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But, we got at least 1 useful piece out of each that we wouldn't have had otherwise (Brantley, Carrasco, Masterson). Choo, Asdrubal, and Santana also were trades.
Brantley: above average
Carrasco: Who knows how he'll be after his surgery
Masterson: so valuable that we're trying to trade him
Choo: very good, and as good as gone
Cabrera: All-Star caliber
Santana: disappointing is the word
plus LaPorta: total bust
That's a pretty sad trade record as far as I'm concerned.
I wouldn't say sad, but just unspectacular.
It's amazing how Shapiro and his people continue to get a free pass every year. Horrible signings, horrible trades, and doing absolutely nothing when the guys you do have are fighting as hard as they can, and the manager seems to be doing what he can, all while keeping a straight face.
I really like Manny Acta, but he's been given a knife for a gun fight.
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... " I really like Manny Acta, but he's been given a knife for a gun fight... "
Had to laugh at that one ; but it is spot on !
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sorry bigdat, but I saw this one coming Quote:
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Just wondering...Why the brake pumping in regards to James McDonald?
he has never been a pitcher who has great control. he's an incredible SO pitcher who lives on the edge of counts and walks a fair share of batters because of it.
this year, his BB/9 has dropped from over 4BB/9 to 2.68BB/9 while maintaining the same SO rate. that's ridiculous. his HR/9 is also stands out as it's dropped to half his normal rate (last year was a ridiculously bad outlier on that one).
now, all that being said, he is "just" 27 years old, so it's possible that he's figured things out. it's just a red flag to me to gain control all of a sudden like that. for your sake, I hope I'm wrong and it's real. Pirate fans could sure use it.
last 4 James McDonald starts:
5IP 5ER 1HR 7BB
6IP 5ER 2HR 3BB
5IP 6ER 2HR 4BB
4.2IP 4ER 1HR 5BB
BBs and HRs up way high after the 1st half where they were ridiculously low (compared to career MLB and MiLB numbers). Just again showing how stat's tend to even out for players to their norms over time.
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When did that exchange take place between us though - early May? It was a long time ago, that's all I know. Dude's had a bad month, I'm not ready to jump off the Clemente Bridge.
And to the poster that said "they better get Marte and a Taillon or Cole" for Choo... c'mon now. Child please.
Last edited by bigdatut; 07/30/12 07:08 PM.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
GO ROCKETS
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"they better get Marte and a Taillon or Cole" for Choo... c'mon now. Child please.
Yeah, no chance Cole and Taillon go anywhere, we could maybe ask for Heredia with Marte, but not sure that would even fly.
I just saw the Pirates moved Lincoln for Travis Snider.
Eat it Phil...
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When did that exchange take place between us though - early May? It was a long time ago, that's all I know. Dude's had a bad month, I'm not ready to jump off the Clemente Bridge.
it was early June and I just noted that his career numbers were out of whack with what he was doing and predicted the current regression. he's not as good as he was from Apr to mid-June. he's not as bad as he's been since mid-June either.
i think the Indians could get 1 of those 3 for Choo (most likely Marte) but 2 would be a bit rich (probably a couple B level pitchers mixed in). the only way to get 2 would be if Pitt panics because they want to make sure they don't miss the playoffs in their best shot at getting there in the last 20+ years.
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Choo has been a premier hitter and the biggest factor in our offense.
What Offense 
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-jc-
The Indians are in a no win (no pun intended) situation.
I don't think they have the horses to win this year and our Farm system is pretty bare of top talent that people want. When we call for a trade people ask for Perez or Choo. Well we would need both of them to make a run.
Since they can't get anyone to help the team then we should be sellers. But the fans are already not showing up the park, Imagine if they do nothing, even worse imagine if they become huge sellers, which would be the right call IMO.
Dolan isn't going to open his check book. We could of had Josh Willingham but they didn't want to spend a 3rd year. How good would his 27HR and .274 BA batting from the right side be on this team right now??? He only wanted the 3rd year guaranteed so he could be a 10/5 guy.
Does anyone expect Dolan to spend any money this off season? They are not going to be able to get anyone of an impact, which means we will slowly but surely drop back in the division. Which means slowly but surely the attendance will get smaller. Less attendance = less money = Dolan's checkbook closed shut.
