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At the end of the day, it comes down to talent evaluation, and the Indians' front office just isn't very good at it.
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Depends on the owner. If you get a guy with really deep pockets who pledges to boost the payroll up to the luxury tax limit to retain talented players and/or attract key FA pieces, that would probably make a big difference in both the roster and the fan's attitude. The problem is, where can you find that kind of owner?  People forget that the Tribe actually DID pay a little over $2 million in luxury tax in 1997 (under the original luxury tax provision). So, old-timers can remember a time when we had a relatively deep-pocketed owner. 
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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Quote:
At the end of the day, it comes down to talent evaluation, and the Indians' front office just isn't very good at it.
Yup. I have said it a few other times. For all the ripping that certain Tribe fans (who hate the Browns) for people "blindly" rooting for a perennial 4-12 team, it's pretty hilarious how Mark Shapiro and Chris Antonetti skate on EVERYTHING.
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Hey, you got something against Brent Lillibridge?   lol Gotta laugh or we might cry.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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For more laughs, go over to Youtube and search "Mike Polk / What If". I'd post it but there's some masked F-bombs in it.
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Legend
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After Thursday, we can all flip on NFL Network any time we want (sorry TWC customers) and watch re-runs of all the preseason games.
It's amazing how driven away from the sport of baseball I have been. I'd rather watch crappy preseason football.
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Legend
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Quote:
Depends on the owner. If you get a guy with really deep pockets who pledges to boost the payroll up to the luxury tax limit to retain talented players and/or attract key FA pieces, that would probably make a big difference in both the roster and the fan's attitude. The problem is, where can you find that kind of owner?
if we sold out every game, then he'd lose $100mil per year doing that.
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Hey atleast were not the Rockies or Astro's......
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Hey atleast were not the Rockies or Astro's......
i'd say the Astros at least have the potential to build something and become a large market team (due to Houston being so big).
the Rockies are pretty much up the creek. pitchers just don't seem to be able to last up there (there was a study a few years ago about the effects of the thin air on the recovery time of pitchers, etc.)
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the Rockies are pretty much up the creek. pitchers just don't seem to be able to last up there (there was a study a few years ago about the effects of the thin air on the recovery time of pitchers, etc.)
Not to mention, what pitcher would want to pitch where ordinary fly balls turn into homeruns? Coors field is almost always near the top of the list for homeruns...
"Hey, you are the top free agent pitcher, come here and you're ERA will go up 1.5 runs." Sounds like a great sales pitch to me.
yebat' Putin
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"Hey, you are the top free agent pitcher, come here and you're ERA will go up 1.5 runs." Sounds like a great sales pitch to me.
I think that was probabaly the justification for getting Ubaldo. Get him out of Coors field, and his pretty good ERA will drop even further. I donno, maybe he needs less air resistance to throw faster or something?
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Wow... we're giving away games now. Three errors. Another blown save. Good grief... 
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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I really believe these guys threw in the towel, when they seen the trading deadline come and go, and we didn't improve the club. I've watched most of the year, and they were never this bad.. I might not like what perez said, but he is right about good players not wanting to come here. Dolan has literally made Cleveland the siberia of mlb. I can't see how Acta, Antonnetti, and Shipiro keep their jobs.. We're suppose to be in our"window", and right now we're on track to finish in last place.. Maybe we need to get Belcher out of retirement to help with the pitching staff.. So much for Radinsky becoming a rising star in the game.. The guy has been a disaster as our pitching coach.
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Radinsky should be fired tomorrow for our pitching this season (every single pitcher is worse than 2011)
Acta should be fired for the team quitting
Antonetti should be fired for putting the flawed team together
and then we can work from there
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I'm not usually one to demand so many heads at once, but I gotta agree with you guys on this one. This is the second year in a row we've seen this pattern of play from this team (this year may be even worse before it is all said and done). I think it is time to start over from the GM on down to the coaching staff. This just isn't working. 
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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i'm usually among the last to want to fire people. but, i'm trying to find the positive things Antonetti has done in his tenure. the solid pieces he has brought in that will help us in the future.
Lead scout Bud Grant's performance can be evaluated by the next GM (he focused on HS players with huge upsides, so it's hard to judge his '08-12 drafts yet).
But, every single trade that Antonetti touches seems to fail. Every single FA signing seems to underwhelm even modest expectations. Shapiro had his hits and misses, but at least had a bunch of hits.
I do feel bad for Acta. He's been given a tough task in Washington and here. But, the team is obviously not responding to him right now and he couldn't figure out a way to stem the tide last year either. A new GM is going to want a new manager and there is nothing that is so superb about Acta that makes me want to keep him.
Radinsky I am just completely frustrated with. I didn't think it was even possible for every single pitcher that he touches to regress. But, that is exactly what has happened this year with our staff.
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Rather than talk about who should go, it might be easier to decide who stays. Assuming we won't be getting new ownership, I would be in favor of blowing up the front office entirely, the whole "Shaponetti". Acta and coaching staff should go. I might consider Sandy Alomar to manage, but I'd prefer Tony Pena.
