Has the CBA been discussed in relation to this at all? It would seem to me a team giving a player $50 or whatever for a performance bonus that isn't part of their contract would be violating the CBA and the parity the NFL is trying to strive for.
Quote: Your stance is akin to someone being caught hiring a hitman, and since he didn't actually carry out the hit....the penalty should be much less severe.
I believe if you look at the law, attempted murder for hire carries a much less severe penalty than premediated murder.
So in fact, the penalty is already less severe. In Kentucky the maximum is 20 years.
Quote: Has the CBA been discussed in relation to this at all? It would seem to me a team giving a player $50 or whatever for a performance bonus that isn't part of their contract would be violating the CBA and the parity the NFL is trying to strive for.
I think there is a lot of confusion on this to a great extent. The NFLPA seems to think that the CBA began when it was signed. That it does not include "retroactive" incidents that happened before the CBA was signed.
I mean when you sign a contract, that contract usually begins the day it was signed, not three years earlier.
The NFL disagrees and feels they can go back years and enforce an agreement that hadn't been signed until years later from my understanding.
I'm not a lawyer and have no idea who is right about that. But obviously there are two sets of lawyers that have a completly different understanding on this issue.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: Your stance is akin to someone being caught hiring a hitman, and since he didn't actually carry out the hit....the penalty should be much less severe.
I believe if you look at the law, attempted murder for hire carries a much less severe penalty than premediated murder.
So in fact, the penalty is already less severe. In Kentucky the maximum is 20 years.
If it is the team giving the money, it could be argued that it is a violation of the salary cap rules.
If it is only players paying into a pool that is paid out to players, then I would suspect that it could NOT be argued that way for a couple of reasons: 1. both parties are on the same side of the CBA agreement 2. it is just a shuffling/redistribution of funds of money that has already been accounted for under the cap
If coaches paid into it, then you'd be back to being able to make the argument that it is a salary cap violation as there is now more "compensation" going into the hands of players... however, the salary cap is an agreement between the League/owners and the NFLPA. I don't think that the coaches are a member of either party; if so you could easily make the defense that it does NOT violate the cap.
In essence, there's probably more gray area in there than anyone wants to play with right now.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
You know, I could see that as a possibilty as it pertains to salary cap violations. As far as it not being reported. Since most teams only spend a part of the cap, I would doubt such a program would cause a team to exceed the salary cap due to it.
But I do believe it all has to be reported. That would be a violation I believe. I haven't heard the NFL attempt to claim that in any way, but you do bring up an interesting point......
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Again, the "every team has to report it" thing is potentially another gray area.
What do they specifically have to report? Salaries and bonuses? Bingo, they've got that covered. If this isn't official, team-sanctioned payouts coming from the team and showing up on the team books, then why would they have to report something they aren't officially part of?
It's all gray area, and it seems like Goodell has his hands full with this mess as it is without spilling yet another can of worms into it.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Pit, all I am saying is 5k is 5K...I don't care who you are.
The point made on Woody is both he and Spikes put a choke hold on a player.
Regrettable indeed, but to make that the focus of the Gators being a dirty, cheating team...I'd just say the team in Columbus has had a few problems over the last few years, and you did look to a Gator to salvage the program.
Any player who tries to hurt other players should be banned from the league.
Here is the cheap shot artist #5, just above the Assassin.
And here he talks about bounties....I agree, it's nothing new. It's just something the league is cracking down on.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I did it to highlight your bias against anything Ohio State Buckeyes...such as Jack Tatum.
Quote: Regrettable indeed, but to make that the focus of the Gators being a dirty, cheating team...I'd just say the team in Columbus has had a few problems over the last few years, and you did look to a Gator to salvage the program.
peen...Urban Meyer, was born and bred a Ohio State Buckeye, with his first college coaching experience was with "the" Ohio State Buckeyes, under Earle Bruce.
Meyer was born in Toledo and played his high school ball in Ohio, at Ashtabula's St John HS. Meyer played and graduated from the University of Cincinnati and coached HS ball at Xavier HS in Cincinnati. Urban Meyer got his first college head coaching job at BGSU, in Bowling Green, Ohio...which is where I first saw Urban Meyer coach...you could tell then he was going to be something special.