I'd like them to sell because it is becoming apparent to me that they are not going to win with this group. The only problem is the guys that would be running another rebuild are the same guys that have failed a few times now.
We are going to sit pat and play the season out because that is the least impact on Dolan's wallet. Eventually there will be a tear down but they might string this out a few more seasons before they tap out.
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Choo has been a premier hitter and the biggest factor in our offense.
What Offense
The White Sox scored 6 runs against the Twins last night (in a loss thankfully). The Indians just scored 6 runs total in a three game series against the same Twins. Ugh.
With all the Tribe bashing going on in this thread, some by me, I'd like to point out something....Isn't this team right where we were probably going to be at the start of the season? I mean, did you expect more or less?
Toronto is .500 and are 9 games out of first in the East. The Tribe is 2 games under .500 and only 5 games out (a 5-game win streak could put them in first). Nobody thought the AL Central would be as good as the East or West, but not this bad. This is crazy!
I suppose I would have defined them as buyers after the Detroit series but sellers after the Twins series. But even then, I didn't expect them to buy or sell anything big.
Look at the White Sox. They traded for two big names this season....but they were both stinking up the joint. Youkilis had a junky 2011 and was having a worse 2012 before the trade and Liriano is 3-10 with a 5.something ERA. If the Indians made those trades, the fans would be moaning about trading for high-priced crap. (Youkilis has played decent since the trade. Liriano hasn't pitched yet for the Sox).
I guess what I'm saying, what do you expect? Do you really think this team should be better than what they are right now? Do you really think this team should have been trying to trade for Greinke?
I know there is a lot of animosity towards this team for the trades they've made (CC, Lee, Victor...) but I think I would have done the same thing.
Lee - I get that we could have waited a full season before trading him, but I think they wanted to get more back since he'd be under contract for longer. And heck....counting the season we traded him away, he's only 8 games over .500 since and has been on 5 teams (Cle, Phi, Sea, Tex & Phi again - AND Philly is trying to trade him now). IMO, he was a hot pitcher when we had him and he's been average since.
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With all the Tribe bashing going on in this thread, some by me, I'd like to point out something....Isn't this team right where we were probably going to be at the start of the season? I mean, did you expect more or less?
You can't really look at it like that. Pre-season predictions are always a joke unless you are penciling the Yankees and a few other teams as at least being in the mix all year if not winning their division...
As a Tribe fan, this "window" for winning opens and closes quickly. Right now it's open. It was open last year. Yes some guys will be under contract for some years, but you need a hell of a lot more than a few guys.
They did nothing in the offseason, and nothing during the season to get better. They are wasting time during this "window"
They've treaded water all year. They do the same thing. They lose a few, then come back and win a few, just enough to give you a shred of hope. They win a big series and then go out and get swept by one of the league's worst teams. This has been their M.O. all year. They can't put together any kind of strong run, a big streak, not with that lineup, and most certainly not with inconsistent pitching.
The only thing you can count on is that innings 8 and 9 with a lead are as close to a lock as it gets in baseball, and even then the biggest part of that is a guy who chides fans on twitter and lets them know that they don't pay for his food or the roof over his head.
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Would love to get Masterson back from the Indians 
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As far as I'm concerned, it's not just the moves they didn't make, but the stuff they do that directly contradicts their supposed rationale for not making those moves. Stuff like not signing Willingham citing money and concerns over his back while re-signing Sizemore to a deal that makes him their second highest salary (third if you count the money Atlanta is paying Lowe). Or saying that you'll be buyers at the deadline if you're in it and, now that you are, dangling three of your more important pieces as trade bait. It's like they think that nobody's paying attention to what they're actually doing, not just what they're saying.
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Quote:
Would love to get Masterson back from the Indians
if you had any decent pitching prospects, then we might be able to talk.
we'd want Swihart(C) in any deal (ability to move Santana to 1B since the 1B-FA market isnt' giving us anything we need to do something there)
but, then Raunado and Barnes are your supposed best pitching prospects. I'm not sure I would do the deal for Masterson even if we got all 3 of those guys back
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They dont have much for pitching prospects but I would love to get Bogaerts to play next to Lindor.
Eat it Phil...
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They dont have much for pitching prospects but I would love to get Bogaerts to play next to Lindor.
