DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pat Shurmur: Keeping Colt McCoy as starting QB

Will this Adcock dream end? He's not a day 1 RT starter....he's a RT longshot project....he has to learn a complete new Offense, there's a reason he's been mocked in the 7th (if at all) lately

You want a day ready RT that is better than Pashos long and short term? Reiff, Martin, Schwartz...that's it...the rest are either projects or highly inconcistent (at the College level) and will look as bad as Pashos, if not worse, their rookie season....RT is a tougher position to play than G and many still complain about the play of 3rd and 5th round picks on this team, so if you think you can find a day 1 ready RT on day ˆ...dream on

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Otto, I agree that MH isn't going anywhere. Heckert either. But if we average 13ppg again, Shurmur is done. I'd be willing to bet a case of your favorite beer on it.

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A couple of things in response......My favorite beer is generally the beer I make myself so I'm not sure how we can manage this bet but I'll think on it.

As far as Shurmur getting the boot if we average 13ppg.....I'll say it right now, barring some kind of "Bounty-Gate" type revelation or finding out that he has an unnatural relationship with a farm animal Pat Shurmur will get a 3rd year as HC. That is just the way I see H&H doing business.

Remember he (Holmgren) kept a guy that he knew in his heart wasn't what he wanted in a coach (see Mangini, Eric) because he felt it was unfair to fire him so quickly. Shurmur is his handpicked guy. He ain't going anywhere.

As far as your other points, I cannot disagree. We need better play from almost everyone if we are to approach a winning record. The Draft will tell us a LOT about what will be a reasonable expectation record-wise for the coming season.

I have a slight disagreement in that I don't see us taking any RB at #4. Period. There are enough good/decent guys that can be had later thus preventing us from pulling the trigger on Richardson at 4.

And just as an aside I have heard more than one talking head say that Minnesota is seriously considering taking Claiborne at # 3. Which could make our pick much more attractive for those Kalil loving teams out there. Draft day cannot get here soon enough for me.

Otto, I agree on all counts.

Shurmur will get his 3rd season.

Why are some of you focusing on the 13ppg of the dismal last season and already concerned that it may occur again? Honestly, what's the chance of that repeating after a season in this new offense under their belt, an actual offseason of teaching it (for the first time), some new talent (although it's rookies who need time to develop) and the coaching staff who will actually know who their players are and what each can do before training camp begins?

I seriously can't imagine the production being equaled this coming season after the mess the last offseason was and looking forward to actually having one this year. Common sense alone says that something ought to get a little bit better don't you think?

I once saw a foot race in which the lead runner fell down just feet before the finish line and by the time he got up and going again he came in 6th. How many people afterward said, "If he keeps falling down before the finish line he sucks, his coaching sucks and he'll never amount to anything? While that would be true were it to happen I doubt anyone said such a thing because really, what's the chance of that happening?

Same here. Last year the lockout created a disaster for a team who just tore down the roster, had barely begun to rebuild it, changed schemes on both sides of the ball as well as nearly the entire coaching staff beginning with a new rookie head coach.

This team would have to be full of coaches who are bumbling idiots and less talent than any team has ever had to see a repeat of last season's putrid offensive output.

Of course, if one believes it is that bad from the top down then yes, I can see the concern.

But it doesn't look that bad to me.

Hell, we have three former head coaches on staff (Juron was a "Coach of the Year") and a former Superbowl winning head coach as the president. Our GM was the GM of a team who went to 3 NFC Championship games and 1 Superbowl appearance. Our head coach was an assistant coach on that same team. So was our OC.

They are not bumbling idiots in my opinion.

The talent level is improving albeit slowly as it does take time to fill a roster with quality draft picks. Our QB, although he looked bad last season in the new offense, we've all seen him look better before when he had a running game.

So the chance of repeating the offensive output of last season is nil in my opinion.

So why all the focus on that? And why assign an ultimatum based on that? And why call for heads to roll based on that some thing?

It's an exercise of expecting the absolute worst possible scenario and then running with it as though it's nearly a given that it will happen.

