 8-8. I got the impression if Favre's throwing arm didn't rupture - we would have seen more games like the one where NY decimated the undefeated Titans. If the 3 year plan to upgrade Mangini equated to Rex Ryan's 8-8 record some 3 years later - no wonder why that franchise takes a back seat to the NY Giants.
What was your other point? Oh yaa, you rearranged my statement that applauded Cleveland ranking 5th out of 32 teams in sacks in 2009 considering how many teams needed to throw on us. You wanted to change that to "did I mean how little teams needed to throw on us?" Okay, I'll use your wording of that; but continue to conclude it's a nice accomplishment to rank that high in such an important category. If running the ball improved to 5th overall as well as sacking the QB into an that same elite ranking - I dare it showed me why and how this team was able to win 100% it's last 4 games. If we had a competant GM orchestrating the 2008 and 2009 drafts as well as getting free agents that weren't out of scheme or gas - the improvement we witnessed might have been faster, better and longer.
Hey, did you happen to notice how many times our previously unemployed punter (Reggie Hodges) pinned Pittsburgh inside their 5-20 yard line that time we beat them in 2009? And did you notice particularly how many times that team sacked Ben Rapen on such a day? I know Mangini's biggest critics want us to know we were blessed with the highest paid free agent punter (Dave Zastudil) in the league. What they don't want our readers to remember or acknowledge is how many consecutive seasons that same punter landed on IR. That gets inconvenient to the hindsight edits that Mangini inherited a terrific franchise full of chemistry, talent and continuity.
And what Mangini's critics don't want our readers to remember is that the following players landed on IR or in jail during seasons we couldn't afford to start many backups:
Done Stallworth
Steve Heiden
D'Qwell Jackson (2009 & 2010)
Tony Pashos
Jamal Lewis
Shaun Rogers (2009 & 2010)
Scott Fujita
Montario Hardesty
Billy Yates
Kenyon Coleman
Robaire Smith
Evan Moore
Blake Costanzo
Dave Zastudil (2009 & 2010)
Eric Wright
Eric Barton
Brodney Pool
CJ Mosely
Jamal Lewis
Brady Quinn
James Davis
When this franchise hasn't drafted well since 1999, that list above is no way to followup just 1 keeper from our 2008 draft that began in round 4 followed by an inheritance of only 4 draft picks 1 year later in 2010. Not exactly conducive to building a talented roster or creating depth. You can believe what you want to believe in thinking Mangini had the most talented roster in the AFC North. There's no changing a mind that's already made. Reality is our franchise struggles didn't begin with Mangini's arrival. Even worse, they never stopped. Do I need type that he didn't hire himself? If you despise the thought of him - you might want to consider who made that epic decision to hire him. Someone keeps hiring these coaches we can't wait to complain about.
Anyway, what smart owner hires his Head Coach before his GM and/or VP? Doesn't this set up an environment for incompatibility ahead if the bigger plan is to bring in a VP that wants things done his way? Do I join you and DJango for blaming Mangini exclusively for Lerner not learning a thing from the incompatibility between RAC and Savage? That's like a new owner of an Italian Restaurant hiring a Chinese chef that only cooks Asian Cuisine for a customer base that only wants Italian food. When the experienced Restaurant Manager gets hired 6 months later - he notices the cook has some delicious meals, the restaurant has some crowds but they are less frequent and less committed. People that want the Italian dishes now have to go somewhere else while the new Manager develops a plan that will inevitably change cooks and menus to bring back old crowds. The only question left is how long does this take to get it right again?
It doesn't matter how we present it. Some fans are going to continue to assure themselves that 1 year the problem is the Head Coach and the next year it is the QB. We've been alternating these 2 scapegoats since 1999 while nobody dared to consider men like Carmen Policy, Dwight Clark, Butch Davis, Phil Savage, or the Lerners had anything to do with where this franchise is today. Nope. It's always been as easy as just the QB or the Head Coach. 1 simple solution for 13 straight years. This year we're right on schedule to pretend McCoy is the glacier sinking the Titanic on Lake Erie. Why would we ever want to challenge ourselves to think it could be something different? I know I know. Rumor has it the boy who cries wolf all the time is eventually going to see a wolf.
So where does this leave us? In a hurry to dump a QB only 21 starts old from 2 different playbooks for another Big 12 QB that has only 1 full season of starting at the position. And after a season full of culture shock for this poor kid, we're going to be right on schedule to chase another Head Coach out of town.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/20/12 12:33 AM.