I don't want to become the new Royals
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They dont have much for pitching prospects but I would love to get Bogaerts to play next to Lindor.
I don't want to become the new Royals
If we are going to actually go out and sign some free agents and fill the holes instead of thinking they will fill themselves from within, then I am all for building onto this core and shooting for this "window" that management said we were playing for.
I am unfortunately starting to realize that probably won't be the case though.
Eat it Phil...
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Quote:
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They dont have much for pitching prospects but I would love to get Bogaerts to play next to Lindor.
I don't want to become the new Royals
If we are going to actually go out and sign some free agents and fill the holes instead of thinking they will fill themselves from within, then I am all for building onto this core and shooting for this "window" that management said we were playing for.
I am unfortunately starting to realize that probably won't be the case though.
regardless, I don't want to give up one of our few pitchers I expect to be pretty good and not get any good pitching prospects in return. I want MORE pitching, not less pitching in our system.
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regardless, I don't want to give up one of our few pitchers I expect to be pretty good and not get any good pitching prospects in return. I want MORE pitching, not less pitching in our system.
No I agree, our minors are lacking quality arms.
Eat it Phil...
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our minors are lacking quality arms.
Our majors are lacking quality arms....
Seriously, Derek Lowe need to be put on waivers today. Dont we have a young guy in single A who can give up 8 runs in 3 innings and cost less, and while there at it, toss Hafner on the waiver wire too...
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I agree on the pitching. For every position prospect of note, you need 2-3 pitchers simply because of wash-out factor.
It's hard to hurt yourself in the act of hitting. It's easy to hurt yourself in the act of pitching.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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toss Hafner on the waiver wire too...
he's still one of our top hitters. not only should we not dump him, but we can likely get him on a 1 or 2 year deal for $5mil/year (after declining his option). That is cheap for what he provides.
Ranks on the Indians this year:
#1 ISO
#2 SLG
#2 OPS & OPS+
#3 BB/K
#4 OBP
Choo is definitely better. You can make a case for Hafner being the 2nd best hitter though (or argue for Asdrubal, Brantley, Santana, or Kipnis - they all are bunched together).
Noone mentions wanting to dump any of those guys.
(biggest detraction on him is that he has struggled with RISP this year, however he was dominant with RISP in 2011. it's an artificial statistic that tends to even out over time)
But, I keep seeing people want to dump Hafner and we should know that would mean signing another Kotchman as a replacement. I just don't see how that actually helps the team.
#SavePronk
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I agree on the pitching. For every position prospect of note, you need 2-3 pitchers simply because of wash-out factor.
re-stated again as it's a hugely important point. it's why I mentioned the Royals above. they thought they could get by building a team with a bunch of high-profile hitters and less high-profile pitchers. well, they had their 2 best pitchers wash out and were left with no pitching.
the Twins are another great case-study. they were THE mid-market model to follow, but it all really came down to drafting & developing great pitching and flipping them for more pitching prospects when they got expensive. they stopped drafting them and the well dried up (Oakland and TB are now the models).
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Indians DFA Lowe Quote:
The Cleveland Indians designated Derek Lowe for assignment Wednesday night, one day after the veteran right-hander was shelled by Kansas City.
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That's hardly a surprise. He's has issues over the course of his last several starts.
It's kinda funny ..... his season started with a 0.00 ERA after his 1st start ...... he had an ERA in the 2's in the first 2 months ...... 3's-4's in June ..... 4's to 5's in July .... and gone.He had a really strong 1st 2 months ..... then the bottom started to fall out. He had 6 wins through his 1st 8 starts ...... then 2 more over his next 13.
Kinda hard to justify keeping him around under those circumstances.
I wonder who's on their way up.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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he's still one of our top hitters
No disrespect to you .....But thats not saying much,
5 Mil a year for a guy who is on the DL 2-3 times a year, and will finish with what 12-15 HR 60 RBI's and a .250 maybe .260 BA, To me that money can be used in better ways, If we have to go into next year with Hafner as our DH, were in trouble for a whole lotta what were seeing now.