No thanks to that kind of hopeless thinking. Hopeless meaning, of course, having no hope that this organization can rise above the lowest of low points.

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13ppg would not be improvement. He will not get another season under those condition

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As I said, barring some kind of scandal, Shurmur will get his 3rd year.

You can have some of my home brew......right after I win this bet.

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Why are some of you focusing on the 13ppg of the dismal last season and already concerned that it may occur again? Honestly, what's the chance of that repeating after a season in this new offense under their belt, an actual offseason of teaching it (for the first time), some new talent (although it's rookies who need time to develop) and the coaching staff who will actually know who their players are and what each can do before training camp begins?

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2005 - 14.5 ppg (32nd in the NFL)
2006 - 14.9 ppg (30th in the NFL)
2007 - 25.1 ppg (8th in the NFL)
2008 - 14.5 ppg (31st in the NFL)
2009 - 15.3 ppg (29th in the NFL)
2010 - 16.9 ppg (31st in the NFL)
2011 - 13.6 ppg (31st in the NFL)

I appreciate your optimism that it can't/won't happen again.. but history isn't on your side.

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2007 - 25.1 ppg (8th in the NFL)

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Wasn't it fun watching the Browns in 2007?

I know...it's about talent and talent evaluation though...Mangini, Royal, Robo, Veikune and probably pretty soon Massa are already out of the league...meanwhile Chud is managing an up and coming Panthers Offense, Winslow still is consistently catching passes in Tampa...BE's career is fading, but he still caught 11 TDs in 2 seasons in NY and just from a talent standpoint I'd still take him over Massa...even today and he would have been more productive than Massa in 09 and 2010

We gave away NFL talent and traded it into CFL talent

Didn't mean to stir things up. Just reminiscing.

But we had one good season then DA fell apart. Million dollar arm but a 10 cent mental make-up. He just couldn't take the pressure. So yes Daman you are right.

Then Mangini came aboard a sinking ship and made sure that it hit bottom. So yes Dj you are right too.

Wow,when was the last time everybody was right? Is this a Dawgtalkers first?

And our "rock bottom" was going from 4-12 in 2008 to 5-11 in 2009 and 2010.

Thank goodness we rebounded to 4-12 last year.

Crennel .375
Mangini .313



Both sucked, although I still find it incredible that everyone agrees on Romeo but there are still Mangini lovers out there that think he was just a misunderstood redheaded stepchild in Cleveland...even funnier when you think where both are right now...but I digress

It's pretty pointless overall, all I care about is the situation the Browns are in today...and Mangini is to blame far more for that than Romeo, that's why I still spank that dead horse...to remind people that part of today's problems or needs are because of failed offseasons before...and 09 was an epic fail....I remember that I labled it the worst offseason a professional sports team could have managed, what a disaster, from FA to the draft...those 4 Top 50 picks should enter their 4th season and prime years, but we have only 1...and it's a Center...I think there are still a couple of ProBowl-C in FA

In the long run, Edwards would probably be gone, even if Holmgren was here that first year. I would not expect them to pay Winslow as the highest paid guy in the game given his history. I don;t see either guy as being a fit for them. hell, Hillis was only diva light in the worst of reports. Edwards and Winslow were full on diva.

Let's not forget that Edwards had been arrested twice by the time he was dumped. (traded is a nice way to put it, but much like Quinn, we got what we could for a product that had dropped badly in value)

Anyway ... 4-12, 5-11, both suck ..... and we've been one or the other for each and every one of the past 4 years.

I actually liked the Winslow trade at first. It was good value for a question mark-filled talent we weren't likely to keep around anyway.

Mangini screwed it up by selecting Massaquoi, and Heckert burned the 5th en route to acquiring Hardesty, IIRC.

Edwards was a different story. It was pretty clear from day one that Mangini didn't really have Edwards in his plans. They clashed early, and Mangini drafted two WR's early. Even back before we traded him, I'd said that the writing on the wall was that Edwards was done here, and that we may as well ship him off. Mangini waited until his value hit rock bottom, and fleeced him off for Stuckey, Trusnik, a third and a fifth, which Heckert spent on Lauvao and Larry Asante.