You see Peen, Florida borrowed Urban Meyer for a few years, but now, Meyer is back home, coaching "the" Ohio State Buckeyes.
Quote: Any player who tries to hurt other players should be banned from the league.
peen...how out of touch with "real football" can you be?
Playing football is not for everyone. Those who don't like to be hit or are afraid of getting hurt should not play football. If you can't bring yourself to run, tackle and block as hard as you, knowing those on the receiving end might be hurt or that you might be hurt, you should not play football.
Peen...you really enjoy watching football, don't you? ...you are like most Americans who enjoy watching the game of football, making it America's #1 viewed sport. ...most viewers enjoy the rough, physical nature of the game. Many fans relate to the toughness of those who play the game...those who hand out the punishment. We love to see RBs put their heads down and deliver a hit to gain that extra yard and pancake blocks are celebrated too. ...defensive players are renowned for their hard hitting and I don't know of one fan who is not pumped up when they watch a big hit...we Americans just love to see the hitting.
BUT, if we "banned" every player who wanted to hurt the opposing player he was tackling, blocking or trying to run over..."peen" wouldn't have any football to watch.
Peen...how hypocritical can a football fan be?...you enjoy watching the game of football with all of that violence and hard hitting but if a football player tries to hit so hard to cause injury to another player, they should be "banned".
Real football is like this...most football players hit, block, tackle as hard as they can and if the opponent is hurt as a result, so be it...injuries are part of the game. Players will talk about hurting their opponent and try to con everyone into believing they can hurt other players whenever they want.
The truth is, no player can dial up an injury to their opponent whenever they want. Most injuries are just pure and simple a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the injured player being unlucky.
...creating fear in your opponent is part of the mental side of the game and whether a player "talks it" or tries to deliver a hit that causes pain, the goal is to get inside the head of your opponent, causing them to fear you.
Bottom line...this idea that a player should never think about hurting another player or try to hit so hard they hurt another player...that is pure horse manure from fantasy land.
Quote: Pit, all I am saying is 5k is 5K...I don't care who you are.
Yes it is. And to someone who has next to nothing,5k is a huge reward for taking a gamble for they have little to nothing to lose.
To someone whose contract is worth millions, 5k is a very small reward in comparison for risking being suspended.
As you well know, those with very little see 5k as much more than someone who is wealthy. Especially in terms that the NFL minimum salary is 340k this year.
To suggest that someone commanding a 340k salary would be willing to risk 3 or more weeks of pay to cheat over 5k would indicate they are dirty players anyway. With or without the 5k.
Sorry, but a homeless person with no job, no transportation or income is far more likely to be tempted by 5k than a person with 5 cars, a 300k home and full cupboards.
So yes, 5k is 5k, but I think you're quite aware that ones place in life has a large bearing on just how willing they would be to do something crooked to get it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I did it to highlight your bias against anything Ohio State Buckeyes...such as Jack Tatum.
Quote: Regrettable indeed, but to make that the focus of the Gators being a dirty, cheating team...I'd just say the team in Columbus has had a few problems over the last few years, and you did look to a Gator to salvage the program.
peen...Urban Meyer, was born and bred a Ohio State Buckeye, with his first college coaching experience was with "the" Ohio State Buckeyes, under Earle Bruce.
Meyer was born in Toledo and played his high school ball in Ohio, at Ashtabula's St John HS. Meyer played and graduated from the University of Cincinnati and coached HS ball at Xavier HS in Cincinnati. Urban Meyer got his first college head coaching job at BGSU, in Bowling Green, Ohio...which is where I first saw Urban Meyer coach...you could tell then he was going to be something special.
You see Peen, Florida borrowed Urban Meyer for a few years, but now, Meyer is back home, coaching "the" Ohio State Buckeyes.
Quote: Any player who tries to hurt other players should be banned from the league.
peen...how out of touch with "real football" can you be?