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first, BA means very little for a hitter like him. OBP and SLG are what matter for Hafner. if he is getting on base and hitting for power, then he is doing what he is supposed to.
and, it's alot tougher to find hitters than you think. take a look at Detroit. after Miggy/Prince/Austin, their other 6 hitters are as bad as our bottom 3 hitters (obviously those 3 guys make up for it, but we're not getting a guy on that level to either).
even re-signing Hafner, we still need to fill the gaping hole of an abyss that is LF. I really want them to go after BJ Upton (of the non-elite OF FAs, he has the most upside).
the good news is that even with the arbitration raises, we should have a payroll today of ~$45mil (rough) for the start of 2013. we have shown that ~$65mil is the payroll we usually target for a season. that gives us some room to go after players (some of that will get eaten to re-sign and lockup some of our youngsters - hopefully Masterson and Kipnis).
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Dolan needs to sell this team as far as I'm concerned. They may have some hope for next year, but I'm guessing they trade Perez, Choo, and maybe even Cabrera. It will be another rebuild for sure, and by that time attendance may be 10k per game..
The job the general manager did this year, would get anyone fired by now.. All the moves were terrible and backfired every which way. They were playing bums like duncan and damon all damn year, yet they didn't give Carrera a chance until it's all but a formality. The guy played decent last year when he played. Sizemore doesn't even sniff the field, and it's a wonder they didn't sign hafner for another few years.
Top to bottom this is the worst organization in baseball.. The owner always looking to save a buck as his main objective. Until he sells, nothing will change.
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Man. Put em out to pasture. Anyone still just enjoying the ride?
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Did I just see this right? The Tribe gave up 10 runs in the second inning tonight? Sheesh. Sorry, but this must be said now: Poor old Tribe. 
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Yep. Most of them unearned, but runs is runs.
Including tonight, the Indians have given up 77 runs in their last 10 games.
Not poor old Tribe. They did this to themselves. Poor Tribe fans is more like it.
Edit: Make that 81 runs.
Last edited by Adam_P; 08/06/12 09:46 PM.
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I have never seen anything like the pitching staff regression we are witnessing. this doesn't include last nights game, but here are the FIP (basically pitcher controlled ERA) between 2011 and 2012 for each pitcher on the Tribe:
Masterson 3.28 - 4.02
Ubaldo 3.85 - 5.14
Tomlin 4.27 - 4.89
J.Gomez 4.12 - 5.14
Lowe 3.70 - 4.48
McAllister 3.37 - 3.75
every single pitcher is worse. if that isn't damning of the pitching coach, then I don't know what is. and yes, of the pitchers too.
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pitchers for 2013:
*Carrasco for 2013 (coming off injury & missed year)
*Ubaldo had remarkably consistent peripheral numbers over the last 4 seasons of pitching (slight bump up in 2010 of course). His pitching in 2012 bears no resemblance to those numbers. He is pitching significantly worse in nearly every single category. Strangely, this actually gives me some hope he could be in for a rebound year next year.
*Masterson is where I worry. 2011 is looking like the outlier on his career so far. I hope he rebounds and gets there again, but 2012 sure looks alot like 2009 and 2010 from a stats perspective.
best possibility for 2013 rotation (within reason):
Masterson regains 2011 form.
Ubaldo regains career-norm form.
McAllister builds on 2012
Carrasco comes back healthy and pitches good enough (with an innings cap)
I cannot talk myself into Tomlin, Carmona-Hernandez, J.Gomez, or any of our current other options for the SP5. Maybe that changes by the end of the year, but it sure seems like we need to get another SP and even then rely on significant improvement from our guys. And they are flat out quitting right now.
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People wondered why the attendance was bad? Probably because Cleveland fans aren't stupid.
This is garbage that fans shouldn't have to put up with.
What do we have to look forward to next year? Oh, and our minor league system is bare? Where are they putting their money and resources then? You figure a team that doesn't spend anything in FA would put resources into the minor league system. Who do we have to look forward to down there other than Asdrubal's replacement?
I'm sorry, I know there are people here who support the Dolans, but this is a joke. The Dolans need to sell this team (they won't) and Shapiro/Antonetti need to go. If this were the Browns they would have been fired years ago. So much for continuity huh?