We essentially wound up with Mohammed Massaquoi and Shawn Lauvao for Edwards and Winslow. Regardless of whether they were in long-term plans, that is simply terrible value. I understand the Edwards trade came at a low point in terms of value, but we again saw Mangini's penchant for coveting special teams stiffs and underachievers.

Heckert didn't really do Mangini any favors, either.

Savage's 2008 and Mangini's 2009 drafts were just abysmal. All we're left with from those is Rubin, Mack and Massaquoi, and Maiava.

I wouldn't say that we were necessarily onto something before those two drafts, but we were in position to be. Then Savage fleeced the farm for Quinn (always hated the move), gave up a second for Williams (was always leery of that move) and a third for Rogers (was glad we pulled the trigger on that one). And if that wasn't bad enough, Mangini decided to pretend he was Bill Belicheck and completely wasted the 2009 draft.

I haven't been as enamored with Heckert as others, but the guy certainly looks great by comparison. Thus far, he's done fairly well with his first rounders, and though this year is still up in the air, I'm elated that we didn't lose our heads in the RG3 trade (though I would like to know what we offered).

I can understand his FA restraint, but at the same time ... do something. I'm not saying cannonball into the pool or anything, but this team is pretty barren. I agree with building through the draft and spending smartly, but we all pay damn good money to go out and watch that product. A little sense of urgency is appreciated. I'm not expecting to win more than 4-6 games next year, and I'm not suggesting we break the bank on overinflated deals, but you can't tell me there aren't at least marginal upgrades out there for us to consider.

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unnatural relationship with a farm animal

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I don't think that we were going to get much for Edwards, given that he had been arrested twice in that off-season/season .......... the 2nd time the very week Mangini dumped him. That was only week 4 as well.

I also wonder how many teams were knocking down our doors trying to trade for him. It's obvious that not many wanted him when he left NY ... signing a minimal deal with the Niners ...... and now still sitting at home without a deal late into this off-season.

DUI in the off-season ..... then the alcohol fueled incident outside the nightclub........

Nice post.

I just don't see how we could possibly be a worst team this year.

We couldn't have had a worst set of circumstances last year and to top that off we basically ignored the offense at the top of the draft. Yeah we got Greg Little in the 2nd round, but he was pretty raw and was forced to play right away due to our ineptness from the WR position.

I know the posts have strayed a bit from the original post, but I wonder if anyone has told Seneca Wallace that he lost the competition we were told (by Holmgren) would happen between he and McCoy? I'm okay with that, BTW, because I think Wallace is a backup, but I'm guessing he's not okay with it. I think the Browns should be looking for a backup QB, because I'm concerned Wallace might become a problem in the locker room after being led to believe he'd get a shot at starting. He strikes me as that kind of guy, based on his past statements.

That's a good question. I've forgotten all about him. Everybody's talking about drafting or bringing in a new QB to compete with Colt, If I was SW I think I would be saying "Hey what about me?"

But nfl.com draft analyst Gil Brandt, who stood next to Childress for at least part of Tannehill's workout and also spent time there with Browns quarterback coach Mark Whipple, is convinced the Browns are serious about giving McCoy a shot. "They have a great deal of confidence in Colt and they don't think he's a throwaway," said Brandt


Brandt.. Browns serious about giving McCoy a shot

Busy week on NFL Draft front doesn't change Cleveland Browns pick in Mary Kay Cabot's Top 10 mock draft, version 2.0
Published: Saturday, March 31, 2012, 6:20 PM Updated: Saturday, March 31, 2012, 8:21 PM
Mary Kay Cabot, The Plain Dealer By Mary Kay Cabot, The Plain Dealer
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blackmon.jpgSue Ogrocki, Associated PressOklahoma State receiver Justin Blackmon still looks like a good catch for the Browns at the fourth overall spot in the first round of the NFL Draft.