Playing football is not for everyone. Those who don't like to be hit or are afraid of getting hurt should not play football. If you can't bring yourself to run, tackle and block as hard as you, knowing those on the receiving end might be hurt or that you might be hurt, you should not play football.
Peen...you really enjoy watching football, don't you? ...you are like most Americans who enjoy watching the game of football, making it America's #1 viewed sport. ...most viewers enjoy the rough, physical nature of the game. Many fans relate to the toughness of those who play the game...those who hand out the punishment. We love to see RBs put their heads down and deliver a hit to gain that extra yard and pancake blocks are celebrated too. ...defensive players are renowned for their hard hitting and I don't know of one fan who is not pumped up when they watch a big hit...we Americans just love to see the hitting.
BUT, if we "banned" every player who wanted to hurt the opposing player he was tackling, blocking or trying to run over..."peen" wouldn't have any football to watch.
Peen...how hypocritical can a football fan be?...you enjoy watching the game of football with all of that violence and hard hitting but if a football player tries to hit so hard to cause injury to another player, they should be "banned".
Real football is like this...most football players hit, block, tackle as hard as they can and if the opponent is hurt as a result, so be it...injuries are part of the game. Players will talk about hurting their opponent and try to con everyone into believing they can hurt other players whenever they want.
The truth is, no player can dial up an injury to their opponent whenever they want. Most injuries are just pure and simple a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the injured player being unlucky.
...creating fear in your opponent is part of the mental side of the game and whether a player "talks it" or tries to deliver a hit that causes pain, the goal is to get inside the head of your opponent, causing them to fear you.
Bottom line...this idea that a player should never think about hurting another player or try to hit so hard they hurt another player...that is pure horse manure from fantasy land.
Mac.....keep your replies top about 20 words....I don't waste my time after that.
I don't have a bias against OSU....I liked Tatum in college....Stillwagon was great, Sensibaugh, Colzy, Roman....I root for the Buckeyes, except when they play the Gators of course. I don't apologize for that. I am sure you root for the team of the college you attended, as does everybody else. It's the way it works.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Quote: To someone whose contract is worth millions, 5k is a very small reward in comparison for risking being suspended.
A game ball is worth about $40... but players love the recognition... Getting that $5K is a recognition that you were willing to do what you were told to try to win the game.. and if that something was an illegal or borderline illegal hit, then I could see them doing it, not for the $5k per se but for the recognition that you were the one that did it.
When I ran my restaurant, I would sometimes have contests for service times, and other criteria we were judged on.
I would have a challenge between lunch shift, dinner shift, and late night shift.
I would give each member of the winning shift a free sandwich.
The kids that worked for me loved it. They would run their butts off for their entire shift just to win the contest .... and one free sandwich.
I do think that it is as much about winning as it is about a reward .... but people really respond to a combination of both.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
To suggest that 5k is some huge enhancement as to get a person with any sense of morals and character to "play dirty", especially considering they in no way need that money is absurd to begin with.
YTown pointed out something "legal and moral" that his workers "worked hard for". But it was in no way anything unethical.
One thing so many people refuse to include into the discussion, is that many legal plays that helped the team were also given incentive bonuses for.
Quote: The players, however, have claimed they never sought or accepted rewards for injuring opponents. Fujita has said the NFL grossly mischaracterized what was an informal accountability program for teammates to reward one another for big plays such as sacks, forced fumbles and interceptions, something players on many teams have taken part in for years.
A defenders job is to hit their oponent with as much force as possible. To strike fear into their oponent. This will result in injuries and cart offs which will result in players missing plays and being knocked out of games.
When and if any real evidence is brought forth that "any player of the Saints was actually trying to injur someone to collect a bounty" is brought forth, I would gladly accept "that or those players and the coaches who instituted this program" be punished.
At this time I see a lot of players being punished for following their bosses instructions and going along with what their bosses initiated.
Once again I point to the rule of law, an accessory after the fact holds a much lower penalty.