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I find it hard to put a ton of fault on Acta and the coaching staff, because this just is not a talented baseball team. Obviously the coaching staff is not without fault, but we want to bang on them when they've got triple-A guys in three of the spots in their rotation (and average at best pitchers in the other two) and guys like Hanahan and Kotchman at the corner infield positions? They're playing the hand that they've been dealt.
People buy too much into some notion that the Indians are a bunch of talented players who are just underachieving, but that's not the case. I don't know if it's because they've started out pretty well the past couple seasons or what, but it's there. Folks need to face the fact that outside of Choo, Cabrera, Perez and maybe Kipnis, the Indians are a bad ball club, and it's going to stay that way until there's an infusion of real talent (which may or may not ever come).
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yeah, like I said, I feel bad for Acta. but, if we sign a new GM, then he'll want to hire his own manager and there isn't anything with Acta that I can point to that would make me want to stomp my feet to keep him.
now Radinsky, on the other hand, he should be fired today. every single pitcher is worse this year from last year.
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Tomlin looks to have gotten worse. Pestano and Perez have been better this year. Everybody else is about the same...everyone that was even around last year, at least. And before you mention Masterson, his numbers last year compared with his career numbers indicate that last year was the exception, not the rule. He's an average pitcher that the Indians are trying to turn into an ace, kind of like when Jake Westbrook was our "ace" after we unloaded CC and Lee. Firing Radinsky will be about as effective as when we fired the hitting coach last year.
Last year the excuse was injuries, but with a very similar roster this year it's clear that the real reason is talent. And if Shapinetti fire the coaching staff that does nothing but make them hypocrites in the worst way. A new GM coming in and cleaning house is one thing, but our horrible front office making scapegoats of the coaches is unacceptable.
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I agree on Masterson and stated the same above. Was hoping that 2011 was progression, but it seems like it was an aberration.
However, I disagree with the pitchers pitching about the same. Relief pitchers sample sizes are too small (and recent Perez performances are going to throw those off a ton, no?), but starters are all considerably worse:
FIP 2011 vs. 2012
Masterson 3.28 - 4.02
Ubaldo 3.85 - 5.14
Tomlin 4.27 - 4.89
J.Gomez 4.12 - 5.14
Lowe 3.70 - 4.48
McAllister 3.37 - 3.75
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I'm not a sabermetrician and I'm not inclined to check out all the numbers at this point, but in watching the games, they look a lot like what we saw last year, by and large. I'm also personally not necessarily in favor of the defense-independent evaluation because I don't think fielding can or should be entirely removed from the equation. But that's just me. In any case, I don't think the pitching has gotten noticeably worse, as you do, because I don't think it was that great to begin with and I feel you tend to overvalue the Indians' players in terms of talent in these discussions (and I also concede that I probably tend to take a pessimistic view of the roster).
It should be noted that of the pitchers you listed, only Masterson and Tomlin pitched the majority of both seasons with Cleveland.
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I agree, I try to take the sunnyside on Cleveland sports teams. No doubt about it.
On Masterson/Tomlin being the only pitchers who spent the majority w/ Cleveland last year, I actually think that makes it just as incriminating to Radinsky. No matter who the pitching coach was for any of the pitchers, they all did better last year without him as their pitching coach.
On the rotation, I have put my feelings out there on how I feel they shape-up long-term and that hasn't changed too much (other than Masterson who I've gone a bit more down on after the last month or so).
Masterson - 2011 looking like aberration year, so he's likely around a SP3 for a good team.
Ubaldo - 2012 is the aberration via peripherals (well, 1st half of 2010 is the good aberration). He also looks like a SP3 for a good team if he can get back to where he was.
Carmona-Hernandez - looked like he had lost it last year, reports of him getting lit up in the minors not boding well for him "finding it"
Tomlin - league figured him out, he hasn't been able to adjust. borderline SP5 if he can progress.
McAllister - sadly, I don't think he can ever be better than a SP4. but, he's a rock solid SP5 guy.
J.Gomez - like Tomlin/Huff, he's a guy who'll be fighting to prove he's worth a spot in a rotation his entire career.
Carrasco - I really like him. I think he can progress to a SP3, but he's only been a SP4/5 guy so far in his career.
Lowe - he's gone now. he's not coming back.
Kluber - the only high-level SP we have who could progress to anything more than an injury replacement. and, he hasn't exactly looked very good in this first stint.
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Sweet, we just released the 'must have' guy in the Cliff Lee trade.  Quote:
Tribe releases Jason Knapp, key piece in 2009 Cliff Lee trade: Indians Insider
Published: Wednesday, August 08, 2012, 5:15 PM Updated: Wednesday, August 08, 2012, 5:33 PM
By Paul Hoynes, The Plain Dealer
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The key to the Cliff Lee trade is gone.