CLEVELAND, Ohio — A lot has happened since last week when we examined the Browns' options at the fourth overall spot in the draft and settled on Oklahoma receiver Justin Blackmon as their choice in our first top 10 mock draft.

•Texas A&M quarterback Ryan Tannehill and Alabama running back Trent Richardson generated a lot of buzz with their Pro Day workouts on Thursday and gained some momentum among draft experts as the "it" picks for the Brown at No. 4.

• Browns General Manager Tom Heckert ruled out one of the Browns' options when he guaranteed at the NFL owners meetings that the Browns won't trade up to the No. 3 spot held by the Vikings. He also stressed that if the Browns trade down, it will only be a few spots, probably not much farther than No. 8.

•Rams coach Jeff Fisher identified the Browns as a potential trade partner for the Rams, who are at No. 6 overall but might want to move higher. This is despite the fact the Rams traded the No. 2 overall pick to the Redskins, eschewing the Browns' offer for the pick.

• Browns coach Pat Shurmur made some of his strongest statements of the off-season about quarterback Colt McCoy, saying the Browns are "moving forward" with him as their starter, and the Browns are "looking forward to him being our guy."
Mary Kay Cabot's Top 10 Mock Draft Version 2.0

The only difference in our top 10 mock draft from last week is that Notre Dame wide receiver Michael Floyd has cracked the top 10. That puts two receivers in the top 10, including Oklahoma State's Justin Blackmon who is still penciled in at No. 4 for the Browns. The top 10 will be updated every Sunday leading up to the NFL Draft, April 26-28.

1. Indianapolis -- Andrew Luck, quarterback, Stanford.

Comment: Colts owner Jim Irsay made things interesting this week, saying he's not sure if the Colts will pick Andrew Luck or Robert Griffin III. Really Jim?

2. Washington (trade with Rams) -- Robert Griffin III, quarterback, Baylor.

Comment: Redskins coach Mike Shanahan went along with the game, pretending he could end up with either Luck or Griffin.

3. Minnesota -- Matt Kalil, offensive left tackle, USC.

Comment: This pick could attract some offers from teams wanting to draft players such as Texas A&M quarterback Ryan Tannehill, Oklahoma State receiver Justin Blackmon, and LSU cornerback Morris Claiborne. Or will the Vikings surprise people and take Blackmon themselves?

4. Browns -- Justin Blackmon, wide receiver, Oklahoma State.

Comment: Still seems like the logical pick, despite the fact many experts consider Alabama running back Trent Richardson the better player.

5. Tampa Bay -- Trent Richardson, running back, Alabama.

Comment: If it goes this way, will the Browns have passed up the next Adrian Peterson?

6. St. Louis -- Morris Claiborne, cornerback, LSU.

Comment: Even Tom Heckert admitted it would be hard to pass up Claiborne at No. 4. Rams get best defensive player in draft.

7. Jacksonville -- Quinton Coples, defensive end, North Carolina.

Comment: The Jaguars could also opt for South Carolina pass-rusher Melvin Ingram here.

8. Miami -- Ryan Tannehill, quarterback, Texas A&M.

Comment: Is Tannehill the future franchise quarterback some analysts say he is?

9. Carolina -- Dontari Poe, defensive tackle, Memphis.

Comment: The Panthers could also opt for LSU defensive tackle Michael Brockers here.

10. Buffalo -- Michael Floyd, wide receiver, Notre Dame.

Comment: There's growing sentiment that Floyd is almost as good as Blackmon.

• ESPN's Todd McShay said the eyes of the NFL are on the Browns and that "the whole draft swings at No. 4."

So what to make of all these new developments? It's tempting to want to scratch out Blackmon this week and pencil in Tannehill or Richardson as the choice at No. 4. But we're going to ignore the chatter and stay the course. Blackmon still makes plenty of sense for the Browns, especially if they're really planning to stick with McCoy.