I was taught a long time ago that the term "a lot of money" depends on how much money you have. A "game ball" as you have suggested, is a matter of pride in having played well and earning it. Not in playing dirty and cheating.
Just as a sandwich for a hard, honest days work is a symbol of working hard, not cheating. There really is no comparison there.....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
when your DC is detailing the injuries that each player currently has in a pregame speech and you have incentives geared towards cart-offs, then I think it's pretty clear there is malicious intent.
Quote: To suggest that 5k is some huge enhancement as to get a person with any sense of morals and character to "play dirty", especially considering they in no way need that money is absurd to begin with.
1. I never said the $5K was the big enhancement.. in fact I said just the opposite. 2. We aren't talking about players with morals and character.. yes some players have it, some don't. It only takes one without it to take a cheap shot to try to get on the good side of his teammates and coaches to ruin another guys career.
Quote: One thing so many people refuse to include into the discussion, is that many legal plays that helped the team were also given incentive bonuses for.
I don't care. I drive a lot, sometimes under and sometimes over the speed limit.. the fact that I drive under the speed limit sometimes doesn't make it any less illegal when I do drive over the speed limit.
Quote: When and if any real evidence is brought forth that "any player of the Saints was actually trying to injur someone to collect a bounty" is brought forth, I would gladly accept "that or those players and the coaches who instituted this program" be punished.
If anybody ever participated in such a program and collected the money for the cartoff (SPECIFICALLY for the cartoff), then that is proof.
Quote: I was taught a long time ago that the term "a lot of money" depends on how much money you have. A "game ball" as you have suggested, is a matter of pride in having played well and earning it. Not in playing dirty and cheating.
$5K is a matter of pride too if you earned it by doing what the coach wanted, which was to knock somebody out of the game.
Quote: when your DC is detailing the injuries that each player currently has in a pregame speech and you have incentives geared towards cart-offs, then I think it's pretty clear there is malicious intent.
There again, I see those coaches that were involved to be the major issue here. I have no disagreement with that at all......
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: when your DC is detailing the injuries that each player currently has in a pregame speech and you have incentives geared towards cart-offs, then I think it's pretty clear there is malicious intent.
There again, I see those coaches that were involved to be the major issue here. I have no disagreement with that at all......
I agree and that is why Gregg Williams will likely never coach again. And Payton is gone for a true year (rather than a season like Vilma). And the GM is gone half a year. And the owner got a hefty fine.
But, players are supposed to respect each other and be looking out for each other as well. If Vilma and the players got together and went to Goodell with this, then I think they should be spared penalty. However, it took a disgruntled coach and a disgruntled team (Vikings) to re-open up an investigation that the NFL thought it had closed.
Quote: 2. We aren't talking about players with morals and character.. yes some players have it, some don't. It only takes one without it to take a cheap shot to try to get on the good side of his teammates and coaches to ruin another guys career.
And as I have shown in a a few videos already in this thread, players that don't, play dirty all across this league. We both know several players in this league that have been fined and are well known as cheap shot artists that have zero ties with the Saints.
While we both agree that 5k is very little as an incentive, I suppose our only bone of contention here, is that I believe any dirty player on the Saints roster would play the same with our without the 5k.
Quote:
I don't care. I drive a lot, sometimes under and sometimes over the speed limit.. the fact that I drive under the speed limit sometimes doesn't make it any less illegal when I do drive over the speed limit.
You are 100% correct. But just how much of the time you follow the law and how much you don't is very indicative of just how much you are a safe driver or a dangerous driver.
That's the entire "big picture thing" I was trying to get people to look at. I haven't had a ticket in 7 or 8 years. When I recieved my last citation I hadn't had a ticket in 17 years. I haven't been involved in an accident in about 28 years.
Do I ever speed? Yes I do. But when looking at a comparison of drivers overall, the record indicates I am a very good driver with an overall excellent record.
Just like when you compare the Saints record against the rest of the league, eacch year since 2009, they ranked lower and lower in penalties that you would associate with "playing dirty".
Quote:
If anybody ever participated in such a program and collected the money for the cartoff (SPECIFICALLY for the cartoff), then that is proof.