The Indians released minor-league right-hander Jason Knapp on Wednesday. Knapp was one of four players the Indians received from the Phillies for the former Cy Young winner on July 29, 2009. The Indians said they would not have made the trade unless Knapp, 18 at the time, was included.
Knapp was on the disabled list at the time. The Indians thought the injury was biceps tendinitis, but it turned out to be much worse. He underwent two operations and never pitched above Class A ball before his release.
"We just got to the point with Jason where we felt that it was in his best interest and our best interest for us to part ways," said Ross Atkins, the Indians' director of minor-league development. "He has done on his part to try and recover from two shoulder surgeries, but we're at the point where we feel it's best for him to continue his life, in whatever avenue he chooses, and to clear his mind and think about it not as a Cleveland Indian, but as an individual, as Jason Knapp."
The 6-5, 242-pound Knapp was the Phillies' second-round pick in 2008. He has not pitched competitively for two years. He made four starts for Class A Lake County at the end of the 2010 season, going 1-0 with a 3.94 ERA. He struck out 29 and walked eight in 16 innings.
Knapp underwent his first shoulder surgery shortly after the 2009 trade that also brought the Indians infielder Jason Donald, catcher Lou Marson and right-hander Carlos Carrasco. He underwent a second surgery on June 14, 2011.
Marson is the only player on the Tribe's big-league roster from that deal. Donald is at Class AAA Columbus, while Carrasco is recovering from Tommy John surgery on his right elbow.
Lee is 38-27 with Philadelphia, Seattle and Texas since the trade. He's pitched in the World Series with the Phillies in 2009 and the Rangers in 2010.
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yep, and he was never fully healthy for us. great to get damaged goods and not have demanded a MRI of a guy on the DL? what the heck were we thinking?
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Quote:
what the heck were we thinking?
That we were going to save a bunch of money.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
what the heck were we thinking?
"Gotta get rid of Cliff ASAP...only two years before he walks and we get nothing!"
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Quote:
Quote:
what the heck were we thinking?
That we were going to save a bunch of money.
that's not true though. the real way to save $$$ in MLB is to have a whole bunch of good young players come up at the same time. so, you really want to hit on the prospects you get back because those are your cheap players.
otherwise, you are stuck picking up $7mil options on the Carmona-Hernandez type players and trading for $5mil on the contract of a guy like Lowe.
Strasburg who gets paid as much as any young MLBer for his draft year (as the #1 overall pick) is making $4.8mil this year.
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Went to the game with a few buddies. Had a good time watching the Tribe win but we were talking about how much talent we let walk away and it's depressing.
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You got your wish, no_logo. Tribe fired Scott Radinsky today.
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You got your wish, no_logo. Tribe fired Scott Radinsky today.
as much as I normally do not cheer for such things and hate for people to lose their jobs...
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Well, when we bring in a new coach next year (or promote the bullpen coach again), and our starters still suck, maybe the message will get through to the FO.
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Well, when we bring in a new coach next year (or promote the bullpen coach again), and our starters still suck, maybe the message will get through to the FO.
I am hoping that Mr. Radinsky is not just the sacrificial lamb and that there will be more gross changes to things coming.
it is possible that the epic collapse of our pitching staff where every single SP that has pitched for the Tribe in 2012 is worse than 2011 no matter where they pitched last year was not the fault of Mr. Radinsky.
however, when you fail at nearly every measurable aspect of your job, even if only for a year, then there will be consequences.
Mr. Antonetti...umm, can you step into Mr. Shapiro's office?
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Obviously he's the scapegoat du jour, just like the hitting coach was last year. Now they've promoted the guy from Columbus. Our pitching prospects lately have done such a great job that I can barely sit still  The only change we're going to see is Manny getting fired at the end of the season and Sandy Alomar getting promoted. He'll have his two-year chance to win 80 games in a season with a bunch of has-been and never-was players, and then the city will be calling for his head too. Shapiro isn't going to fire Antonetti, and Antonetti sure isn't going to fire himself.
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that is all quite possible.
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Do the Indians pick up Ubaldo's $5.75M option next season?
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Do the Indians pick up Ubaldo's $5.75M option next season?
no choice. they have painted themselves into that corner.
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jc...
Manny said yesterday that they need three bats and a starter in order to be able to compete with Detroit and Chicago. Anyone want to bet that he gets them?
The Artist Formerly Known As Fausto is going tonight. Should be a thing of beauty.
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Do the Indians pick up Ubaldo's $5.75M option next season?
no choice. they have painted themselves into that corner.
Why? I am sure we can pitch Huff or Kluber or somebody (anybody) else in his slot and match his 5.62 ERA. Not only do we save money but we get to see if some prospect has what it takes.
I was totally against the Jimenez trade when it happened and still think that it was a ridiculous trade. I would dump Jimenez to whoever is willing to take him. I would be happy getting some low level prospects in return but would probably settle for a dozen baseballs (is that more value than we got for Sabathia or Lee?).
Procrastination is caused by the fear of success
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