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holy moly.....riff and the flugel?
hope wisconsin treats ya well riff.....at least you'll get to watch a real football team, i find football is still enjoyable when the emotional investment is kept in check. best of luck man!!
welcome to the home of hyperbole and strawman arguments. not sure as to the roaming, but everyplace is about the same. divided, argumentative, and absurd.
Glad to see you posting here Choco!
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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Mangini was 10-6 as a rookie Head Coach without needing the 2 final regular season opponents to take a knee. Your boy Rex Ryan was 7-7 with Indy and Cincy resting starters the final 2 weeks to make that 9-7. Spin that any way you have to.
Rex Ryan isn't my boy. I don't really like the guy. And I'm not the one spinning here - you're the one trying to argue that the guy with the 23-25 record "won more" than the guy with the 28-20 record.
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If running the ball improved to 5th overall as well as sacking the QB into an that same elite ranking - I dare it showed my why and how this team was able to win 100% it's last 4 games.
For the second time - they were not 5th in sacks. nor were they 5th in rushing.
Your facts were incorrect, making your condescending 'You like facts all of a sudden? ' rant look very foolish.
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What was your other point? Oh yaa, you rearranged my statement that applauded Cleveland ranking 5th out of 32 teams in sacks in 2009 considering how many teams needed to throw on us. You wanted to change that to "did I mean how little teams needed to throw on us?" Okay, I'll use your wording of that; but continue to conclude it's a nice accomplishment to rank that high in such an important category.
a) Were you actually trying to say that teams had to pass on us often? 
b) For the second time, we were 8th in sacks. We were in the cellar on nearly every other statistical defensive category. We were 2nd in passing yards allowed this season, but I'm not about to use that as an example as to why Shurmur is succeeding. You cherrypicked one single category (and were wrong about the ranking) to prove ... I'm not sure what, exactly.
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If we had a competant GM orchestrating the 2008 and 2009 drafts as well as getting free agents that weren't our of scheme or gas - the improvement we witnessed might have been longer.
So you're essentially arguing that if Mangini hadn't screwed the roster up royally, and handpicked his inept buddy as a puppet GM, he might still be around?
Or are you going to go the traditional Mangini apologist route, and blame Savage's GM mistakes while 'excusing' Mangini's?
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You can believe what you want to believe in thinking Mangini had the most talented roster in the AFC North. I'm going to try to remind you of some inconvenient truths that don't cooperate with that.
a) I've never said anything remotely resembling that.
b) I'm saying this as nicely as I can - you need to drop the condescension. You've been wrong on so many fronts in this thread that it's becoming laughable. Not only do you continue your condescension, but you're still tossing out numbers and rankings that are not only flat out wrong, but highly tailored.
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Our franchise struggles didn't begin with Mangini's arrival.
No, he merely added to them.
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Anyway, what smart owner hires his Head Coach before his GM and/or VP? Doesn't this set up an environment for incompatibility ahead if the bigger plan is to bring in a VP that wants things done his way? Do I join you and DJango for blaming Mangini exclusively for Lerner not learning a thing from the incompatibility between RAC and Savage?
Second time - stop putting words in my mouth. I never said anything of the sort.
I'm not a huge Lerner fan, and he's contributed greatly to this mess. But that doesn't serve as an excuse for Mangini's poor performance here in Cleveland.
Randy may have been wrong, but that doesn't let Mangini off the hook.
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I'm not the one spinning here - you're the one trying to argue that the guy with the 23-25 record "won more" than the guy with the 28-20 record.
For the second time - they were not 5th in sacks. nor were they 5th in rushing.
From where I sit, Mangini finished with better regular season records 2 of the 3 years he was a Head Coach in NY. That's 67% of the career there in NY Mangini bettered Rex Ryan in regular season records. That's not spin. It's the truth.
Mangini was 10-6 as a rookie Head Coach. Rex Ryan needed Cincy and Indy to take a knee resting starters before their playoffs in order for Rex's 7-7 team to finish 9-7. Then, Mangini went 9-7 in his 3rd year there while Rex Ryan went 8-8. That's how I come to 2 out of 3 regular seasons favoring Mangini, which = 67%.
As for the 2009 team defense sacks rankings, here's the top 3 teams in the AFC:
Pittsburgh 47 sacks
Miami 44 sacks
Cleveland 40 sacks
We were actually better than 5th in the conference so thanks for encouraging to double-check my short term memory.