I would agree once again. I would agree that it would be proof that the DC set up and proceeded with an illegal program and should be made accountable of it.
Quote: $5K is a matter of pride too if you earned it by doing what the coach wanted, which was to knock somebody out of the game.
I actually think we already covered that. If a player is by nature a dirty player, he would take pride in that. If in fact a player is someone "with morals and character" as we have discussed, I don't believe they would in any way take pride in that at all.
If you were talking about high school kids, I may agree that some type of peer pressure may apply. But we are talking about professional players who are grown men and have their own set of morals and beliefs of what is right or wrong.
That being said, I always took pride in hitting hard and striking fear into my oponents. I would never have taken pride in intentionaly injuring someone as a result of playing to the best of my abilities.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: Mac.....keep your replies to about 20 words....I don't waste my time after that.
peen...that explains a lot..
...such as why someone would make such a ridiculous comment such as this..
"Any player who tries to hurt other players should be banned from the league."
Anyone with an attention span limited to 20 words...cannot be taught or educated...some know football and some think they know football.
Please Mac. Don't talk to me about can't be taught or educated....I have had plenty of that...what I am saying is I don't read your crap after about 20 words. That is about as far in as it goes before you repeat the same stuff or start to copy and paste the usual stuff.
You're a good guy in my opinion, it's why I don't just "Ignore" you, but you make it hard sometimes.
This last post is a example. You are boring Mac, you don't entertain anybody but yourself. You primarily insult people when they disagree.
Yep Mac, I am a dummy who can't read 21 words....
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Quote: But, players are supposed to respect each other and be looking out for each other as well.
I do agree that players are supposed to respect each other and look out for each other. I believe by and large Saints players did that. As has been shown statisticly earlier in this thread, hits and penalties by the Saints that would seem to indicate a possible intent to injur someone ranked lower in the league each year since 2009. Until they ranked in the mid to late 20's in the league on such violations.
Quote: If Vilma and the players got together and went to Goodell with this, then I think they should be spared penalty.
While to some extent I agree with you, looking at it from a career standpoint I do not think this was an option one could seriously entertain.
Firstly, your career would be over with the Saints. Secondly, I would feel that if you did this, many teams coaching staffs would feel you were not to be trusted and could very well have a serious impact on your ability to be signed on some other teams. Probably many of them.
So while it would be a very noble and proper thing to do, to a great extent I would consider it "career suicude" to one degree or another. Many here who know the game well, maybe even you as well, know that such programs did and have been going on for decades or longer.
Being known as a "whistle blower" across the league wouldn't be doing your career any favors. As such, I think each player taking personal responsability as to how they played on the field would have been far more reasonable and expected of them.
Quote: However, it took a disgruntled coach and a disgruntled team (Vikings) to re-open up an investigation that the NFL thought it had closed.
Yes it did, Just as with "Spygate" and I didn't see players that knew about that and didn't report it as being brought into the mix on that one.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: Yep Mac, I am a dummy who can't read 21 words....
You know Peen...... I always felt more highly of you than that. For you to come forth with this admission...... Well, to say I'm disapointed would be a gross understatement....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: Yep Mac, I am a dummy who can't read 21 words....
You know Peen...... I always felt more highly of you than that. For you to come forth with this admission...... Well, to say I'm disapointed would be a gross understatement....
Sorry to let you down
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Quote: However, it took a disgruntled coach and a disgruntled team (Vikings) to re-open up an investigation that the NFL thought it had closed.
Yes it did, Just as with "Spygate" and I didn't see players that knew about that and didn't report it as being brought into the mix on that one.
we are going to agree to disagree largely on this topic, but do you think that Belichick involved players in his scheme? players who constantly switch teams like they do? the players interviewed about it seemed genuinely shocked about it (or were pretending, but there is a huge difference between knowing the players were involved and supposing it when they very well could have been in the dark).
I do think if your coach keeps calling the exact defense to offset their every play, told or not, you know. And if every time their D calls a play an exact play is called to offset it you know.