So here it is, a reset of the Browns' options after an eventful week:

1. Trade up: This is no longer appears to be an option. Although some experts predict teams will try to jump up over the Browns to draft Tannehill or Blackmon at No. 3, Heckert promised the Browns will either stay put at No. 4 or trade down, probably no lower than the eighth overall pick. This would seem to indicate that the Browns are fine letting the Dolphin leapfrog them for Tannehill or the Rams climb up for Blackmon. But insiders says the Dolphins are unlikely to scramble up from No. 8 to No. 3, because they're also trying to build through the draft and don't want to surrender picks.

2. Draft Kalil: Heckert threw USC offensive tackle Matt Kalil into the mix last week as a possible option if he is available to the Browns at No. 4. But Kalil would be the starting right tackle for the Browns, who are set at left tackle with Joe Thomas, and No. 4 seems high to draft a player at that position. More than likely the Browns would either pass on Kalil or try to trade down a few spots.

3. Draft Tannehill: The NFL Network's Mike Mayock said this week that Cleveland "has to take" Tannehill at No. 4 because he's a franchise quarterback and the team would be set at that position for years to come. He stressed, however, that Tannehill would have to be developed, and most likely sit behind McCoy for all or part of the season. ESPN's McShay echoed those sentiments, saying that he doesn't think the dropoff from Baylor's Robert Griffin III to Tannehill "is all that big" and Tannehill "has a chance to be great." But nfl.com draft analyst Gil Brandt, who stood next to Childress for at least part of Tannehill's workout and also spent time there with Browns quarterback coach Mark Whipple, is convinced the Browns are serious about giving McCoy a shot. "They have a great deal of confidence in Colt and they don't think he's a throwaway," said Brandt.

4. Draft Blackmon: A lot of experts say Blackmon would only touch the ball six or seven times a game while Richardson would handle it 20 or more. But Blackmon would impact the game on every offensive play because he has to be accounted for. If a defense has to roll coverage to Blackmon, it would open things up for Greg Little, who's poised to take a big step forward this season. Again, it's a passing league and the Browns run the pass-oriented West Coast offense. It's easier to find a quality running back in later rounds than it is an elite receiver. Heckert said last week that the Browns passing on Julio Jones at No. 6 last season had everything to do with the boatload of picks they were able to get, not the player.

5. Draft Richardson: Most experts think Richardson is a superior prospect to Blackmon and arguably the premier player in this draft. "There's no question that Trent Richardson is a better talent, and I think he has a chance to come in and become an immediate success," said McShay. "I don't see a huge difference between he and Adrian Peterson. They can't go wrong, but I'd take Richardson over Blackmon." Browns coach Pat Shurmur and GM Tom Heckert opted to attend Richardson's Pro Day over Tannehill's, but that doesn't mean much because the team will go back for private workouts with both players and both will also come to Berea. Question is, will the Browns take a back at No. 4 when they can get 100-yard games out of a Chris Ogbonnaya.

6. Draft Morris Claiborne: "We don't think we're going to take a defensive guy, but it would tough to pass on him," Heckert said last week. "He's really, really good." Not even Claiborne's recent surgery to repair a torn left wrist ligament was enough to dissuade Heckert. "It's not a big deal," Heckert said. "He'll be fine."

7. Trade down: If the Browns can pick up an extra second-round pick and still get a player they really like, they won't hesitate to trade down. Although Heckert has said the Browns will probably stay at No. 4, he's open to dealing with teams such as the Bucs at the No. 5, the Rams at No. 6, the Jaguars at No. 7 or the Dolphins at No. 8. The Rams, who have the first and seventh picks in the second round (Nos. 33 and 39 overall) have the ammunition to make a deal. If Browns can be assured of getting Blackmon, Richardson, Claiborne or Tannehill, why not jump at the chance to add another impact player by picking up an extra second-round pick?

.Here is a nice breakdown of Arm Strength.

QB Arm Strength

Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2012
Posted on March 12, 2012 by ProScoutDan

Brandon Weeden 2012

Ourlads’ Guide to the NFL Draft is the only source that gives the number for the quarterback’s velocity at the NFL Combine. Velocity is measured by a radar gun in miles per hour.