2009 Team Rushing Yards Per Game Average in AFC:
New York 172.3
Tennessee 162
Miami 139.4
Baltimore 137.5
Cleveland 130.4
Feel free to double check those numbers and conference rankings from 2009. Now there's taking this information and looking at the roster/talent in terms of assessing whether or not the coaching was making the team improve in 2009 in some important areas. OR, there's another agenda that prefers to get stuck on whether we were 3rd or 5th overall in our conference. The point about Rex vrs Mangini shouldn't have stalled where you wanted it to, It should have remained on who did more with less.
Last but not least, if you're gonna dissect people's posts to the frequency of challenging every other sentence - you're going to need thicker skin to handle the replies that come back at you. You weren't exactly polite and courteous but I don't mind. I'm a golden rule kind of guy so I work with a tone one wants to set with me. Most of the people that have welcomed me or engaged me in conversation have been treated pretty good.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/20/12 01:54 AM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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From where I sit, Mangini finished with better regular season records 2 of the 3 years he was a Head Coach in NY. That's 67% of the career there in NY Mangini bettered Rex Ryan in regular season records. That's not spin. It's the truth.
Mangini was 10-6 as a rookie Head Coach. Rex Ryan needed Cincy and Indy to take a knee resting starters before their playoffs in order for Rex's 7-7 team to finish 9-7. Then, Mangini went 9-7 in his 3rd year there while Rex Ryan went 8-8. That's how I come to 2 out of 3 regular seasons favoring Mangini, which = 67%.
This is so ridiculous, I don't even know what to say.
Ryan took the Jets to the AFC Championship his first two years as HC. He's posted more regular season wins than Mangini did, as well as more playoff wins.
And you're going to disregard the playoffs, dwell on two late season games, and then insulate the respective seasons, and tell ME that I'M trying to spin things?
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As for the 2009 team defense sacks rankings, here's the top 3 teams in the AFC:
Pittsburgh 47 sacks
Miami 44 sacks
Cleveland 40 sacks
We were actually better than 5th in the conference so thanks for encouraging to double-check my short term memory.
You didn't say conference. You said:
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Oh yaa, you rearranged my statement that applauded Cleveland ranking 5th out of 32 teams in sacks in 2009 considering how many teams needed to throw on us.
There are 32 teams in the NFL, not the AFC.
This is what I'm talking about. It's one thing to be wrong, but you came roaring out the gate in a condescending tone about 'facts' and 'truth' and how others were trying to 'spin' things, and here you are, twisting in the wind trying to backtrack on incorrect stats/facts while still carrying an air of condescension.
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2009 Team Rushing Yards Per Game Average in AFC:
New York 172.3
Tennessee 162
Miami 139.4
Baltimore 137.5
Cleveland 130.4
You said, and once again, I quote:
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Our running game finished ranked 5th out of 32 teams when we faced 11 defenders playing run exclusively on every play.
You want to keep spinning, go ahead. You might make yourself dizzy, though.
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Last but not least, if you're gonna dissect people's posts to the frequency of challenging every other sentence - you're going to need thicker skin to handle the replies that come back at you. You weren't exactly polite and courteous but I don't mind. I'm a golden rule kind of guy so I work with a tone one wants to set with me. Most of the people that have welcomed me or engaged me in conversation have been treated pretty good.
Dude, it's not about having thin-skin. I wasn't offended by anything you said, I was merely pointing out that it's a bad look to come in with a condescending tone, talking about facts and truth when you're spouting off numbers that lack both. It looks kind of silly to preface statements with things like 'uh oh' or 'ready for this?' and then spit out false statements.
If you want to keep going here, I'm more than happy to oblige, as it gets funnier with every response, but if I were you, I'd just admit I was wrong and walk away from this one.
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I'd just admit I was wrong and walk away from this one.
I think that after reading all of his "claims" you'll never see this dude walk away.
Although after reading his stuff it would be a wise move.
Next up: Chris Palmer - Only 14 wins from a Super Bowl........
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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From where I sit, Mangini finished with better regular season records 2 of the 3 years he was a Head Coach in NY. That's 67% of the career there in NY Mangini bettered Rex Ryan in regular season records. That's not spin. It's the truth.
Mangini was 10-6 as a rookie Head Coach. Rex Ryan needed Cincy and Indy to take a knee resting starters before their playoffs in order for Rex's 7-7 team to finish 9-7. Then, Mangini went 9-7 in his 3rd year there while Rex Ryan went 8-8. That's how I come to 2 out of 3 regular seasons favoring Mangini, which = 67%.
This is so ridiculous, I don't even know what to say.