And I certainly think your QB if nobody else, is informed of exactly what they are going to do on D based on recent information the coaching staff has attained to "know all of their defensive plays".
Also I think it would be foolish not to think that whoever is in charge of changing the D shifts on the field isn't aware that somehow their coaching staff isn't doing something to know every new play the oponent is going to call.
Point being, since spygate, the Patriots have only made it to one SB and lost that game. How ell does that compare to pre-2008?
If the commish is all that concerned about "the integrity of the game", there is far more evidence that spygate hurt the NFL's reputation than bountygate.
Yet the punishment doesn't reflect that.
Which has pretty much been my point all along. The Patriots dominated the game, in what appears from the evidence to be a total cheating against their oponents. Once that advantage was taken from them, not so much.
While both were wrong, there is a direct link in cause and effect to spygate, yet no real cause and effect to bountygate.
When the punishment does not fit the crime someone should at least recognize it IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: Actually, I think that is cheating.. I don't believe the rules say it's OK to purposely inflict game, year or career ending injuries.
Question....... If someone is hurt by playing within the confines of the rules, are they "intentionaly hurting someone", or is the result of following the current rules means that sometimes players will get hurt?
Is there any evidence that any Saints players "tried to intentionaly hurt anyone"? Wouldn't, if you answer yes, feel that many playres in this league such as Su, Harrison and Fairly are no less guilty of this behavior?
There are penalties and fines for such things and the Saints rate very low in those categories in the league. I feel there are at the very least a few teams and many players around this league that play FAR dirtier than the Saints do if that's the point you're attempting to make.
In 2011, Oakland created the most injuries with 97. Baltimore created 90. The Saints ranked 11th with 73.
So if we can peel ourselves away from the perception and look at the reality, the Saints aren't the "king of injuries" as some wish to make this out to be.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I'm not trying to say the Patriots suck or anything. But with a cheating advantage, they won 3 SB's in 4 years. Without it, they've made 2 appearances since losing both.
How odd it is that after being proven they cheated to gain an unfair advantage on their oponents, the HC nor the GM were suspended for even one game?
The balance of power was shifted toward NE for the first half of the last decade without any suspensions even after it was proven they were cheating.
My question is which Saints players, if any, were actually paid for a cart off injury? Which Saints players were paid for game ending inuries?
Once again, I think the coaching staff is wrong and should be severely punished for instituting such a program. Yet I haven't seen anyone was actually paid for such things.
So why the discrepancy in punishment here? You honestly think that the NFL isn't concerned about the upcoming concussion lawsuit and is using this as a legal tactic to some extent?
When so many millions were actually paid out to NE players and coaches in endorsement deals when their cheating was proven, yet no suspensions were levied?
If as has been stated by Goodell that he is concerned with "the integrity of the game", it would seem either the penalty on the Patriots was far too light, or the penalties imposed on the Saints was far too severe.
Seems like a huge contrast to me.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: So why the discrepancy in punishment here? You honestly think that the NFL isn't concerned about the upcoming concussion lawsuit and is using this as a legal tactic to some extent?
no, I do fully believe the NFL is covering their behind about not only the concussion lawsuit, but injury lawsuits as well. it doesn't excuse the acts.
and, I do think Belichick and the Patriots should have been more severely punished (they did lose a 1st round pick too).
however, I also do think that a program designed to intentionally injure is a worse crime than one designed to steal signals.
I first thought it wasn't a program designed to INTENTIONALLY injure someone.
Just that if you laid a nice hit on someone, and they left the game, you got a bonus.
Then Greg Williams pregame speech against SF came out.
Clearly, he had other intentions (And if he EVER coaches in the NFL again I'll be surprised)
So obviously this was all Williams original plan, but Pit, you can not deny the players involvment, they weren't sheep being lead by Williams, they were active participants. Celebrating winning money when Favre left the NFC title game...
And part of me thinks the NFL doesn't want ALL of the evidence to come out, because they just want it to go away, not in a sweeping it under the rug way, but they just want to move on and get people thinking positive about the NFL again.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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