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I think Antonetti's time might be growing short. When Shapiro was GM, there was bad drafting (waiting to see results of Bud Grant's placement in that role in 2008) but he traded his little heart out (even outside the Colon 1time bonanza) and kept us afloat with guys like Hafner, Choo, Asdrubal, Carlos Santana, etc. that he mined and obtained for peanuts.
that trading well has dried up since Antonetti took the reigns, Bud Grant focused on younger kids with bigger upsides (so even if he's a good drafter, it'll take time to see them), and the result is we have nothing to stem this tide.
with how Antonetti whiffed in FA at all his targets (Beltran, Willingham, Pena, Cuddyer, Cespedes, etc.) and how he has whiffed in trades (Ubaldo, Lowe) and he hasn't been able to stock the farm system with veteran trades (unless Neal really turns it on here), I do not see a reason that he should continue in his capacity.
------------------------
as far as the Dolans, I do think the well is poisoned to the point where they should look at selling the team just to help reduce the negativity around the Tribe. I do not think new owners would operate much differently (hopefully a little at first to buy some good will), but a new voice is needed from the top.
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I'm sorry, I know there are people here who support the Dolans, but this is a joke.
it's not so much that people support the Dolans but rather place much of the blame of the payroll disparity on MLB rather than the Dolans. That's all (he needs to be a larger voice in CBA negotations. he mentioned that they came to a deal but didn't fix the real issues when the CBA was finalized, but that was AFTER it was done).
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I don't support the Dolan's, I support the Indians.
I ride the train as long as it goes and it appears the train has not only stopped, but derailed near a small town and killed everyone in site after each one of it's rail cars carrying ninja throwing stars, knives, old rusty nails, grenades and drywall hammers exploded in a massive collision with the towns napalm manufacturing plant.
Season over. I'm glad football is starting up.
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I think Antonetti's time might be growing short. When Shapiro was GM, there was bad drafting (waiting to see results of Bud Grant's placement in that role in 2008) but he traded his little heart out (even outside the Colon 1time bonanza) and kept us afloat with guys like Hafner, Choo, Asdrubal, Carlos Santana, etc. that he mined and obtained for peanuts.
that trading well has dried up since Antonetti took the reigns, Bud Grant focused on younger kids with bigger upsides (so even if he's a good drafter, it'll take time to see them), and the result is we have nothing to stem this tide.
with how Antonetti whiffed in FA at all his targets (Beltran, Willingham, Pena, Cuddyer, Cespedes, etc.) and how he has whiffed in trades (Ubaldo, Lowe) and he hasn't been able to stock the farm system with veteran trades (unless Neal really turns it on here), I do not see a reason that he should continue in his capacity.
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as far as the Dolans, I do think the well is poisoned to the point where they should look at selling the team just to help reduce the negativity around the Tribe. I do not think new owners would operate much differently (hopefully a little at first to buy some good will), but a new voice is needed from the top.
Pretty much agree with everything you said there.
I don't "support the Dolans"  but I understand their plight. Getting a new owner isn't going the change things drastically, but at the very least, it might start getting fans to turn out, which in turn will drive up the revenue stream a bit to at least start making some investments.
It's funny out here. The Padres just got sold to a new investment team, and people are already talking like they are going to see a $50 million dollar investment in payroll. 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
I can't support any ownership group who's big move was Casey Kotchman. Casey freaking Kotchman.
They don't get it. You have to overspend if you want to bring in better talent. It's the way it works. They don't want to do that. Yes, the league is unbalanced. It's not fair to owners in towns like Cleveland, but they use that as a crutch.
We always heard "well they're gonna spend when the time is right, when this team is competing"
Brent freaking Lillibridge.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
It's not just "PR" either, if you don't think the Dolans are a problem, I don't know what else to tell you.
Although PR is definitely also an issue.
You have ownership who says they'll spend when they're competitive and don't, then turn it on the fans by saying they're a "ticket driven" franchise.
You have a president who had his "slow trade market" fiasco which blew up in his face.
Your closer rips the fans for enjoying football, and a franchise that's at least trying.
You have players who do absolutely nothing to promote themselves and the team during the offseason. Are any of these guys ever around in the fall and winter? Seems like as soon as the season is over we don't hear about them until Arizona.
Meanwhile, your football team, which is not very good, is at least making themselves available. Guys are supporting the other franchises. They are out and about in the offseason. They are promoting their team.
Even Kyrie Irving has been seen around Cleveland in the offseason.
Oh but hey, dollar dogs and Brent Lillibridge, yay.
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