YEAR: 2012

Brandon Weeden, Oklahoma State 59

Kirk Cousins, Michigan State 59

Austin Davis, Southern Mississippi 58

Nick Foles, Arizona 57

Chandler Harnish, Northern Illinois 57

Jordan Jefferson, LSU 57

Russell Wilson, Wisconsin 55

Casey Keenum, Houston 55

Patrick Witt, Yale 54

Darron Thomas, Oregon 53

Ryan Lindley, San Diego State 52

Kellen Moore, Boise State 52

Jacory Harris, Miami 50

Aaron Corp, Richmond 50

BJ Coleman, Tennessee-Chattanooga Did not throw

Robert Griffin III, Baylor Did not throw

Andrew Luck, Stanford Did not throw

Brock Osweiler, Arizona State Did not throw

Ryan Tannehill, Texas A&M Did not throw

Andy Dalton 2011

YEAR: 2011

Colin Kaepernick, Nevada 59

Ryan Mallett, Arkansas 58

Patrick Devlin, Delaware 56

Andy Dalton, TCU 56

Cam Newton, Auburn 56

Scott Tolzien, Wisconsin 55

Nathan Enderle, Idaho 54

Jake Locker, Washington 54

TJ Yates, North Carolina 52

Christian Ponder, Florida St 51

Ricky Stanzi, Iowa 50

Tyrod Taylor, Va Tech 50

Greg McElroy, Alabama Did not throw

Blaine Gabbert, Missouri Did not throw



John Skelton 2010

YEAR: 2010

Levi Brown, Troy 56

Colt McCoy, Texas 56 (Did not throw at Combine. Throw was recorded at a private workout with a Radar Gun & Computer Chip in Ball.

Max Hall, BYU 52

Tim Hiller, Western Michigan 52

Michael Kafka, Northwestern 52

Zac Robinson, Oklahoma St. 52

Jevan Snead, Mississippi 52

Sean Canfield, Oregon St. 51

Jarrett Brown, West Virginia 50

John Skelton, Fordham 50

Dan LeFevour, Central Michigan 49

Tony Pike, Cincinnati 49

Armanti Edwards, Appalachian St. 46.5

Sam Bradford, Oklahoma Did not throw

Jimmy Clausen,Notre Dame Did not throw

Jonathan Crompton, Tennessee Did not throw

Tim Tebow, Florida Did not throw



Josh Freeman 2009

YEAR: 2009

John Wilson Parker, Alabama 58

Mike Reilly, Central Washington 58

Drew Willy, Buffalo 58

Mark Sanchez, Southern Cal 57

Josh Freeman, Kansas State 57

Chase Daniels, Missouri 57

Nate Davis, Ball State 56

Curtis Painter, Purdue 56

Rhett Bomar, Sam Houston State 55

Tom Brandstetter, Fresno State 53

Cullen Harper, Clemson 53

Stephen McGee, Texas A & M 53

Graham Harrell, Texas Tech 52

Pat White, West Virginia 52

Matt Stafford, Georgia Did not throw



Joe Flacco 2008

YEAR 2008:

Paul Smith, Tulsa 57

Joe Flacco, Delaware 55

Kevin O’Connell, San Diego St 55

Brian Brohm, Louisville 53

Chad Henne, Michigan 53

Erik Ainge, Tennessee 52

John David Booty, Southern Cal 51

Matt Flynn, LSU 50

Josh Johnson, San Diego 49

Colt Brennan, Hawaii 44

Dennis Dixon, Oregon Did not throw

Matt Ryan, Boston College Did not throw

Andre Woodson, Kentucky Did not throw

I'm pretty sure I could hit any of those guys. I hit the ball really well in the 68 MPH batting cage at Swings 'n Things all the time, no problem.



PS - thanks for info - good post.

See.. Colt is up there w/ the best..

Just here to spread the truth.. Don't forget he was coming off nerve damage and rehab. His Arm is much stronger and the zip was very noticeable last year. Anytime Fans around here want a new QB, they tend to exaggerate some..