Dude, it's not about having thin-skin. I wasn't offended by anything you said, I was merely pointing out that it's a bad look to come in with a condescending tone, talking about facts and truth when you're spouting off numbers that lack both. It looks kind of silly to preface statements with things like 'uh oh' or 'ready for this?' and then spit out false statements.
If you want to keep going here, I'm more than happy to oblige, as it gets funnier with every response, but if I were you, I'd just admit I was wrong and walk away from this one.
What a coincidence! I just went outside to get my morning newspaper and the little Yorkshire Terrier yap dog like you next door was barking at me too. He was telling me in his own adorable little way that he his little bark counts too. They named their little yapster O'Reilly after another blowhard that likes to be heard once he rearranges what others are saying as far away from the original purpose as he can cleverly get it. Then every decibel counts more.
In any event, let's divert all attention and focus away from ranking 3rd in the AFC at sacking the QB and 5th in the conference at running the football in 2009. I pretty much expected you to take the first convenient detour away from information correlating why and where this team was improving. I thought the best way to clarify and correct my 2009 memory was to show what AFC teams they ranked upper conference with rushing the football and sacking the QB in the order it all shook out. Just so your feelings don't get hurt, I should have said AFC instead of overall. My bad. Better news is the rankings are there for those that want to see them; and they can conveniently disappear for people like you that want no part of seeing them. This way you can focus more on telling me I should have used period instead of semi-colon.
As for the NY Jets reasons for bringing Rex Ryan in - it was to improve and upgrade the previous regime. 3 years into that plan they are looking at 8-8 and a coach the couldn't better Mangini's regular season records for 2 of those 3 years. I'd be just as miserable as you are trying to spin doctor that into sounding like massive improvement. And just out of curiosity, when Mangini went 10-6 in NY as a rookie Head Coach - it followed a very disappointing record the year before. This leads us right back to the information you want to play docey doe with - who did more with less in NY?
While we're at it, how many more games did Cleveland win the first year they got rid of Mangini? I'm ecstatic we outscored the 1999 expansion team here by less than a field goal. You've sure proven how easy it is to better Mangini's regular season records in 2 different cities.
I'm going to drive off to work now with an ear to ear grin knowing how many sentences I have just assigned you to nitpick. The further you can detour all eyes away from Cleveland being 3rd in the AFC in team sacks and 5th in the AFC in rushing - the better the job you've done. Thanks for showing me all those cute little high school debate team tricks I missed out on when I was too busy running around in cleats after school.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/20/12 07:50 AM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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Next up: Chris Palmer - Only 14 wins from a Super Bowl........
Now that right there is funny!!
On the outside looking in, this debate has brought a little humor to my morning. At some point I believe it may even be argued that the sky is not blue! (Althought the actual debate will be about whether or not it's Mangini's fault.) 
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Here's a question you won't have to juggle stats for: If Mangini is so good why is he working at the graveyard of washed up football people, ESPN?
I mean, I'd think that if he was all that and a can of beer, as you seem to think, I'd imagine owners and GMs would be knocking down his door. Doesn't seem like that is happening.
By the way, it's usually better if you wait a few months before you start acting like a dick. This "I'm smarter than you dumbasses" schtick you've got going on just doesn't work for most of the people on here.
Last edited by crazyotto55; 03/20/12 07:39 AM.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Here's a question you won't have to juggle stats for: If Mangini is so good why is he working at the graveyard of washed up football people, ESPN?
I mean, I'd think that if he was all that and a can of beer, as you seem to think, I'd imagine owners and GMs would be knocking down his door. Doesn't seem like that is happening.
It's because the entire league got together to plot against him. That way all the other teams at least have a chance to compete for a Super Bowl title each year.
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jc..
Mangini is gone...has been for over a year now...
Mangini's record with the Browns was 10 wins - 22 losses in 2 seasons.
After Holmgren came in, many figured Mangini would be gone...
...but Holmgren kept him and the high point of Mangini's second season came at mid season when the Browns beat the Saints, Patriots and lost to the Jets in OT, everyone thought Mangini had the team on track and that he had a good chance of retaining his job...
...then the end of season 4 game losing streak that likely ended any chance that Holmgren would keep Mangini.
So, Mangini is gone and has been for over a year now...might be time to move on.
The Browns are just entering year 3 of rebuilding the team via the draft.
...2010 was the first year, with Mangini as HC and Heckert as GM
...2011 was the second year, with Shurmur as HC and Heckert as GM
...the 2012 league year started last week with the start of free agency Mar. 13.
The past is history and can't be changed.
Today is March 20, 2012...the future is any time beyond NOW !
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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